So, feminists, what do you think masculinity is?

[baby_mouse]

There's been a lot of discussion of it recently and I think this topic deserves its own thread. I'm male and gay and have my own ideas, obviously. I would be interested to hear your views.

[TransitJohn]

1. This should get long

if it doesn't sink. :popcorn:

[baby_mouse]

229. It's the thread that just keeps on giving!

I feel all proud and protective... :)

[Hissyspit]

2. It's a word. n/t

[baby_mouse]

8. Indeed it is. My query pertained to the *meaning* of this word...

... not wishing to appear to pedantic.

[Hissyspit]

18. Meanings.

Sorry, don't mean to be snarky or accuse someone of pedantics on a legitimate issue and concern. Just not in the mood for a lot of typing this morning! Off to dinner and a movie. Carry on. :)

[BlooInBloo]

129. You are well-named.

[EFerrari]

20. Then it would have to be the outward expression

of manliness. Now you have to start another thread. :evilgrin:

[Fredda Weinberg]

3. Gay or straight, masculinity is about domination

I try to avoid gender roles, but they're real. Parents can be flexible, but sexual partners can only take turns.

[Warpy]

4. As much as I'd like to be touchy feely and progressive about

the whole thing, I have to concur. Present constructs of masculinity are all about conquest and domination.

The good news for straight women and gay men is that not all men buy into them completely.

[Raksha]

93. But are "present constructs" the real thing, what it is in itself?

I think masculinity is about a certain kind of energy, not necessarily domination, although in warlike cultures it often takes that form.

[lumberjack_jeff]

102. Or protecting and providing, depends on your viewpoint. n/t

[baby_mouse]

5. Oh dear.

Not wishing to cause undue offense, but in my gay, male experience this is not the case.

[Fredda Weinberg]

9. Top or bottom? The masculine experience ain't exclusively male

or straight.

[baby_mouse]

27. Both, and neither.

And that's not the masculine experience. That's the *dominant* experience.

[Fredda Weinberg]

34. Top and bottom at the same time? Sounds like a threesome

In which case, roles are still relative and you are simply taking turns. As I am taking pains to note, humans are flexible.

[baby_mouse]

86. ... er....

Not wishing to appear dim-witted, but how does the above statement support the proposition that masculinity is about dominance?

[Fredda Weinberg]

123. Here's an article that'll explain it to you

http://media.www.michigandaily.com/media/storage/paper851/news/2005/03/17/TheStatement/Steve.Du.Bois.Shhh.Its.Tops.Secret-1429511.shtml

[baby_mouse]

162. ... er....

Not wishing to appear dim-witted, but how does that article support the proposition that masculinity is about dominance?

[Fredda Weinberg]

205. Right here ... it's explicit

Usually (and stereotypically), we associate this with dominance and thus with the partner who plays the more masculine role in the relationship.

[baby_mouse]

215. I think I see where wires are crossing between us...

Are you talking about the perception of masculinity? I'm talking about masculinity as it *is*. I hope.

[LostinVA]

217. What about topping from the bottom?

[TankLV]

7. So is anything associated with men good or even acceptable

or is everything female = good and male = bad...

[Fredda Weinberg]

13. Whoah, don't put value judgements on nature ... for example

predation cannot be justified nor reasonably condemned. In a healthy relationship, all sorts of options are available. But on first contact with a male of any species, I respect gender expectations, even as I flaunt 'em.

[TankLV]

19. noticed you didn't answer the question...

[Fredda Weinberg]

35. What question? What is masculinity? Sure I did n/t

[Dorian Gray]

173. Yeah...

that one.

(Not really.) Seriously, I don't know if I subscribe to dominant being the preeminant quality of mascuilinity. I've never really thought about what the quality is, though I consider my husband to be masculine, but he's also very sensitive (which I've always likened as a feminie trait!) It's something for me to ponder or mull over, I suppose.

[jpgray]

10. Way too simplistic. Pick out the dominating asshole--Gandhi or Indira Gandhi

Climbing to the top of the social ladder to dominate others is a human trait, not a male-female trait. Some pursue that, some don't. As far as personal, physical domination, you have a case.

[Fredda Weinberg]

17. You're confusing biology wth gender roles. Indira was a warrior

and all about domination. The Mahatma played a publicly neuter role. But each, in her and his private life, acknowledged personal struggle.

[jpgray]

24. Ayn Rand? Margaret Thatcher? Catherine the Great? Cleopatra?

Lots and lots of examples of dominating women out there in history. You could say the greatest dominators were men, but then I could say the greatest philanthropists and thinkers have been men. Then you could say that's indicative of a patriarchal society, and then I could agree with you, but that goes for both cases.

[Fredda Weinberg]

28. Oh dear ... not a submissive female among em

As I have taken pains to point out, masculinity is a role, not a reflection of biology.

[jpgray]

32. Loving luxury and causing oppression and death is just being a strong woman?

Ooooookay. I think women can be strong and have a conscience, myself.

[Fredda Weinberg]

37. Why does domination have to imply oppression and death?

This is your problem, not mine.

[jpgray]

46. Isn't your argument that those women are "masculine?" To my mind they're human.

[Fredda Weinberg]

53. My argument is that those women played a public role - and it wasn't

Hollywood starlet. There's a time for submission and ... for some women ... domination.

You think I behave the same way around cops than I do on a date? Nuts. When I'm at work, I appear masculine and demand respect for my work. This doesn't make me less female - it means certain gender roles are appropriate at particular times.

[jpgray]

57. That's fair enough, but I don't see powerful, in-control women as being "masculine" at all

To me that's a human behavior. The -nature- of it might be considered masculine or feminine, but the general behavior I don't see as having a gender identity.

[Fredda Weinberg]

I wish gender roles were illusory, but nurturing is a feminine trait

and not exclusively female. Parenting is a more flexible role, which necessarily combines both gender characteristics, but studies show brain differences affect behavior.

[Whisp]

82. masculinity is a role, not a reflection of biology.

good one. I'm jotting that one down for future cage matches. ;)

[baby_mouse]

85. I don't really buy that, I'm afraid.

It seems really weird, in evolutionary terms, to have a brain that's entirely programmable from top to bottom in one species on the planet when virtually every other species endowed with any intellect has its instincts partitioned along the lines of gender, mostly, it should be pointed out, for the sake of efficiency.

[Fredda Weinberg]

127. Ah, the human brain is indeed flexible. I was born right handed

but a traumatic amputation left me with a non-standard dominant hemisphere. Now, tell me how I'm impossible ... I dare ya!

[baby_mouse]

95. Why "confusing"?

Biology has something of a habit of partitioning instinctive roles to its creations along the lines of gender. We sort of have to assume that it's genetic, given that most of biology *has* no culture. Why would humanity be exempt from this?

[Fredda Weinberg]

128. Fortunately for me, we are

I have enjoyed extraordinary latitude in my relationships, including a happy marriage that defied all social norms and had to be terminated because we didn't have kids. So, where we come from, biology *is* our culture ... it's called in English "be fruitful and multiply" and females are supposed to take it seriously.

[Riktor]

175. Biology doesn't determine roles, per se

In another thread, I took the position that there is an evolutionary explanation for male dominance. Naturally, a few "feminists" flippantly dismissed the position, falling back on the decidedly non-scientific works of Andrea Dworkin and her ill-informed ilk.

However, as I stated in the other thread, evolution doesn't produce roles. Those are social constructs, and differ from one society to the next. In all societies, women typically wield less political and economic clout than men, but all societies differ in what role women are expected to play.

Evolution has deemed the human male "provider and protector", in the sense that in order to secure a mate and pass on his genes, the male must demonstrate his ability to provide for and protect his mate and his offspring. Human children must nurtured, and a male's material wealth and physical prowess implies he is able to invest the necessary time and resources in his offspring.

With that said, evolution doesn't seem to have dictated gender roles. It merely places pressure on males to accrue resources, which may explain the male proclivity towards dominance. Like Robert Wright mentioned in "The Moral Animal", nature may be unfair, but time and time again, human beings have shown themselves capable of overcoming even the most intense of biological drives. If indeed the social stratification between men and women is biological in origin, we are not incapable of overcoming such barriers.

[TahitiNut]

12. The Power of the Evil Penis.

It's not just for Clinton-bashers.

:eyes:

[Fredda Weinberg]

21. As I female, I find your reaction amusing

Why did you read evil into my observation?

[EFerrari]

40. No wonder women are unhappy. They are surrounded by evil.

Fathers, brothers, sons --

HELP!

:rofl:

[Ariana Celeste]

67. lmao

[EFerrari]

14. No. Domination has been assigned to masculinity in some cultures

not the other way around.

[Fredda Weinberg]

26. Got an example of a society where females dominate?

The best I've seen are parenting cultures where roles are flexible.

[EFerrari]

33. Now you have to define domination.

Matrilineal cultures.

Matrilocal

Cultures where women have to agree to declarations of war.

Cultures where women wear the wealth of the family (walking banks, lol)

See the problem?

[Fredda Weinberg]

39. Women who wear wealth don't necessarily dominate

I was remembering a lyric yesterday,

The rich relationed hometown queen
Married into what she needs
A guarantee of company
And haven for the elderly.
Remember those who win the game
Lose the love they sought to gain
Indebentures of quality
And dubious integrity.
Their small town eyes will gape at you
in dull surprise when payment due
Exceeds accounts received

and don't confuse political equality with default gender roles. We went from mitosis to meiosis for a reason and it ain't pretty, but as a strategy, it's proved effective.

[EFerrari]

42. And, you'd still have to define domination.

And, that would be difficult to do, wouldn't it?

[Fredda Weinberg]

61. Why? I recognize when a dominating persona is appropriate, don't you?

The dominant personality initiates and controls the relationship. Decision making and goal-setting are options reserved for the dominant member as well as standards setting and progress determination.

