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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 04:42 PM Original message |
Question: Where does profit come from? |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 04:47 PM Response to Original message |
1. When I had a business, that isn't the way I did it. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 04:50 PM Response to Reply #1 |
4. But here's my question: if you look at the bigger picture, the workforce |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 05:07 PM Response to Reply #4 |
9. People who can afford to purchase the product. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 09:21 PM Response to Reply #9 |
25. You're missing my point. I'm asking about the whole system, you're looking at your |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 09:47 PM Response to Reply #25 |
29. My business in isolation works the way most businesses do. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 10:53 PM Response to Reply #29 |
36. I don't see why the premise is hard to understand. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:08 PM Response to Reply #36 |
43. your closed system with arbitrary numbers is not representative of the real world. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:18 PM Response to Reply #43 |
47. It doesn't matter what numbers you plug in. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:21 PM Response to Reply #47 |
48. you really need to take a class in finance... |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:41 PM Response to Reply #48 |
53. Now, I've always had a suspicion that when someone tells you to |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 06:39 AM Response to Reply #53 |
74. it's a little more involved than i care to go into on a sunday morning, typing on a message board... |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 02:11 PM Response to Reply #74 |
95. yeah, cars are complicated too, with lots of parts. but i can explain |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 02:17 PM Response to Reply #95 |
96. it matters quite a bit how many players you use, what numbers and the time frame... |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 02:49 PM Response to Reply #96 |
102. i take it for granted that owners DO make profit. I'm looking to understand |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 08:56 PM Response to Reply #102 |
135. it is extremely simple where profit comes from in the real world- |
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B.S. Lewis (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 12:01 PM Response to Reply #74 |
184. Your dismissiveness is pretty dumb. |
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Dorian Gray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 10:49 PM Response to Reply #48 |
233. And credit card debt.... |
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lonestarnot (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 10:39 PM Response to Reply #25 |
34. The workers look pretty squeezed don't they? |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 10:50 PM Response to Reply #25 |
35. there are other people besides the owners and the workers who make a specific product. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 10:55 PM Response to Reply #35 |
38. ? |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:02 PM Response to Reply #38 |
41. you're the one who said that you want to talk about the 'whole system'. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:26 PM Response to Reply #41 |
49. It doesn't matter. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:29 PM Response to Reply #49 |
50. what about banks, interest on loans, and a government that issues the currency...? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:43 PM Response to Reply #50 |
54. explain how. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 06:35 AM Response to Reply #54 |
73. you want someone to explain a semester of finance in one post...? |
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MonkeyFunk (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 01:04 PM Response to Reply #49 |
92. salaries are not the only source of money in the real world |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 02:54 PM Response to Reply #92 |
103. I understand that. You get money by producing something & having |
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Dorian Gray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 10:51 PM Response to Reply #49 |
234. But there is also |
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Yupster (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 12:27 AM Response to Reply #38 |
59. Okay I'll bite |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 01:07 AM Response to Reply #59 |
63. But Social Security $ come from taxes taken from current workers' |
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Yupster (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 05:06 PM Response to Reply #63 |
119. I think you're thinking that money is finite |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 06:23 PM Response to Reply #119 |
123. "I think you're thinking that money is finite" |
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SoCalDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 09:49 PM Response to Reply #4 |
30. Producers hire people for as little as possible.. |
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arcadian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 04:47 PM Response to Original message |
2. profit = exploitation of labor |
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Lorien (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 02:22 PM Response to Reply #2 |
99. I'm self employed. Am I exploiting myself? |
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arcadian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 03:13 PM Response to Reply #99 |
106. This quote sums it up. |
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ColbertWatcher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 04:34 PM Response to Reply #99 |
116. Pics or it didn't happen. n/t |
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noamnety (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 06:45 PM Response to Reply #99 |
126. Exploiting others, not yourself, assuming you're getting ahead. |
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Kutjara (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 04:49 PM Response to Original message |
3. Profit results from "noise" in the economic system. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 04:54 PM Response to Reply #3 |
5. I can see that, partly. |
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Kutjara (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 05:07 PM Response to Reply #5 |
10. If I understand your argument correctly... |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 09:24 PM Response to Reply #10 |
26. No, I'm not saying all that, I'm just asking, since workers in aggregate |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:12 PM Response to Reply #26 |
45. what happened to the world with 2 owners and 20 workers? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:35 PM Response to Reply #45 |
