I think I'm out of touch

[POAS]

I see labels being thrown around the MSM, blogs and message that I thought I understood but maybe my understanding is out of date.

Maybe someone can explain the current meanings after I use my own experience to try and explain my understanding.

I was raised in a pro union, pro FDR family that struggled through the depression and WWII to emerge as proud Democrats. We supported Eisenhower, he was our President even though we disagreed with him on many issues. Eisenhower, although a military man attempted to warn us about the "military-industrial complex". A Republican did that! Eisenhower sent troops to Little Rock to enforce integration and "avoid anarchy" as the NYTimes put it. A Republican did that!

My family lived in an all white suburb but supported MLK and the civil rights struggle. I personally came to realize that my "ideal" society would be a socialist one. But I am also a realist and feel that Progressive implies making progress and that progress is rarely achieved in leaps but rather in incremental steps.

So to me it is not inconsistent to be at the same time an incrementalist, a socialist, a liberal, a centrist, a Democrat or even a conservative depending on a particular issue and on an individual's experiences in life.

So tell me friends why I see Liberal differentiated from Democrat? DLC as anti Democratic Party and/or Liberal? Wanting incremental change as furtherance of "appeasement"? I could use more examples but I'm sure the point has been made and I really don't understand why these distinctions are made now and not just in the context of DU threads but in the left wing community in general?

Democrats have always scrapped within the party but always came together. It feels different now.

[Peacetrain]

1. I think we have been down this road before.. I really do

But with the internet connections we have, facebook etc.. we just beat up on each other so much, that the wounds maybe a lot deeper than they used to be.

We got back from vacation, and I have been catching up and reading ops etc.. and POAS, we are fighting with each other more than we are fighting about principles.

Things have just gotten very personal.

I don't know what we will do to fix that... New media has moved us into a new reality..

[POAS]

2. Maybe that's it, maybe it is

about personality and personal attack rather than principles. It also seems that some, sometimes myself included, conflate personality with a certain principle either positively or negatively. Thus what one perceives as a attack on a principle is inferred to be an attack on a personality.


Edited to add: Welcome back PeaceTrain, hope your well rested.

[Peacetrain]

4. Good to be back POAS.. good to be back..

I have to work this afternoon unfortunately.. I am not ready for that again. ;)

Yep I know what you are saying.. I think we all fall victim to that.. myself included.

[POAS]

7. Going back to work?

Sorry I can no longer relate....well actually I'm not sorry...:evilgrin:

[NJmaverick]

3. Many of the labels being applied are being misapplied

sometimes out of convenience, sometimes to lend false credibility to a position, other times it's to mis-frame an issue in a manner that is advantageous to the ones doing the labeling.

Frankly little good comes from the use of labels.

[POAS]

5. I agree with that in priciple

but labels also have use, except when misapplied. It is helpful for me, as an example, to self identify as a socialist because it sets me into a particular political spectrum. That should tell people where I'm coming from in a political discussion and I proudly wear that label.

It seems currently labels are used to disparage rather than define. I loathe that use of labels for purposes such as that.

[NJmaverick]

6. Self applied labels are better than those applied by others

I would agree with that.

[POAS]

8. Even labels applied by others can be ok

if it is not intended to be disparaging. If, as a self identified socialist, I call another a socialist it probably is not intended to insult but, perhaps, as a way of expressing a political kinship.

[HughMoran]

9. You have it exactly right

My families story is very similar to yours (minus the Eisenhower support.)

"Common purpose" is what's missing IMO. Part of that is the fault of today's disintegrated internet based 'every person for him/herself" society, part of it is simply a lack an event/struggle that unifies us, the President gets some of the blame too, Congress - well, they're always like this so nothing new there - oh, and DU does not represent a 'typical' cross-section of Democrats as you've probably figured out by now. I don't know how to get people out of their funk - perhaps an asteroid will hit the earth and destroy 1/2 of the US - that would certainly unify people - lol. Don't expect to find happiness on DU. And don't expect DU to ever seem 'logical', though a common cause might help to unify us. I thought fending off the Republicans threats to take over Congress would be motivating, but apparently Democrats are not the answer for many - which sucks in many ways since there is not a viable alternative at this point. As the election approaches, I do expect some 'coming together', we'll see if it's indeed 'different' now as this will be the first major election since having a Democratic President & Congress. Here's hoping we still have noses :)

[POAS]

11. Thanks for your kind reply

I'm long past expecting to find "happiness" on DU. I'll settle for civility however. Attacks, rumors of attacks, fear of attacks and the such seem to have dominated lately. As one with a partial view of recent goings on I don't want to characterize further except to say that I'm hopeful the new set of rules will modify that somewhat.

Thanks again.

poas

[ismnotwasm]

10. Part of it is the shear volume of information

Any topic, but specifically very controversial topics (I/P comes to mind)have many web sites out there to promote an idea, an 'agenda' a POV. Some use selective facts or selective interpretation of facts. Some are honestly passionate, and being very passionate tend toward the insensitive. Some make shit up. And sometimes, the very, very important history behind any given present situation is left out of debate or discussion.

It's my belief, that while politics has always thrived on polarization, it's rarely reached the level of malignancy as it did during the Bush administration. The communication tools simply weren't there. Bush and co. in while incompetent government administrates, were very good at playing 'us against them'. And it's in this pool we're all splashing around in, If you'll pardon the metaphor. (It still has bush pee in it-- Eww) Our lovely media makes a lot of money on this polarization as well. I never forget the media.

And speaking of information, people who formally didn't have a effective way of communication, like Socialists, now do, they can meet and talk and figure things out, organize better. Since (and this is true; I don't care what anybody says) Democrats are the "Big Tent" party, we have a lot of people from a lot of different directions. We are divided to a certain point, but I don't think it has to be to the point it has been lately. I think we can find a common ground as Democrats, even marginal Democrats, like myself. I think we can become stronger, and more effective if we continually identify the true 'enemy' those conservatives who resist all progressive change, who want religion to be a guiding force in government, who think corporations will regulate themselves because they're nice folk, who think labor organizations interferes with profit, who want to continually feed misinformation out of fear of losing power. Anyone can add to that list.

[POAS]

12. I like your list

and your identification the common foe of having our country make "progress" as opposed to reverting back to the "bad old days" that some seem to revel in.

One has to wonder (at least this one does) how much of the divisiveness on our side today is born of frustration and how much from incitement by outside forces. The old adage still applies, "divide and conquer"!

[Number23]

13. Brilliant in its simple truth

So to me it is not inconsistent to be at the same time an incrementalist, a socialist, a liberal, a centrist, a Democrat or even a conservative depending on a particular issue and on an individual's experiences in life.

And you will find that most intelligent, well-rounded, well-informed, non-zealots who are able to comprehend and analyze complex issues feel exactly the same way.

Thank you for this.

[POAS]

14. Thanks....your kind!

I'm really struggling to understand what is different today, or if in fact it isn't different and I'm just looking at it with a different perspective.

My perception is that the polarization is extreme and not just between left and right. It also seems extreme within the various groups that call themselves liberal, progressive and Democratic. DU recently reflects and reinforces that perception for me. I don't know if it can be changed but I'm sure that if the divides are real then the start of change has to come with understanding of it!

[Kind of Blue]

15. I agree on Ismnotwasm's take.

In that we are in the pool of the malignant polarization from the Bush administration and further it with the "you're either with me or against me" attitude, and the use of strong arming that the other party is so good at has seeped deeply into ours.

Furthermore, I may be wrong, but I cannot remember any presidency that had to deal with one disaster after another, all ongoing, with other longstanding issues that are being hammered out, as well as more coming (asshole McChrystal, for instance). Sheesh, what's next? All of this is absolutely overwhelming that I think it continuously forces people to compartmentalize, only able to cope with their own dilemmas after waiting so long to regain normalcy and start to progress again after Bush. But at the same time, we're infected with "you're either with me or against me," that's now the general attitude.

Many times I think we're all sick but nobody wants to talk about the infection because it has been effective - not that it was successful but if you can swing it, you do get what you want, Now.

You're not out of touch and it is different now. The struggle for change and the incremental changes that comes with it left our reality over 8 years ago.