So, this crazy murder in Canada is really showcasing ignorance toward the mentally ill

[HEyHEY]

The guy that did it is likely mentally ill. I'm not sure, but I'm assuming schizophrenia (Though they are rarely violent). And all I hear is people saying, "They should de-decapitated HIM" and "We need the death penalty back" (Yeah, cause there's been a rash of random decapitations and we need a deterrence!)
But, even if you try to bring up this guy is mentally ill, people actually have the fucking sand to say, "That's no excuse." It's like, "Uh, no fuckface, that's probably the ONLY excuse in the world that is acceptable." I'm mentally ill myself, (OCD) and though I'm very well these days, I do know what it's like to not be in control of your brain. You literally AREN'T in control. Not that I am comparable to schizophrenics.... but I'm sure it's miles past the bizarre and painful experience of a full out OCD fit
Now, I feel genuinely terrible for the completely Innocent, and I'm told exceptional, young man this happened to. However, I also felt very bad watching the footage of the guy who did it being taken into court. He looked afraid, confused and alone. He may be in some kind of extended psychotic episode and not even know what's going on. And when he comes around and realizes what he's done it will destroy him.
And to hear people talk about killing him and not even trying to understand that he may have literally not even had control of his body is sickening and hateful. In fact, I consider it hate speech.

[yardwork]

1. Meanwhile, the various crazed racist killers down here get little attention.

[EFerrari]

3. Those crimes often get disappeared, don't they?

I was reading The Race Beat last night, and read about the murders of three black leaders that got reported as car accidents or worse, the reporting was about whether one voting rights activist had registered people fraudulently and not about his murder.

[HEyHEY]

13. Wow, I feel much better about my country now

Any race-based killing up here is a MAJOR issue and news story that sparks debate about new legislation and such. But Canada has some serious hate laws.

[yardwork]

18. Happy to be of service!

[TheDebbieDee]

254. Apparently, you also still have a free press there, too. Eh?

[Truth4Justice]

149. You mean racist killers like the Carr Brothers? You are correct; it wasn't covered very well.

I wonder why?

[hedgehog]

2. I'm reminded of the Texas woman who drowned her children a few years back.

I think her attorney said he hated it when she was sane enough to realize what she had done because she was so devastated!

[EFerrari]

6. Yes. And if you bring up her name, it's an invitation for hateful posts. n/t

[defendandprotect]

54. And, America has largely and purposefully ignored POSTPARTUM illness ....

so many people don't even understand it still ---

[EFerrari]

137. I know.

:(

[tblue37]

40. Andrea Yates. She is a very sad case. n/t

[lynnertic]

179. Ah, I guessed Susan Smith. n/t

[LisaL]

196. Smith was convicted, and she was never deemed to be insane.

[tblue37]

207. No, her kids were lder. She strapped them into their

carseats and pushed the car into the lake to drown them, so she could be with her boyfriend who didn't want kids. Yates' had 5 kids, one just 6 months old. She homeschooled allbut the baby. (Her husband--I think his name is Rusty--had come under the influence of a wacko fundie preacher.) Yates drowned all five kids in the bathtub. At least one of them (the oldest) knew what was going on, tried to get away from her, and struggled to prevent her from drowning him.

She had been suffering from mental illness and delusions for a long time, but if I remember correctly, she was discharged from the mental instituion where she was being treated because her insurance ran out. She used to see and hear the characters in her kids' cartoon shows talking to her and telling her what a bad mother she was and how all her kids would suffer eternally in hell because she ahd screwed up so badly in raising them. She killed them to save them from eternal damnation.

It isn't just society at large that ignores the needs of the mentally ill. Often those closest to them also ignore their needs, as in the case of Yates' husband and other family members.

[marshall]

217. It's so hard these days to get somebody locked up for their own good

Much less trying to take their paental rights away from them--it is a supremely uphill battle.
Meanwhile little children aren't safe in their own homes and we are afraid to ride buses.

[ejpoeta]

250. there's a slight difference between the two

susan smith sent her boys, strapped in their car seats, to die in a lake. the thought of those boys trapped in their car seats!! and then she lied about a carjacking, pleading for the kids return when she knew damn well where they were! andrea yates.... that's tough, because I get the feeling she didn't have the help she needed. she was released from the hospital when she shouldn't have been. these are cases that scare me, because as a woman who has been hospitalized in my past for depression and who suffers with it to this day, i fear repercussions on people like me because of cases like that of andrea yates. I could never imagine hurting my kids, but I remember when my oldest was a baby how tough it was for me. I would have to put her in her crib and walk away at times. Sometimes i wasn't sure if i would make it. I like to think that if I became a danger to my kids I would tell my family and do what I had to do to protect them. Would I hurt my kids? No. But I can understand the darkness. And if this woman wasn't taking meds. sheesh!

[LisaL]

85. And why shouldn't she be devastated? Hello?

She offed all five of her kids.

[robinlynne]

4. I love your polar bear!!!!!!!

[HEyHEY]

11. thanks!

[Cleita]

5. He certainly wasn't operating from a rational place.

Our court system takes into consideration the mental health of the defendant. Remember Ronald Reagan's would be assassin John Hinckley, Jr., was never put in prison because he was judged to be mentally ill. I don't know if your system in Canada does the same.

[HEyHEY]

8. Here it's legally "Guilty but not criminally responsible"

[Warpy]

7. Right, no way was this a premeditated action by a sane man

The perpetrator needs to be off the streets, but that's a public health and safety issue, not a punitive one. An institution for the criminally insane should be his destination, not being warehoused in a prison.

[HEyHEY]

9. YEah, I can't see him being put in to a regular prison

[EFerrari]

14. Our prisons ARE where we put the mentally ill.

It's much, much easier to get into a jail than to get into a hospital.

[DebJ]

110. Also much more expensive for taxpayers.

[EFerrari]

139. It's stupid all around, isn't it? The other day, I had to call

the cops to come and secure one of my neighbors. I'd all but given up and accepted that they would take her to jail but my choices were that or let her or someone get hurt. My local cops blew my away and took her to the hospital. It shouldn't be so impossibly difficult to get treatment for people.

[demobabe]

170. In California, it's a 5150

They can put someone in a hospital for observation and to keep them from hurting anybody (including their own self) for something like 48 hours I think it is...

[EFerrari]

176. And actually getting that to happen is next to impossible.

It's a good thing to protect people's civil rights. But that's not the reason people don't get to hospitals. Instead, they get criminalized. If you dial 911 here and report that a family member is out of their own control, they will go to jail.

[TrogL]

101. Unless he's enacting some ritual or religious thing

In other words, by our standards] an incomprehensible act that is still logical.

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. I have someone in my family who refuses to believe that I am biplor. He's a "bootstrapper" and

just doesn't get that my brain has chemical issues and therefore not all of my behavior is based on flaws in my character.

[HEyHEY]

12. I fucking hate people like that

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. I just mentioned in another thread that it would be so cool if we were telepathic/empathic and could

let people go for a ride with us when we go through a major episode or breakdown. It would be a real eye-opener.

[PatSeg]

28. Like a mind meld

from Star Trek! The ultimate "walk a mile in my shoes" experience.

[GreenPartyVoter]

29. Yeah, like that!

[PatSeg]

30. What a better world it would be

if people learned empathy and compassion from an early age.

[BB1]

182. That might be the only solution.

See it as "affinity", a kind of mental melting of minds. Great for democracy too.
Affinity is a term by Peter F Hamilton used in his books 'The Neutronium Alchemist'. It's science fiction, but the 'good' kind.

[baby_mouse]

31. Narrow-channeled intellect syndrome.

Should be a diagnosis in itself.

[TheDebbieDee]

255. Rusty Yates believed the same thing about Andrea Yates!

[redqueen]

16. ...

:loveya:

[HEyHEY]

19. back atcha!

