*** OFFICIAL FISA THREAD & Update*** Dodd up now!

[gateley]

Feingold just finished.

Please K&R

Link to cSpan 2:


http://cspan.org/watch/cs_cspan2_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS2

[maddezmom]

1. thanks for the heads up

I've got Mukasey and CSPAN3 streaming and watching Feingold now CSPAN2 on my TV. :crazy:

[redqueen]

2. Please feed the cube rats.

I wish I could watch...


KEEP CALLING!

1 (800) 828 - 0498
1 (800) 614 - 2803
1 (866) 340 - 9281
1 (866) 338 - 1015
1 (877) 851 - 6437
1 (800) 459 - 1887

[Breeze54]

13. Feingold said; "the Dems WILL regret voting for this bill!" "This tragic retreat from the laws

that have governed us for 30 years." :(

Leahy up now!

[redqueen]

17. He's right. It's the new IWR.

But how many don't care, and will vote the wrong way anyway... knowing they can just say "oops sorry I was wrong" later and they'll get to keep their cushy jobs?

[lonestarnot]

3. Damn! Have to go.

Will be back though.}(

[Nite Owl]

4. Thanks for the cspan link

For some reason cspan2 is coming in totally pixilated on cable, both the lower and upper reception. All other channels are fine, it's the only one having this problem.
Not being:tinfoilhat: but .....

[gateley]

6. I'm having trouble with it all of a sudden, too. Anybody know of another site that's streaming? nt

[Breeze54]

10. Did you refresh and close Real Player and try Windows Media Player or

just try listening with out video?

I don't know about any alternate site. Sorry.

[gateley]

14. I finally got it up and running again.

My main browser is Safari, and I tried Camino and Firefox, now Camino is coming through fine.

Thanks for the suggestion of listening to the audio only - hadn't thought of that! :hi:

[Breeze54]

16. Yeah!!! I'm glad you're back!

:D

[Muttocracy]

34. I had to open RealPlayer standalone to get a steady feed

Hope it's many people tuning in and not :tinfoilhat:

Of course, they could be tracking all of us tuning in... :tinfoilhat:

[pinto]

5. Feingold's making a good constitutional argument on limiting Exec's power.

Cites numerous SCOTUS decisions to that effect.

[madokie]

7. Tuned in now, thanks

[Breeze54]

8. I was looking for the ***Official FISA*** thread... you need asteriks! LOL!

:P

Thanks for starting this! There's one going in GD-P too! :D

Senate Debate on FISA Today....


C-Span has it titled as 'Response to Terrorism' :eyes:

It's Domestic Terrorism!! :grr:

[gateley]

15. I'll do that now - and update the subj line!

[Breeze54]

22. Looks 'purdy' now!

;)

[gateley]

26. And hope it looks 'official'.

:7

[slipslidingaway]

9. Thank you :) n/t

[Breeze54]

11. I'm glad he keeps using terms like, 'broke the LAW, lawlessness, unfounded, discouraging, stonewall

Feingold is sooo good! ;)

[redqueen]

21. He is.

If he'd have thrown his hat in, he'd have had so much support.

[slipslidingaway]

12. Feingold - if members knew more about this program, as they will

in the future, I am sure they will regret passing this bill.

"History will not judge this Senate kindly"

[gateley]

18. He did a wonderful job! nt

[Horse with no Name]

20. "History will not judge this Senate kindly"

The backwash has already started...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3585880

[slipslidingaway]

25. Good :)) n/t

[Breeze54]

19. "So what if they violated the law? So what?" - Sen. Leahy (being sarcastic)

[redqueen]

24. Nice.

[pinto]

23. Leahy - "This bill (Title II) makes the court the handmaiden of a coverup."

[Breeze54]

27. "No one is above the law, Senators, the president. No one. and then they got caught!"

"but with this law, will not be held accountable. and that's wrong!" - Sen. Leahy

Sen. Specter up now....

[gateley]

29. Both Feingold and Leahy had some KILLER lines!

Each one on itself should provoke reflection and further investigation.

[Breeze54]

33. The Senators should all be sitting straight up in their seats from those words!

I am and I'm not a Rep! (I guess you figured that out!) :P

[gateley]

28. Specter!

Said what Feingold did - most Senate members don't understand what they're voting for!