51. You seem to be missing the point. I used 20 workers for convenience. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:39 PM Response to Reply #51 |
52. post #48 should point you in the right direction... |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 12:33 AM Response to Reply #52 |
60. as i said, i figure when someone tells me to go back to school, it's because |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 06:33 AM Response to Reply #60 |
72. there's no answering your question because your pretend world isn't accurate. |
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muriel_volestrangler (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 09:22 AM Response to Reply #26 |
80. In your example, the difference is the $15 x 2 "rent" cost of raw materials |
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Muttocracy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 12:06 PM Response to Reply #80 |
86. thanks - answers my question earlier about the raw materials advantage. nt |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 02:06 PM Response to Reply #80 |
94. sure, they owned the land where the resources came from. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 02:25 PM Response to Reply #94 |
101. who is this "someone" from who they bought the land??? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 03:00 PM Response to Reply #101 |
104. ahem: it's the other owner in the example. who represents the millions |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 08:48 PM Response to Reply #104 |
134. ultimately it's EXTREMELY simple where profit comes from- |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 10:02 PM Response to Reply #134 |
140. actually, governments and private entities issue currency & credit, |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-14-08 05:18 AM Response to Reply #140 |
142. private entities might issue credit- but the currency that ultimately comes due is government issue. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-14-08 11:22 PM Response to Reply #142 |
154. The US Treasury prints money - so that's it, eh? |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 09:03 AM Response to Reply #154 |
159. it really doesn't interest me to any great extent. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 10:40 AM Response to Reply #159 |
163. that's the definition. i had to know that much to ask the question. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 10:51 AM Response to Reply #163 |
165. if you took a class, though, you'd know govs are almost never the sole money creator. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:18 AM Response to Reply #165 |
166. "money creator" and "currency issuer" are two different things completely. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:20 AM Response to Reply #166 |
168. as i said, check out the history of the us. it's not the case. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:22 AM Response to Reply #168 |
169. it's the case today. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:27 AM Response to Reply #169 |
172. well, since you know, why are you here? |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:37 AM Response to Reply #172 |
174. why are any of us here? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:06 PM Response to Reply #174 |
203. Why are you here, in this thread, insulting me, when I've not insulted you and you're confident |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:30 PM Response to Reply #203 |
211. just trying to share. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:31 PM Response to Reply #211 |
212. Great. If you'd just share your perceptions without personalizing things, |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:34 PM Response to Reply #212 |
214. i see- so you're the only one qualified to mock user names then? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:37 PM Response to Reply #214 |
217. My mocking occurred rather late in the game, after repeated requests for you to |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:41 PM Response to Reply #217 |
220. does that also mean that you're not going to lie about your conduct anymore either? |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:36 PM Response to Reply #163 |
216. yes,it pretty much does. |
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B.S. Lewis (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 12:16 PM Response to Reply #134 |
188. You just made HB's point for her |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 12:28 PM Response to Reply #188 |
191. it doesn't always take a lot of capital to initialize production... |
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B.S. Lewis (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 01:16 PM Response to Reply #191 |
196. Sure |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:00 PM Response to Reply #196 |
201. lemonade stands don't drive the economy- but small businesses do. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:35 PM Response to Reply #201 |
215. Small businesses hire more workers than large ones, but they don't |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:38 PM Response to Reply #215 |
218. you obviously have the numbers to back those assertions up, right...? |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 10:56 PM Response to Reply #215 |
235. and btw, as long as you mention it- how does a large business make it's profit...? |
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B.S. Lewis (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 08:16 PM Response to Reply #201 |
230. OK |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:13 PM Response to Reply #196 |
236. just to add- it's not always lack of capital that keeps people working for wages... |
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B.S. Lewis (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jul-16-08 02:04 AM Response to Reply #236 |
238. i'm glad you're thinking about these issues |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-14-08 10:43 AM Response to Reply #104 |
146. and if you look at the larger picture- where does the profit in the entire system come from... |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-14-08 10:31 PM Response to Reply #146 |
150. there's one of the answers: they take it from the other fellow's workers. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 08:59 AM Response to Reply #150 |
158. they don't "take" it- it's exchanged. money in exchange for goods or services. or labor. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 10:45 AM Response to Reply #158 |
164. if you say so. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:19 AM Response to Reply #164 |
167. i do. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:25 AM Response to Reply #167 |
170. "question all", eh? |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:46 AM Response to Reply #170 |
177. it's a name on a message board... |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:04 PM Response to Reply #177 |
202. I see the problem now. You're reacting to your imagined idea of who I am. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:32 PM Response to Reply #202 |