In a military or para-military setting, dominance follows chain of command. In other relationships, the lines of authority are more fluid and couples usually establish spheres of dominance to avoid conflict.

[EFerrari]

65. So, you are now defining domination as a psychological function

that is inherent in all relationships? Am I getting that right?

[Fredda Weinberg]

120. A social role that emerges from meiosis ... sexual reproduction

Egg and sperm ... no, it's not inherent in all relationships, but masculinity is one of two potential forms a gamete can take.

We don't call sperm evil because the egg doesn't attempt penetration - nor would we expect an egg to apply rational decision making to select which candidate succeeds in reproduction.

As modern, civilized humans we have more flexible behavior, but the legacy of our biological makeup drives our irrational impulse to conjugate. As for myself, I appreciate the luxury of privacy.

[EFerrari]

149. Social roles don't emerge from sexual reproduction or

they'd be uniform across cultures and they are not.

[Fredda Weinberg]

154. Life isn't about uniformity ... you see reflections of influences

And yes, every culture recognizes the difference between the genders. Get real.

[EFerrari]

157. Your terms are squishy, Fredda. Might want to look into that. n/t

[LostinVA]

218. Huh? Domination emerges from sexual reproduction?

How does that work in gay couples?

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

70. Yeah but the small town boys weren't good at basketball.

Sorry but I'm not buying the Gender roles here.

[Riktor]

176. None of those apply

There are societies in which women wield comparably more powerful roles than what the west is used to, but the political power in those societies is still distributed amongst men. The opinions of women in those societies may hold a lot of sway and may be highly respected, but at the end of the day, the men are still at least nominally in control.

[EFerrari]

187. So, you are defining domination as political power?

[Riktor]

196. Not really

I'm defining domination as authority, which is invested in political figures. They create the rules and norms which guide society and, ultimately, have the power to punish those who transgress.

[fishwax]

121. what do you mean by

"sexual partners can only take turns"? Can only take turns in masculine/feminine roles?

[Fredda Weinberg]

204. Dominant/submissive taking turns, not gender bending

Can you see two dominatrices whacking it out? It's S&M, not S&S or even M&Ms (pun intended).

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[musette_sf]

6. in the words of a band beloved

in the gay community, People Are People.

i think that ought to cover it.

and if more people saw the world this way, perhaps people wouldn't act out based on stereotypes, conditioning, and approval-seeking.

[baby_mouse]

23. Well, that's true...

But it's a bit of a tautology.

I'm not convinced that masculinity is the chimera it's cast as. I think it has roots in a hard-wired psychology, I also think it demonstrates qualities a good deal more subtle than it's given credit for, and these qualities are largely occulted through stereotyping and an absence of modes through which it can be expressed.

[musette_sf]

83. i do not buy into the "hard-wired" bit

i believe that what people say is "hard-wired", is actually a justification for behavior that fits within the parameters of sociological and cultural rules, roles, and/or expectations.

when you say "hard-wired psychology", do you mean that you think it's genetic gender-based influence upon your psychology?

i think we all have urges, and we can either choose to act out on those urges, or we can control them and choose not to act out on them. i think that saying that certain behaviors are "hard-wired" is just a free pass for those who don't wish to control their urges.

[baby_mouse]

90. Yes, I do think that there is a gender-based influence on my psychology....

... but I shall reassure you, I hope, by acknowledging that it affords me no "free pass" of any kind. :D

A substantial proportion of creatures in the animal kingdom that *have* gender demonstrably have no culture of any kind, yet their instinctive labours are divided along the lines of gender. It may be that case that humanity is exempt from this and that our psyches are entirely constructed from social programming, but it seems very peculiar to simply *assume* this, I think it would have to be rigourously *demonstrated* to be the case before I would accept it, as it's generally not the case among mammals and humans have been dividing their labours for centuries along the lines of gender (not that I'm advocating this, far from it). Unfortunately, any experiment that could demonstrate it successfully would be very hard to pull off, so I it wouldn't be fair of me to claim that my position is one of absolute conviction. I could be wrong.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

116. I agree

Look at our closets relatives in the animal kingdom and some roles are usually clearly differentiated. To think that we aren't hardwired to some degree, is wishful thinking and ignoring the obvious.

I tried to parent the first few of my seven children in a much more "gender neutral" fashion. ha By the time I got to the later kids, I gave up. They are who they are.

[EFerrari]

11. More and more, I think "masculinity" like "femininity"

is about being comfortable in your own skin and in your own sexuality and having confidence in your self, whether gay or straight. The most masculine man I think I've ever met is a gay DUer -- much to my chagrin.

lol

[renie408]

31. Agreed. 'Comfortable in your own skin' sums it up nicely. n/t

[Marr]

223. I think that's a good way of putting it.

I've had similar experiences. The most masculine men I've known didn't drive giant trucks with cannons mounted on top. They were thoughtful people who were comfortable with themselves. Same for femininity. It has nothing to do with skirts or makeup, and certainly nothing to do with submission.

[renie408]

15. Being able to hammer a nail over your head.

I can do just about anything around the house and the farm, but if I have to hammer nails in spots that are taller than I am, I just can't do it. So I have to get my husband for that stuff.

Wait, I thought of some other stuff...he can climb better than I can and is less afraid of ladders. So, he gets anything that requires ladders...he is also better at loosening bolts than I am.

One thing I also find curiously masculine is vaulting fences. If we are in a hurry to get across the farm, he can just bounce right across the ring rail or into a pasture and I always have to get to a gate or crawl through the rails. My son is the same way. They just run at the fence and over they go. Neither my daughter nor I can do that.

[EFerrari]

16. You don't have a step ladder?

lol

[renie408]

29. I have to have the nail at chest level or lower to get the right angle on it.

I think it has something to do with my husband's wrist strength. He can hold a hammer at the weirdest angles and just beat the shit out of a nail. It frustrates me to no end.

[EFerrari]

36. When I was a single mom, my girlfriend got annoyed with me

for driving a nail "like a girl". She showed me how to use the weight of the hammer and do it right.

That was a good lesson. :)

[renie408]

49. Yeah, I hate to see women choking up on a hammer. No TAPPING!! n/t

[riverdeep]

22. The way this question is phrased isn't confrontational at all

and should lead to many thoughtful and engaging posts.

edit: wasn't going to put this on originally, cause it seemed obvious, but

<sarcasm>

[baby_mouse]

30. I certainly hope so.

We shall see.

[baby_mouse]

161. Oh. I didn't think you were being sarcastic at all.

Why do you think the question is confrontational?

[Cleita]

25. IMO, the Y chromosome says it all to me.

Other than that, I have never played into the big, strong superhero guy, whose gonna take care of me. Men are human beings with all ranges of strength and weaknesses that anyone has. In the end it was me who had to be the strong one, who took care of my husband, before he died from the terminal disease that killed him. I also don't buy into the delicate flower idea of women either. There is some heavy lifting that I need on occasion but mostly I can handle life very nicely on my own.

[Sanctified]

38. Why would anyone have a problem with masculinity.

I am pretty sure people are either masculine or feminine by genetics and if someone has a problem with that they need to take it up with mother nature.

[rucky]

41. Is this an anatomical question? n/t

[EFerrari]

47. Not necessarily. n/t

[rucky]

48. I'm going to say it is.

Masculinity is the body's reaction to testosterone.

[renie408]

51. Miracle Whip eater. n/t

[rucky]

54. The South has risen again, eh?

I gotta get me some Moon Pies. carb-up for the re-match.

[EFerrari]

52. Doesn't that sort of exclude identity, role and practice?

I'm not trying to start a brawl. It's an interesting question. :)

[rucky]

66. Those are all manifestations.

The hormones send the impulses, and the identity/role/practice is the agreed-upon thoughts/behaviors to channel them. How much you're willing to buy into the social-created stuff depends on how much you need them to satisfy the impulses.

Fortunately, most (not all) of the accepted outlets are pretty benign, nowadays (like scratching yourself in public, or peeing off the deck). I think that's what all the anti-feminists are all really whining about (they just don't know it).

[EFerrari]

71. I'll have to think about that. I love this nice, complicated question.

Can you say more about what "anti-feminists" are whining about so I can make sure I get it?

[rucky]

74. their traditional outlets have become more benign.

And they're expected to take responsibility and control for actions that were once viewed as entitlements. Mostly related to power and sex.

[EFerrari]

Sure, and the trade off is, the minute we had feminism

there was post feminism. Like a hat trick. lol

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

64. Is femininity the body's reaction to estrogen?

Does it make a difference that every body has exactly the same hormones as every other body, but in varying amounts?

[rucky]

68. read my post above you.

[Raksha]

97. Yes, estrogen and progesterone and the one connected with nursing,

I think it's called oxytocin. It really surprised me when I was nursing my firstborn that I had a whole range of hormonal reactions I never knew existed until then.

[RainDog]

152. yeah, it was WILD

never before in my life had I felt like I would beat the shit out of someone who tried to harm my child. Never before did I feel like a "lioness" ready to protect my child with my life. Other women I know talked about the same reaction.

that's at least part of "hormonal femininity" since females are awash in birthing hormones at that time, it seems that aggression is part of the female hormonal package too. the context of that readiness to mix it up has nothing to do with traditionally described masculinity. don't think testosterone plays a big part in that one.

[UncleSepp]

188. What about people who are masculine before T?

:-P Enough T to affect the brain, not enough to affect the body?

Yes, I am being a goofball.

[Captain Hilts]

78. For all those who think it takes "balls" to have moral fortitude it is. nt

[The Straight Story]

43. The ability of someone to live up to a definition which is a mere societal image now

To be 'strong' in a word - a word which has devolved into physical strength and the ability to use that strength to accomplish a goal.

