Mr. Skinner I would like to pick a fight with you

[grantcart]

Frankly you have to wonder why he bothers.

Establishing a site where even completely internet clumsy folks like me (I still can't figure out Daily Kos) can easily enter and join a free spirited discussion about issues concerning the Democratic Party and in particular the progressive wing seems like it should be simple enough.

Then again as Will Rogers said, "I am not a member of an organized political party, I am a Democrat".

Its not simple however. We fight about everything. We fight about whether a particular opinion should even warrant FUCKING CAPITAL LETTERS. We fight over strategy. We fight over tactics. We fight over priorities and personalities. We take polls and fight about the polls. Threads talking about fighting are fought over.

We fight over wars, over answers to poverty, over the rape of the earth and how to stop coddling corporate interests in a system that has legalized bribery. We fight about our friends, our enemies and the people on TV who comment on both.

The reason we fight is because we are people who feel passionately and think deeply about serious problems. We are the people who smash on keys in anger because we feel the pain of others, whether they are the poor farmer in Afghanistan, the innocent detainee in Gitmo, the homeless vet on the street, the hardworking worker who wants union representation and the family that is on the precipice of total destruction because of a medical emergency.

And just as we are about to rip each other apart the Republicans will offer up a Joe Barton to remind us just how completely insane our opposition is. With the world heading toward a disaster that will do incalculable harm to an Ocean that is sick and being pumped with CO2 from the atmosphere the Republicans remind us that they don't care about the people, the planet, the animals, the science or anything else but their own immediate pocket books.

So to keep us from absolutely ripping each other to shreds Mr. Skinner has instituted some basic rules. Be civil. Enter into discussions with the idea of discussion and not disrupting. Seems simple and yet because we are Democrats it is a permanent state of conflagration. In order to keep it functioning Moderators and Administrators are given the thankless task of enforcing rules and trying to keep a foundation of civility as the basic currency in our "discussions".

Recently a number of people who have taken a particularly harsh tact against the President have been shown the door. They were not shown the door because they were against the President but because they violated the rules.

But I am not happy that they are gone. Some I had developed personal relationships with.

But it goes beyond that. They are allies. Even in our disagreement we still face a more implacable foe, an opponent who has become so partisan that they are willing to make disasters a political game. They want to apologize for a President who has just saved people 20 years of litigation to get some substantial and immediate financial relief. They start wars, shill for corporations, risk global environmental destruction, and propagate a religion that has the depth of "Santa Clause".

So I wish they hadn't broken the rules and they were still here even as they rake me over the flames.

So thanks for enforcing the rules, Mr. Skinner and the moderators.

Now I wold like to pick a fight with you, Mr. Skinner, because after all, we are Democrats.

[berni_mccoy]

1. Words of wisdom. However, I will disagree with you on one point...

I am not sad that some of them are gone. I am sad about some, but not about others. Those who choose to label us as cheerleaders and dehumanize us... I doubt very seriously if they are true liberals or progressives. Some would seek to do to Obama what was done to Carter. And I believe unless we continue to defend and put out the facts that counter the spin and hyperbole, that those divisions that were created during the primaries will continue to fester like infected wounds. Truth is the antibiotic here. If we stick to the truth to shut down the spin, then we shall prevail.

[madfloridian]

2. "doubt very seriously if they are true liberals or progressives."

See, that's the problem right there.

It is not your place to play God and judge the rest of us.

Truth is what many of us seek.

[Fire1]

5. It doesn't sound like "judgement" on his part imo, just opinion

based on observation. I don't consider them progressive either, just "fauxgressive."

[madfloridian]

6. More serious judging there.

That kind of talk is not healthy for a party.

[berni_mccoy]

19. Thanks for taking my statement out of context.

A true liberal would not choose to label a supporter as a Cheerleader or try to dehumanize someone.

[POAS]

23. Whether or not they are "liberals"

is beside the point.

They violated the rules established by the founders of this forum. Many, if not most or all, that are no longer welcome here did so repeatedly. Do borrow the words of another, they were disruptors.

I enjoy reading and sometimes engaging in healthy debate. But GD and GD:P had deteriorated to the point where discussion no longer became a possibility. If I have any difference with Skinner is that the "discussion" part of "discussion forum" was allowed to deteriorate too far before sever action was taken. As I believe is the case with Obama I think Skinner and others were acting behind the scenes to calm the waters. For their efforts and for the finality of their actions I thank them.

As someone who has had my own words taken down on occasion I tried to learn ti stay within the rules. The fact that others could not discipline their own words and actions will bring no sympathy from me.