213. based entirely on how you present yourself. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:39 PM Response to Reply #213 |
219. I haven't presented anything but a problem, and that's how I choose to be perceived. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:44 PM Response to Reply #219 |
221. the avatar and your comments on communism/capitalism have nothing to do with how you're presented? |
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Spike89 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:19 PM Response to Reply #170 |
206. Secondary markets and services |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:22 PM Response to Reply #206 |
208. I don't see the possibility of bargains unless you sell below cost. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 10:46 PM Response to Reply #208 |
232. selling second-hand. |
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Rabrrrrrr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 03:56 PM Response to Reply #26 |
112. Oh, for god's sake. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 04:32 PM Response to Reply #112 |
115. "That does not necessarily mean that they can't buy them all back." |
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Rabrrrrrr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 08:20 PM Response to Reply #115 |
128. It's not really worth the effort to explain stuff to you, is it? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 08:38 PM Response to Reply #128 |
131. you didn't explain anything. you said: they save. they spend future |
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Rabrrrrrr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 08:42 PM Response to Reply #131 |
132. I, and especially many others, have explained a lot. You refuse to hear it, |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 08:56 PM Response to Reply #132 |
136. only one person has told me something i didn't already know, anything |
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Rabrrrrrr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 09:16 PM Response to Reply #136 |
138. Yeah, I figured you already knew the answer, and were just jacking people around. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 09:56 PM Response to Reply #138 |
139. i posted in hopes someone would have better answers. the ones i came up with don't explain |
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CANDO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 06:20 PM Response to Reply #26 |
122. It's called saving your money |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 06:39 PM Response to Reply #122 |
124. savings = investment. |
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CANDO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-14-08 09:34 AM Response to Reply #124 |
144. What the fuck is your problem anyway? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-14-08 10:28 PM Response to Reply #144 |
149. i opened the thread to explore the idea. no one forced anyone to participate. |
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ColbertWatcher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-14-08 10:34 PM Response to Reply #144 |
151. You can't just make an assertion on the internets, you have to show your work. |
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CANDO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:26 AM Response to Reply #151 |
171. Here you go.....I'll show my work....... |
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ColbertWatcher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 05:03 PM Response to Reply #171 |
227. This is a forum. |
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CANDO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 07:41 PM Response to Reply #227 |
229. I meant it to be exasperating and sarcastic. |
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ColbertWatcher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jul-16-08 04:12 PM Response to Reply #229 |
241. "Shoot down" And you've been around internets forums for a while? Are you sure? n/t |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jul-16-08 05:35 PM Response to Reply #241 |
243. Deleted message |
ColbertWatcher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jul-16-08 05:46 PM Response to Reply #243 |
244. ? |
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CANDO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-17-08 10:25 AM Response to Reply #244 |
247. How long you been here on DU? |
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ColbertWatcher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 05:52 PM Response to Reply #5 |
15. Let's go to the train mess from earlier. |
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Muttocracy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 05:09 PM Response to Reply #3 |
11. helpful post - thanks. nt |
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muriel_volestrangler (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 04:59 PM Response to Original message |
6. There may not be any profit |
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Captain Angry (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 04:59 PM Response to Original message |
7. Do the widgets deteriorate? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:00 PM Response to Reply #7 |
39. But the problem is, the demand is created because the workers |
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Captain Angry (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 12:54 AM Response to Reply #39 |
62. Demand doesn't fall if they need access to the widget. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 01:29 AM Response to Reply #62 |
64. If they don't have $ to buy the product, there's no cash demand. |
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Captain Angry (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 01:46 AM Response to Reply #64 |
66. They would each have $8.50 |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 04:02 AM Response to Reply #66 |
69. Sure, the workers can buy 34 widgets @ cost price, for their $170. |
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Muttocracy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 05:04 PM Response to Original message |
8. How did they get the raw materials to sell at first? does that factor in? nt |
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ColbertWatcher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 06:09 PM Response to Reply #8 |
18. I think that's where the theft comes from. n/t |
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Muttocracy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 06:21 PM Response to Reply #18 |
19. or at least the unequal starting point. nt |
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ColbertWatcher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 06:27 PM Response to Reply #19 |
20. True enough. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:53 PM Response to Reply #8 |
56. In the example, both producers own some raw materials which the other |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 05:10 PM Response to Original message |
12. Theft. Proudhon explained it well enough. |