Since men were more often than not more physically strong (in things like bulk of muscle) the more of that you had the more masculine some would see you (to wit, the more you have of what is used to define something, the more of that you are).

It is, by definition, something related to males but is not solely devoted to such of course - but the root, imho, comes from a difference between the sexes that is rather general.

A more modern definition to me as we have moved from hunting/gathering and such is strength of mind and having the strength to do what is right and good. For example, a masculine person now I think is a man who can take care of others utilizing not simply physical strength but mental (and more and more often mental is what provides, though not so much in sports).

It is, in a sense, a sexist word - but then, there is not much wrong with that as it is discussing a characteristic of one particular sex and that sex's degree of strength.

[EFerrari]

56. This is sort of fascinating because the categories explode.

lol

When you say physical strength, what do you mean? Women live longer and tend to be more resistant to disease, iirc. They're stronger physically by that criteria.

:)

[The Straight Story]

Hulk Hogan type

:)

[EFerrari]

62. And, he's was my very favorite super hero.

:)

But, isn't it funny that when we push on these categories, they sort of go molecular? Masculinity is so much more than brute strength or else any elephant is more masculine (where male or female) than any human bean.

[The Straight Story]

69. Indeed, I agree - however

I think the context of the word originally was designed to solely discuss men (much like feminine is for, well, females :)

I think both have meanings that can cross those boundaries, but what we need are new words for a new time.

[EFerrari]

73. Maybe Cleita has it right. Representative of Chrom X or Y.

Hard to rime those terms, though. lol

[The Straight Story]

79. Perhaps just a new, less sex driven word to define what it once did

there are male and female body builders for example, so maybe just using the word muscular for that singularity versus masculine which has it as it's core meaning but also encompasses many other areas (ie, fighting as an example).

In today's world roles are not as defined as in olden times, in a more progressive society every one has a value that is outside the old boundaries which were once so prevalent.

To say, for example, that a man who spends time at home taking care of kids while his wife works outside the home is feminine is to succumb to stereotypical roles which may have once held sway in the minds of many but now do not.


Maybe the best to use is Adult. Or maybe 'responsible'. :)

[baby_mouse]

111. How interesting. I've always thought of elephants as very feminine creatures...

Another thing that I find strange is "the" in French (I don't know about other languages), it's always gendered. Certain inanimate objects seem to be thought of as inherently feminine and others are inherently masculine...

[EFerrari]

146. In Spanish as well. It's the masculine air and the feminine rain.

Don't most languages except English do that? (English being more of a trainwreck than a language, lol.)

[baby_mouse]

213. I must confess my ignorance, but was under the impression...

... that it's mainly a peculiarity of Romance languages like French, Spanish, Italian and suchlike things?

[EFerrari]

236. Those are the only ones I'm at all familiar with. Anybody speak German?

Or Mandarin? Or :shrug:

[Alcibiades]

244. I speak it

German that is, though it would be more accurate to write that I write and read German, as I have no call to speak it nowadays.

German has three genders: masculine, feminine and neuter. So did English, at least back when it was Old English. Most Indo-European languages have at least the masculine/feminine distinction. For some reason, nobody really knows why, grammatical gender largely disappeared from English. (Personally I think it had to do with the fact that English has so many loan words from other languages that the whole messy matter became too complicated to deal with).

So gender is not something limited to romance (i.e. Latin-derived) languages. Germanic languages, another branch on the Indo-European tree, also have this distinction, plus the additional "neuter" category. We could spend lots of time charting the development of gender in language, but happily there's a whole literature in linguistics devoted to it, so the heavy lifting has already been done by some very smart people.

I had no idea whether Mandarin has gender, so I looked it up. According to that there wikipedia, Chinese languages have no gender. An excellent entry there--look up the subject of "grammatical gender".

[Marr]

224. I've yet to figure out why my head is feminine, but my stomach is masculine.

I cannot keep the genders of inanimate objects straight at all, either. I think my passport is feminine, but my trumpet is masculine. Bleh.

[MedleyMisty]

44. My cat walked across the keyboard and I lost my post

So here's the short and sweet version.

I think masculinity is having a Y chromosome and testosterone and male genitalia, and even then there's a gray area of rare genetic stuff.

I don't get why it should go beyond that. Why should you feel pressured to be a certain way because you have testicles, and why should I feel pressured to be a certain way because I have ovaries?

[jpgray]

50. This is a good answer.

[renie408]

55. There are aspects of the male/female social dynamic that I enjoy.

I think the thing is not to let them get out of control.

I like my husband opening doors for me. I get a kick out of it when he gets protective. But we keep it within a framework that works for us. He doesn't 'dominate'. Actually, I am probably the more dominant partner in our relationship. But there are times when it is nice to feel like a girl. That might make me terribly un-feminist, but it is the way I feel.

[baby_mouse]

230. Doesn't that depend on where the pressure comes from?

What if comes from *me*?

[renie408]

45. My serious answer

I think that masculinity and femininity are like art...you know it when you see it. I don't think it has anything to do with dominance. My husband is one of the most masculine men I know (see nail hammering post) and he is soft spoken and sweet natured, he curls up like a cat when he watches TV, screams like a girl if we get a bat in the house and cried like a baby when he watched the movie 8 Below (I couldn't watch it). He never uses physical force for anything other than jar lids, nails and bench pressing my daughter to make her giggle. He is a tool belt wearing, construction working southern boy who loves to read and watch Bill Maher and will catch a spider and put it out of the house when I would stomp that sucker flat in a minute.

But he is masculine and perfect for me and I knew it when I saw it and I jumped on it 25 years ago and haven't let go since.

[baby_mouse]

75. Yes!

I agree! It is art.

[emmadoggy]

98. Awww.

What a sweet post. Sounds like you have a wonderful man there and a great marriage.

And I agree that masculinity and femininity are like art. What is masculine or feminine to one person may not be to another. It's all in the eye of the beholder. Certainly, there are qualities that most would agree are masculine or feminine but they manifest differently in each person and therefore are "read" differently by the observer as well. Does that make sense?

Don't mind me, I have a cold and am medicated and may not be thinking clearly. :silly:

[renie408]

136. He is and it is.

Makes sense to me. Everybody knows a committed and loving couple that they cannot for the life of them figure out what each sees in the other. I am sure my marriage, which feels so right to me, wouldn't work for a lot of people. But it doesn't have to work for anybody but the two of us.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

131. Good answer

You know it when you see it. My husband is very masculine. He's the best dad I know, and by far one of the best "parents" I know. He's very nurturing, but still in a more masculine sort of way. He's very supportive of my endeavors, but he can still go into a very masculine kind protective mode.

I'm not at all attracted to men who aren't "masculine," and I don't think that's a social construct anymore than being straight or gay is. Sexuality and attraction are about more than genitals. (I'm also not attracted to Rambo types, either. ugh)

[Raksha]

193. Rats!!! It's like I was saying on another thread...

the good ones are always taken--at least at my age they are.

[Rhiannon12866]

58. A guy doesn't have to be tough to be masculine.

I'm sure not big on tough, prefer a guy who I can be friends with, who's a good listener and not afraid to share things about himself, as well. I was once asked to list the top ten qualities that I liked in a man and, while I can't remember most of my list, I do remember that I put intelligence first. Sense of humor is right up there too.:-)

[Jed Dilligan]

59. There are a few traits that I feel are genetic and spring from my maleness

I abhor euphemisms. I would rather let work pile up and do it all in one heroic thrust. I don't like dallying a long time over choices. I would rather be outdoors alone than indoors alone, but I would rather be indoors alone than outdoors in a crowd. My sexual attraction has a very limited emotional component.

I believe these are biologically driven traits beyond, but related to, physical maleness, hence, masculinity. Sometimes they are useful, sometimes they get in the way, just like femininity.

[baby_mouse]

84. I relate to this. I also feel that some aspects of masculinity are hard-wired

I like space-ships and science fiction. I like motorbikes. I like action movies. I like making models. And I like fixing stuff.

And another thing, there's a quote from some Mark Twain book that a guys says: "Sometimes I sits and thinks. And sometimes I just sits."

[Jed Dilligan]

122. I generally favor fiction where the stakes are high,

i.e., survival more than will he get the girl? I love old weapons--spears, swords, clubs, etc. Gory, adult sword-and-sorcery is my favorite genre, but it's very rare and hard to come by. (So I try to write it.)

I was a heavy model builder as a kid but now the fumes get me.

I'm conflicted about fixing stuff because my dad is a handyman verging on OCD, who moves walls the same way most people move furniture. I try to keep a lid on it, but when it gets down to it I'm pretty good. There's a lot of satisfaction in, for instance, getting a car running by the roadside instead of waiting for help.

The old "men's magazines" with stories about adventurers wrestling polar bears are much more appealing to me than something like Maxim.

(BTw, I don't think the quote is from Mark Twain. I googled it up and found it attributed to Satchel Paige. However, I remember it from a book I once had called "The Classic Cartoons." I think it was from the British magazine Punch, ca. 1890.)

[renie408]

150. My husband does that!! With the walls!!

People are always saying we live in the Lego house because depending on what we think we need, he just moves the walls around.

I think its kind of cool.

[renie408]

145. Men's brains are literally wired differently from a womans.

That's why my kids can talk to their dad while he is watching TV and he can't hear a word. I don't think equality between the genders means BEING the same, it means being TREATED the same in the workforce, etc. I would never want to lose either my husband's 'maleness' or my 'femaleness'.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

60. I think

it's the other half of being a female, like femininity is the other half of being a male. It is one-half of a whole that brings forth creation, whether it be biological, intellectual, or emotional.