[helderheid]

35. he sure isn't looking well

:(

[Breeze54]

30. Specter: "Most Congressional Reps have not been briefed on this program."

"There's an old saying about a pig in a poke and you don't know what you're buying..."

[Muttocracy]

31. hi gateley, thanks for the thread, just tuned in. nt

[gateley]

36. Apparently there's one in GD-P, too, so hopefully

everyone who is interested has found those of like mind!

Missed Feingold -- AMAZING! and Leahy kicked some serious butt, too.

Nice to have a Republican voice (Specter) - join the chorus.

[Muttocracy]

45. I saw video of Feingold on DU last night - imagine he made similar arguments

but will try to find archive later

[slipslidingaway]

32. Specter, we are being called to vote when most members do

not even know the full program.

"buying a pig in a poke"

[gateley]

37. Feingold kept driving that point home, too - they haven't been given

the info they need to make an informed decision.

[slipslidingaway]

40. And Bush has 6 months left - party at the WH tonight :( n/t

[Muttocracy]

39. anyone know Specter's history on this

I missed much of the recent FISA stuff on DU when I was out of town. Yeah, I'm being lazy, but I figure someone on DU can give me the summary much faster and more accurately than I can find on my own.

Specter has always struck me as an interesting legislator - not as toe-the-line as many GOP - more of a maverick than a certain someone.

[gateley]

46. I don't know specifically regarding FISA,

but I've gotten the impression that he often speaks against his Party line, but doesn't follow through with his votes. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one, and hope he walks the talk. He DID author an amendment, that indicates he feels particularly strongly about this.

[slipslidingaway]

52. My recollection as well, just cannot point to details

"that he often speaks against his Party line, but doesn't follow through with his votes."

[slipslidingaway]

47. Without knowing the details I would say he has been better than

some Democrats

:shrug:

[Breeze54]

38. Specter: "This is a matter of historical importance. Unchecked Presidential Authority."

:woohoo:

[Breeze54]

41. Specter: "I'll stomach this bill if I must, but I'm not ready to concede the debate is over."

[pleah]

42. Is anyone planning on filibustering this bill?

[Breeze54]

50. Feingold and Dodd were and 13 others but

not sure they'll do that today... Obama said he'd filibuster but reneged. :(

[gateley]

58. I thought that when the vote for cloture passed (only 15 Dems voted no!)

that essentially put an end to the filibuster.

I think we've "moved on" and now can only vote on the amendments and the bill itself.

I hope someone who knows more will come along and confirm or set me straight.

[Breeze54]

71. That's what I meant.... you've got it. But Specter said it needs more debate!

[pleah]

88. Thank you.

:) I certainly hope they do!



A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
- Edward R. Murrow



To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.
- Abraham Lincoln
_________________________________

[Efilroft Sul]

43. For all the opposition certain Democrats provide, they could still do more.

Saying "History will not judge the Senate kindly" is not enough. They should use whatever procedural moves they can to kill the telecoms' amnesty. The Republicans use procedural moves all the time to stymie the Democrats, and nothing ends up getting done. If Finegold, Leahy, et al provide only Cassandra-like speeches as opposition, then they're merely pandering to the left to make everyone here feel good.

"Finegold gave a speech! Yay!"

"Leahy joined in! Yay!"

"They really care about the rule of law! They love America, too! Yay!"

Folks, there are fighting words (posing), and then there are fighting words (procedures). Political speeches aren't courageous enough when the stakes and principals behind them are this high. And history will judge the Finegolds and Leahys accordingly, too.

[pleah]

49. Very good point.

[slipslidingaway]

65. The candidates could have taken this issue to the American

people, especially Obama and Clinton whose words were played in homes across America every night.

They did not!!!

Not sure if there were other procedural moves they could have used and did not.

[gateley]

68. A good point --

and you know if Dennis had been one of the last ones standing, he'd have made sure we heard about it a LOT.

[slipslidingaway]

They did not silence Dennis, they silenced issues that our party

did not want to address, accountability being one of them.