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rwenos (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 05:29 PM Response to Original message |
13. Injected Surplus Value |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 09:43 PM Response to Reply #13 |
28. No, I understand the general principle, but what I'm looking for is something |
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napi21 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 10:01 PM Response to Reply #28 |
32. Not all those workers want YOUR widget! Some want a different one. |
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Lyric (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 05:35 PM Response to Original message |
14. Profit is not possible without exploitation, |
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rwenos (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 05:52 PM Response to Reply #14 |
16. Only Creative Artists and Certain Professionals |
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malaise (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 05:55 PM Response to Original message |
17. Read Marx n/t |
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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 07:04 PM Response to Original message |
21. Marx: profit is the difference between what workers earn and the value of what they produce |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 04:32 AM Response to Reply #21 |
70. Thanks, I get it. But what I'm trying to figure out is how the systemic surplus production |
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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 12:45 PM Response to Reply #70 |
87. When the workers don't have enough money? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 03:27 PM Response to Reply #87 |
107. that was one of the solutions i came up with, e.g.: |
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mudesi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 07:16 PM Response to Original message |
22. Your numbers are all over the place - But here is your answer |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 09:14 PM Response to Reply #22 |
24. Well, it doesn't, really, if I understand you right. |
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muriel_volestrangler (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 10:30 AM Response to Reply #24 |
81. No, not really |
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mudesi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 05:26 PM Response to Reply #81 |
121. I should've thought of that |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 06:43 PM Response to Reply #121 |
125. put in any numbers you like. there's no profit in the system, & no |
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mudesi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 08:07 PM Response to Reply #125 |
127. You might want to take an economics class |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 08:23 PM Response to Reply #127 |
130. i'm really getting tired of folks telling me to take a class. the banapple |
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muriel_volestrangler (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 08:20 PM Response to Reply #125 |
129. That's because that's a system with daily production and consumption, and nothing permanent |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 08:46 PM Response to Reply #129 |
133. i take your point about the difference in owning the resource & selling |
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muriel_volestrangler (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-14-08 03:51 AM Response to Reply #133 |
141. So can we say that your question has been answered? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 12:33 AM Response to Reply #141 |
156. Seems some folks don't like "argument," & if you're one of them, read no further. |
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ColbertWatcher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 09:33 PM Response to Reply #22 |
27. The only disagreement I would have with your example is... |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 10:54 PM Response to Reply #22 |
37. mr. apple doesn't have very good business sense, does he..? |
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ColbertWatcher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:02 PM Response to Reply #37 |
40. LOL! Mr. Apple is an ass. |
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ColbertWatcher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:56 PM Response to Reply #22 |
57. Here is another fruit-based example... |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 01:42 AM Response to Reply #57 |
65. Except you don't say anything about who's buying the stuff, & |
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ColbertWatcher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 02:02 AM Response to Reply #65 |
67. Well, there are the people who sell the seeds... |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 06:52 AM Response to Reply #65 |
78. there is no "mystery" to profit- you sell something for more than it costs you to produce it... |
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frylock (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 07:53 PM Response to Original message |
23. according to the underpants gnomes.. |
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Fire Walk With Me (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 03:35 PM Response to Reply #23 |
109. Beat me to it |
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baby_mouse (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 09:52 PM Response to Original message |
31. The same place socks go when they disappear. |
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mitchum (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 10:29 PM Response to Original message |
33. When one sells the product of the labor and the materials for more... |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:08 PM Response to Reply #33 |
44. which is my question, how is this possible? |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:14 PM Response to Reply #44 |
46. a $100 investment is going to have to produce more than $100 worth of goods, for one thing. |
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JANdad (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 11:46 AM Response to Reply #44 |
85. Your basic flaw in your thinking is this: |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 03:05 PM Response to Reply #85 |
105. OK, that's one of the answers I came up with: consumer credit. |
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JANdad (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-14-08 06:53 PM Response to Reply #105 |
148. Bingo! |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-14-08 11:04 PM Response to Reply #148 |
153. Well, I don't see that there IS any monetized profit in the system, without |
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Boojatta (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:38 AM Response to Reply #44 |
175. "So there's $100 worth of goods & $100 worth of cash in the system." |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jul-16-08 08:38 PM Response to Reply #175 |
