Brokaw was on Tavis last night: repeated the meme about GIs returning from Nam being spat upon

[Bozita]

Somehow I wasn't surprised.

Here's the audio:
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200711/20071112.html

I thought that Professor Lembcke put that away in 2000.

http://www.slate.com/id/1005224/

-snip-

Lembcke uncovered a whole lot of spitting from the war years, but the published accounts always put the antiwar protester on the receiving side of a blast from a pro-Vietnam counterprotester. Surely, he contends, the news pages would have given equal treatment to a story about serviceman getting the treatment. Then why no stories in the newspaper morgues, he asks?

Lastly, there are the parts of the spitting story up that don't add up. Why does it always end with the protester spitting and the serviceman walking off in shame? Most servicemen would have given the spitters a mouthful of bloody Chiclets instead of turning the other cheek like Christ. At the very least, wouldn't the altercations have resulted in assault and battery charges and produced a paper trail retrievable across the decades?

The myth persists because: 1) Those who didn't go to Vietnam--that being most of us--don't dare contradict the "experience" of those who did; 2) the story helps maintain the perfect sense of shame many of us feel about the way we ignored our Vietvets; 3) the press keeps the story in play by uncritically repeating it, as the Times and U.S. News did; and 4) because any fool with 33 cents and the gumption to repeat the myth in his letter to the editor can keep it in circulation. Most recent mentions of the spitting protester in Nexis are of this variety.

As press crimes go, the myth of the spitting protester ain't even a misdemeanor. Reporters can't be expected to fact-check every quotation. But it does teach us a journalistic lesson: Never lend somebody a sympathetic ear just because he's sympathetic.

-snip-

[theoldman]

1. I have always thought that these stories were overblown.

None of my friends in Vietnam ever mentioned having problems when they returned. It's the same kind of crap that Democrats wish we would lose the war in Iraq. They like me wish the war was winnable and not a disaster.

[TahitiNut]

2. Lembcke also claimed that PTSD was political rather than medical

Like clockwork, some a**h*le has to resurrect this shit about 3-4 times a year on DU, no matter how it was thrashed out before, and before that, and before that.

Lembcke is full of shit. Period.

[BOSSHOG]

3. I am a Vietnam Era Vet

Served in the Navy from 72 on. I DID NOT SERVE IN VIETNAM but during my time in transit or on leave or in public I was never hounded about my military status, and never spit upon.

I think it would be fair to say that all the high and mighty war mongering conservative republican chickenhawks in congress and on the airwaves who spent an incredible amount of effort getting out of serving spat upon our troops, at least in a symbolic sense. And as they continue to beat the drums for never ending war now, their spitting continues.

[Cha]

23. You betcha! And, it's a

real fucking drag that tom brokaw, who should know better, continues this.

[Thothmes]

43. Neither was I

As a matter of fact traveling in uniform was usually good for a couple of free beers while waiting to board air liners.

[BOSSHOG]

46. I certainly believe

any servicemember who says they were abused by civilians in this country after Viet Nam, but sometimes the message from those not in the know is that the practice was pervasive and that it happened often to all servicemembers. Ergo, all stinking liberal hippie scum hate people in uniform. Hell, I did 20+ years and I consider myself a liberal hippie scum and I'd never abuse or berate a man or woman in uniform.

I recall flying on airlines in uniform in the early 90's and getting applauded; even walking through airports. That was pretty awesome, but I didn't think deserved. I'd just as soon cheer for plumbers and electricians and the mailman.

[TahitiNut]

50. It's a "baby and bathwater" thing, I think.

It seems that the eagerness of some to throw out the bathwater of blame (i.e. ascribing such behavior to anti-war "hippies") impels them to discard the baby of the actual occurrence of such incidents. In so doing, imho, they add injury to insult. I was most welcomed 'home' by 'hippies' ... just liberal, compassionate, peaceniks actually. It's absolutely impossible to ascribe some social or political affiliation to the perps. (It's not like they wore uniforms or presented ID.) In the years since, we probably got to a point where 60-80% of the folks (wannabe's) claiming such experience were lying about damned near everything regarding their 'service' - it was a bizarre time. Faux "vets" were coming out of the woodwork. As a result, it just added more mud and dirt to be thrown at guys who actually served in Nam. Nauseating.

[Thothmes]

63. Fully Agree

[lurky]

4. I heard some guy on the radio yesterday

who said he had red paint thrown on him and was called a baby killer.
Could this be real?

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. In his mind it's true

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. It's true, it's true.

I saw video of a dirty hippie spitting on a hero soldier in that documentary "Forrest Gump."

[Medical Speaking]

6. Viet-Nam

When I returned home to Detroit in July 1967 I was, and I repeat was spat at and was called a baby killer. Not a very good home coming. Then I went into 2 years of drinking and got my head out of my ass in 1969. Today I run my own company here in Michigan but have never fogotten that day.

Semper Fi

[TahitiNut]

7. Welcome to the club. You'll probably be called a liar on DU like I've been.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=259x2867

To be more precise ...

You disgusting, lying piece of filth! I bet my life savings you never even served! You punk ass bitch. I so exposing your lying ass.

Read it and weep you fuckface liar:

Sweet, huh? :eyes:

[Medical Speaking]

9. Yes it is

I can take it I have for many years and even from the Chickenhawks the Bush Administration.

SemperFi and
Good Luck

[devilgrrl]

16. Was that written before or after you told people to go "fuck themself" if they didn't believe you?

Yeah. That was just as nice. :eyes:

"this really happened to me. If you don't believe me, go fuck yourself!"

Yep, your tone was so convincing. :eyes:

BTW, have you ever confronted Jerry Lembcke over this?

[DS1]

51. wow!

[brentspeak]

54. What difference does his "tone" have to do with some whack-job PMing him

with this:

You disgusting, lying piece of filth! I bet my life savings you never even served! You punk ass bitch. I so exposing your lying ass.

Read it and weep you fuckface liar:

?

TahitiNut's "tone" was appropriate, as far as I'm concerned. I don't understand your rationale for equating his comment and the whack-job's screed.

[devilgrrl]

56. Because that's how he responded in a thread questioning the validity of the "myth"

in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x257744

He knows what I'm talking about..... notice that he hasn't responded.

Does that answer your question?

Also, please do take notice that I put "myth" in quotation marks because have since bought his version of the story!

[Sequoia]

20. I thought you were female for some reason.

Because you seemed compassionate. (Not that men don't feel that way of course)

So that other post with the handsome photograph is you? Cool medal with that dragon running through bamboo. Sorry you had to be treated that way. You think that DUer who wrote that is actually a troll?

[TahitiNut]

25. (grin) Well, maybe my "inner child" is a girl. (If so, she's a tomboy.)

Yup. That's a photo of me. I took all the photos except the ones at the beginning, of Levitow and the plane.
The DUer (still active) who wrote that is (imho) a "bunny boiler" - a few cards short of a euchre deck.


On edit: Insofar as being 'compassionate' ... I'd like to think so. I've worked in support programs and counseling activities (as a volunteer) and have had many "peeks" into the lives of others - things that are almost unspeakably horrible, including sexual abuse. In the vast majority of cases, I found myself looking at HEROES who were sharing these experiences with me - people showing a resilience and courage that humbled me. So, I pretty much abandoned the (stereotypically male) "whistling through the graveyard" braggadocio a long time ago.

[Duffer29]

39. bunny boiler

i like that.
although i didn't go (draft#222 in 71) many of my friend did.
the spitting, paint throwing, and name calling did indeed happen.
at least in cleveland, ohio.
as a "long haired hippie freak" i was disgusted by the way my friends were greeted.

as an edit, a previous poster wondered why the soldiers didn't fight back, they did.
very confusing times

[abq e streeter]

37. I never said anything but welcome home brother, glad you made it back.

I'm embarrassed that anyone of my generation would do and say that; I'd like to apologize from the bottom of my heart to you and medical speaking for the fact that sadly, the right wing doesn't have a monopoly on ignorant hate filled assholes.. And the Duer who wrote that to you is a disgrace.

[Mad_Dem_X]

44. That's horrible!

There is no excuse for that kind of language or behavior, especially towards a vet and especially at a place like DU. I am so sorry you had to go through that!

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Then you need to contact the people who have studied this legend

and found no proof it ever happened.

[TahitiNut]

24. Why?

To get dissed? Yeah, right. :eyes:

Lembcke (if you'll read his crap) requires a newspaper clipping, police report, or equivalent ... and refuses to believe first-hand reports without such "documentation." He has an agenda - to dismiss ALL such reports and in that way to EXONERATE 'hippies' (the "anti-war left") from being blamed. The fact of the matter is, the political ideologies of folks who did this are totally irrelevant. In those days, as I've said repeatedly, it was customary for folks in the military to call ANYONE in their early 20s, wearing the then-current clothing style, and having longer hair a "hippie." Furthermore, I don't find it surprising in the least that the right would hijack such events and shift he blame. I mean, what the hell else is new?

[karynnj]

29. That's crazy that he expected a police report or newspaper clipping

It was a volatile time. In fact, it was really strange seeing the anti-war footage that was in Going Up River when George Butler tried to explain the situation in 1969. He did not choose major confrontations, but just scenes of miles and miles of protesters. Seeing it as an adult, having been a college student in the late 60s early 70s, I really came away impressed with my own parents, who trusted the kids they raised. From an adult perspective with kids in their teens and early 20s now, the 60s movements had to be scary times.

To argue that all hippies were well behaved would defy reason.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. oops

dupe

[TahitiNut]

34. www.freerepublic.com???

:eyes:

I don't have to "look into it." I know what happened to me. I've read these brain-dead 'discussions' many times and pointed out their idiocy. I've also pointed out that there were MANY guys bizarrely claiming to be Viet nam vets who obviously weren't. It was bizarre. Many/most of us (draftees) did the best we could to merge back in and avoid the "leprosy" of being known as a "Viet nam vet." Right around the time The Wall was built on the Mall, it seemed like guys came out of the woodwork. Wannabes. It doesn't surprise me that their "stories" wouldn't hold up. But it's completely specious to claim something didn't happen at all just because of a pack of wannabe's trying to gain some self-importance by claiming to have served in Nam when they didn't.

Oh ... and the crap about airports. Yes, the MAC flight I was on left Bien Hoa, stopped in Guam and Alaska, and then landed at Travis AFB in California. We were then bussed to Oakland Army Base for out-processing. At that point, those of us who ETS'd got travel orders that would get us a military standby flight ... AT A CIVILIAN AIRPORT. We Army draftees went to Nam and came back from Nam by ourselves ... and those like me had to find our way 'home' using our orders, a travel voucher, and whatever mustering out pay we had left. So, it was to SFO for a flight to DTW. That's the way it worked.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Lembcke is not the only one who has looked into this

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1276799/posts

STORIES ABOUT spat-upon Vietnam veterans are like mercury: Smash one and six more appear. It's hard to say where they come from. For a book I wrote in 1998 I looked back to the time when the spit was supposedly flying, the late 1960s and early 1970s. I found nothing. No news reports or even claims that someone was being spat on.

What I did find is that around 1980, scores of Vietnam-generation men were saying they were greeted by spitters when they came home from Vietnam. There is an element of urban legend in the stories in that their point of origin in time and place is obscure, and, yet, they have very similar details. The story told by the man who spat on Jane Fonda at a book signing in Kansas City recently is typical. Michael Smith said he came back through Los Angeles airport where ''people were lined up to spit on us."

Like many stories of the spat-upon veteran genre, Smith's lacks credulity. GIs landed at military airbases, not civilian airports, and protesters could not have gotten onto the bases and anywhere near deplaning troops. There may have been exceptions, of course, but in those cases how would protesters have known in advance that a plane was being diverted to a civilian site? And even then, returnees would have been immediately bused to nearby military installations and processed for reassignment or discharge.

The exaggerations in Smith's story are characteristic of those told by others. ''Most Vietnam veterans were spat on when we came back," he said. That's not true. A 1971 Harris poll conducted for the Veterans Administration found over 90 percent of Vietnam veterans reporting a friendly homecoming. Far from spitting on veterans, the antiwar movement welcomed them into its ranks and thousands of veterans joined the opposition to the war.
http://forum.americasarmy.com/viewtopic.php?t=162789&highlight=

Lastly, there are the parts of the spitting story up that don't add up. Why does it always end with the protester spitting and the serviceman walking off in shame? Most servicemen would have given the spitters a mouthful of bloody Chiclets instead of turning the other cheek like Christ. At the very least, wouldn't the altercations have resulted in assault and battery charges and produced a paper trail retrievable across the decades?

The myth persists because: 1) Those who didn't go to Vietnam--that being most of us--don't dare contradict the "experience" of those who did; 2) the story helps maintain the perfect sense of shame many of us feel about the way we ignored our Vietvets; 3) the press keeps the story in play by uncritically repeating it, as the Times and U.S. News did; and 4) because any fool with 33 cents and the gumption to repeat the myth in his letter to the editor can keep it in circulation. Most recent mentions of the spitting protester in Nexis are of this variety.
http://www.slate.com/id/1005224/

Many of the current stories are accompanied by stories of spat-upon Vietnam veterans. The recent story of spitting in Asheville, for example, was traced to a local businessman who says he is a veteran who was also spat upon and called a "baby killer" when he returned from Vietnam. An Associated Press story of April 9 reported stories of spat-upon Vietnam veterans surfacing in several cities including Spicer, Minnesota whose mayor said he was spat upon in the San Francisco airport while coming home from Vietnam in 1971.

Similar stories became quite popular during the Gulf War of 1991 which raised my curiosity about where they came from and why they were believed. There is nothing in the historical record — news or police reports, for example — suggesting they really happened. In fact, the Veterans Administration commissioned a Harris Poll in 1971 that found 94% of Vietnam veterans reporting friendly homecomings from their age-group peers who had not served in the military. Moreover, the historical record is rich with the details of solidarity and mutuality between the anti-war movement and Vietnam veterans. The real truth, in other words, is that anti-war activists reached out to Vietnam veterans and veterans joined the movement in large numbers.

Stories of spat-upon Vietnam veterans are bogus. Born out of accusations made by the Nixon administration, they were enlivened in popular culture (recall Rambo saying he was spat on by those maggots at the airport) and enhanced in the imaginations of Vietnam-generation men — some veterans, some not. The stories besmirch the reputation of the anti-war movement and help construct an alibi for why we lost the war: had it not been for the betrayal by liberals in Washington and radicals in the street, we could have defeated the Vietnamese. The stories also erase from public memory the image, discomforting to some Americans, of Vietnam veterans who helped end the carnage they had been part of.
http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=350

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Having seen this recently

I will not call you a killer, or a liar...

Can I offer my apology for those who cannot understand that it did happen? What is more, it is happening

[yardwork]

22. I'll take your word for it, and I'm sorry that happened to you.

[Bozita]

38. What was your return date? To Detroit?

[TahitiNut]

48. 38 years ago today ... November 14, 1969

My (revised) ETS was November 15, 1969. Again, you can view a slighty redacted (to preserve at least SOME personal privacy) image of my DD-214, even showing the "SPiN" number, at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=259x2867

[OzarkDem]

40. Was it after the My Lai Massacre?

I'm just curious, wondering if all the anger and upset over that incident caused some people to react that way.

Of course it was wrong for them to engage in such behavior, but I'm wondering what the precipitating factors would be.

[TahitiNut]

49. It's possible, although I somewhat doubt it.

The My Lai Massacre occurred in March 1968. The first that the general public in the U.S. would hear about it would be just a couple of days before I returned. Seymour Hirsch 'broke' the story on November 12, 1969, but the coverage in news mags didn't hit the stands until November 20. I don't remember knowing anything about it myself until the next year. (I had my mind on more immediate concerns, to say the least.)

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Everyone who believes this needs to see SIR NO SIR

There is a man in that movie (I think he is a sociologist?) and he studied this urban myth. It's a myth.

[Lilith Velkor]

55. My uncle got spat on by a dude in a suit

He said there used to be freeper-types back then who would see a man in uniform and get all pissed off because they weren't over there winning the war.

The hippies, OTOH, never bothered him.

Funny how you never hear about conservative spitters.

[LSK]

10. and yet Vets like John Kerry and Ron Kovic became anti-war leaders

How did they do that when they were being spat on?

Once again the facts don't match the old wives tales.

[karynnj]

28. That is really not inconsistent

Assume that protesters spitting on vets was commonplace (beyond even the urban legend.) How would that have changed John Kerry's passionate belief that he needed to tell the truth and possibly get the US to change its policy? From all accounts, he was motivated by his concern for the soldiers still there and love of country. He never joined the factions of the anti-war movement that were blamed for spitting on soldiers. Nor was he accepted by many of the more radical.

Though I can't find the link, someone once posted a link to an interview with Kerry from 1971 or 1972 after he testified. The questions show how far from that time period we have moved. He was asked if it bothered him that other anti-war people called him a hypocrite for having served in Vietnam. Kerry, flashed a pained grin, saying that he was called far worse things by them. The interviewer herself also was caught kind of unprepared because she was asking Kerry about meetings he was to have with someone in the Nixon administrations. She couldn't get how he thought they could stop the war. He was explaining that he was advocating with them to improve veterans health services. She really didn't get it.

The point is that Kerry was antiwar, but always pro-soldiers. He intentionally did NOT allow the anti-war movement to redefine who he was.

(I think Kovacks was the same, but I don't know enough to claim that.) Whether it happened or not - once, occasionally or often is what the study investigated. What doesn't exist are many first hand accounts of people saying they personally were spat at. At a 2006 PTSD film premiere at the Kennedy center, many people including Cleland and Kerry spoke. PTSD was the main topic, but Kerry spoke of that many Vietnam Veterans did not feel welcomed back. That feeling and the reality that many did not get the medical care promised and many were jobless and homeless, may have led to the "spit on" myth almost as a poetic depiction of how they felt they were received.

We had GIs coming back at the state university I went too. For the most part, they often chose not to even mention that part of their life to most people. Most of us knew high school classmates who went - so demonizing the soldiers was harder. Also, most of the college student protesters had grown up in the 1950s. We had long hair, liked rebellious music, but no one I knew would ever have thought it appropriate to spit at anyone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. You know about nine months ago

I went to the local Starbucks, the one I can barely afford these days.

Outside sat a VET from the current war...

One self important rightie spat on him

No I am not making this up.

The responding officer didn't take kindly to the assault, since he is not only in the reserves and has had some fun in coutry but his son is in the Marines... but he did not arrest him since they were too busy... but issued a ticket.

I asked the young man does this happen often?

It depends on the area of town

Then it dawned on me

In the sixties, you can bet it happened... probably the same way I witnessed it... a rightie angry that the troops were loosing his war. And in time the meme came, as projection, that it was the left.

I know it sounds crazy... but after seeing that and assisting the young vet... he had some coffee on me... whatever he wanted... I can bet that this happened but not quite the way the meme has spread since.. if ye catch my drift. Oh and this vet, he is on the leading edge of the homeless crisis. We tried to convince him to go to the local shelter to try to get his life back together. Even after he's been out the country he has the thousand mile stare and nightares fill every waking and sleeping moment. I just hope he doesn't use a gun, if you catch my drift. We as a society are responsible.

[OzarkDem]

42. Shocking

What did the right wing guy say? Did he try to justify it?

[mulsh]

14. many hippies were vets,many more were sweating the draft

like me, I was a young kid but even at the tender age of 10/11 I knew it was only a matter of time before I was drafted. I never saw any of my fellow war protesting hippies spit on anyone. I helped start the only grammar school chapter of the Students for a Democratic Society. Most of the chatter at the meetings I attended centered around ending the war and way to resist the draft. those are some of the reasons I think the "spitting on Vets" story is bullshit.

[Red Zelda]

15. I remember the TV ad

where the incredulous vet says he was in a cab and told the cabbee that he just got back from Vietnam and the cabbee said, "so what."
I recall as a kid thinking that I guess we were all supposed to salute like the guy just liberated Paris.
I was a strange time.

[devilgrrl]

17. Did he also repeat the meme that Americans don't want a President that's a thinker?

Tom Brokaw SUCKS!

[Feron]

19. It's not hard to believe that a few activists are simply assholes.

I have no reason to disbelieve veterans who say that they were spat on. It isn't just Freepers. And just because it didn't happen to you, your friend/relative, or person X, doesn't mean that it never happened.

IMO trying to spin away history that is unfavorable only reinforces the belief that anti-war activists are anti-soldier.

Now I don't think it was as commonplace as some claim, but I don't have any doubt that it did indeed happen.

[TahitiNut]

26. I think you're looking at it realistically.

We have to remember that, in the 80s, there were 3-4 times as many guys CLAIMING to be Viet Nam veterans as actually served (2.6 million) in Viet Nam. It wouldn't surprise me if they claimed such things. It doesn't mean it didn't happen (it did) just like it doesn't mean nobody served in Viet Nam (we did).

[Cha]

27. Oh, yeah...history shows..

anyone can be an extreme asshole.

I was around then but I wasn't an activist..I was just having babies(accidently) so my then husband wouldn't have to go to Viet Nam and be slaughtered.

[Cha]

21. Poor brokaw..

is he schitziod or something? He's suppose to be this revered tv anchor guy but otoh he spouts propoganda to what agenda? Is it GE? Or What?

What else did he have to say on Tavis and how did Tavis respond? Thank you, Bozita!

[WHAT]

32. Another teat on the bull...

shit of corporate media.

[VOX]

33. The challenge lies in the similarity of all the Vietnam-era "spitting" stories...

It doesn't mean such incidents didn't occur altogether, but it does tend to give credence to the story as urban legend. The stories are often extraordinarily similar, and usually have the following motifs:

-GI is spat upon in a large civilian airport or bus station
-GI is always in uniform
-GI is usually called "baby killer"
-The spitter is often female, either a "flower child" teenager or an elderly woman
-GI never looses temper or spits back, just takes the insult silently and placidly
-There are never any airport security personnel present to intervene or take a report

I was a teenager during the Vietnam era (high lottery number), and I lived near a major international airport on the West Coast. I never personally heard of any such incidents, nor did I ever hear or know of anyone going to the airport to spit on GIs (how would anyone even know the exact time when a group of GIs would be routing through, anyway?). In my experience, anti-war anger was not directed at GIs -- they were just kids, too -- our brothers, neighbors, friends -- caught up in something not of their own making.

Again, this is not to say that any spitting incidents didn't happen. I don't think anyone will ever know the extent to which they may (or may not) have occurred.

Although it's a fact that all returning Vietnam-era GIs were collectively spat upon by their own government, given the way they were ignored, had their benefits slashed, etc.

[TahitiNut]

35. Let me (again) attempt to dispel some misconceptions.

First, I speak from my one experience as an Army draftee who ETS'd (expiration of term of service = "got out") upon return from Nam.

We DIDN'T travel in "groups." We were sent over and came back as individuals, not in units. Oakland Army Base was out-processing guys 24x7 as far as I remember. I think guys could take a billet (bunk and meal) if they needed to, but it was a matter of hot-footing it to a airport to grab a plane. (For some, it was a night on the town.) We didn't wait around to form any kind of group - because we were focused on getting 'home' and because the guys leaving OAB at the same time might be going ANYWHERE. In some cases, their family traveled to meet them at OAB - if they were relatively close, could afford it, and the guy had a DEROS that went according to schedule. (Mine didn't. MANY of us at that time were "early outs" and didn't know until a day or two before leaving Nam.)

We were required to travel in uniform (greens) to qualify for military standby. I don't recall having any option.

I'd spent ten months getting shot at and taking cover from incoming (mortars and RPGs). Spittle is NOT life-threatening. At the same time, we were cautioned (as though we needed it??) that getting into trouble was NOT a good idea ... and was CERTAINLY not the way to get 'home' promptly. It's frustrating as hell to try to get it through somebody's thick skull that, after counting down the days EVERY day, the last thing a guy would do is delay going home. It. Just. Wouldn't. Happen.

"Airport Security Personnel"??? Where? (Keerist!) There was no TSA in those days. There was no metal detector keeping folks out of the concourse. Hell .. friends and family used to meet folks or see them off AT THE GATE. What "security" existed might be at baggage return, sitting in some office, or drinking coffee ... they sure weren't running around everywhere.

[Crabby Appleton]

36. TahitiNut is completely correct in this matter. nt

[OzarkDem]

41. I'm reading an old book about Kent State massacre

"13 minutes", written by Joe Eszterhaus when he was a reporter at the Cleveland Plain Dealer. He wasn't at Kent State when it happened, but arrived there a couple of hours later, then spent the next couple of months interviewing everyone who was there. The book was written shortly after Kent State, so it isn't slanted by revisionist history.

Anyway, he mentions in the book that during the rally prior to the shootings, among the phrases the students were chanting was "bring our troops home now". A few weeks ago while looking at old photos and newsreels of Vietnam anti-war demonstrations, I saw a lot of people chanting similar things and carrying banners with messages about protecting the troops and bringing them home.

I'm bringing this up just to clear up some of the revisionism that has happened since then. While you and other returning vets experienced some damn ugly behavior upon returning home, it was the exception more than the rule. The anti-war movement was very supportive of the soldiers serving in Vietnam. Their antiwar messages back then were just as specific about supporting our troops and bringing them home as the antiwar messages today. Most of the protesters had friends and relatives who had been drafted to serve in Vietnam and it was very personal to them.

Just sayin.

[TahitiNut]

52. Different activists drew the "line" at different points.

In the 80s, after I moved to the Bay Area, I met and started to date an attractive gal who lived in Atherton (VERY affluent family) who was at UC Berkeley and part of a self-described group of female students/activists proclaiming "girls who say 'yes' to guys who say 'no'." When I 'admitted' being a Viet Nam veteran and draftee, she went off on me in a totally bizarre way. She was 'able' to tell me what I thought and how I was misguided and criminal -- and anything I had to say that wasn't consistent with what she 'knew' was a 'lie.' I felt like I was with an insane person. She literally called me a "baby-killer" ... and it was in the mid-80s. Well, needless to say, I beat a hasty retreat. I received a dozen roses and an apology from her soon afterward, but I wasn't inclined to handle the nitroglycerin of such a relationship.

So ... at least SOME of the anti-war activists (very much like on DU today) regard the troops as war criminals themselves. I've seen DUers post very similar sentiments about the troops today. So, while I CERTAINLY don't ascribe hostility to the troops to even the majority of anti-war activists (either today or then), I'm nowhere nearly naive enough to think there aren't some who possess some very deep-seated animosities - easily enough to spit. Even on DU.

[OzarkDem]

59. It saddens me, but no doubt these things happened

There are always those in any movement who have extreme beliefs or are vulnerable to believing dogma and refuse keep an open mind, regardless of evidence.

These people were in the minority and though my antiwar activities were limited back then, I never encountered anyone who felt hostile towards vets. But I do see how some could turn that way if they allow their emotions and passion to get out of hand.

I'm sorry you and others had to go through that, its wrong and no one should have to be subjected to it.

[TahitiNut]

60. Well, it gets worse when attacked for just describing the experience.

Like I've said many times, spittle isn't life-threatening. But in terms of "insults," it's a greater insult to be called a liar (and/or coward) when honestly describing one's experience than the experience itself. It's one thing to be treated that way in passing by some moronic 20-somethings back in 1969 who were caught up in the fervor of a "cause" (usually just arrogant self-righteousness) and quite another to have to suffer the venomous disbelief of folks who weren't even there, a disbelief exacerbated by so many post-war Faux Vets ("wannabes") who never set foot in Vietnam. (It's my understanding that as many as thirteen million people claimed to be Vietnam vets in a polling done in 2000 - when only one million actual Vietnam vets were left alive.) That's a lot of bathwater and fewer and fewer "babies."

I fully expect, after the last actual Vietnam vet dies, that the "body politic" will expel a whole lot of 'memories' and a kind of historical revisionism will proceed without the nuisance of people who were actually there. Some day, any suggestion of hostile treatment toward returning vets will probably be ascribed to either "myth" or "their fault" (whichever "they" is convenient).

[IndianaJones]

45. my dad was in Vietnam and died as a result of agent orange exposure....

he was verbally attacked and had several people spit at him when in uniform shortly after returning. I do not believe he lied about his experiences.

[mitchum]

58. Then, his government killed him...not "spitting hippies"

[Major Hogwash]

47. I didn't know Brokaw would talk to a black man.

That's a first.

[book_worm]

53. I'm sure some were, but I doubt it was wide spread.

[treestar]

57. Exactly, and some of those incidents could have had

personal aspects - the parties got into an argument. If it was "protestors" then pro-war types would conflict with the protestors no matter who they were.

It is the type of veteran who expects uncritical support for the war that would exaggerate and get involved in this stuff. Every group has its right wing nutjobs and surely even amongst veterans, you have that - there's that group that didn't want the Veterans for Peace to march for them.

[symbolman]

61. It DID happen, unfortunately...

to me.

In uniform, and at an airport, got called a baby killer at the same time.. About 1972 or so..

Wasn't coming back from 'Nam, but it still did happen, sorry to burst any balloons out there :)

But I never had another GI tell me THEY were spat upon..

Really sucked too, as all I wanted to do then was cut my hair and smoke dope :)

[TahitiNut]

62. A DU search will also reveal that Monkeyman (may he R.I.P.) described being spat at.

So, every time this festering boil erupts on DU, I wish the denialists would take the time to reflect that Dale (a trusted and respected member of this virtual - if not virtuous - community) also had such an experience. It's a wonder that any of us would have the temerity to actually tell the truth about our experiences given the venomous attacks from some.

:eyes:

On edit: Here ... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=356898&mesg_id=357010