[treestar]

47. They are willing to do that

It is almost funny. Right wingers call me a socialist yet I come hear to find I do not deserve the name of "liberal" or "progressive." And I was told that here on DU. I am not a liberal. :rofl:

The left is perfectly willing to play god and be judgmental - they can get off their high horse about that. Their tolerance for different opinions ain't so hot, either.

[Cary]

55. Over the past year I have learned, much to my chagrin, that. . . .

many liberals are as ignorant, mean-spirited, and downright stupid as "consevatives".

This was quite a kick in the pants for me. I thought we were better and therefore we deserved to be in power, and I erred in thinking that our re-emergence was the end of "conservatives" in our lifetime.

Silly me.

[HughMoran]

59. I hate to do this

...as I'm generally not a negative person, but I agree - and it's been a real eye opener for me.

[DevonRex]

66. Why are you here? nt

[grantcart]

4. nobody can dehumanize you. Those that respond with Truth and no malice

give people who are deceptive and vindictive a platform to reveal themselves.

[berni_mccoy]

20. Thanks grant. Your words...

always seem to bring me some peace of mind.

Again, thank you.

[Kahuna]

74. ....

:applause:

[Uzybone]

3. not all were liberals/allies, some were plain old internet disruptors

who get their jollies from trying to aggravate people on message boards. No board can survive long if it allows losers like that to post on it.

The actual liberals who care about issues are still here. Not scurrying from board to board posting smears.

[Fire1]

8. Ditto. n/t

[Number23]

16. I'm with you, Uzy

And it seriously cracks me up that there are sites literally devoted to talking about posters here. If that is not the very defintion of something that is both mind-numbingly sad and laughable at the same time I don't know what is.

A few folks spend so much time talking about/fixating on posters here, and are apparently unable to comprehend that no one here talks, cares or thinks about them outside of this site, but somehow I'm supposed to believe that they have a grasp on policy issues? Yeah, umm... okay.

[POAS]

24. +1 n/t

[Cha]

26. Thanks for the

clarity, Uzy.

No doubt some Libs got TS but that's not all.

[firedupdem]

32. +1000 n/t

[Tarheel_Dem]

57. Thank you Uzy. Perfectly stated. (nt)

[Born_A_Truman]

7. I am a Democrat

Coming to DU, I never expected to have a litmus test applied as to if I'm a leftist, progressive, liberal, whatever.

I support Obama and I feel I should be able to do so on DU.

[Robb]

9. Meh. This "intramural" stuff is just background noise.

Different names but the same kind of people. Consider how many "sites which shall not be named" we had to remember not to name over the years. They all fade away, as noise tends to. And the work goes on. :shrug:

[Lindsey]

10. I completely agree w/Born a Truman, I am a Democrat and this

is Democratic Underground. I'm blown away that DU has become what its become.:cry:

[Uzybone]

14. "They all fade away, as noise tends to"

+100000

[CBR]

18. Seems to be obsessive noise.

Godwin's law in full effect.

[FrenchieCat]

11. Who's gone?

I'll take a PM! :)

[quiet.american]

12. Leave it to you, Frenchie, to ask the most important question! :)

Good to see you. :hi:

[FrenchieCat]

34. I'm catching up!

I went to see my daughter in Saint Louis. What a great place!

They just moved into a house they bought (they get the home credit! yeah!)

So No Internet, not Television (they hadn't gotten their Direct TV hooked up yet,
and even if they had, they wouldn't let me watch politics!) Just a lot of painting!



:hi:

[grantcart]

38. A substantial number, many who were constantly attacking BOG

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8584989

[Jennicut]

42. Wow. Only one person on that list that I ever had to put on ignore.

Name begins with an "S". Very strange one to try and follow and understand.

I guess attacking people for no reason was enough.

[treestar]

48. Consistently negative

never had a good thing to say about the Democrats.

[madfloridian]

17. A lot of very good and decent posters are gone.

[Political Tiger]

21. Too bad they couldn't follow the rules like the rest of us. n/t

[POAS]

25. +1

I expressed a similar though much less succinct opinion upstream.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[akbacchus_BC]

71. I know and it is sad but like Skinner says, they asked to be banned,

and am not about to question why as this is his house and we have to respect the Admins rules.

[Political Tiger]

22. I'm curious too

I could take them off my ignore list to make room for more!