246. The owners paid $100 for the labor & materials. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:05 PM Response to Original message |
42. who does the "rent" money go to..? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-12-08 11:50 PM Response to Reply #42 |
55. "rent" = "economic rent", not like renting an apartment. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 06:48 AM Response to Reply #55 |
76. huh? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 12:48 PM Response to Reply #76 |
88. "economic rent" is a classical economics term. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 01:04 PM Response to Reply #88 |
91. where does the money in your little closed society come from...? |
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AdHocSolver (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 12:24 AM Response to Original message |
58. Your example and all the responses left out the most important element - TIME. |
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ColbertWatcher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 12:34 AM Response to Reply #58 |
61. It makes perfect sense. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 02:40 AM Response to Reply #58 |
68. He borrows $12,000 & pays back 13,440 over 12 months. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 06:40 AM Response to Reply #58 |
75. she don't. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 12:50 PM Response to Reply #75 |
89. i understand it just fine, & did before i asked my question. |
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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:49 AM Response to Reply #58 |
178. Profit is never pure idea. The circulation of profit merely marks the distribution, not its origin. |
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Princess Turandot (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 05:41 AM Response to Original message |
71. I think the 'manufacturing' example is what is confusing you.. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 06:50 AM Response to Original message |
77. where does the money in your world come from...? |
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Cronus Protagonist (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 01:18 PM Response to Reply #77 |
197. Ding Ding Ding |
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cayuga (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 08:03 AM Response to Original message |
79. Sell the widgets for $1000 to the military n/t |
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ColbertWatcher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 01:33 PM Response to Reply #79 |
93. LOL! Winner! Thread over! n/t |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 03:47 PM Response to Reply #79 |
111. sure, but where does the gov get its $? either they tax the owners |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 09:21 AM Response to Reply #111 |
161. "the weapons makers profit comes by making the rest of society poorer" |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:13 PM Response to Reply #161 |
205. doesn't matter what they do with it. the profit came by making other folks poorer. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:48 PM Response to Reply #205 |
222. the workers who were paid for their labor aren't any poorer... |
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Trillo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 10:36 AM Response to Original message |
82. I guess this is why they call it The Dismal Science. |
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Pavulon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 10:41 AM Response to Original message |
83. Dated Model..Here is a simple example |
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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:53 AM Response to Reply #83 |
180. That's no more the creation of profit than gambling is. |
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Trillo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 11:45 AM Response to Original message |
84. I would guess the PROFIT comes from one of two places, |
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Greyhound (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 12:52 PM Response to Original message |
90. Your scenario is too simple and makes no provision for the extraction of profit with |
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Th1onein (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 02:18 PM Response to Original message |
97. Profit comes from unpaid labor. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 02:20 PM Response to Reply #97 |
98. r-i-i-i-i-ght... |
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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:54 AM Response to Reply #98 |
181. Brilliant answer. You post more eyerolls than actual language. |
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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:55 AM Response to Reply #97 |
182. Exactly. |
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hfojvt (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 02:25 PM Response to Original message |
100. all of the real wealth probably comes from agriculture |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 04:01 PM Response to Reply #100 |
113. yep. |
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Boojatta (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 04:10 PM Response to Reply #100 |
225. "agriculture which is the only thing we really need to survive" |
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Vinca (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 03:32 PM Response to Original message |
108. Did I miss the price of the widgets? |
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Hippo_Tron (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 03:37 PM Response to Original message |
110. Some of the workers take out loans to buy more widgets |
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Trillo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 04:10 PM Response to Original message |
114. At least one thing seems very inefficient in your example. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 04:36 PM Response to Reply #114 |
117. "Who benefits from such inefficiency?" |
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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 04:39 PM Response to Original message |
118. Yes. It is indeed a zero sum game, and profit is the result of exploitation |
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kentuck (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 05:14 PM Response to Original message |
120. labor creates all wealth. |
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BlooInBloo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-13-08 08:59 PM Response to Original message |
137. If this isn't simply an I-hate-profit- because-profit-is-evil screed.... |
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Wizard777 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-14-08 08:17 AM Response to Original message |
143. The Stork brings it. |
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OxQQme (694 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-14-08 10:25 AM Response to Reply #143 |
145. Pyramid scheme |
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guardian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-14-08 11:40 AM Response to Original message |
147. I think the answer to your question |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-14-08 10:43 PM Response to Reply #147 |
152. Yes, & when the music stops - someone is holding $0. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 09:15 AM Response to Reply #152 |
160. they don't realize the profit until they sell the widgets. msrp- $10. |
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Trillo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:45 AM Response to Reply #160 |
176. The owners won't "die of starvation" under this type of government. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:51 AM Response to Reply #176 |
179. hannah's not concerned with real world money supplies. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:21 PM Response to Reply #176 |
207. The basic flow of money in this system is unsustainable. |
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Trillo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jul-16-08 01:23 PM Response to Reply #207 |
239. It seems to be set up to maintain "control". |
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OmahaBlueDog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-14-08 11:41 PM Response to Original message |
155. Profit comes from the addition of value over and above the cost of production & sale |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 12:47 AM Response to Reply #155 |
157. That's a post-hoc definition, & assumes the existence of $ to pay for the profit. |
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Rabrrrrrr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:29 AM Response to Reply #157 |
173. I think what you need is not so much an economics class as a math class. |
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OmahaBlueDog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 12:35 PM Response to Reply #157 |
194. Hannah, next time tell everyone you don't want post-hoc definitions |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:09 PM Response to Reply #194 |
204. I have no problem admitting when I make a calculation error. |
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OmahaBlueDog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:19 PM Response to Reply #204 |
237. Incorrect: profit is not hetting more money than you paid |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jul-16-08 08:35 PM Response to Reply #237 |
245. sure there's a "profit" in the goods - & the owners own the goods. |
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jakefrep (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 10:15 AM Response to Original message |
162. Profit comes from the Seventh Circle of Hell.... |
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kentuck (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 11:55 AM Response to Original message |
183. If you have a barrel full of brand new $100 dollar bills... |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 12:14 PM Response to Reply #183 |
187. why can't i profit from my own labor? |
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kentuck (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 12:17 PM Response to Reply #187 |
189. You can. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 12:31 PM Response to Reply #189 |
193. exactly. |
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mainegreen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 12:03 PM Response to Original message |
185. In the end? The sun. Seriously. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 12:09 PM Response to Reply #185 |
186. it's even more dire than that... |
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mainegreen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 12:18 PM Response to Reply #186 |
190. One big initial investment. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:29 PM Response to Reply #185 |
210. You can use/transfer energy, but not create it. Ergo, no profit in the system as a whole. |
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mainegreen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 07:35 PM Response to Reply #210 |
228. Of course. |
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Heddi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 12:29 PM Response to Original message |
192. What about workers who are paid more than the ones in your scenario? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-17-08 12:33 PM Response to Reply #192 |
248. "I am a nurse, so I don't produce anything. I get paid for working a set amount of hours" |
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mia (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 01:13 PM Response to Original message |
195. Ask "the man behind the iron curtain". |
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Cynical1999 (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 01:43 PM Response to Original message |
198. This is easier to explain that some think... |
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Yavin4 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 01:52 PM Response to Original message |
199. The Answer Is.... |
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Trillo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 02:39 PM Response to Reply #199 |
200. Undoubtedly one of the reasons the Federal Reserve moves fast |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:27 PM Response to Reply #199 |
209. Yep. & in our world, it inflates. For obvious reasons, I think. |
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mia (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:56 PM Response to Original message |
223. In the beginning profit comes from risk, sacrifice, and hard work. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 03:59 PM Response to Reply #223 |
224. no one's negated anything, or insulted small business owners, |
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mia (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 04:11 PM Response to Reply #224 |
226. Profit comes from sweat equity in my experience. |
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Boojatta (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-15-08 08:34 PM Response to Original message |
231. Profit comes from widgets. Profit can take the form of having a servant. |
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slutticus (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jul-16-08 01:37 PM Response to Original message |
240. It's simple really. |
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Leopolds Ghost (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jul-16-08 05:33 PM Response to Original message |
242. The answer is a LOT easier than most people think... |
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DU AdBot (1000+ posts) | Tue Jun 25th 2024, 09:38 AM Response to Original message |
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