I do not mean that one needs the other in order to be complete, because I believe we are already complete. Each of us contains all the traits of femininity and masculinity in varying degrees. We seek out partners who complement our own mix.

My view on masculinity and femininity is best expressed by this joke by Roseanne:

Some people complain that I'm not feminine enough.
They say, "You know, Roseanne, you're not very feminine!"
You know what I tell them?
"Well, suck my dick!"

Thank you, I'll be here all weekend.

[Ariana Celeste]

63. I don't like the term 'masculine' any more than 'feminine'

If a guy has big shoulders, my thought is never 'he looks masculine'... rather I think 'damn, dude has some big shoulders.'

If a man or woman can put together a table or bookshelf or whatever with their own hands, I don't think, 'He/She is masculine'... I think 'He/She is good with their hands.'

If a man or woman can keep my house clean, I don't consider them feminine. I can give a long list of examples, but to me 'feminine' and 'masculine' are just labels for old stereotypical gender roles.

Just my opinion. :hi:

[Nobody]

72. If a man does it, it is a masculine activity

If you are male, you are masculine. Everything you do and are is masculine.

What makes a man? A Y Chromosome.

What is manly? Something that a person with a Y chromosome does and is.

It may also coincide with something that is feminine. Whatever I do is feminine because I've got two X chromosomes. Things can be both masculine and feminine at the same time. People are who they are, and if you're transexual, skip the chromosome, you are whatever you feel comfortable being. Had to throw that in there, I know a lot of people born into a body with the wrong set of gonads.

Those who claim that masculine and feminine are two mutually exclusive things are insecure in their own selves.

We as a society limit people too much and try to tell people what they can and should do in their free time and for careers.

As a kid, I was told not to play with my brother's toy soldiers because they were boy toys. I told my mom that they were girl toys when I played with them. Her response was to wait until my brother got bored with them and put them in the next garage sale. I think I was five then.

The same thing applies with every activity. Are you male? Then whatever you do and are is masculine and the truly manly men define the activity with their participation rather than allow their participation be defined by the activity.

No one I know has ever had a sex change operation simply by fixing a car or by darning socks.

[UncleSepp]

189. Love ya, Nobody!

Thanks for that :yourock: I think if more folks could absorb that, then fewer would feel so torn up inside.

[Captain Hilts]

76. A masculine man is a responsible adult who takes responsibility for his actions. nt

[Guaranteed]

105. Is a feminine female the opposite of that? nt

[baby_mouse]

115. I think it's a question of emphasis rather than opposition.

One could compare your question with someone asking whether masculine men are the opposite of a "nurturing" female. It doesn't really work, of course, to define your personal qualities solely in terms of being opposite of something you *aren't*, but I'm not convinced that the post you're responding to really deserves the implied assertion that it's making that assumption.

Having said that, I'm not actually sure that I agree with the post you're responding to. I think it's a little simplistic.

[Sparkly]

77. I think it refers to the aspects of men that are different from women.

Hairy chests, lower voices, different genitalia, non-functioning breasts...

It gets trickier when we talk about more than that -- behaviors, muscularity, height -- because those are easy to magnify, and at the same time easy to dismiss (there are some women who out-masculine some men in these regards).

But I think it's packaged images of that magnification -- "hyper-masculinity" -- that Republicans go gaga over.

[StClone]

92. Masculine = Male

etymology of masculine

male (n.) Look up male at Dictionary.com 1373, from O.Fr. masle (Fr. mâle), from L. masculus "masculine, male" (cf. Prov. mascle, Sp. macho, It. maschio), dim. of mas (gen. maris) "male person or animal, male." Mechanical sense of "part of an instrument that penetrates another part" is from 1856.

Masculine today refers to the typical male traits of large muscle mass and penis and the male secondary traits by definition and etymology. It can't mean anything else.

[Whisp]

80. two definitions

the not so great societal one (that has been nurtured mostly for recruiting for wars) is quite sick-. ultra competitiveness, top dog, belittling, beat downs and berating, insensitivity, cold, machine like, might of physical power and dominance. I think I just described the whole bush administration (and previous power wielders, as this is nothing new).

but the day to day masculinity is not so complicated at all. Just stand up to bullshit whenever you can - even if you get called names that attack or threaten your sexuality and male 'rights'. There are many many real masculine men out there and it's too bad that the loud mouthed puffing brayer aholes get to define the word.

[baby_mouse]

132. Yes, I agree. Perhaps you would agree with the term "occulted masculinity"?

You see, I think there's a collection of traits peculiar to men that are almost *hidden* by the patriarchy.

I think the hyperactive, superassholes are pretty unmanly, actually. I'm male and I'm attracted to males, and I know what I find attractive, what I find most "male", and it's nothing to do with being insensitive. It's about stoicism, competence, patience, good humour, strength, an ability to brush off failure as a fact of life, a kind of common sense about when to be accepting of one's fate and when to stand up.

Also, silence. Men love silence. And men love small, intricate things. And they like to take the piss. And they want to have lots of pals and for people not to be pissed off with them all the time. And they hate *fuss*. They love impractical things like fantasy and limericks and nonsense poetry. And they're grumpy. And they HATE being uncomfortable...

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

81. I'm not a real feminist but like most men I claim to be one

when women yell at me for doing something apparently mysoginist or apelike.

That said I'll venture a snarky guess

somewhere between here



and here

[supernova]

87. Masculinity is simply the quality of maleness

Putting on my English teacher hat:

Remember, we have myriad words in English that mean the same or very similiar concepts. Don't let all the words fool you. Masculinity is simply the quality of maleness. If you got a Y chromosome, you are masculine. By definition, what you do and how you do it, your POV, is masculine.

The same is true for the concept of feminine:
If you have two XXs, then you are feminine. By definition, anything you do and how you do it, your POV, is feminine.

That's all the biology talking (IMO)

Now when it comes to culturally, when we see one gender seeming to playing around in the other gender's wading pool, boys who like make up or woman who like driving nails with hammers (like me), then it's the cultural ideal of masculine and feminine that needs to be widened and expanded to fit our biology, not the other way around. Why? Because our biology was around eons before our culture and language, even one as nuanced as English, is an imperfect tool for describing our world and us. Regardless of what we call it, this capacity for gender bending by both genders is central to our survival, otherwise it wouldn't still be around.


And if I sound a bit terse and direct, it's because I am a female with equally-developed masculine and feminine sides.

edit: Forgot to say, I love men. ;-)

[LWolf]

88. It's a lot of things.

It's testosterone, and all of the physical characteristics and impulses, and social/emotional impulses, and way of seeing and thinking about things, triggered by testosterone.

It's a cultural/tribe definition of self.

It's a set of expectations, many of which are inaccurate.


It's the perpetual, universal interplay between the boy and the man, between the mind and the body, the culture and the spirit.

Is this what you needed?

[baby_mouse]

159. ... not entirely...

... with my mousey nose I can smell more thoughts bubbling away in your wolfy head. :D

Say more things.

[LWolf]

166. Ok. Masculinity

is different from femininity. I'm a hetero female feminist whose had a long, complicated history with men, and I may not see "masculine" the way others do.

I'm also the mom of two men and a grandson, and a teacher of many young people and adolescents, which also colors my perceptions of gender characteristics.

Masculinity is the sum of male characteristics. Some of which are physical, some cultural, some pyschological. I don't pretend to know where one factor leaves off and another begins. I know that while the following characteristics are generally accurate, they aren't all accurate for all males, and some are also accurate for some females. Which makes definition of masculinity rather ambiguous, to say the least.

Biologically, males have the physical properties of protector, predator, and seed spreader. I often wonder how much of that is testosterone, and how much cultural conditioning. I don't know the answer.

In my experience, there is a built-in, visceral physical impulse to throw, to hit, to climb, to be PHYSICAL, even to fight, to dominate, to hunt. Their entertainments, their social interactions, are often connected to physical impulses. Even when there are no cultural triggers, some of these characteristics are clearly evident.

Cognitively, male brains work differently than female. They tend to patterns and rules.

Socially, males tend to be simpler, more direct, more straightforward than females.

The male who rules his masculinity, who can enjoy his maleness without being ruled by it, is the ideal of "masculine."

The same could be said of the feminine, of course.

In reality, I think that every person is both masculine and feminine, and that the most well-balanced, centered person will have both masculine and feminine characteristics evenly balanced. I sometimes think that gay/lesbian people might be better balanced than the rest of us.


Do those things help any?

[xchrom]

89. i LOVE masculinity -- i'm even masculine sometimes myself.

seriously though -- i love men -- i find them fascinating, scary, compelling, sexy -- they can be metro or they can be very, very rugged -- i generally like the whole spectrum.

but i really do like them -- no matter there out-wards appearance if they strongly identify as male or masculine.

the dominating thing -- is sometimes charismatic -- but doesn't hold my interest for all that long.
it's a little like knowing how the story will end. -- it telegraphs everything i need to know -- without revelation.

i tend to pay more attention to men who are more quietly{i'm not talking vocals here} masculine -- and seems to be a reservoir.

when refering to both genders -- i.e. the conversation about indira ghandi or margaret thatcher or golda meir -- there i like to use the word muscular.

men or women can have muscular personalities -- and mostly -- we know what that means.

[baby_mouse]

91. No sign of Katherine so far...

...Katherine?

[Katherine Brengle]

170. I posted.

C'mon, like I'm gonna miss this one.

;)

[lumberjack_jeff]

94. Is "femininity" best defined by men?

Just askin'.

[baby_mouse]

101. Good question!

But not quite where I'm at. I'm not convinced that a feminist would necessarily come up with the *best* definition of masculinity any more than a male rights activist would necessarily come up with the best definition of femininity, but I do think that anyone who pays close attention to issues of gender is likely to come up with useful insights on the subject.

[lumberjack_jeff]

109. Implicit is the assumption that "feminists" = "those who pay close attention to issues of gender"

I'm not suggesting that investigating the feminist stereotype of masculinity is not an interesting question. I'm suggesting that it's not considerably more valid than asking the guy with seats on the 50 yard line of tomorrow's Seahawks game to define femininity during the halftime show.

He'll probably grunt and point at the cheerleader with the nicest pom-poms. In his defense, unlike some of the responses in this thread, he won't point at the one who best reflects the caricature of what he most detests.

When men objectify women, it's at least as a desirable object.

For all the belief that male oppression is the root of all evil, if you were to ask a few hundred men to explain their views on femininity, I suspect that few will respond; "domination and aggression" or even their opposites; "helplessness, deception and passive-aggression".

Because of books like "Don't think of an Elephant" we're attuned to the effect of memes - the effect that redefining terms like "liberal" has had on our society. Simultaneously, we seem to have little problem with the redefinition of what once was considered an unequivocally positive term, morally equivalent to "feminine".

This redefinition has a core assumption: equality is served by a win/lose outcome. I don't agree.

For me, masculine is the quality of being unafraid of standing up for your loved ones, for your community and for yourself, even at personal risk. I know many women who reflect this quality too.

[Raksha]

103. ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Not only is feminism not best defined by men,

FEMININITY or WOMANHOOD is not best defined by men either!!! And I'll go further than that: MEN have no right to define womanhood AT ALL!!! I've thought about this for a hell of a long time and there's just no way I could feel more strongly about it.

I believe the bedrock freedom and the basis of ALL other freedoms for women is the right to define ourselves and not be defined by others--specifically, not be defined BY MEN as we have been for the past 5000 years of patriarchal domination.

My personal feminist journey has mostly consisted of freeing myself from male-engendered definitions of "Woman" and "Woman's" essential and unconditioned "Nature," upon which men have somehow thought they were entitled to make authoritative pronouncements, especially those men who were and are theologians, psychiatrists and lawmakers.

This goes way beyond Freud's nonsense about the "vaginal orgasm," although it's amazing how many women bought into that one for years, taking some man's pronouncement on that subject as more authoritative than their own EXPERIENCE!

But that's such obvious nonsense it's fairly easy to see through it as soon as just one person (was it Kinsey--another man?) has nerve to speak up about it. Then it becomes a matter of "the emperor has no clothes" for the whole culture.

It was the Jungian definitions of womanhood that were much harder to liberate myself from, because I never cared much for Freud to begin with. Jung OTOH was and is one of my heroes, but his definition of the animus or countersexual image in "Woman" is completely off the wall and has nothing to do with reality. It's just one more male projection from a man who absolutely should have known better. At the time I first started challenging there were no feminist neo-Jungians to help me out as there are now.

The big wake-up call for me and the neo-Jungians was the outrageous statement in one of his books (I forget which one) in which he says: "The Logos in women is often a regrettable accident."

That's more than an outrage...it's throwing down the friggin' gauntlet! A new generation of Jungian feminists not only never forgave him for that, they wouldn't let go until they proved him wrong.

[baby_mouse]

106. Well, he is a *little* bit outdated, yes.

But it seems somewhat overenthusiastic to base one's personal journey on the liberation of oneself from the writings of someone who didn't live to see society's acceptance of women wearing *pants*....

Men are likely to continue to form their own impressions of womanhood, hopefully with the aid of the women in their lives. The male experience of women isn't going to simply disappear because you think men don't have a right to one.

[lumberjack_jeff]

110. Well said.

It does appear that she missed my point.

[Raksha]

112. Of course not, and I don't expect it to.

Re The male experience of women isn't going to simply disappear because you think men don't have a right to one.

Men certainly have a voice, but they DO NOT have a veto! In the past, men have presumed to define both male nature and female nature--in fact to define HUMAN nature. They expected all three definitions no matter how outrageously wrong to be accepted as authoritative...which for a very long time, THEY WERE!

[lumberjack_jeff]

114. And to correct this, we should seek a working definition of "masculine" from feminists? n/t

[Raksha]

118. It's exactly the same thing for men: YOU have the final say

on what is or is not "masculine," both individually and collectively. I may have a voice but I do not have a veto. All I can talk about is my own experience of men, because that *IS* my experience which nobody can be the authority on except me.

As I said in my earlier post (the one you were responding to), men HAVE been defining the essence of both maleness AND femaleness for several thousand years now, and it's about time they granted women the same right to self-definition they have always claimed for themselves.

OTOH I haven't been waiting around for you guys to "grant" me anything. Years ago I claimed the right to self-definition and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it!

[baby_mouse]

126. On this point you and I agree completely.

I am reassured, and hope to reassure you that I understand your position. Where on earth would we *start* with the one-sided picture of womanhood defined entirely for centuries by men? Politically, it's only very recently in historical terms that anything other than the male view of women has been seriously considered, even about very fundamental things like pregnancy!

That being said, I think the question you were initially responding to was intended to be taken rhetorically...

[Raksha]

130. I realize it was a rhetorical question,

but the issue of self-definition just happens to be one of my favorite hot-button issues, so I used it as an excuse to go on a rant. :)

[renie408]

137. Did you know that almost all men find a certain ratio of hip to waist size attractive?

Nah...I don't think we should leave it up to the guys.


(The ratio seems to involve a 10" difference between the waist and hip measurements. No matter the over all size of the woman, if she has a waist that is at least 10" smaller than her hips, most men will identify her as sexually attractive. Interesting, huh??)

[midlife_mo_Jo]

144. We certainly shouldn't leave it up to "the guys"

to determine how we maintain our bodies, but the fact is that some men will be more physically attracted to the body type you describe, and I think some of it is hardwired. Men like curves, but depending on what time period they live in, they will have been conditioned so that they might like those curves more voluptuous and soft, or firmer and leaner.

And, perhaps I'm being blunt, but WHO IN THE HELL has decided that clothing looks best on size "0" waifs?

[renie408]

147. Women. In study after study men are attracted to women that other women

say are a few pounds overweight. Weirdly enough, it is women who have been the biggest suckers for what fashion has told us is ideal.

[girl gone mad]

164. Funny, cause I'm..

a size 0 'waif' who has never had a shortage of male attention. I guess I should tell all of my former boyfriends about those studies.

[renie408]

165. There is no accounting for taste.

Hip/Waist ratio study:

http://www.livescience.com/health/060213_attraction_rules.html

[midlife_mo_Jo]

167. haha

My daughters are all petite and wear between sizes 0 -4, but they're not six feet tall, and don't look anorexic. I suppose I should have clarified. On some people size 0 can look healthy.

[BlooInBloo]

148. And I'll thank the ladies very much for not telling ME what to find attractive, and what not....

... Now - on to important matters: where the hell is Monica Bellucci?

[renie408]

151. WHO the hell is Monica Bellucci?? No...let me guess...n/t

[renie408]

153. Just got back from Google...God, men are SO predictable...n/t

[BlooInBloo]

155. It's our nature. (guffaw)

[renie408]

160. ha....ha...ha n/t

[treestar]

96. Impossible to say

I think the right wing assigns too much to the biological, as people of both sexes have all sorts of traits, and we can't say that each sex isn't highly encouraged to take on the "proper" set of traits.

They will argue about how, since a small child will sometimes take on those roles (boys will immediately reject dolls and the color pink) in order to argue it must be biological, but I can argue with equal fervor that these gender traits assigned are so pervasive and the bias so strong that even a three year old can feel it.

[baby_mouse]

99. Well, I don't really agree with that.

I think it would be strange to assign the cause of gender differentiation solely to culture given that many other species have no cultural bias to take their behavioural cues from and yet their members still behave according to their gender.

I think the thing that is often missed in these discussions is that any biologically predetermined differences between genders in their instinctive behaviour STILL shouldn't give anyone a free pass to screw around with other people. That really ought to be enough. I certainly don't think being biologically predisposed towards certain kinds of thinking exempts grown-up human beings from conducting themselves in an acceptably civilised fashion, we have something *better* than genetics now, we have language and understanding, but I think it's unwise to assume that the phenomena consequent on and pertaining to speech and understanding can explain *all* human thought. We are not the only things in the world that can think. There's a great deal of thinking going on all the time on behalf of creatures who have never heard or spoken or understood a single word. It's reasonable to assume that that kind of thinking is available to humanity as well, given that there does not appear to be any obvious evolutionary advantage in throwing it away...

[undeterred]

100. I am the only female in an all male workgroup

and the only gay male is the one who is the most threatened by me and needs to continuatlly show dominance over me by presuming to show superiority. He actually threatened me once by shaking his fist in my face. The group had been all men for a couple of years until I came along.

If you can shed any light on that, I'd be glad to hear it.

So whatever masculinity is, it is very fragile and much more dependent on social relationships than femininity is. Femininity is more biologically grounded; women do not question their femininity.

[baby_mouse]

104. well....

Are you sure that it was an aspect of your gender that he was reacting to? If so, then yes, ugly sexism.

I agree that certain men's view of their own masculinity can be very sensitive to how it is perceived, bu I don't think that's a masculine quality in itself. In fact, if anything I regard such men as slightly boyish and emotionally under-developed.

I don't understand the distinction you make between masculinity and femininity regarding social relationships, and must say that as a man in a workforce almost exclusively staffed by women, actually women are very sensitive to social relationships indeed.

You know what I think it is? I think hypersensitivity to one's own perceived status is heightened the more uniform the social environment is along lines of gender. I think all-woman and all-man social environments encourage a pecking order, covert or overt. All the offices I've worked in that have an even mix of genders are MUCH happier places to work in than anywhere one gender is present in substantially greater numbers than another.

[undeterred]

107. I like working with technical men

and usually it works out pretty well for me. Usually it isn't 100% or the group isn't quite so large. Techie men are usually smart, laid back, and non-political about the work place so they are very easy people to spend 40 hours a week with.

With this person I started out trying to be friendly- and was rejected. Turned out he is more moody and irritable than the typical techie so I decided to keep a distance after he snapped at me several times. I shut down altogether and asked other people for help instead. It seems like he wanted to be my "expert" for learning the job, but I would rather ask someone who I am sure will never bark at me, so I do. I don't know what he was reacting to, but I think that women irritate him.

I guess there is a masculine/feminine issue in terms of asking for help too. Asking for help can be perceived as incompetence. I have a female friend in another department at work (she's a chemist) and she told me that all through grad school she felt like the dumbest person in her department because she asked so many questions, but it always turned out that she was better prepared than some of the male students who wouldn't ask (although they benefitted from her questions) and pretended to know everything. In the workplace its a little different... you have to project competence, but there is still a phase in the beginning where you'd better make sure you are doing it right.

I think this person liked me asking him questions because it make him feel superior (and honestly I think some of the other men like it too) and it made him angry when I stopped. The truth is - I really do consider working with some of the "smarter than I am" men (the ones in higher level jobs) one of the "perks" of the job and there are definitely some gender issues at play. I guess there are parts of our socialization we wrestle with forever and parts we just give in to because the world makes no sense without them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

113. My wife works at a machine shop with all men.

She says that she prefers it that way because she has found the dynamic when working with other women to be problematic. Her theory is that at some level, the women in the office are in competition with one another for approval of the men.

This phenomenon could partly explain your anecdote.

[undeterred]

134. Given a choice between working with all women

or working with all men I would easily choose all men. And hormones do play a role. Yes, there is such a thing as too much testosterone, and sometimes I need to take a break. But too many women with PMS is even worse, and I might be one of them so I can't step outside of it and see it for what it is.
Too many women in a small office space is particularly bad- we aren't good at screening out subtle things. I shared an office with two other women and one wore too much perfume, while the other talked on the phone all day- I went crazy.

The men I work with wear headphones and don't use cologne- they are almost in their own little worlds.

[Fredda Weinberg]

124. Girls do every day. That's why Barbie's waistline is pernicious n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

237. A lot of women do question their femininity. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

108. Peeing on the furniture.

Well, in cats, at least.

[BlackVelvet04]

117. It's as hard to define as femininity.

I think one of the characteristics of masculinity is a desire to protect.

[baby_mouse]

119. Yes, I did ask for a definition, didn't I?

I'm certainly not *regretting* asking for such a definition but perhaps a more subtle question would actually have been easier to answer... like "What does masculinity make you think of?" or "free associate along the theme of masculinity", but that would have brought up illusions and fictions. Perhaps that would have been okay anyway, providing an understanding of that aspect of the issue was signalled post by post...

[BlackVelvet04]

169. Yeah....

and I wish I could give you a definition but I don't have the answers. I wasn't criticizing just commenting how hard it is for me to define.

[Katherine Brengle]

125. A social construct designed to control men, just as femininity is a social construct designed

to control women.

Both together are designed to control the entire social order.

Having a well-ordered society can be a very good thing, but it's been done in a really fucked up way amongst most humans.

[Captain Hilts]

135. For once, I agree with you. nt

[Katherine Brengle]

172. That's good to hear :)

[baby_mouse]

142. I wonder if you and I are thinking of the same thing.

I think I can guess what you're referring to and I'd probably call that "macho bullshit", but you could correct me... I get the impression that you're talking about stereotypical "manliness", the fictionally represented idea of "Man", the self-perpatuating, conscious feedback loop that sustains itself as a myth. That's the *perception* of masculinity, and it's not really what I'm talking about.

I don't think masculinity is entirely explicable in terms of artifice, deception or the desire to control. I don't think masculinity is the product of a design. Not a conscious one at any rate. I think one needs to be careful to choose the best words one can in discussing such complex issues.

It seems more sensible to me to think of masculinity as a set of hard-wired psychological traits that are unfortunately easily exploited, extrapolated, exacerbated and exaggerated by unscrupulous individuals (or sometimes merely uneducated or unimaginative individuals, tending to be men, historically, I should add) to further their own aims, largely through the stereotypical "Man" construct. I think masculinity is a real thing that is separable from its cultural representation, and that it encompasses traits that are occulted by patriarchy, just as innumerable aspects of womanhood were occulted by patriarchy for centuries.

To suppose that men and women do not carry in their genes codes for instincts particular to their gender seems very odd to me, given the substantial preponderance of clear counter-examples to this supposition elsewhere in the animal kingdom. I don't propose that the difference need be very marked. Among the other great apes there is something of a blurring across gender boundaries in terms of role, the differences are there, but they are subtle. The assumption that humans are exempt from this kind of programming seems unfounded....

....providing it *is* an assumption, of course, if there is *evidence* that human psychology, unlike the rest of the animal kingdom, is brought about entirely through social input, I would very much like to see it. It would probably be very difficult to demonstrate empirically, so, to be fair, I don't simply throw the idea out. I know of some anecdotal data that lends some weight to the theory, but it's never been enough to convince me.

[Katherine Brengle]

174. I think that simplifying human personalities and interactions to a biological level

at this point in our evolution is sort of ridiculous. We've reached a point where we are capable of understand much of our own minds and bodies, and we have the ability to control our behavior and our destinies, we are not simple animals.

Yes, some aspects of our humanity are decided by genetics and biology, but there is so much more to our potential than that.

Of course there are differences - they are just not so vast as they seem, most of the ones we observe on a daily basis are learned behaviors.

[baby_mouse]

179. Totally.

I'm very much in agreement with you on that score. I certainly don't think any instinctive behaviour we've inherited exonerates us from any responsibilities, nor should it hold us back...

[Riktor]

182. I agree... and disagree

I'll be the first to admit the sweeping majority of human behavior can easily be explained as a function of society. However, even the most ardent of cognitive psychologists aren't willing to discount the influence of unconscious implicit behavior.

Take Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.



The lowest level of the pyramid, the physiological needs, must be satisfied before progressing up the pyramid. If these needs are not met, all behavior will be directed towards sating these basest of needs.

So, it really isn't an issue of biology naturally producing certain behaviors as it is an issue biology motivating certain behaviors. Therefore, it is at least somewhat important to understand mankind's evolutionary progression in order to identify potentially neurotic, ultimately destructive, behaviors.

Look at it this way: Poverty is extremely destructive to society because it forces people to direct their cognition towards satisfying very basic needs. All higher concepts become irrelevant, as the goal of the game isn't transcendence or realizing one's full potential, but merely survival. Thus, there is a perfectly sound, perfectly reasonable biological explanation for the behavior of society's most indigent constituents. Does this, in any way, suggest that poor people are genetically predisposed to violent or callous behavior?

I think not.

Rather, it says the biological drive to survive invariably supplants all other concerns, and anyone, regardless of their pedigree, could behave in a comparable manner if placed in comparable circumstances.

As history has shown, evolution has been widely misinterpreted and used to prop up a bullshit concept called "genetic determinism". I'm not going to go into detail here because I feel Stephen Jay Gould did a perfectly acceptable job debunking social Darwinism in "The Mismeasure of Man". However, just because social Darwinism is utter pseudo-scientific nonsense does not render biology completely irrelevant to human behavior, as a motivating factor. Therefore, it shouldn't be entirely discounted from discourse, especially in the region of sexual behavior.

[lumberjack_jeff]

220. Excellent. Thank you for that. n/t

[Katherine Brengle]

225. In that case, it looks like a class issue.

"Poverty is extremely destructive to society because it forces people to direct their cognition towards satisfying very basic needs."

I never thought about it that way, that's very interesting.

Of course, a truly civilized society would see to it that every person's basest needs were met, and would be able to focus on higher things.

And in the social classes that are lucky enough not to have to focus on the lowest level, there is no excuse.

[Riktor]

240. Essentially

Well, if our behavior is directed towards satisfying physiological and psychological needs, then class plays a huge part in how we behave. What resources we have access to and what we can accomplish is effectively limited by our socio-economic class. The lower classes have severely limited opportunities, which prevents them from fulfilling certain psychological or even physiological needs, which invariably leads to destructive behaviors.

Of course, the same may apply to the exceedingly wealthy. Celebrities tend to have a great deal of trouble satisfying their esteem and belonging needs, as they are fawned over and surrounded by people who love them just because they are famous. Just look at Britney Spears.

Anyway, Robert Wright makes a very compelling case against financial stratification in "The Moral Animal". I am aware of your feelings towards evolutionary psych., but it is an intriguing read nonetheless.

[warren pease]

163. Yes and yes again...

That's why, as a hetero male, I've been a feminist ever since I got an understanding of how the gender role dynamic seeks to keeps everybody in their place.

I took this great class in college called "sociology of sex roles," which was really more about characteristics ascribed to gender than sex roles per se. One of the course materials contained results of a study -- a two-year project involving thousands of interviews with demographically representative samples -- listing the same set of ascribed attributes for males and females, and then listing associations that respondents had given when a specific attribute was applied to males and then to females. I remember one very well:

Aggressive -- for males, respondents used terms like successful, masculine, get ahead in business, warrior, self-assured, winner and so forth. All responses were positive to neutral; no negatives.

Then, same attribute applied to women: bitch, whining, envious, threatened, careerist, masculine, insecure and on down the line. Every response was negative -- not even neutral and definitely not positive.

There were dozens of examples of this kind of linkage: attributes that elicited positives when ascribed to the male gender role and which drew mostly negative responses when applied to women.

This was 30-some years ago, and I wish I remembered more specifics. But I'll never forget that one instance: aggressive = successful for men; aggressive = bitch for women.

Myself, I'm wired a bit weirdly. I'm into brains and heart and knowledge and self-confidence. I love good talkers, and good listeners. Looks are, of course, a plus, but nowhere near the top of the list.

One of the most attractive women I know is a highly aggressive lawyer, dedicated leftist political activist, smart and articulate as hell, a great friend and a great conversationalist -- and a something degree black belt in karate, which means she could probably kill me, or at least break enough bones that I'd wish I were dead. She's no more a bitch than I am a Venusian.

Anyway, enough self-revelation and introspection. I just wanted to express agreement with your post, particularly the social control mechanism of keeping gender roles inside a controlled continuum of "appropriate" behavior.

And also to agree that this patrilineal, patriarchal nonsense we practice here, and just about everywhere else in the world, today is about the most artificial, restrictive, sexless, unconstructive and damaging way to organize a society I can imagine. All things considered, I'd probably rather be a New Guinea Highlander or a Samoan -- at least if Margaret Mead's study is still valid and the Samoans haven't yet been poisoned by US pop culture.

That is all. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

wp

[lumberjack_jeff]

219. I think that the patriarchy is a social construct designed to control men and women.

... But I have to think about whether I'd apply the same definition to masculinity and femininity.

My first reaction is no, that the genders exhibit different primary, and equally morally positive, values by virtue of our fundamental biology.

[baby_mouse]

234. Nicely put...

I don't know if you'd agree with me but I think separating men from the patriarchy is going to be quite a bit trickier than the (as yet incomplete) liberation of women.

[BlooInBloo]

133. The easiest thing for academic feminists to do in the face of such an awkward question...

... is to simply deny the existence of human nature all together. But they certainly can't allow the existence of masculinity (or its alleged opposite). For if they were to acknowledge that some things are natural to men, they would be thereby admitting that some things are NOT natural to women, which, in their view, is to give up a large part of what they've been fighting for these last 40+ years.

EDIT: Denying the existence of human nature is a tough row to hoe also. But I think it's the likely choice for the crowd in question.

EDITEDIT: It should be noted that the denial of the existence of anything interesting that deserves to be named "human nature" does NOT leave one all alone in the intellectual wilderness. It leaves them with Richard Rorty, for one example.

[renie408]

138. That's no fun. I LIKE masculinity. I like flirting with it and I like watching it lift heavy stuff.

I guess I am not a feminist.

[BlooInBloo]

139. Not an academic feminist, at any rate. :)

[lumberjack_jeff]

221. LOL!

Who has the power in the relationship, the guy doing the lifting or the person wielding the batted eyelash that wants the sofa carried up the stairs?

[Katherine Brengle]

251. Do you just like making stuff up?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

140. Masculinity is NOT the same as machismo

To me, machismo is mindless, aggressive swaggering, a compulsion to be the top dog, a chip on the shoulder, a disdain for all that is soft nurturing, beautiful, or intelligent, a belief that work, sports, and war are the only fit occupations for a man, a belief that "real men don't..." whatever.

Masculinity is quiet strength. It never seeks to fight, but it is willing to protect others. It has its own way of being nurturing, beautiful, and intelligent. It finds the golden mean between effeminacy and mindless machismo. It's tremendously attractive.

American pop culture models machismo, not masculinity.

[renie408]

141. Ding Ding Ding...I think we have ourselves a winner!! n/t

[baby_mouse]

158. I like yours best so far :D NT

[Lydia Leftcoast]

171. Thank you! Thank you!

I keep looking for masculine and finding macho. :-(

[SayWhatYo]

197. Makes sense to me...

:toast:

[noamnety]

198. Why is that masculinity?

"Masculinity is quiet strength. It never seeks to fight, but it is willing to protect others. It has its own way of being nurturing, beautiful, and intelligent. It finds the golden mean between effeminacy and mindless machismo. It's tremendously attractive."

Could you also say:

Femininity is quiet strength. It never seeks to fight, but it is willing to protect others. It has its own way of being nurturing, beautiful, and intelligent. It's tremendously attractive.

?

What is "its own way" of being nurturing, etc.?

What is effeminacy, up above there, exactly? Is that a reference to bad traits that women have? What traits are you referencing there?

It seems to me those things you just listed are attractive HUMAN qualities, but not more masculine than feminine, not gender specific.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

203. It's hard to describe, but I know it when I see it

:-)

By "effeminate," I mean the stereotype that macho-macho men have of the "girly man." In other words, a man who is not macho isn't necessarily feminine, contrary to the stereotype.

And yes, those are desirable HUMAN traits. Men (and women) are attractive to the extent that they avoid the extreme stereotypes for their gender and concentrate on being decent human beings. However, there is a typically male way to do this and a typically female way to do this.

I like the fact that men are different from women, but I don't like the extremes, either the macho-macho man or the simpering "little old ditzy me" woman.

[Ino]

143. Masculinity is... having a penis

That's all. That's what makes one masculine.

All the nonsense about strength, logic, blah blah is bullshit. If one woman is stronger than a man, she's masculine and he's not? She's less of a woman, and he's less of a man? Bull.

[baby_mouse]

156. Thank you for your interesting contribution. NEXT. NT.

[lightningandsnow]

168. If that's true...

Then what about transgender men? Are they less "male" because they lack a penis in a lot of cases?

[Ino]

200. Why do you put "male" in quotes?

Their bodies are not "less male"... they are female bodies.

As for how they FEEL... if they could replace the female bits with male ones... would that make them FEEL more "male", or just LOOK more male so they FEEL more comfortable in their bodies? I don't really know. But from what I've read it seems the physical image in their heads doesn't match the reality. They are the same person INSIDE no matter which body they have, no?

Which illustrates my point. Ascribing gender to mental/emotional traits is nonsense. Aside from penis/vagina, what makes one "masculine" or "feminine"? That line keeps shifting, doesn't it? It does a great disservice to both sexes to carry on doing that. He's brave, therefore masculine! He cries, therefore he's feminine. Hey, if he has a penis, he's male, no matter how he feels or what he does. A brave male. A sensitive male. A weak male. An asshole male. But a male.

Is the cowardly man-trapped-in-a-woman's-body less a man-trapped-in-a-woman's-body than one who's brave? Absurd.

The OP asked feminists what they think masculinity is. Well, there is nothing intrinsically masculine other than the equipment, IMO. Any other trait, women could very well possess too, and I hope they'd be "allowed" to do so without being branded "masculine."

[WinkyDink]

177. Being a mensch.

[Raksha]

195. But a woman can be a mensch too.

I grew up in a Yiddish-speaking family and I've heard that word used about women and girls--usually from my mother when I was slouching in my chair at the dinner table. She'd say to me: "Sit up like a mensch."

[Kurovski]

178. Basically: Having too much hair in all the wrong places. (nt)

[RainDog]

181. what is masculinity

this question is sort of strange to ask, esp. to someone who identifies as a feminist because you're not going to get the boilerplate answers.

as others have said, it's a word. semantics acknowledges that the word carries meaning in a cultural context. but even one word can have hundreds of meanings... something as simple as "well." well- water, well- health, well- pause for thoughts, WELL? - answer me now, well, well, well,- I've found out something, well? did you say well or wail? or whale? or wool? or will?

all that to just get to the "it depends" part of your question.

is masculine a gender signifier? is there a "sliding scale" of masculine? Does one person's masculine mean another persons repulsive 'roid whose cut lats conjure up images of a penis the size of a chihuahua's --

In terms of old-style (and somewhat wacky) socio-evo, masculine is status. Money or meat (not your own) to buy access to fertile females. But there are other males who use other strategies to spread their sperm... even tho a female may be with the alpha male, they also sneak off to be with other males - if more than one male thinks it's a father, the child is protected from physical harm and the preggers female may get more food to gestate. So it's not necessary to beat off the other homo sapes hanging around trying to vie for females (who, btw, are only interested in sex when ovulating and if they get preggers they generally don't ovulate for another three to four years.

if you look at the closest genetic relatives of humans. common chimps and pygmy chimps have two diff. social structures... and they're more like each other than like us. the difference is that bonobos use sex (in confinement at least) to soothe difficulties (this means male/male, male/female, female/female... usually rubbing one another's genitals...so I guess what I said about not being necessary to beat off other males isn't quite accurate...

And, I know, I know, why can't Bush and Cheney get together with Kim Jong-Il and the Ayatollahs and bin laden and work out some way to solve problems without murder. I think that same thing all the time. they're already mutually masturbating when it comes to big bad man rhetoric... do you think war is in part because men just don't rub each other the right way?

ba-dum. chhhhng (sorry, couldn't help myself)

anyway, the apes show us that change has been a pattern in our closest relatives, and that change within a short amt. of time (confinement by humans) has resulted in behavior modifications that help to maintain their social community.

masculine is a culturally proscribed word that is not the same all across the animal kingdom, or the human one. Male Seahorses (Seastuds?) gestate babies and care for them. some animal or bird species mate for life. some animals lay their eggs and walk off and never look back.

Feminists and others who do not live within the dominant culture by choice can tell you what the stereotype of masculine is easily. I'd bet most people could. But that's a fairly limited view considering the way in which we live now is very different than the way we lived even 1000 years ago.

[Nikia]

184. Where did you get the idea that human females are only interested in sex during ovulation

Or that it was ever that way. Humans stand apart from most other mammals in that we have a mensteral cycle rather than an esterus cycle. This means that our fertility is generally hidden and that we are interested in having sex even when we are not fertile.

[RainDog]

185. that's not what I said

pardon if I was unclear. I was talking about chimps and said they only wanted to have sex when they are in estrus.

and yes, female humans, on the other hand, have evolved so that their fertility is not overtly shown. I'm sorry if I was confusing to you. I did not mean what you thought I had written. quite to the contrary, in fact, to try to prove a point about great varieties w/i a small frame of evolutionary time.

[RainDog]

186. whoooops -hey- re: post 181. I meant chimps in that 2nd graph

I went back and read what I wrote and yes, it does appear that I was talking about humans. I meant to change the subject to chimps earlier and too much time has passed for me to edit the post. that's what I get for posting --

between runs to the zinfindel. :yoiks:

[Nevernose]

194. "Tough Guise?" Are you a manly-man or a girly-girl?

Anyone seen "Tough Guise?" I was thinking about showing it to my class and getting the ball rolling on the discussion, but before I dropped $125 on a video, I thought I'd ask.

I ask my students to write, during the first few weeks of school, the answer to the question, "Do you consider yourself to be a manly-man or a girly-girl?" The responses I get are invariably heartfelt and amazing. This year I've got 170-something-plus high school kids spread across five periods. I had ONE girl who claimed to be a "girly-girl" and TWO boys who claimed to be "manly-men." I use those phrases because that's what they're comfortable using and understand with the least explanation, and it lets them set their own definition.

That's 170 kids who said things like:

Yeah, I like make-up and I own a lot of shoes and worry about if a boy I like likes me back, but I like to play sports and watch action movies and stuff, too.

I like muscle cars but I don't really know anything about sports and I think about girls all the time, and I really liked High School Musical too but don't tell anyone or I'll kill you HAHAHA JK.

I think most of us will be pleasantly surprised by the way the latest generation's turning out. Yeah, they still do bad, bigoted things, but they're a hell of a lot different than when I was their age (not so long ago, in fact).

Our cultural paradigm is changing.

[noamnety]

199. I've seen that.

A screening of that was the hook that got me into our local feminist meetup. It was great.

Some of the movies from MEF can be gotten for free through inter-library loan. (I don't have a budget for buying their videos, sadly.)

I showed Game Over: Gender, Race and Violence in Video Games to my classes last year. The obvious connection to a big part of their culture definitely got the conversation rolling.

[seabeyond]

183. integrity, honesty, chivalry, protection of family

collect the bugs, fix my car.... basically any job that gets hands greasy and oily.

but no... i do not in anyway see masculinity as domination. all my very testosterone driven he males do not project their masculinity thru domination. i believe that is the hype of what maleness is suppose to be, but i think that is socially learned, not the innate of maleness.

per a female. so i dont count. here is my 12 yr old males definition

Strong Character, ability to put themselves into other peoples position, none of the tough, rowdy or manly junk, seeing beyond dimension, and also, doing something about anything wrong and providing optimistic support without damaging someones character.

[UncleSepp]

190. Straight lines and angles. High contrast.

Smooth but hard surfaces and defined shapes. Femininity is more rounded lines and curves, complementary shades, and softness. Beyond the artistic/aesthetic view, I really don't have an opinion. The whole thing always confused the crap out of me ;-)

[Samantha]

191. I think true masculinity exudes from any male who is totally comfortable

dealing with all types of females, even those truly independent and/or truly liberated. Make that word "females" in that last sentence "people." Masculinity has nothing to do with sexual preference, but is defined by one's comfort level, perhaps I should say confidence level, in dealing with all types of people by whom he is surrounded.

That's MY personal definition of a real man; again, sexual preference does not define masculinity.

Make any sense to you? I am sincere here....

BTW, I am a very feminine, straight female, reared by a Southern Baptist Conservative family from Tennessee. I throw that in because I think while I find that fact ironic, you might see it as humorous. One of the classic verses in the Bible I learned as a child and still live by today (although not as a Baptist) is judge not lest you be judged. I truly believe in that rule and live my life by it. Always have. I am totally comfortable around lesbian woman because I know whom I am, and I assume they do as well.

[Extend a Hand]

192. recently our 18 year old cat died

To me masculinity is
my son offering to carry the body of our old cat to the grave while I cried.
tears in my husbands eyes while he filled in the grave.

femininity is
staying up with the cat all night so he wouldn't die alone.

Masculinity and femininity are cultural concepts
while maleness and femaleness are defined biologically.

In western European cultures, masculinity is the drive to provide, protect and compete. Femininity is the desire to nurture, comfort, and beautify.

I think men and women have both masculine energy and feminine energy.
Within different cultures and subcultures, "acceptable" levels of feminine energy displayed by a male and masculine energy displayed by a female vary.

[Name removed]

201. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Riktor]

206. On the term "feminists"

"Feminism" is defined as a movement towards affording the same social, political, and economic rights of men to women. There's nothing particularly negative about that, in my opinion.

With that said, there has always been a vocal contingent of misandrists disguised as feminists. They are the ones touting the superiority of the female sex while deriding males they've never even met. They are every bit as despicable and prejudiced and racial bigots, and have consistently done nothing but give feminism a bad name in the eyes of men who would otherwise sympathize with the movement.

So, I have to say, don't let the blatantly asinine opinions of loudmouthed hate-mongers influence your opinion of feminism. It is a noble cause that any reasonable, progressive man should embrace with open arms.

[BlooInBloo]

207. C'mon. Just call them "feminazis". You know you want to.

[Name removed]

210. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlooInBloo]

216. Holy shit - you're *serious*. ROFLMAO!!!!!

[Skittles]

208. LOL

OMG you are simply pitiful

[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skittles]

212. couldn't be any OTHER reason why women avoid you

no INDEED

[baby_mouse]

214. Not true at all!

I know loads of feminists. NONE of them think all men are "evil scum".

What a silly post.

[undeterred]

231. I'm a feminist, and I really like men.

I sort of missed out on the notice that "feminist" became a negative, man-hating word. To me it mostly means taking on a more positive, powerful meaning of femininity.

I like men, and the only real frustration I have is with men who actually deny that inequality between men and women exists in our (in every) society. Its not something than individual men can or should take the blame for, but at the same time, the inequality does affect every individual woman.

I'm talking about economic inequality and violence against women, two things that every female runs up against sooner or later. And while individual males may never participate in these things, if they aren't sympathetic to the fact that they exist and affect women, or if they deny it, that's when women get angry. :shrug:

[baby_mouse]

233. I'm a man and I think feminists are great!

For one thing, they're a great deal less likely to stereotype *me*.

[undeterred]

235. And you're less likely to stereotype us too!

:hi:

[BlooInBloo]

238. A lot of guys think of it as being zero-sum. To be positive about women...

... *MEANS* being negative about men.

[Katherine Brengle]

252. Exactly - someone has to be the winner and someone the loser when your

entire basis for understand human relationships is based on the domination model.

[Forkboy]

241. "That's why I've given up on dating."

Might be for the best.I doubt you could find a woman who would want to be with you anyways.

[seabeyond]

245. i am a feminist, happily married to a man, with two healthy, smart boys

a fATHER i deeply respect and two brothers that continually come to me for love.... all very masculine men. none of them feel as you do... nor do i fit in you definition of how i feel about men.

[Katherine Brengle]

250. That's us. We haaaatez teh menz.

You need to read a book and stop pitying yourself.

[JVS]

202. Knowing what's important: beer, video games, and good tunes

[Riktor]

209. A Marketing Ploy

"Masculine" is a marketing ploy which plays heavily on mankind's cognitive desire to be accepted. It has been used to hawk everything from Gillette razors to Marlboro Cigarettes, and in no way does it represent the attitudes and behaviors of men as a whole. In fact, no word can describe the attitudes and behaviors of men as a whole because every man is different.

[Hepburn]

222. What is masculinity?

First, let me define who and what I am: Straight, female, senior citizen and a West Coast liberal and long time war protester.

Second, masculinity is what any individual is comfortable with as to his or her definition or feelings. There is no right way and no wrong way to be masculine. For me it is one thing....for someone else, it may be a totally different thing. Who is to say who is right or wrong on this? And who is to say a particular person ~~ be the person male or female ~~ is too masculine or not masculine enough.

[Book Lover]

226. I think masculinity is something

I really have no say in defining.

[baby_mouse]

227. Why not? NT

[Book Lover]

247. Because only men can define it

Just as only women can define feminism.

[devilgrrl]

228. What's a "feminist"?

:popcorn:

[baby_mouse]

232. Can, meet opener. Baby_mouse, meet worms.

Broadly speaking, a feminist is someone who works towards the liberation of women from social structures that do not benefit them.

Good start?

[seabeyond]

246. going with question of masculinity, the opposite would be femininity

not feminist. i think both would have their own definitions.

[WindRavenX]

239. nothing more than a social construct.

Biological sex? Now that's easier to grasp.

[applegrove]

242. Masculinity is about being a man. Being a man is about responsibility. Same thing for women.

[travelingtypist]

243. I couldn't tell you.

It's not about being sexist or having the need to feel superior
to women. I know that much.

I went from a man-hating feminist to a feminist who's also a girl
who loves men. It was a long journey. I know it when I see it
is about as specific as I can get.

There's sort of a feeling of stillness or depth, kind of like feeling
safe and protected, absolutely.

[nemo137]

248. My dad always defined it in terms of responsibility.

Never really in opposition to femininity, but it had a good deal to do with being able to provide for your family, and an absolute trustworthiness, the idea that a man's word is his bond.

One of my dad's big conflicts was whether or not to quit a job that he hated, but that kept us comfortable, paid my sister's medical bills, and let us save while my mom was unemployed. Looking back, and thinking about what he told me, I think that it struck at his idea of what being a man was, more than anything else.

I'm the only son, and this is what I got from my dad. He took a hard right turn towards fundementalism when I was fairly grown up, so I'm not sure what my much younger sister's getting as her view of masculinity from my dad.

[BlooInBloo]

249. Whatever straight girls like about boys.