[yowzayowzayowza]

13. I'm not happy they couldnt comport themselves within the rules either, but,...

despite the CTs in some quarters, their fate was decided by a CONSENSUS of moderation and admin:

How the moderators do their job

The moderators of Democratic Underground enforce the rules based on consensus. Whenever a moderator takes action, they are required to first get a consensus from the available moderators that action is necessary and appropriate. What constitutes a consensus varies based on the situation. If a rule violation is obvious, then action only requires a second opinion from one other moderator. But if a situation is unclear, highly subjective, or likely to be controversial, then the opinions of many moderators are required. Whatever the situation, one moderator has the power to veto any enforcement action.

Were they to make peace with admin and return with a new and improved understanding of the rules, I'd welcome them back. Itz happened many times before, but I certainly don't miss the never-ending chorus of "broad-brush smears against Democrats or the Democratic Party." There are hundreds of House Bills bottled up by the Senate that prove the 'Dems are corporatists/fascists' rhetoric is not legitimate criticism by any stretch of the imagination.

[demtenjeep]

15. I would just like a statement from Skinner

and then maybe those of us who STILL support this president would feel more welcome

[POAS]

27. I believe Skinner made a brief

statement when he personally locked a thread about those that left either voluntarily or were tombstoned. Sorry I don't have that thread bookmarked but you can probably search it out easily enough.

[POAS]

30. Here's the link! n/t

[Cha]

44. Where's

the link? :)

[POAS]

46. Old timers set in

fortunately somebody else posted it!

[Cha]

53. Thanks, I did find the link..

Unfreakingbelievable but I do have many on Ignore and I can delete them now.

[POAS]

54. I emptied mine but

now filling it back up again

[WeDidIt]

28. As I discovered in a thread today

Occasionally, the best tack you can take is to state why you rise in opposition to a certain belief set and explain that you are finished discussing the issue.

Then regardless of the replies afgterwards, let it go. The argument went as far as it could and could go no longer no matter what without that discussion breaking down into nastiness.

I've learned to take my cues from my opponents. There is a subtle shift from honest debate to baiting, and when that occurs, it is time to move on and simply let it go.

Many times that shift is the first response but on occasion, the debate can take many rounds before the shift occurs. When that shift occurs, though, the die is cast and it is time to move on.

[POAS]

31. +1 n/t

[goclark]

37. We need Respect around here

All the name calling is really not necessary,
The Bully Stuff doesn't work either -- no matter what side of the issue is being addressed.

IMO, Lay out the fact
State your position clearly -- that can be done without putting down others.

I respect a good debate but when I hear the name calling, it speaks more as a negative toward the CALLER/

Can't we all get along - all we need is RESPECT.

[madfloridian]

33. "they are allies"

Grantcart said:

"They are allies. Even in our disagreement we still face a more implacable foe, an opponent who has become so partisan that they are willing to make disasters a political game."

Yes, even those of us who speak out about issues and express concern over some of the policies....we are your allies.

I speak out on two major topics in which I believe this administration is failing....education and women's rights.

Women's rights...better than the Republicans, but not much better.

Education...just the same.

The anger toward people who worked so hard in 2008 and feel it important to question....is causing upset that builds in everyone.

The us/them mindset is not good.

[NJmaverick]

35. "Women's rights...better than the Republicans, but not much better.""

Have you ever considered that making comments like that one, when the President has doubled and is in the process tripling women's representation on the Supreme Court is exactly the sort of thing that generates the anger you talk about? You know it's one thing to say you have an issue with specific policy, it's another to make sweeping generalizations that conflict with such evidence. I also think the criticism would be more palatable if it was balanced with at least some supportive comments. It's quite understandable to not agree with the President on everything. However to be only critical and not even fair in those negative assessments, is only going to generate angst and animosity.
You know if I went on a teacher's message board and did nothing but criticize teacher's in every way imaginable, go out of my way to find negative articles and editorials against teachers to post, I am thinking that I would probably get a lot of people angry (If I even lasted that long). By the same token, I would venture to say that the majority of people who joined the Democratic Underground did so in part because they were Democrats and they thought they were going to be joining up with like minded individuals. For the longest time there were statements talking about how DU was a place to get away from the unfair and constant attacks Democrats suffer in the MSM and other places on the web.
Lately DU has become even worse than the MSM when it comes to attacking Democrats and our President. For years I took money I would otherwise have donated to the DNC, DCC, DSC or individual Dems and donated it to DU feeling that DU was also working toward the same thing, so it was all good. For years I used to use DU as an information clearing house and think tank to get information when arguing with right wingers and republicans (who specialize in misinformation and outright lies). Those days are but a distant memories. More often than not a visit to DU leaves me angry and disgusted by sheer volume attacks, the lack of balance and often the vitriol of the attacks on the Dems and our President.
You know if you were willing to meet the supporters of the Dems and the President halfway, I think you would find most of us are more than reasonable and would reciprocate.