[Breeze54]

44. Is that Bingingham? Was that the I-VT Senator before him?

:shrug:

[Muttocracy]

48. Bingaman, D-NM up now; didn't see Sanders' name but looks like his photo

http://sanders.senate.gov/about/

[Breeze54]

54. Yeah, that's the name... Bernie Sanders I-VT and Bingaman! Thanks!

[gateley]

51. Yes (I squinted to read his name) and I missed the guy before him.

It's interesting that there are three (i think) amendments kicking around regarding this bill.

[Breeze54]

60. They're trying to fix that Article II Retroactive Immunity part, I think

:grr:

[pleah]

53. Bernie Sanders only spoke for about 30 seconds.

[Breeze54]

56. But he spoke volumes!

;)

[KharmaTrain]

55. A Sad Day...

Thank you Senator Feingold for putting things straight...as he always has. History will look back on this day and bill as one of the worst capitulations and the gutting of what remaining privacy we have left. My only hopes are that there's some sharp lawyers out there who will find other loopholes that will enable them to go after both the telcoms and this regime.

OT...the other day I heard Senator Obama discuss how he wanted to repeal the Bankruptcy "bill" (sell-out) of '05 that opened the door to the housing mess and credit crisis. I haven't seen any coverage on this. Maybe if that bill is not sacred, neither will this one...especially if the netroots and allies keep up this issue.

[Breeze54]

61. Don't forget Dodd! They wrote the the Amendment together.

;)

[KharmaTrain]

86. I'm Listening To Him Right Now

I definitely appreciate his dilligence on this issue and how he single-handedly kept this thing from being passed months ago. I hope he never gives up on this and leads the fight to revisit this in a better day.

Senator Feingold was the lone wolf in our darkest days and I just needed to express my admiration and gratitude.

Cheers...

[pleah]

57. Mr. Dodd up now!

[Muttocracy]

59. Dodd!! :) let him be our next majority leader, please! nt

[gateley]

62. Agree! nt

[Muttocracy]

63. when we have abandoned rights for security, we have always come to regret it

[Muttocracy]

67. quoting Madison on gradual erosion of people's powers > those lost in sudden violence. nt

[gateley]

64. Dodd is making such POWERFUL statements

(as have other who have spoken before him.)

[Breeze54]

66. "Giving up liberty to gain security is flawed and has been argued for years!" - Sen. Dodd

[Lucky 13]

69. I am so proud to be represented by one of the few Patriots remaining in the Senate

Thank you Senator Leahy!

[Muttocracy]

70. learned from this admin, can do lasting damage even with good intentions if impulsive or fearful

[Muttocracy]

72. Dodd - so-called compromise without balance. nt

[gateley]

"Now is not the time to close the courthouse doors on this decision." nt

[Sydnie]

73. Dodd is doing a great job!

"now is not the time to close the courthouse door"

Thanks Chris!

[gateley]

75. I remain full of hope and faith that we can unite security and justice - Dodd. nt

[Muttocracy]

76. and recognizing his allies - Feingold, Leahy, thanking Reid too

Dodd is classy.

[Muttocracy]

74. Dodd - my trust is in the courts including juries, to do the job as the framers intended

[gateley]

77. Dodd naming names and giving kudos to those who have fought for this --

Feingold, Leahy.

I'd add Boxer, Kennedy, Kerry, and the fifteen who voted against cloture.

[Muttocracy]

78. history will not judge kindly Bush or the current Congress. ouch.

[gateley]

79. It will haunt us long after this administration is gone... nt

[Muttocracy]

84. I don't tear up that easily, but I did at that. nt

[Breeze54]

80. Woot! Dodd is naming all Bush's crimes!!!!!

:woohoo: :woohoo:

"Does America stand for the rule of law or the rule of men? This will haunt us long after this generation passes on!
This is the question every generation must answer for themselves. I ask the question: Will we?"

:applause: :applause:

[slipslidingaway]

89. Too bad Dodd's words are not played on TV for Americans

to hear, that is where I blame Obama and Clinton as well.

They did not use the media to highlight this important issue.

[Muttocracy]

92. I have to wonder if the Dem race had started later, after Dodd did more on FISA

if he would have been paid more attention, which he deserved.

[slipslidingaway]

100. Dodd deserved more attention IMO, but we know the corporate

media pushes those who are acceptable to them.

:(

[Muttocracy]

81. Rockefeller asking about time set for start - answer - 30 minutes debate remaining! nt

[Sydnie]

82. thank you Senator Dodd!

Powerful speech he just gave.

[gateley]

83. Bravo Dodd! nt

[gateley]

85. Rockefeller -- yesterday he urged others to vote against the amendments! nt

[Muttocracy]

87. my impression a few go-rounds on this was that Rockefeller was key behind the compromising? nt

[kentuck]

90. He's part of the criminal conspiracy...

unfortunately. He knew about all the laws being broken and he did nothing...except to lock a note in a safe saying how bad it was. :mad:

[Sydnie]

94. Didn't he send a letter to Cheney questioning this program?

A letter that he had to file away and choke down while he couldn't discuss it out loud? A letter where he thought what they were doing was illegal when they were doing it?

Why back peddle now?

[Muttocracy]

101. do they have $$ or intelligence on him or something? general intimidation? nt

[Sydnie]

106. He's got plenty of money of his own

Always has had. What could they have on him? He's as white bread as they come.

[Muttocracy]

109. No idea. nt

[slipslidingaway]

95. FISA, Telecom Immunity, Senator Rockefeller, Third Way

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2848967&mesg_id=2849280

"...Third Way, a non-profit "progressive" think tank that is funded and controlled by hedge fund managers, corporate lawyers and business executives has advised Sen. Jay Rockefeller on a domestic surveillance bill that includes immunity for telecommunications companies with which Third Way board members have close ties.

Rockefeller is the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee and has been the leading Democratic proponent of granting immunity to telecommunication companies that allegedly gave spy agencies access to their communication networks and databases without a warrant.

"We have advised Senator Rockefeller on messaging and have talked to his staff regarding FISA," Matt Bennett, vice president of Third Way said. "We believe there should be immunity and have been cooperating with ..."

[Muttocracy]

97. so clearly anyone can label themselve a "progressive". sigh.

[Breeze54]

99. How much $$ has Rockefeller received from the Telecons?

[slipslidingaway]

102. Not sure n/t

[mikelgb]

91. is this the wake for the 4th amendment?

[gateley]

93. I fear it may be. nt

[Muttocracy]

96. short, sweet, and oh-so important

Amendment IV (1791)

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

http://www.senate.gov/civics/constitution_item/constitution.htm#amdt_4_1791

[Breeze54]

98. The last battle cries to save the Constitution....

:(

[pleah]

103. Indeed it is!

[Breeze54]

104. Rockefellah sure likes the words, "We compromised."

:eyes:

Not all of us, 'fellah! :grr:

[Muttocracy]

105. Rockefeller now talking about how president must go through FISA. Funny he still supports immunity.

[Muttocracy]

108. Am I nuts or is this BS - the president ALWAYS had to work through FISA. :-(

[Breeze54]

112. It's BS!!! -- not you!

:grr:

[slipslidingaway]

114. You're not nuts, those who buy these excuses might be :) n/t

[VP505]

111. He is just blathering on and on

not really saying anything, just wasting time.

[Muttocracy]

115. yeah, must he *filibuster* the remaining time - just get it over with. nt

[gateley]

107. You know, the fact that ANY members of the Senate and Congress,

the ACLU, constitutional law experts like Jonathan Turley -- the fact that ANY of these qualified people have grave concerns about this, should be enough to make everybody take pause.

[Muttocracy]

113. is this proof that committee chairmanships matter? imagine another in Rockefeller's place.. nt

[slipslidingaway]

110. Rockefeller talking about the exclusivity provision that was

already there 30 years ago!

It was a felony under the 1978 FISA law.

[Sydnie]

116. Could we get a new thread please?

This one is getting a little long. :hi:

[Muttocracy]

117. nevermind - she's on it! new thread up.

[gateley]

122. Great idea about the final/vote thread. Deserves a thread of its own.

We can cut #2 short.

[gateley]

120. Great minds.... :-)

[Breeze54]

118. He's sooo full of shiite!!!

:argh:

Just STFU!! :crazy:

[gateley]

119. ****THREAD 2 is UP***** come on over!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3586883

[Breeze54]

121. FU, Rockerfeller!!

:grr:

[gateley]

123. Thread 2 is up --

and yes, FU Rockefeller!! :grr:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3586883