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_uOcvnKAiyAw/SCCZ5MqWSFI/AAAAAAAAAmc/M9itn9kgOxY/Back+atcha'+babe.JPG

[tannybogus]

17. I always cringe when I hear that some was depressed,

mentally ill, etc when something bad happens. A lot of people always lump all mental problems together

and assume everyone who has any issues will "go off their nut." I never hid the fact I suffered from depression,

and at one job I had, the manager wouldn't talk to me unless her office door was open. An assistant manager

told me it was because she was afraid I'd do something. Yeah, like curl up in a ball and not move for days.

[HEyHEY]

20. Play that up

"Don't antagonize me! I'm depressed and likely to do anything! I'm a fucking timebomb!"

[tannybogus]

21. I did that when I taught school.

I wasn't a timebomb, but I was unpredictable. That kept the kids awake. They would ask me what page we were on,

and if I hadn't heard them I might say "Blue." I found that if I said it with enough authority, they began to

wonder what they had asked.

[LostinVA]

37. I agree -- I also don't like seeing someone sociopathic called mentally ill

Because they aren't ill -- they are sociopaths.

[HEyHEY]

45. Yeah, lots of wealthy business guys are sociopathics

They are functioning... and just have no guilt.

[LostinVA]

48. "The Sociopath Next Door"

A GREAT book about this very thing: that most sociopaths aren't Ted Bundy, they are your boss, your BIL, your husband. They get off on abusing the people they have control of. I believe the percentage of sociopaths in society was quoted as 1:20.

[Tigress DEM]

22. Still if people with mental illness could get the help they need.. this stuff wouldn't happen.

I wonder how many times this guy or people close to him have tried to get him help? When schizophrenia does not respond to medication it is hell on earth. I'm aware of 2 who've suicided and 1 who recovered, but I believe he did not have the paranoia or hallucinations, just the split.

In the US Reagan booted most of the patients out of mental institutions and put them back on the street. Then he cut funding and closed places because no one was there, so obviously they were not needed. :dunce:

The current administration have been planning for 30 years to throw the US into a tizzy. Ignoring mental health issues so they can blame people that lose it may not be "part of their plan" but if they can't get them to follow the lemming philosphy and they march off the cliff not realizing it is against their best interest to do so, they will take it. It's part of the "everyone on their own-survival of the fittest" mentality.

Some days I wonder who really is sane any more?

[HEyHEY]

23. They pulled the same shit in BC

About ten years ago. Now, the streets are filled with poor souls begging for money... it's embarrassing that my country can be so openly cruel.

[NikolaC]

235. I Find There To Be A Lot Of Coldness

and lack of empathy and compassion in Canada, especially where the mentally ill and immigrants are concerned. I lived there for three years and found many lacking in understanding about mental illness. Maybe it was just the area that I was living in, or the people that I spoke to and came into contact with, but they were very self centered and lacked compassion for those whom society deemed "disposable" and "problematic". Sorry if I am generalizing, but that is the way that it seemed to me.

The states can be every bit as narrow minded, especially with the fact that so many are uninsured and are afraid to seek help because they are ashamed, cannot afford it, or do not have insurance. It's a very sad, vicious cycle and things wind up getting a lot worse instead of better.

Edited to add that I believe that that man should be locked up in an institution for the rest of his life where he cannot harm anyone else. It is terrifying what had happened and I do feel awful for the young victim and his family.

[AZ Criminal JD]

51. It wasn't Reagan, it was the ACLU

And it wasn't the 1980s it was the 1960s. The ACLU filed suit after suit in the states saying that mentally ill could not be held in institutions against their will. The states saw a good thing because they could save money and so they didn't fight the suits and turned the mentally ill out onto the streets.

[fishwax]

63. no, it wasn't the ACLU

though the ACLU was certainly involved in fighting for the rights of the mentally ill and disabled ... The ACLU did not argue that the mentally ill couldn't be held against their will, they argued that people couldn't be held in institutions against their will and without recourse to the courts--in other words, due process applies to the mentally ill as well. Before that, those considered mentally ill (or disabled) could be institutionalized against their will (whether they were a threat to self/others or not) without due process. And while institutionalized, they were often subject (with impunity) to all sorts of abuse, forced labor, etc.

In the 1950s, congress established a commission on mental health to study the country's mental health systems. As a response to their findings, the Community Mental Health Act was passed in early 1963. In the wake of that act activists on the left focused on establishing fairer processes for institutionalization and reforming systemic abuse and neglect, while those on the right sought to undermine funding. Ronald Reagan, of course, pursued the latter path--in 1967, as governor of California, he ordered funding cuts to the state's mental health system; he would continue that work on a national scale early in his first term, reversing reforms and funding increases that were passed (but not yet implemented) near the end of Carter's term.

[AZ Criminal JD]

65. States couldn't have restricted funds if not for those suits.

"Rights" for the mentally ill has been an unqualified disaster both for them and society as a whole.

[fishwax]

67. yeah, stupid "due process" technicalities

"States couldn't have restricted funds if not for those suits."

The big victory for the ACLU in this regard didn't come until 1975, when the Supreme Court ruled (unanimously) in favor of a non-violent man who had been confined against his will (and without receiving treatment) for 15 years. Reagan was cutting funds years before that. The suggestion that states couldn't have restricted funds without ACLU lawsuits is simply absurd.

[AZ Criminal JD]

90. Bringing up Reagan is silly.

This was handled at the state level. He was in just one state. How about the other 49? Was he pulling the strings there too? Such power.

[fishwax]

138. um, he did have some control of federal funding, yes

"This was handled at the state level. He was in just one state. How about the other 49? Was he pulling the strings there too? Such power."

No, it wasn't just the state level--federal funding was involved as well. Reagan cut both state funding (as governor of California) and federal funding (as president).

Does that mean that he's single-handedly responsible for deinstitutionalization and its aftermath? Of course not--the process was underway even before he became governor of California, and to simply blame it all on Reagan is to overlook the complexities of the issue as it developed and evolved over several decades. But, as I said in an earlier post, one might broadly identify two responses to the crisis of mental health care as it emerged in the wake of the CMHA: reformers on the left sought to make the system more humane, effective, and just, while those on the right sought simply to make it less of a drain on the budget. Reagan was a champion of the latter path, which he pursued in positions of both state and federal authority, and which dovetails nicely with the other tenets of the "Reagan Revolution." Its hardly silly, then, to bring up Reagan. (Blaming the ACLU, on the other hand, is.)

[AZ Criminal JD]

204. The law of unintended consequences strikes here.

These suits gave the states the excuse and ammunition they needed to dump the mentally ill onto the streets.

[fishwax]

225. no, not really

As I've said, the states were cutting funding *before* the lawsuits. They didn't need the lawsuits as excuse or ammunition. It's absurd to blame the ACLU (which pursued lawsuits revealing real injustices in the system) for the failure of the conservative approach to the problem (gutting funding).

[LostinVA]

116. No, it was Reagan

[defendandprotect]

56. Wait . . . some are confusing two issues . . .

Yes . . . when these chemical-brain illnesses can be controlled with medication

there is no need to keep people locked up in institutitons ---

THAT's what the lawsuit was about ---

MEANWHILE . . . the idea was that people would be released ... BUT CARED FOR WITH

half-way housing, supervision to ensure that they had guidance and were taking medicines.

Assistance with jobs, etc.

THIS is correct . . .

Then he cut funding and closed places because no one was there, so obviously they were not needed.

As we've been told and well know --- "The lunatics are in charge of our government."

[Truth4Justice]

166. Perhaps US is "crazier" then most, as we have no healthcare for the uninsured, or underpaid .

Affordable healthcare, that is.

[mudesi]

24. You're asking people to think

They would rather just let their emotions rule them. Don't waste your breath.

They are ignorant and afraid.

[file83]

32. There is sick, and then there is SICK.

I categorize this bus guy as SICK.

Jeffrey Dahmer was sick, but even so he wasn't so sick that he didn't know he had to hide it.

This bus guy though was so sick he didn't even know he should hide his crime. He did it, at random, on a bus in front of witnesses. He didn't panic, wasn't in a rage, and witnesses said he just did it very calmly and methodically.

I'm pretty sure they don't come any more detached from reality than this guy.

[HEyHEY]

47. Yeah

It will really be interesting to see what this dude has.

[Odin2005]

131. I'll take a wild guess and say Schizo-Affective Disorder.

Basically a cross between Schizophrenia and Bipolar. Psychosis and Mania in one package...

[defendandprotect]

58. We have to keep trying because ignorance doesn't help us ---

[pacalo]

25. Thank you, HH. What we need is more focus on HELPING the mentally ill!

Like you, I'm assuming the guy was schizophrenic. The guy was among people he didn't know, & I think when he saw the poor guy sleeping with his head phones on, there were thoughts that this guy was "the enemy", possibly "hearing messages" from "them" to do harm to him.

I don't know what it's going to take for these people to get the proper help. I'm thinking the worst, that it will never happen. This world has become too self-centered, selfish, judgmental of what they don't have to experience themselves, & downright cruel.

[Kazak]

26. I can see both sides, but...

maybe someone in his state should know better than to be carrying around a giant hunting knife? Just sayin'! :shrug:

[HEyHEY]

27. Buddy probably had it because he was paranoid

[LostinVA]

35. :His state" was probably the reason he was carrying the knife

[TrogL]

103. We don't have states in Canada

[Critters2]

158. !

:spray:

[TrogL]

172. I should learn to read

state == condition

[cbc5g]

33. I'm against the death penalty, but once you cross THAT threshold sane or not

There is no way you can be allowed back into society. He should go to a mental hospital for the rest of his days.


You know why he looked afraid and sad and alone? He was caught. If he was in the similar mindset he was in on the bus he would have been straight faced. Ever seen a murderer walk with a smiley face to court? If he did that then we would KNOW he was out of his mind. By acting like that, he knew what he did was wrong. He looked guilty. He went nuts, yes, but he has to accept the consequences of it. Thats the law, set up to protect people from killers. I don't agree he deserves death but you know what? I bet he will want it.

We need to treat people BEFORE they go crazy but we should also note that if someone on that bus had a gun, we wouldn't be talking about this. Attack me all you want, but that's the truth. It's a cruel world and you won't know that until you take a trip away from your sheltered world or something like this happens to a loved one of yours.

[HEyHEY]

41. Are you implying that he's proud of himself?

I think he look scared because he's probably in a state of utter confusion.

[LostinVA]

49. He didn't even speak, he hasn't even contacted anyone

[cbc5g]

50. Um no quite the opposite judging by the way he looked going to court

He knew he did wrong. If he was still in his crazed mode he would have had a straight face.

[DebJ]

109. Knowing something is wrong after the act is different than being

able to control your rationality and your actions. A mentally ill person might 'know' it is wrong while committing the act but be unable to control their compulsions.

[LostinVA]

120. Just because you know you did something wrong doesn't mean you aren't insane

Andrea Yates called the police because she knew she had committed a crime, but she was certainly in a severe psychotic state when she killed her children.

[TrogL]

105. We already had the guns on bus argument

...but one thing I didn't add to that thread was that if guns were readily available he'd have one and would have shot up the entire bus instead of killing one person.

...also...

Yes, I've seen a murderer walk smiley face to court - right here in town.

We have almost no information about Li. We don't even know if he's mentally ill.

[lynnertic]

189. I'm sorry 'somenoe on the bus iwth a gun' is not the answer.

you'd only have two bodies instead of one, and two murderers, one dead.

Sorry. A broom handle or a fire extinguisher or a can of mace or even a number of shoes or forchrissakes somebody's bucket of chicken could've gotten the guy's attention. He only had a knife.

[LostinVA]

34. I was told on here he should be killed even if he IS mentally ill

Because he's a waste of air. Glad to know some on DU embrace Nazi policies.

I agree with you 100%. Some of the responses have been disgusting, and the ongoing ignorance of people -- including DUers -- concerning mental illness is shocking.

I alse believe he's mentally ill.

[NashVegas]

36. Can We PLEASE NOT DE-STIGMATIZE CUTTING OFF SOMEONE'S FREAKIN HEAD?

Mentally ill = kleptomania, substance abuse, Turret's, etc. Stuff that's annoying to society, but generally not dangerous.

Criminally insane = something you'd see in a horror movie.

[HEyHEY]

42. We're not de-stigmatizing anything

Mentally ill = cutting off someone's head. Criminally insane is very much a disparaging remark.

[NashVegas]

44. Aw, Come On

Criminal insanity is exactly what it is, HH.

Some things ought to be disparaged and the only thing more mind-boggling than this act, the stuff of which 1700s folk songs are made of, is the idea that we should be more sensitive towards those who cut off someone's freaking head!

[HEyHEY]

46. It's just different degrees of mental illness

If this guy was a schizophrenic and had no idea what was happening, then I'd say it's mentally ill. Criminally insane implies he knew.

[alphafemale]

52. wrong spot

[girl gone mad]

102. If he was schozophrenic..

he must have been on meds most of the time, since he managed to keep a job and lead a pretty normal life. If he had recently decided to stop taking his meds, that leaves a lot of room for criminal responsibility on his part.

[DebJ]

111. being on meds does not mean being stable. Trying to be, yes,

but pschology is still extremely primitive: if it works, do it. If it doesn't, keep trying. Many current psych meds were actually developed to treat other illnesses, and they found out coincidentally that these meds also have some psychiatric benefits. It is ALL hit or miss and guesswork.

[HEyHEY]

115. yup

I actually take anti-depressants for my OCD and it, for the most part, keeps it in check. But, there isn't even a drug treatment (officially) for the disorder. My doc even told me I had a 50/50 chance it would help. Thank god it did.

[DebJ]

118. You are very lucky. My son getsl little to no relief from OCD, the

worst of his problems (BP, OCD, ADD). The pain and agony he goes through tears me up.

[HEyHEY]

128. There's a good clinic at UBC for OCD

90 per cent of the people who do it report significant relief from OCD.

[Prophet 451]

167. Actually, it doesn't

Granted, my training is in British law rather than Canadian but generally, "criminally insane" is defined by the Dicey test: "An illness of mind, such that the accused does not know the quality of their actions or the consequences thereof". Here, such people are judged non compos mentis ("of unsound mind") and considered unfit to stand trial.

Incidently, those words weren't spoken or written by the legal expert John Dicey so I have no idea why it's referred to as the Dicey Test.

[HEyHEY]

211. In Canada

You're found as "Guilty but not criminally responsible." That's the legal term.

[Marrah_G]

263. Disparaging???.........he cut of a kid's HEAD !

I think that is pretty much the definition for criminally insane.

[ZenKitty]

88. He not only cut off his head but he canabalized him...

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/5921202.html

:shudder:

[Midlodemocrat]

210. Legal definition of criminally insane

A mental defect or disease that makes it impossible for a person to understand the wrongfulness of his acts or, even if he understands them, to distinguish right from wrong. Defendants who are criminally insane cannot be convicted of a crime, since criminal conduct involves the conscious intent to do wrong -- a choice that the criminally insane cannot meaningfully make.


Generally, in most court settings, the 'criminally insane' defense has been replaced with 'not guilty due to mental defect or disease'.

Insane is a word that more reputable doctors don't use when treating a mentally ill patient.

[carlyhippy]

38. that man didn't need to be out in society if he was that unstable

no, he doesn't need to die, but at the same time he doesn't need to be out where he has another psychotic fit and kills another innocent bystander. He needs to be institutionalized for the rest of his days IMHO.

[HEyHEY]

43. Oh, I agree completely

He should not be out, that's a given

[Dorian Gray]

39. This is the first thread on the subject

that I have read, but I have confidence in the Canadian courts that if he is mentally ill, he will be found thus so, and the proper action will be taken.

[defendandprotect]

53. It's what our right-wing Supreme Court and neo-cons have been teaching them . .!!!

Patriarchal violence in full sway ---



Yes --- also true that the mentally ill are no more likely than any other group of people

to be violent --- same precentage ---

[alphafemale]

55. I can't imagine what the family expecting to see their beautiful young son is going through now,.

I really don't give a damn if the guy that brutally murdered him was "troubled."

It's way too late for that now.

Lock that freak up for life.

He lost his right to wander...forever.

You disagree?

Fine.

Hire him to babysit your kids.

Make sure he has a knife.

[varkam]

57. Strawman.

You disagree?

Fine.

Hire him to babysit your kids.

I don't believe the OP was saying that he shouldn't be punished, or that he doesn't represent a threat to society.

[HEyHEY]

62. Wow, that was........ dumb

I didn't say he should roam free. The guy is obviously dangerous and should be in an institution. Your words are the kind of hate I'm talking about, "That freak" ext....

[alphafemale]

66. Someone who hacks off a strangers head on a bus...isn't a freakl?

You are calling me out for calling this guy who stabbed a poor kid dozens of times and hacked his head off....a freak.

Sorry but that's some serious freakshow shit as far as I'm concerned.

[HEyHEY]

68. Yeah, I guess I am

Yes, he's obviously done something terrible, but he's seriously mentally ill and probably had no idea what he was doing. You may as well be insulting a mentally handicapped person because you are calling someone degrading names based on something they have no control over.

[alphafemale]

75. No control over stopping himself from hacking a kid's head off?

All the more reason to lock him up for fucking ever.
'
This wasn't washing his hands 46 times a day.
This wasn't weeping silently in the dark.
This wasn't drawing naughty pictures of the teacher.

He. Hacked. Off. A. Kids. Head.

[HEyHEY]

77. Yes, and do you really think someone who was mentally ill

Or Schizophrenic would go ahead and do that if they COULD stop themselves. This guy's brain went haywire on him, he probably had no idea what he was doing. And of course he should be institutionalized. But, name-calling and hatred for someone who suffers from an illness that made them do this is just not fair.

[alphafemale]

95. And do you understand that if someone can't control the urge to hack off a person's head....

That is all the more reason to lock him in a small room...FOREVER!

Slide him his meals through a crack for the next 70 years or so.

[HEyHEY]

112. See where you're making the disconnect

Is that this guy was even mentally aware. For all we know his regular consience was completely blacked out. I certainly am glad he's in custody. But I refuse to lick my chops at the thought of his demise like he was a person who of sound mind and body chose to do this.

[alphafemale]

175. I'm not licking my chops.

But that guy can absolutely never walk among us again.

Please tell me that you agree.

[TrogL]

178. If you had actually read the thread, you would have seen he's been agreeing with this all along

[DebJ]

117. The question mark at the end of your statement shows that you

think 'mental' illness is something over which a person has control. Which means they would not be mentally ill. They can't 'think' themselves out of their illness anymore than a diabetic can. Why is it so difficult for people to understand what is actually simply a definition of mental illness?????? You would not expect a man who lost his legs to get up and walk . . . because you can SEE that he can't. Why can't you understand that the brain is also a physical organ, and that it malfunctions? (Or, compassion would be nice.) Sigh. I believe in karma, and that it is a learning tool. If you don't learn this now, you may learn it in a most uncomfortable way later. From the Mom of a bipolar child.

[Odin2005]

132. It's the curse of libertarian-capitalist "personal responsibillity" thinking.

For example, I have Asperger's Syndrome, which basically means I am a high-functioning autistic. I couldn't count how many times I have been called lazy, are accused of not paying attention, because of my sensory, motor and perceptual issues. I also have Depression and sometimes find it very difficult to find the ambition to do anything.

[Truth4Justice]

163. Same reason they don't see chronic illness. They don't see the pain that many unseen illnesses have.

[LisaL]

83. Oh cry me a river.

I personally couldn't care less as to WTF is wrong with this guy. Lock him up and throw away the keys.

[HEyHEY]

92. I agree he shouldn't be roaming the streets

But, I don't agree with the way people are spouting off as if the guy had a clue what he was doing.

[Marrah_G]

264. And you don't know that he didn't. None of us do

Maybe he is criminally insane and doesn't understand what he did or maybe he is just evil and knew exactly what he was doing.

[DebJ]

114. Please define 'freak'. I can't see this as anything but a slur word.

[alphafemale]

126. freak=cutting off heads

how's that

And I can't believe that people are actually seeing this freak as a victim.

You sit next to him on the bus once the poor baby is released...'kay?'

[HEyHEY]

129. He's not the victim of a decapitation, but he is the victim of

A terrible mental disorder he never asked for.

[alphafemale]

173. And a dog doesn't ask for Rabies either. But when it happens you have to deal with it.

Some things are just too dangerous to allow much room for sympathy.

[HEyHEY]

218. That's a terrible thing to say

[EstimatedProphet]

269. You put a dog down if it has rabies, because that's self-defense

You don't gloat over it, like you're doing.

[DebJ]

113. 'freak' . Lovely. Just lovely. Thriving on fear will not resolve

the problem nor keep things like this from happening in the future. All that does is rev up your emotions. . . nasty, negative emotions. Anger, fear, and hatred: right wing Bushie approach to life. It is this kind of approach that keeps us from having parity for mental health care and forces people who want and need meds to not be able to get them.

[NashVegas]

186. Fear Of Expressing Emotions

Is itself, an emotional illness that can lead to mental illness when you've bottle-necked for years.

The important thing is to know when your fears, angers, etc., are irrational or completely rational, and whether or not it's appropriate to express them.

[LostinVA]

122. The ignorance in this post is astounding -- as well as the callousness

But, thanks to HeyHey's excellent respond, I don't need to waste my time trying to educate someone who doesn't want to be educated.

The NAZIS killed the mentally ill. Remember that.

[alphafemale]

177. No...Callousness is hacking off a kid's head with a knife.

Get a grip.

[LostinVA]

197. No, that's mental illness,a nd reports released today prove I and many other posters are right

Liu has a history of mental illness and paranoid episodes.

I don't need to get a grip, but YOU do need to get some education about mental illness. And, I'd say the only callousness in this thread is by you and others' ignorant attitude toward the mentally ill. I honestly do hope none of your loved ones are never diagnosed with any mental illness.

[alphafemale]

212. I just hope a loved ones head isn't hacked off by a freak.

Listen. I do have loved ones struggling with mental illness.
Bi-Polar, OCD , Depressive.

I can't imagine a one of them hacking off somebody's head. And I would want them locked up immediately if they did.

There's mental illness and then there's monstrous batshit crazy.

I really can't believe there are so many people wanting to defend this

[LostinVA]

247. Please link to any post I made where I defend the killer

Thank you.

Also, BPD, OCD and depression are different than being psychotic. Comparing those shows you know nothing about mental illness.

The more I read your posts, the more I'm convinced this is just some intellectual masturbation exercise for you. I'm done with you.

[Marrah_G]

265. I do hope you agree he needs to be in a locked down mental health prison somewhere.

Regardless of any pity we may feel because of his illness, he needs to be separated from society, for good. To allow him out would mean he could choose to stop taking meds and do this to another person or persons.

[NashVegas]

187. The NAZIS Were Criminally Insane

Who over-rationalized to the point where they justified sending other humans into gas ovens.

[Evoman]

261. I hate people who argue like you.

No sense, no reason.....pure, unadulterated emotion and strawmen argument. If life were a movie, you would be holding a torch with the other idiot villagers.

[WeDidIt]

59. Sorry, I support the death penalty

and anybody who murders anybody else is mentally ill, in my opinion. It's no excuse.

Murderers do not deserve their own life, period.

[HEyHEY]

60. Do you not understand that this guy

Was likely not even in control of his own actions? As in completely unaware of what was happening?

[WeDidIt]

64. Oh, I'm fully aware of that!

Which is why I would support the DP for him even more.

[HEyHEY]

69. Then you're a barbarian. Should we kill people with DS too?

Frankly your hatred hurts.

[WeDidIt]

70. It's not hatred. It's logic.

This man is too dangerous to allow to live. His actions prove how much of a danger he is to society at large.

[HEyHEY]

71. Yes, so lock him up

You don't have to kill someone. If the person is mentally ill to the point that they couldn't even grasp what was happening then you can't hold them criminally responsible.

[WeDidIt]

84. Any person who kill another person is mentally ill

That's a given, IMO.

It's no excuse, though. They give up the right to live the moment they take another life.

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.

[HEyHEY]

93. You can't even make a comparison like that

A guy who shoots and kills in a liqour store robbery is not the same as a guy who suddenly hacks off a strangers head.

[WeDidIt]

141. I see no difference

Both gave up their right to live by taking away somebody else's right to live.

[HEyHEY]

154. He didn't know he was taking it away

It wasn't him. You ge that/

[WeDidIt]

184. He did it, so that is immaterial

HE is a danger to society and has no right to live, IMO.

[LostinVA]

198. Again: the Nazis killed the mentally ill -- civilized nations don't do that

[WeDidIt]

219. Godwin's law

This thread is now long enough.

[LostinVA]

248. That's not applicable, because they DID kill the mentally ill, which you are suggesting we do

"It does not apply to discussions directly addressing genocide, propaganda, or other mainstays of the Nazi regime."

[WeDidIt]

251. Godwin's Law, dude. You lost your argument by going there.

[LostinVA]

252. Godwin's Law is not applicable here

[WeDidIt]

260. BWAHAHAHAHA

Too funny. You resorted to a comparison to NAzis. That proves you ahve no argument any longer.

[sammythecat]

267. I feel your frustration with this person.

A valiant effort in vain. He/she just isn't listening. At all. I don't know what someone with this level of meanness and ignorance is doing on DU. This is the norm on some other sites, but it's very sad and discouraging to see it here.

[LostinVA]

127. You can have your own opinion but not your own facts

Your facts are WRING: you need to learn the difference between sociopaths and the mentally ill. Bundy was a sociopath, Andre Yates was mentally ill.

Such unprogressive hatred and gleeful anticipation of violence toward mentally ill people is beyond shocking. People without empathy are sociopaths themselves.

[ColbertWatcher]

82. "It's logic"? Sorry, but your "reasoning" is not logical at all. n/t

[Prophet 451]

168. No, it's not

You and I have similar views on the death penalty but this case isn't about that, this is an issue of criminal liability. Under the law, if his disturbance had reached such a pitch that he was unaware of the nature of his actions, then he is judged legally insane and therefore, not criminally liable for his actions. Now, that's not to say that he shouldn't be confined to an institution for the rest of his days (as he almost certainly will be) but if he is not criminally liable, it is illogical to execute the man (unless he proves to be some kind of houdini who can't be institutionalised).

[MonkeyFunk]

104. Don't bother HeyHey

some idiots just like to spout off ignorantly and pretend it's wisdom they're shitting all over the place.

[sniffa]

86. Wow

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

125. You do realize the Nazis killed the mentally ill?

I never thought I'd see these words on DU, but several of you are licking your chops at murdering the sick.

[mitchum]

146. The difference being that the Nazis killed them merely for being mentally ill

not for being mentally ill people who committed horrific murders
but you already know that

[pecwae]

174. Yes, DP for all mentally ill.

Then expand the definition for mentally ill to include all who do not act in a prescribed manner such as, I don't know, say politically opposed to 'society at large'.

Your statement is frightening and sickening.

[Clintonista2]

188. Executing the mentally ill?

Are you sure you're on the right forum?

[LostinVA]

123. If Liu is mentally ill, then he didn't murder anyone, just like Andrea Yates

He killed someone. There is a huge difference.

And, the Nazis murdered the mentally ill. Bush did as governor of Texas. Civilized people don't kill the mentally ill.

I think you need to educate yourself about the difference between the mentally ill and sociopaths. You have the twp interwined.

The ignorance on this subjevct -- especially on here -- confounds and appalls me.

[Evoman]

262. People like you deserve the country you get.

[defendandprotect]

61. Either we recognize this as NORMAL behavior ..... do we?

Or we recognize it as ABNORMAL behavior --- and I think that's clear!

Therefore, this individual is mentally ill --- suffering a chemical imbalance ---

and what many here are simply trying to point out is that this man wasn't in a

state of mind which provided for normal behavior.


Let's try to stick with the obvious --- mentally ill.

[NashVegas]

80. And Some Of Us Are Saying ...

That to say, "wow, how sad the guy was mentally ill," is to shrug off his quite heinous actions.

That's not mentally ill, that's criminally insane. The minute you go hacking off a stranger's head, you become such a threat to society that there's no freaking way it's going to tolerate your presence among society, for its own safety.

Diminishing the FREAKHOOD of someone who cut off a random person's fucking head because you don't want to say something mean, is saying something mean to non-dangerous mentally ill people.

You cannot lump this guy in the same class of people who are not quite all there, but nonetheless are not a danger to others.

[HEyHEY]

91. I'm not lumping him in at all

ALl mental illness is different, but it's still just that, mental illness

[EFerrari]

124. Things really aren't that neat at all. Even in the behavior of one individual,

things aren't that neat.

[defendandprotect]

133. I'm glad you agree that he's "insane" . . . cause that's the point . . .

And Some Of Us Are Saying ...
That to say, "wow, how sad the guy was mentally ill," is to shrug off his quite heinous actions.

And, how is saying that he is mentally ill the same as "shrugging off his quite heinous actions" . . . ?????

How . . . ?

No one says that anyone who has committed violence should be allowed free.

And how does saying that someone is mentally ill somehow equal to "diminishing the freakhood of someone who cut off a random person's fucking head because you don't want to say something mean"-

How . . . ?

Evidently you're upset because we are saying "mentally ill" and not "criminally insane" --- ?
Then call it "criminally insane."

Do you somehow think that anyone is going to let this man out on the streets again?

Look at Bush/Cheney and look at the men who kill their wives and tell me that we know from
one minute to the next who is the greatest danger to any of us --- to all of the world -- !!!

Many people will want a response that in their mind is equal to the crime ---

Is that what you want?

Should we assign someone to rip his head off?

[Prophet 451]

169. It's a difference of degrees

Look, I'm mentally ill. I can't speak for everyone with mental illness but, if I'm typical, I suspect many of us have been plagued by nightmares of what we would do if our grip on reality ever completely slips. I can't be sure but I think there's a certain amount of "there but for the grace of god" about what we're saying here.

[Tindalos]

72. It's good to hear a voice of reason on this topic

Some of the posts on this subject have been unbelievably ignorant and hateful. Truth is, we don't know what the truth is yet. As you say, this guy probably has a mental illness but we won't know that until he's been examined by a psychiatrist. Once the RCMP have investigated, the courts will decide what to do with him (jail or hospital). We don't need vigilante justice or the death penalty to deal with this.

[brentspeak]

73. The vast majority of mentally-ill people don't go around killing people

What people are saying about the killer-in-question is the least of his concerns right now, psychotic or not.

[HEyHEY]

78. What does that have to do with anything?

Yes, the vast majority don't which tells you the severity of this guy's illness.

[mokawanis]

74. After 10 years of working in a psychiatric hospital

it's obvious to me that the guy suffered from a mental illness, probably paranoid schizophrenia, and as such should not be thrown in prison forever as punishment. Chances are that giving him the right treatment with an initial emphasis on prescribing effective medications would bring him out of a state of psychosis and restore some measure of functionality.

Another issue is the guy's history, which I know nothing about. Has he been in treatment long-term? Was he court-ordered to take medications? If so, it's entirely reasonable to hold him accountable, to some degree, for not complying with the structured treatment plan. Had he taken the medication prescribed chances are good he would not have spiraled downward into a dangerous state of delusional thinking. I suppose the details will come out in court but to me it's glaringly obvious that the guy had a major mental illness.

[defendandprotect]

136. You cannot -- nor should anyone ever suggest --- that this guy would

ever again be a free man ---

[mitchum]

142. I agree that with rights come responsibilities

"Was he court-ordered to take medications? If so, it's entirely reasonable to hold him accountable, to some degree, for not complying with the structured treatment plan. Had he taken the medication prescribed chances are good he would not have spiraled downward into a dangerous state of delusional thinking"

[madeline_con]

76. Can he stay with you while he goes to rehab?

Lord knows he doesn't belong in prison!

[HEyHEY]

79. He doesn't belong in prison

He belongs in a hospital.

[madeline_con]

81. Hopefully locked in. n/t

[HEyHEY]

94. I imagine he will be

[alphafemale]

191. Forever +10 years

[Prophet 451]

171. rehab is for addicts, not sick people

We have very secure hospitals for exactly this kind of thing.

[ColbertWatcher]

87. I've read this whole thread.

And it strikes me that many may have misinterpreted the OP.

Like all "suspects", he gets his day in court, he gets a lawyer to present his case before a judge and jury.

I am saddened to read the comments that have already tried the "suspect" without benefit of due process. Is this not what the Bush administration has been doing with Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and rendering?

A young man's life has ended and the person responsible is in custody. There is no need for us to jump to conclusions; especially when misconceptions about mental illness are repeated.

If you do not personally know someone with mental illness, if you've never worked in the psychiatric ward of a hospital and you make comments regarding how he should be sentenced before his trial, then please understand that you sound like Rush Limbaugh diagnosing Michael J. Fox: you are cruel and ignorant.

Please educate yourself and show some compassion.

[ZenKitty]

89. I have a problem with people that eat other people!!

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/5921202.html

[devilgrrl]

96. And I have a problem with the American news reporting unnamed sources that the Canadians aren't.

Not one Canadian news report mentions cannibalism - at least not at the moment. Yet all the reports from US news outlets (Associated Press :eyes:) covering the story do mention it - "according to a police tape leaked on the Internet Saturday" - no less.

Didn't a guy recently quit ABC News because he had to "jazz" up his stories? He was told to refer to defendants as "thugs" and "scum", etc.

Considering the abysmal state of the US media, did anyone ever stop to think for a minute?

[ColbertWatcher]

97. Who knows?

The man was ill and needed help.

No matter what other crap they find or create (he had sex with the corpse!) he needs to get treatment from medical professionals.

[devilgrrl]

99. Why don't we wait for the FACTS! It may take a bit but they'll eventually come out.

eom

[ColbertWatcher]

106. True, we should wait for the FACTS. n/t

[ZenKitty]

98. Well, I apologize...

I didn't know that the AP was verboten. I read the latest on this story and it just really upset me.

[ColbertWatcher]

100. Welcome to DU...

...personally I've found to take the first few accounts about a big event with a grain of salt.

Information changes so much and important details sometimes take days, maybe weeks before they become available.

It's so hard to know what's valid and what isn't at least this early.

[TrogL]

107. AP isn't verboten

We try to post original sources here, not one source quoting another, quoting a "leak".

[HEyHEY]

119. Hard to say on that one

AP gets their stuff from CP and then claims it's AP... but they may have sent someone up there.

[mitchum]

108. Well, of course he looked alone...

crazy motherfuckers who saw off heads don't have a very large peer group.

[HEyHEY]

121. THey do in afghanistan

[mitchum]

140. Maybe he was planning on taking the bus all the way to there...

and if that is so, he is a very crazy motherfucker.
Everyone knows that a train is required for that.

[alphafemale]

194. OK. Now that's funny.

In a really dark, dark way.

I feel really bad for laughing. :P

[caseymoz]

130. If he just happened to be carrying a butcher-sized knife with him

I'd say it's more-than-likely he was in a psychotic episode.

I don't know if I could go as far as hate-speech, because a glance at the results is just shocking.

[EFerrari]

134. Welcome to DU, casey. I hope you're not packing.

:)

[HEyHEY]

153. yeah

But, casey, when you hear people advocate for HIS death and such... you see the hatred feuled by ignorance. Hence, hate speech.

[Odin2005]

135. The bigotry against the mentally ill in this thread is disgusting.

:puke:

[mzmolly]

143. I have both OCD and Schizophrenia in my family.

I admit to having very mixed feelings about this case. Jeffrey Dahmer was not legally insane. This in spite of the fact that he cannibalized his victims etc.

The first thing that came to mind when I heard of this tragedy was schizophrenia. Then I thought about the fact that the murderer brought a knife and a scissors on the bus. He also attempted to escape by driving the bus, which leads me to believe he had some idea about his surroundings? He also chose a small, sleeping victim which again leads me to question the notion that he didn't have some insight into what he was doing?

I'll await more information, but I agree with your overall premise. We should not judge the person responsible until we know more. Mental illness is not a choice, it's an illness.

[mitchum]

145. IIRC, he also changed seats which placed him beside the small, sleeping victim

There seems to be quite a bit of pre- and post- conscious activity surrounding "he didn't know what he was doing"

[EFerrari]

148. But there's a difference between being unconscious and

losing your insight.

Psychotic events don't necessarily involved something like a "black out". They do usually involve losing your insight as in, logical consequence, empathy and so on.

In other words, you know what you are doing in the moment but you don't know what it means.

[EFerrari]

147. My ex used to do things that would curl your hair

and after the fact, sit down and watch t.v.

It wasn't that he didn't care -- he just wasn't "there".

And some of those awful things were very well planned because in his paranoia, he was hyper aware and planned those events as if his life depended on being that careful. His psychotic episodes could last for days.

[mzmolly]

205. Good point sfexpat.

Hope he's doing ok today?

[EFerrari]

227. I don't know but hope so, too.

:)

[mitchum]

144. Unfortunately, despite the cliche, mental illness is rarely a"private hell"

more often than not it is shared with others.

[HEyHEY]

151. Mitchum, I like ya,dude, but I take offense to that

The nights when I had no idea what was wrong with me and I ended up screaming into my pillow were a little worse than the nights where I drank alone until I puked. But, after five years of that, I finally got help and told the people who care about me.

EDIT: I was a lucky one... I was so scared my family would not understand. But, shit, they have been amazing.

[mitchum]

222. My apologies....

I was a bit too brief and cryptic and I certainly understand why it seemed that I was being callous.
I was speaking from experience with both sides of this (having my own diagnosed problems and dealing with the problems of loved ones)
I have dealt with the guilt of "inflicting" the fallout of my problems on loved ones.
I have experienced feelings of frustration and helplessness in that I could not take away the problems of loved ones who have their own mental illnesses.
Like you, I am fortunate in that my loved ones are also amazing.
Once again, please accept my apologies
and take care

[HEyHEY]

223. No worries, dude

:-)

[TrogL]

161. Nobody believes you, nobody can explain what's going on

and the meds don't work. You're left in your own private little hell.

[TwilightGardener]

150. Yeah, I feel bad for the guy. All that slashing, stabbing, hacking,

and consuming of human flesh must have been terribly upsetting for him. Poor dear. You've got to be kidding me. I feel bad for the mentally ill, but my sympathy runs out real quick for true monsters--it was like the Grim Reaper himself sat down next to that poor kid, he didn't stand a chance. He chose his victim carefully--even changed bus seats halfway thru the trip, just to sit next to this small young man traveling alone. He was a predator. No pity.

[HEyHEY]

152. not asking for pity as much as understanding

[EFerrari]

156. People don't get the difference between understanding something

and agreeing with it.

This was a good thread. HEyHEY. Thank you.

[HEyHEY]

157. And thank you

I knew I'd get both kinds of people. And I'm glad people like you were here to make the case for those who are ill.

[NashVegas]

183. "To Understand, Is to Forgive"

They say in France. Right now is not the time to be forgiving of this fellow.

[EFerrari]

192. If that were true, it would be impossible to study crime or

criminal behavior as crime or criminal behavior.

[ColbertWatcher]

180. You know, I'm kinda glad you posted this...

...even though you're half joking.

I think the problem here is the same problem with most horrific crimes: we (the people watching from a safe distance) tend to automatically call the suspect a monster, removing him from the rest of us (we're not monsters; we're human!)

Please understand, this man was clearly suffering from something that has not yet been described in the press. Regardless, he is as human as we all are.

[LostinVA]

200. The mentally ill are NOT "perdators," ie sosicopaths

They are psychotic. One is an illness one is a personality disorder. And, as news today says Liu has a long history of paranoia and mental illness, I'd guess we were all right: he is not a sociopath.

Andrea Yates was aware she was killing her children carefully planned it. She is also mentally ill and not a murderer/sociopath, as a clean trial showed.

[HEyHEY]

155. Man, after all this

I've come to the conclusion people don't get it. When I was in my worst OCD episode do you think I wanted to mumble and put glasses down ten times in a row and scream if I forced myself to do it? Do you think I wanted to be frozen on the couch for hours because I couldn't get up until I was sure I had it all plannned out?

I didn't want any of that.

Just like I'm sure this guy, when not in an epsiode, didn't want to cut some poor kid's head off.

[NashVegas]

185. I Get it, I Just Don't Think It's Inappropriate

I don't know if you're trying to say, "There, but for the grace of god, go I." which I could understand and sympathize with and if that's so, you could just come out and say it ... and I'd guarantee you my sympathy.

or if it's more like "There, but for the grace of god, go I and many other people and you're ignorant if you don't understand," which, IMO, is inappropriate right now, and insulting.

This was a horrific act. Society needs to express its horror as a way of reinforcing for all how unacceptable it is.

[HEyHEY]

216. Society doesn't need to re-enforce how awful ....

Cutting someone's head of and gutting them is. I think it's a given that it's not cool.

[Ellen Forradalom]

159. What happened is way beyond fucked up

No ordinary explanation will suffice. I agree, it will be interesting, to say the least, to find out what this person's story is.

[arthritisR_US]

203. I want him sent back to his home country...they say he was having

marital difficulties so let him work those out back home.

[Withywindle]

160. I respect what you're trying to here, but I'm not buying this approach completely.

I totally agree that there is still waaayyyyy too much ignorance and prejudice regarding mental illness.


I just think the guy who did THIS is never ever ever going to be a successful poster child for education and compassion. Not when there are so many millions of people with illnesses who are suffering who haven't, in fact, gruesomely murdered someone.

I have a friend with Schizo-Affective Disorder. She's undergoing some treatments that seem to be helping a little, but I still worry I'm going to lose her to suicide one day. When she's in the worst of it, she wants to die, and from the way she describes what the inside of her head is like, frankly I can't say I blame her or would feel differently in her place.

If this guy is bad enough off to do something this horrific, it's entirely possible that killing him would be experienced by him as a kindness. We don't know for sure that "suicide by cop" didn't figure at all in his twisted intentions, do we?

[TrogL]

165. I hate to say it, but I know what I'm going to use this for

To lobby for better funding for mental health in this province.

It's next to impossible to find a competent shrink or get an appointment except at psychiatric emerge. All they do there is shoot you up with larjactyl (sp?) and let you go.

[ColbertWatcher]

181. Suicide by cop? That happens in LA, not Canada.

And I also have to disagree with you; he is the perfect poster child.

You say you can't blame your friend for feeling like she wants to die, nor do you feel you'd feel any differently. You say you understand that when your friend is in the middle of "the worst of it", try imagining what this poor guy was going through.

He is in police custody, he will get a trial. He won't go free, too many witnesses saw him kill the innocent young man.

However, if there is anyone who is the so-called "poster child" of untreated mental illness, it is this guy. And I guess that means on the whole, we're all the "poster society" for ignorance and lack of compassion about mental illness.

[AZBlue]

162. Love the polar bear!!

And you're right - it's disgusting to see such ignorance and hate flaunted so freely.

[Prophet 451]

164. But...

I suffer from what's called Major Depressive Disorder in the US (here, it's called Type III Clinical Depression), I understand what you're saying. However, there is a difference between those of us who are mentally ill and those of us who are 5150 (that is, legally insane). Yes, this man should get treatment but the severity of his disturbance is such that he should be gettin git in some kind of secure facility. Yes, we should have some compassion for him but it's as important that he be removed from society until he no longer poses a danger. I would hope that if my own illness ever gets that out of control, someone will do the same for me.

One last thing, if I've misunderstood what you were getting at, my apologies.

[ellie]

190. Hi HEyHEy

I don't know anything about the Canadian system of justice. Does he get a lawyer appointed to him? Then what happens? I imagine there is a hearing to determine competency, but I don't know since it is Canada and I watch too much Law & Order. I read an article where his employer said that he was the model employee. I always wonder about these people who snap one day. I know in this country that mental health is an issue that is frequently ignored, apparently it happens in other places too.

[HEyHEY]

213. He will have one appointed

He didn't say anything in court. And, while you do have the right to represent yourself, in this case the judge will overrule that right and appoint a lawyer because this guy is not capable (It appears) of making a sound decision about representation.

[kitty1]

193. In his native China, mental illness is considered shameful......

and many people deny their symptoms rather than get the necessary help needed.
According to the Winnipeg Free Press article I read today, such was the case with Li.
On the surface he seemed quite rational and normal, but there was something not right about him. He seemed like a lost soul according to people who had known him here in Winnipeg. He seemed lost and behaved erratically at times.
Always paranoid that people were out to get him. He very likely was schizophenic.
It's too bad that he grew up with this stigma towards mental illness.
I can imagine there are a lot of suppressed people in China living with mental illness because of this or know people close to them who are.

[mzmolly]

206. I read much the same thing. I was also disturbed to read that the father

was asked to identify the body. Seems to me in cases like this they should use another means to ID a person?

Such a tragic story in every way. :( My condolences to all involved, including the people of Winnipeg.

[dkf]

195. I'm not sure if he was mentally ill or if he had an intense craving to eat human flesh.

Police tape: Canada bus killer ate victim's flesh

By CHARMAINE NORONHA – 17 hours ago

TORONTO (AP) — A police officer at the scene of a grisly beheading on a Canadian bus reported seeing the attacker hacking off pieces of the victim's body and eating them, according to a police tape leaked on the Internet Saturday.

In the tape of radio transmissions, a Royal Canadian Mounted Police officer refers to the attacker as "Badger" and says he is armed with a knife and scissors and is "defiling the body at the front of the bus as we speak."

On the tape, which lasts about 80 seconds, officers continue to detail the attacker's movements until one reports, "Badger's at the back of the bus, hacking off pieces and eating it."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hx-mB9K812hwZqPx4HhsRsgjT7YwD92AF3M80

[LisaL]

199. I guess they didn't shot him because the victim was already dead?

One would hope they would have shot him if he was cutting up a victim who was still alive.

[dkf]

201. I thought I read that they locked him up in the bus with the dead victim

while they waited for the police.

Here it is:

On the recording, one officer describes the suspect -- who police code-named Badger -- as he moved around the bus, which was barricaded by the driver and a passenger.

"Badger is armed with a knife and a pair of scissors and he is defiling the body at the front of the bus as we speak," an officer says on the transmission.

The transmission ends, "OK, Badger's at the back of the bus, hacking off pieces and eating it."

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Canada/2008/08/03/6341116-sun.html

[arthritisR_US]

202. he stabbed the guy to death, decapitated him and then gutted

him like a deer. Repulsive savagery and I say deport him to his country of origin.

[HEyHEY]

214. It is repulsive, yes, but this guy is not sound of mind

And ya can't realy treat him like a regular criminal.

[Midlodemocrat]

208. Wow. Amazing amount of ignorance about mental health issues in this thread.

Am I still on DU? :shrug:

Calling for the death penalty for someone who is this sick? Sick enough to stab a boy to death, decapitate him and start eating the body parts?

Jesus fucking Christ, people.

[wvbygod]

209. He should not be killed. Minimum life in prison tho.

Would you agree that this sick fuck should never see the light of day as long as he lives?

[HEyHEY]

215. PLease don't call him a sick fuck

The guy never asked for whatever problem he has. But, yeah, for the sake of public safety he should not be allowed out of an institution of some kind.

[wvbygod]

220. Ok then, the evil fuck.

Whatever his mindstate was when he took another persons life and had fun doing it,
he can never be a free man again.

[HEyHEY]

221. "Had fun"

He probably didn't even know he did it. He was likely in a state of psychosis.

[wvbygod]

257. Except he tried to escape and drive the bus

He is likely a sick and evil fuck.

[alphafemale]

224. Yeah, this is rising to Freddy Krueger, Jason Voorhees level of evil fuck.

I think the guy knew exactly what he was doing and enjoyed it.

And he'd enjoy feasting on the blood of all those on this thread rushing to his defense too.

Why are some people unwilling to realize that there IS evil in this world?

[HEyHEY]

228. You can't POSSIBLY be serious?

Evil is someone like Kim Jong Ill or even WIllie Pickton, people who KNOW what they're doing and enjoy and keep doing it. If this guy was actually premeditating this and such he'd of hidden it so he could do it again.

[alphafemale]

230. Yes I'm serious.

If hacking off a person's head doesn't earn you the "evil" card...what does?

[HEyHEY]

232. I don't know why this is hard for you to get

"He" likely wasn't even there mentally. He likely doesn't even remember what happened he likely blakced out and had no actual consience thoughts going through his mind, his brain just probably shut down and only basic motor skills and whatever caused him to kill were running. You think when he's not in an episode he wanted to do something like this? He'd probably be just as horrified as you at the thought.

[alphafemale]

236. All the more reason to lock him away forever.

He can't stop himself from hacking off heads?

Just lock him up.

Then you can go and cuddle his poor, misunderstood, stranger-beheading self behind razor wire and 3ft concrete walls all the live-long day.

[HEyHEY]

239. you have so much hatred in you - I'm sorry.

[alphafemale]

240. No hatred. Just sense. Some people have to be seperated from the rest of us,

You go hug the SOB.

Maybe you'll hold your illusions long enough for him to hack your head off with a melted sharpened plastic spoon.

[HEyHEY]

242. I don't have illusions and I haven't alluded to him needing a hug

All I've said is that there's no point hating him.... that doesn't mean I condone jerking him off.

[LostinVA]

245. Your ID is sooo transparent, you know

:eyes:

[alphafemale]

249. My ID means Momma. In wolf hierarchy the alphafemale is Momma.

Sheesh.


You've got nothing better than hating on somebody for a frakin' screen name?

[LostinVA]

244. Why are some people on here so willfully ignoranmt

of the difference between mentally ill and sociopaths? And why are people whoa dvocate executing the mentally ill like the fucking Nazis posting on a Democratic board?

[LostinVA]

243. He's not a sociopath, he'e mentally ill

Oh boy, HeyHey, what a fuckedup thread.

[wvbygod]

256. He tried to escape after comitting the murder

A sign of guilt and evil.

[rucky]

226. Are any killers sane?

How is this one different?

[mzmolly]

229. Yep.

Many of those who kill are sane.

[HEyHEY]

231. There's a difference between shooting someone in a botched robbery

And chopping someone's head off for no reason and feasting on their body.

[rucky]

233. A difference to whom?

I'm not trying to trick you, I just really don't see a difference - especially from the victim's perspective.

[HEyHEY]

234. Motives, mental state

People in the army kill all the time, people that would regularily not. The sane, rational human is still capable of killing another person.

This guy was mentally ill, he didn't make a sane choice to do what he did. (Likely)

[rucky]

237. If the diagnosis is poor impulse control...

what's with the Rambo knife? Has he displayed these impulses in the past? If not, what's to day it's mental illness (and what's with the knife)? If so, why was he allowed to roam freely with a weapon like that? Who's his caregiver? Whose responsibility was he?

Did he express remorse afterwards? What does that tell us? the more cold-blooded, the more insane?

Too many questions to jump to any conclusion. The facts we know are pretty awful, though.

[HEyHEY]

238. probably had the knife because of his condition.

[EFerrari]

241. Once on Christmas Eve, my ex stormed out of our room

holding a broom akimbo, into the hallway as if my son and I (who were talking in the livingroom at the time) were in some way threatening him. We were just lucky that no one got clobbered.

The truth is that people who have these problems aren't in anyone's care except their own and in the care of family members who try to do that job. The last ditch is the police when they are called in.

We don't take care of mental illness so we can expect it to take care of us. Sad but mostly true.

[sammythecat]

268. Are you really saying you can't tell the difference between

a thug shooting a store clerk and a lunatic going berserk? The thug is deserving of contempt and punishment. The lunatic is NOT IN CONTROL. They are no more in control of their actions than the rest of us are when we dream. Their daytime reality is just as scrambled and incomprehensible as our dreamlike state. They are DETACHED from reality.

To feel contempt and desire punishment for a lunatic is just as irrational and stupid as firing artillery into the sky whenever someone is killed by lightening.

ps. I don't know if "lunatic" is politically correct or not, but, for the sake of plainness, that's the word I'm going with here.

[LostinVA]

246. Sociopaths are totally sane, and most killers are sociopaths, not mentally ill

They ahve no conscience, no empathy, and NOTHING can or will ever make them "normal," because they ahve an extreme personality disorder. They are, in the vernacular, evil.

[AngryAmish]

258. Most killing is done in the heat of a moment

Now this is a little nit-picky so lease forgive me but...murders tend to come from 2 sources mostly. Criminals kill other criminals and domestic violence. In both cases the killers tend not to be classic sociopaths. It is done in the heat of the moment because criminals have poor impulse control. (So do sociopaths, but the real sociopath are not too common. I am sure you have met some over the years - they stick out. In the last ten years I met maybe 3. And most sociopaths are not killers.)

The city where I live is high crime. Most of the murders are one street gang member having a beef with another (either inside the gang or another gang) over a girl, drugs or money. These people are definitely not the cool sociopath that one imagines. They tend to be low IQ and have awful impulse control. Plus they are drunk and/or high on some drugs. Words spoken, guns get drawn, boom - a corpse on the ground.

(Also men by far, far do most of the murders.) Domestic murders also tend to be with a drunk/high man abusing his wife (or more likely girlfriend) just going farther than he intended under the heat of an argument. (and this does not excuse any domestic violence)

Anyway, there are studies that prove these things that I am too lazy to look up - so feel free not to believe me. Cheers.

[treestar]

253. It seems part of the human condition

There are people who are mentally ill and if poor, it goes untreated. Subconsciously, the reason is those people who are not mentally ill perhaps, but do need to feel superior to someone. If stuff like this happens, they have someone to feel superior too. That's why they are so loud in their protestations. They are enjoying their superiority to a person whose mental illness was catastrophic (theirs is relatively mild, but they are getting their fix).

Most of them are for the death penalty, for that very reason. Every execution gives them a chance to get that fix. I don't know if there are people who are for the death penalty and not like that. I've never run across them in the U.S. But if they existed, they would see the carried out execution in a calm manner, with a bit of sadness for the human condition (as opposed to the put-on joy at the happening of the execution).

[SidneyCarton]

259. I have considered this myself...

Much of the outrage is shock talking. (I suppose this is somewhat heartening, we are still not callous enough to look on a brutal murder and dismemberment without shock.) If this person is mentally ill, as I see as likely, he needs to be locked up, as he is obviously a danger to himself and others. If not, then he is a sociopath, and locking him up is a necessity for the protection of everyone else.

The death penalty makes no difference under these situations, if it worked in any way like it does in the US, he'd spend at least 20 years awaiting execution, and would have at least as much a chance of dying of old age as to falling under the sword of the state.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

266. Hope He Never Sees The Light Of Day Again.

Fuckin sick bastard he is.