[Born_A_Truman]

39. Agree...

By the same token, I would venture to say that the majority of people who joined the Democratic Underground did so in part because they were Democrats and they thought they were going to be joining up with like minded individuals. For the longest time there were statements talking about how DU was a place to get away from the unfair and constant attacks Democrats suffer in the MSM and other places on the web.
Lately DU has become even worse than the MSM when it comes to attacking Democrats and our President.

Not even lately, I was shocked that it started election night! My jaw dropped.

[firedupdem]

43. Excellent post NJmaverick. n/t

[treestar]

51. Great post!

[Cha]

52. Thank you, Maverick..dead on post. nt

[HughMoran]

56. Thank you for stating what I was thinking

Meet me halfway and fall out of your seat at how cynical and critical I can be. Keep telling me that all Democrats are criminals and no better than Republicans, we're going to disagree in a big way.

[Tarheel_Dem]

58. This needs it's own thread. I wish it could be posted in GD. I'm really

surprised to see the poster you're responding to, in this particular forum. But maybe she's extending an olive branch?

[madfloridian]

61. The poster you refer to, me....IS an Obama supporter.

I always have been. We supported him financially and working door to door. We worked hard for his campaign.

I question policy I think is potentially harmful to our country.

[NJmaverick]

63. It would be much nicer if you spoke TO us instead of AT us

you don't seem to have any interest in actually listening to anything we have to say, rather you only want to lecture us. What do you really think that will accomplish. I reached out to you and tried to talk to you. I answered, what now appear to be rhetorical questions. If you want reduce the anger and make things better it would be achieved through 2 way dialog not you telling us what you think of us and what we feel.

[DevonRex]

67. That poster does not belong here, IMO.

What say you?

[akbacchus_BC]

68. Devon, with all due respect, Madfloridian is one of us. She is very

vocal about the education system and I would love for her to be here rather than leave. She brings us much needed information on the Education system in the US? What do you think?

[akbacchus_BC]

72. Great post, thank you! And we sure are keeping it civil!

[Cary]

77. What a truly excellent post NJ.

I have to think that the real reason for the problem is that our erstwhile allies want conflict with us.

Occam's Razor and all that. . .

The same is true with "conservatives". I find it impossible these days to have a civil discussion with "conservatives" and the only logical conclusion is that they hate "Liberals" so much that it is impossible for them to have a discussion with a liberal without devolving into some variation of "you suck".

But thank you for the moment of clarity.

[madfloridian]

36. And another thing, why do you assume we are not supporters of Obama?

that's what I can't figure.

[NJmaverick]

40. If you want to know how and why we feel the way we do

read post number 35. I think I laid everything out pretty well.

[POAS]

41. Yes you did!

two words come to mind however:

Deaf ears.

[treestar]

50. Some of those posters are against every single thing he does

They go out and look for things to misinterpret or interpret in a strained way to claim he is not for the people but for corporations.

every speech is either crappy or just a speech.

Come on. You can't be a supporter of anything you say nothing positive about.

[treestar]

49. They are not allies

They act as if the implacable foe does not exist.

With friends like that, who'd need freepers?

[madfloridian]

60. So you are saying you don't need the people who speak out

against policies that are wrong.

That's an amazing statement, quite frankly.

[HughMoran]

62. Do you know what a strawman is?

Your statement is ludicrous and you should be embarrassed in posting it.

(hint, you are NOT, I repeat NOT any more representative of who 'speaks out' than anybody else here. You come across as bitter and arrogant when you post stuff like this.)

[NJmaverick]

64. Please read post 63

[DevonRex]

65. Why are you posting in our group?

:shrug:

[akbacchus_BC]

70. Why can't Mad post here? Just asking!

[akbacchus_BC]

73. You mean with friends like them who needs enemies? No matter

what President Obama accomplishes it is never good enough for a segment of the American population. Poor President, he between a rock and an effing hardstone. We need to cover his back even though it is on the internet!

Have to say that he inherited shit but people want a rose garden after 16 months!

Makes me wonder if people on here are for real!

[Blue_Roses]

45. wow...

there are no words other than awesome post!

[akbacchus_BC]

69. Grant, you are being facetious, LOL. Do not ever pick a fight with

Skinner, LOL. You will lose.

How are you my friend?

[grantcart]

76. I am fine thank you

Notice I said that I would like to pick a fight with Skinner but actually I never do.

He just refuses to give me the satisfaction of doing anything I strongly disagree with.

[cliffordu]

75. Feh.

:rofl: