Asperger's and bullies

[hedgehog]

I don't know if I really have classic Asperger's, but I clearly share a lot of the traits. I'd say I am at the extreme end of the syndrome because I've managed to learn to cover a lot of the traits and pass as NT. Looking back, I've been developing work-around techniques all my life. I can function well in most social situations even though I find them very exhausting.

What does cause me a lot of distress is that I can list specific situations at work or at social events when I was deliberately targeted and ostracized by people for no reason that I could ever fathom. It reminds me of the Simpson's episode in which Lisa determines that Nerds secrete a pheromone that triggers bullies to attack. Here's my question: have you ever experienced this as an adult? Do people who are clearly NT have the same experiences?

[idgiehkt]

1. good question

I don't know about NT's but I do know that this happens. I am not sure about physical bullying but there is psychological bullying that goes on. I have this happen in my life because I just never see it coming; I'm never accounting or allowing for the machinations of diabolical people and I don't have an innate 'need' like some of them do to damage and hurt others in acts of revenge. I've been going through a lot of it on this website lately and have been accused of things that just blow my mind. I've spent some time at www.wrongplanet.net and it helps tremendously to have the perspective of other aspies as we kind of 'look with wonder' sometimes, at how innately diabolical, conniving, deceptive, and vindictive some NT's can be. I've made 3 huge mistakes of association this year and because of that have been through some pretty painful episodes. Part of my problem is continuing to deny and account for my aspieness and accept that I am out of my league when it comes to dealing with certain types of NT's, meaning those closest to the end of the scale as having no conscience and no remorse for their actions, i.e. sociopaths or something similar to that. I've watched people just flat out lie, back-stab, spin, rationalize and do a whole bunch of other behaviors to cover their behinds that I could never sleep after doing...and that wouldn't occur to me in the first place. I have a pretty hard time comprehending it. I'm not saying aspies are perfect in anyway, but we don't seem to be as calculating and cunning as many NT's are. Someone on the wrongplanet.net forum described it as 'psychology of mind' or 'dog eat dog' thinking. I even forget that I am an aspie sometimes, until I go to a site like wrong planet or apsies for freedom, and I can literally feel the 'sameness' of being with 'my own kind' coming right through the computer at me.

I suppose with the physical stuff it could be a survival of the fittest mechanism, a neanderthal urge to wipe out the physically weak members. But a technologically advanced society needs the really brilliant HFA types to engineer this planet, so you would think that that would be an urge that would have been eliminated by now.

[hedgehog]

2. I find the notion that Aspies are low on empathy confusing.

According to my doctor, I'm not an Aspie, but boy do I match up with a lot of the characteristics. In terms of empathy, I may not always understand what is going on with other people, but if I know that something bad is happening, I have a lot of compassion. Having been on the short end of the stick more than once, I am especially sensitive to any sort of bullying even when it's aimed at someone else. People usually think of bullies as children or teens, but the worst ones I ever ran into were grown men and women.

[idgiehkt]

3. I don't get that either

I find it confusing as well. I am an extremely empathetic and compassionate person, probably to my own detriment. Re-reading that it sounds like boasting but really it isn't...in comparison with most of the people I've been around all my life I seem to have an 'awareness' of pain of other people and animals that other people don't key into so much. I don't know if it's because I'm female and we are trained to be that way, and I'm keyed into other frequencies, or what.

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. I'm not sure I'd describe empathy and compassion as synonyms

Once I explain to my son what I'm feeling, he's very compassionate, but unless I explain it to him, he is generally unable to understand (empathize) with them.

If you consider yourself highly attuned to the emotional state of others ('awareness of pain of other people') then I wonder what ASD traits you recognize in yourself?

[idgiehkt]

9. you made me think

and what I came up with was the awareness of what it feels like to be bullied, shunned, and excluded. Maybe I am honing in on those emotions because I have experienced what it feels like to be different or fail miserably at navigating social situations. I have to see it happening before me, but once I see it, I have incredible empathy, because I've experienced it myself. In fact, what I've found is that many times I've empathized with people who are actually, in fact, playing a victim role as their m.o., because of my empathy from having experienced these situations, and have projected my pain onto them and that has led me into painful situations with manipulative and mercenary people...I am actually currently working on toning down my codependency and tendency to jump in and try to rescue and learning how to discern true pain from the "Mr. or Mrs. Pitiful" act that has had me being taken advantage of in the past. There are plenty of 'emotional states' besides pain and hurt, though, and Aspergers is about more than just how in and out of tune people tend to be with others. I am horrible at seeing manipulation or social maneuvering, don't understand it, can't do it, and get tripped up by it time and time again. As far as aspie traits go, there are links posted in this forum listing the criteria.

[eridani]

4. Are they maybe confusing problems with reading body language--

--with empathy? I'm pretty sensitive to pain, particularly from bullying, but I have problems with the subtler varieties of body language.

[hedgehog]

5. That's what I'm wondering

Maybe there are Asperger's and Autism people who don't understand when other people are in pain; I don't know enough to comment on that. I just know that the people who I know who show Asperger traits must study other people so carefully that they are intensely aware of injustice and other people's pain. Maybe it's because people are unable to mask pain as well as other feelings.

[eridani]

6. One thing I know for sure-

--not being able to read body language signs of pain is waythehell different from not caring if others are in pain.

[hedgehog]

8. Exactly . I have one daughter who became an outsider

because she saw how most of the 10 year old girls in her class treated another kid. She had been very trusting and open up until then. Watching how these girls spoke to the other girl in person and trashed her the minute she was out of sight made her incapable of socializing with them. I suppose that that's part of the not being able to see shades of gray that supposedly characterizes Asperger's behavior.

[idgiehkt]

11. yes, girls can be horrendous to each other.

Looking back I honest to god do not know how I navigated through my adolescence and childhood. I think what saved me is that I was almost monosyllabic throughout most of grade school. I spoke very little. I was always referred to as 'quiet' and 'shy' althought I think it was more accurate to say that I was just 'reserved' and didn't care to contribute to what was going on around me that much. But I know what you mean...and if you have a sensitivity to bullying and the victims of it they can really make you pay for it. My heart goes out to your daughter and that is a fine point to parse. For instance, I would be the same way...I would be able to empathize and identify with the bullied girl, absolutely, but I wouldn't be able to comprehend or understand at all the behavior of the bullies, my expected role in the bullying, and the consequences of not partaking in it and for defending the bullied child (i.e. pointing out the transgressions of the bullies and placing the guilt that is buried in their conciences in plain view). I would not be able at all to even perceive those subtle social requirements, and I would 'do the right thing' and be made to pay for it. It is eerily similar to the situation I am going through currently as an adult, chillingly so. Wow.

[idgiehkt]

10. that is a beautiful post

thank you. :hug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

12. You've touched on one of my pet peeves.

ASD individuals are portrayed in the MSM as being emotionless, without compassion, and self-absorbed. Given that limited information it is easy to conclude that people with ASD are not unlike Ted Bundy.

Being unable to read minds is not the same thing as being amoral or narcissistic. Once people with ASD understand the state of mind of others, they're as capable of empathy and compassion as anyone. Better, in my experience.

In fact, I marvel at my son's capacity (and desire) for modifying his behavior to avoid hurting the feelings of others, provided one makes him understand how his actions cause others to feel. He wouldn't hurt a fly - if he understands that they fly is being hurt.

[Kajsa]

14. Thank you, Lumberjack.

You have described my son, also.

He may need more time and explanation of a situation
before the connection is made ( sometimes not),
but once he understands that someone is in pain, and/or
feelings are hurt he goes out of his way to help them.

Many times, he catches someone's pain before the
rest of us do. Explain that, MSM!

It is very unfair the way the MSM has portrayed the
stereotype of the Rain Man as being the norm with
Aspies/Autistics. It's just not true!!

Thanks for bringing this to light!

:hi:

[spooky3]

18. I know that my nephew who has Asp/Autism

is one of the sweetest and most capable people when it comes to figuring out how others feel at times. There have been occasions when he has politely tried to point out to my sister, who prides herself on sensitivity, when others do not seem to want to do what she suggests and I am sure if he lived with me, he would have to perform this useful function from time to time as well! He's in his 20s and it makes me very sad that he has so much difficulty finding full time employment and that he is shunned by others his age socially. He would never knowingly harm another human being.

[sam sarrha]

17. similar thing here, i am not supposed to have good concentration, but i have a 'Fascination' with th...

parts of things.. i can build electronic circuit boards at ML std2000a military standards 12 hours straight and not look up, but i cant read a book for 5 minutes, unless it is technical material or by a Visual author, like the People of the Wolf series by kathleen O'Neil and michael gear, i read 16 of them..

I have an IQ of 164 but am functionally illiterate, i have good verbal skills, i worked very hard when i was younger, i stoled the higher classes books when i was in the first grade, especially science books and took them home, them took them back.

as for compassion, i accept things as they are.. when i found Tibetan Buddhism it was like coming home from a long journey and being welcomed home.. i have taken the Bodhisattva vows, i also practice some Pure Land Buddhism, mostly some Amataba chants and readings.

meditation is the best thing that has happened to me, it has really given me focus, and awareness of the moment and an objective view of what is happening. i have a lot of Pema Chodron teachings.. when things fall apart, dont get hooked, a lot of here Tonglen teachings, all based on developing compassion.

[Deja Q]

13. I could speak volumes with your second paragraph... as an adult too.

And, yes, it's affected my life and, no, people are more keen on demanding everybody lives like them (a trait of which is common to everybody, in one form or another).

:hug:

(apart from the Lisa Simpson thing, which of that episode I thought it was merely... very imaginative.)

[ikojo]

15. I was bullied from second grade to my sophomore year

in high school. Even after the full on bullying stopped I was never part of a group. I pretty much hung around with the nerdy types who were into D&D and stuff like that.

I have experienced bullying at the workplace. Some of my co-workers saw it as their mission in life to encourage me to dress more like a typical female and said stuff about my clothes and such. This was the mid 90s. I pretty much just wore a polo type shirt and a pair of pants to work and was told it was too manly. Interesting that once I started wearing stirrup pants (frightening) and the same polo or button down shirts all was well.

I've never felt at home in the muggle or mundane world. About the only place I totally felt free was at a science fiction convention. There was a space populated by others who were as obsessed as I was with a particular subject, be it Star Wars, Star Trek or Dr Who. Folks who didn't think it strange to walk around wearing a VERY long scarf in 100 degree St Louis heat.

[sam sarrha]

16. i'm 58 and being bullied at work by a Narcissistic sociopath.. kiss up kick down, she is not good at

what she does, first time doing technical work, i am lots older and worked at Boeing Space and Communications.. etc.. she shits on me all the time, lies to the boss, canoodles him all the time, she laughs manically, or maniacally.. hard to say.. she almost got me fired, i thing the boss knows she lied,, but he is totally captivated by her.. and she talks back to him and is rude and tells him what to do.

she makes mistakes and blames them on me... she builds a different part.. and she puts it together wrong.. just careless crap, and BLAMES me a rivet isn't in the right place or is missing,

she makes going to work HELL. always messing with me.

[ThatsMyBarack]

19. As an Aspie, I find it hard to "let go" of experiences of being bullied,....

....whether it happened to me as a child or as an adult.

When I was in eighth grade, I was the bullying target for the entire school (jr. high) to pick on. People I didn't know would walk past me and call me "Geek", "Wally", "Ugly", etc. Whenever I tried to tell an adult (including my own parents) about it, they would suggest, "You brought it on yourself." It was all too painful for me to simply ignore.

Even today, I can never seem to let go of bullying instances. Just today, I found two nasty comments in response to my skating videos on YouTube: "How did you ever pass your Gold Freeskate test? YOU SUCK!" and, "I was gonna use that music for MY program! What's your name? I'LL SUE!" Even though it was easy to simply delete the comments and block the YouTube user, those comments will forever haunt me.

[hunter]

20. I was very reactive as a kid...

... flick me in the ear and I'd take a swing at you. Good thing I stopped while I was still a minor, because as an adult it's called assault.

Unfortunately I was also clumsy, so I was as likely to miss as to hit an antagonist.

I was always the last picked for team sports. Even one of my buddies who had Down syndrome and Coke-bottle glasses would get picked before me, because he was nice, and I was mean and sometimes threw rocks at people who tormented me.

In Junior High I was a skinny stick-boy just the right size to stuff into a locker or trash can. All throughout junior high and high school the most common taunt I heard was "queer bait" as in, "Get out of my way, queer bait."

It wasn't all hell, I had some friends among the odd kids; kids who weren't quite all there for some reason -- nerds, geeks, kids uncertain about their sexuality, a few protective jocks who were raised right and sensitive to injustice -- but overall, I hated junior high and high school.

At some point, I don't know how or why, maybe the scar tissue got thick enough, I became untauntable. I don't think this was entirely a good thing, but the bullies had pretty much backed off by the time I graduated from high school.

One of the last times I heard "Get out of my way, queer bait" in school, I whispered back "You want me," and got beat up for it, but it was sort of empowering. Still, I wouldn't recommend that sort of behavior -- a guy could get hurt.

Mostly these days I see attempts at bullying as some sort of random noise. The best thing to do is simply ignore it, but maybe that's just my personality -- getting bullied doesn't seem to be the sort of hurt that builds up in me until it bursts out in some explosion. But sometimes bullying is so odious that you have to deal with it, and I always try to do that with a very cold sense of intellectual detachment. If I'm getting bullied in a work situation (which hasn't happened to me in many years) I build up my case against the bully quietly, figure out who has the power and the inclination to do something about it, and then drop the hammer swiftly. I've had the satisfaction of getting bullies fired, and been praised by coworkers for that.

On the internet it's just words. I know it's more than that, that words can cut to the bone, but if you imagine the pipsqueaks who say hateful things as utterly inconsequential noisemakers of some sort, like maybe you are walking in your house in the dark, and you step on your dog's saliva soaked squeaky toy with bare feet, well it's startling, it's very unpleasant, but it's not the kind of unpleasant experience that stays with you.

Good luck to you, life's an adventure, and get some help from a professional if there are too many things "forever" haunting you and dragging you down.

[goddess40]

21. Sorry but your parent's were jerks - have they ever apologized?

and your teachers were bullies who should have been fired. I'm so sorry the adults in you life failed you and I hope eventually you can move on.

If you can get some therapy do go and don't be afraid to fire a therapist that tells you to simply get over it. Maybe a therapist could help you organize a support group for bully victims - you are not alone. How about getting active in your town to establish a comprehensive anti-bullying program. Also if I were you I'd write to the schools you attended and let them know what a hell on earth you had while attended their schools and ask what they've done to remedy it. Another place to try to get bullying addressed is with your state government and you state department of instruction.

Most importantly read and research bullying.
The Bully, the Bullied, and the Bystander: From Preschool to High School--How Parents and Teachers Can Help Break the Cycle of Violence by Barbara Coloroso - this is the best book on bullying, I think if you read just this book it will make you feel better.

School Bullying: Tools for Avoiding Harm and Liability
by Mary Jo McGrath

Bullying in Secondary Schools: What It Looks Like and How To Manage It (PCP Professional)
by Keith Sullivan

Bullying in Schools: How Successful Can Interventions Be?
by Peter K. Smith

Just by reading you can get reassurance that it wasn't your fault and if you can find a way to stop it from happening to someone else it will also make you feel better.

Both of my son's have autism spectrum disorders, one is NLD and the other asperger's, and we have fought with the schools all the way through. I'm now on the school board and hope to have a comprehensive anti-bullying program in place by the time my term is up.

[TrogL]

22. Join the club

Most hard-core socializers are bullies at heart. They resent that they can't ping off you to get their socialization fix.