H-1B Visas Lead to More U.S. Jobs

[ardvark]

Source: Wall Street Journal

Our research shows that hiring H-1B visa holders is associated with increases in employment at U.S technology companies in the S&P 500 ("Work-Visa Numbers Get Squishy -- and Get Played," The Numbers Guy, April 1).

One reason the study has been widely cited is because it reflects the real-world experiences of tech companies in hiring highly skilled foreign-born professionals and international graduate students from U.S. universities. In addition to citing the research, Bill Gates noted Microsoft's own internal findings that H-1Bs lead to increased complementary employment. Discussions with executives at eBay and other tech companies reveal the same experiences. It's common sense to job creators that hiring talented individuals leads to growth and innovation


Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123967013072415607.html

---

In related news, North is SOuth, East is West, Up is Down, and Black is WHite

[YOY]

1. WSJ. What do you expect.

Murdoch owned bullshit now.

[amborin]

74. do some research: truth is, these visas DO lead to more U.S. jobs

[OhioChick]

77. Yeah, U.S. IT workers working at McDonalds and Walmart.

Do your research.

[amborin]

79. don't you realize

that folks here on those visas have started tech corps that have hired 1000s....

google, intel, etc.......

[OhioChick]

83. I realize that I know dozens of unemployed US IT workers now.

Unemployed U.S. citizens should come first.

[amborin]

85. they're unemployed due to the recession; folks aren't buying tech products

[OhioChick]

86. Jobs are being shipped overseas at a phenomenal rate. n/t

[amborin]

93. links, please

[OhioChick]

95. Google is your friend. Otherwise, donate a few bucks to DU and do a search in LBN. n/t

[amborin]

103. so, no links?

[OhioChick]

107. $$$$ or Google it. I'm not your slave.

http://www.google.com/

That should get you started.

[ChromeFoundry]

109. Stop...

YOU were the one that posted this:

truth is, these visas DO lead to more U.S. jobs

YOU made the claim. YOU supplied no links.

If you are going to be asking for links.. backup your own bullshit first... else, move the fuck along and take your simple mind with you.

[amborin]

111. your motto is: when all else fails, use obscenities

[ChromeFoundry]

115. hey amborin...

I did not fail. You did; when you entered the thread with make-believe, so-called facts!

that would make your motto: Dodge any and all questions. Write fiction and claim it fact because no one will waste their time on proving you wrong. When they do prove you wrong... change to another question.

[rpannier]

124. Happy Now????

New York: International Business Machines Crop plans to lay off about 5,000 US employees, with many of the jobs being transferred to India, a media report said on Thursday.

The technology giant has been steadily building its work force in India and other locations while reducing the number of employees based in the US.

Foreign workers accounted for 71 per cent of Big Blue's nearly 4,00,000 employees at the start of the year, up from about 65 per cent in 2006, the Wall Street Journal said.

snip

But employees were quoted as saying in many cases that they have been training IBM workers from India to do work that will now be moved overseas.

link:
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=ibm+moves+jobs+to+india&page=1&qsrc=0&ab=0&u=http%3A%2F%2Fibnlive.in.com%2Fnews%2Fibm-plans-5000-lay-offs-moves-jobs-to-india%2F88710-7.html

[OhioChick]

132. Here's another:

JP Morgan told to explain India outsourcing plan

20 Mar 2009, 0201 hrs IST, ET Bureau

NEW DELHI: About 43 members of the US Congress have written to financial services firm JP Morgan Chase, asking it to explain its plans to increase outsourcing to India.

ET had earlier reported that JP Morgan plans to increase outsourcing to India by 25%. The financial services firm has been the recipient of $25-billion from the US government’s Troubled Assets Relief Program (TARP).

In a letter addressed to JP Morgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon, the Congress members asked: “How should these American workers, many of them your consumers, be expected to have hope for a better future when the very companies they contributed to through TARP outsource the jobs they desperately need?” A JP Morgan Chase spokesperson in India refused to comment on the matter.

There has been furore over outsourcing by American financial institutions that have received billions of government funds under its bailout package. For such firms, outsourcing, and offshoring to low-cost destinations such as India in particular, makes greater sense than ever before, as they look to cut costs.

“Most banks are looking to offshore more to India. With anti-outsourcing noises being made in the US, everyone is watching as to whether and how they will translate into action,” said sourcing advisory firm Everest principal Nikhil Rajpal.

Senators Chuck Grassley and Bernie Sanders recently introduced a legislation in the US Senate to prevent recipients of the government bailouts from hiring H1-B visa holders for one year. The Senate later cleared a watered-down version that allowed such companies to hire H1-B workers, but first prove they had made efforts to hire American workers.

More: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News-By-Industry/Jobs/JP-Morgan-told-to-explain-India-outsourcing-plan/articleshow/4289770.cms

List of the 43 members of Congress that wrote to JP Morgan Chase:

Rep. Mary Jo Kilroy Rep. Barney Frank

Rep. Loretta Sanchez Rep. Charles Wilson

Rep. Marcy Kaptur Rep. Betty Sutton

Rep. Tomas Perriello Rep. Joe Baca

Rep. Diane Watson Rep. Peter Welch

Rep. Charles Gonzalez Rep. Lynn Woolsey

Rep. Al Green Rep. Luis Gutierrez

Rep. Paul Hodes Rep. Tim Ryan

Rep. Timothy Bishop Rep. Paul Hodes

Rep. Stephen Lynch Rep. Eric Massa

Rep. Robert Brady Rep. Chellie Pingree

Rep. Bobby Rush Rep. John Oliver

Rep. Chaka Fattah Rep. Dennis Kucinich

Rep. Rubén Hinojosa Rep. James McGovern

Rep. Elijah Cummings Rep. Michael Michaud

Rep. Emanuel Cleaver Rep. Linda Sánchez

Rep. Christopher Carney Rep. Steven Rothman

Rep. Raúl Grijalva Rep. Phil Hare

Rep. Fortney Peter Stark Rep. Michael Capuano

Rep. Daniel Maffei Rep. Harry Teague

Rep. Paul Tonko Rep. John Dingell

[Deja Q]

150. I knew IBM was moving jobs, but I had no clue they were telling existing staff to train

their own replacements.

SICK. IMMORAL. DEPRAVED.

At this point, anyone who says offshoring helps add to US jobs needs to be upfront with reasons. Too many articles showing the precise opposite have been posted on DU. It's time for the pro-offshoring people to truly pony up... or they can STFU. Too many articles showing our point; we don't need to continue to do so. Our point is made. Loud and crystal clear. Time and time again.

It's their turn.

[rpannier]

118. And yet IBM and Microsoft need more of these Visa's to fill jobs

Nice try

[Skittles]

119. LIE LIE LIE

they're unemployed due to H1B and offshoring

[ChromeFoundry]

96. Can you please clarify this???

I don't see where "folks here on those visas have started tech corps", and then you include Google and Intel as your examples.

Since this is a thread about H-1B Visas.. your reference to "those visas" would have to be of the H-1B type.

Google co-founders:
Google began in January 1996 as a research project by Larry Page, a Ph.D. student at Stanford.
Larry Page: born March 26, 1973 in Lansing, Michigan, USA.
He was soon joined by Sergey Brin, a fellow Stanford Ph.D. student and close friend, whom he had first met in the summer of 1995.
Sergey Brin: born August 21, 1973, in Moscow, Soviet Union, immigrated to the United States at the age of six, naturalized citizen.

Intel founders:
Robert Norton Noyce (December 12, 1927 – June 3, 1990), Burlington, Iowa.
Gordon Earle Moore (born 3 January 1929), San Francisco, California.

Hey... wait a minute... Bill Gates is an illegal immigrant that jumped the border from Mexico?!?! Oh, so that is how rumors get started... pull shit out of your ass and see if it will stick to the wall.

[OhioChick]

98. Thanks, Chrome. n/t

[Elwood P Dowd]

121. Bullshit exposed. Thanks.

:toast:

[OhioChick]

113. Wrong....See Post #96. Get your facts straight. n/t

[OhioChick]

106. Links, please? n/t

[YOY]

145. Yeah...I work in IT.

Tons of postions that could be held by Americans.

My fucking International MBA ass this creates GOOD jobs for Americans.

[Deja Q]

147. Here's an idea, since your subject line was your sole message: Tell us HOW they lead to more US jobs

The fact your message was completely blank apart from a trite meme (thanks to years of contradictory evidence) is not going to help your viewpoint. Not one iota. Not one syllable. Not one bit.

Hell, even I, who dropped out of debate class in high school due to the inability to articulate orally at a sufficient pace required for acquiring a passable grade, know better than to put out a subject line with NOTHING following it.

Thank you.

[TechBear_Seattle]

2. It DOES lead to increased employment... of foreign workers

American citizens, however, keep getting screwed, and screwed hard.

[amborin]

75. wrong; foreigners have started huge tech corps and hired 10000s

Intel, Google, to name just two

[ChromeFoundry]

122. Post #96.. please respond to your claim.

you are wrong. both companies were founded by US citizens.

[rpannier]

127. Google was founded by

Larry Page an American and Sergey Brin who came to America when he was from Russia. They are NOT products of the H-1B Visa system

[YOY]

146. You clearly don't know the histories or founders of those comepanies.

n/t

[angstlessk]

3. with H-1B visas they get a two fer...sure they increase employment just not of Americans

but of foreigners!! gee how hard is that to figer out?

[Hello_Kitty]

5. Yeah, it's 'more employment at U.S. companies'. eom

[amborin]

76. try reading some U.S. history...odds are your ancestors were "foreigners"

[musette_sf]

4. Bull Dookie

[sharp_stick]

6. I really wish they would split

the tech companies off of the H1B Visa. The tech companies abuse this system more than anything. The H1B VISA was created to fill positions that could not be filled by Americans and yet tech companies use it to bring in dime a dozen network admins.

If the Government would just start looking into the positions being filled it should be easy enough to figure out which ones qualify. Hell, they already do it if/when people move from H1 to Green Card by forcing companies to prove to the Department of Labor that Americans aren't ready to fill the position. They could make the process to hire an H1B candidate a little less palatable for the average tech company by making them provide the resumes of everyone to the DOL before offering the VISA.

[rurallib]

7. Murdoch's WSJ did their own research? Color me skeptical

Oddly they got the result they were looking for.

[Javaman]

8. LOL they try so hard! LOL

It's like watching chimpanzees trying to figure out long division.

[ixion]

9. Bullpuckey...

'nuff said.

[ardvark]

10. These articles are a good thing

because when the economy wasnt so bad, too many people believed it, particularly if it wasnt THEIR job being hit

Now, people (correctly) perceive ANY job being lost as a threat


Hopefully this garbage will finally be exposed for the beef manure that it really is

[SurfingScientist]

11. Uh, let's be a little less agitated here.

Fine to be upset about the cases where H1Bs are abused.

The actual point is true though - attracting the best talent in the world to the US has been a tremendous success for the last century.

It has kept the US at the top of technology and innovation - the nuclear age, the space age, the digital age, now biotechnology, etc. This tech superiority has created many of the industries that made America wealthy, and has created the _qualified_ jobs that did not have to compete with sweatshop labor prices in less developed countries.


Edit: Of course, need to enforce regulations to prohibit visa abuse. But it would not be wise to abandon the program for good.

[ardvark]

12. the 'O' visa does that

the H-1b just gluts the job market

Microsoft's failed Vista and stock chart is a testiment to H-1b

[SurfingScientist]

16. In practice, 'O' seems to be given to other cases.

You may be right about the basic intent, but in practice it is handled differently by the DHS/INS.

All my foreign colleagues (astrophysics researchers) who are on non-permanent contracts are either on J-1 (short-term academic exchange) or H-1B (longer term, up to 6 yrs). These are all typical 'individuals with special qualifications' that are hired or receive grants/fellowships for very specific know-how.

[blue97keet]

29. No such thing as "very specific know-how" or unique

one of a kind skills by the hundreds of thousands, as Bill Gates expects.

[ardvark]

32. that's the whole thing

nobody's ever been against a limited number of very brilliant people

but a straw man has been put up that anyone who's against a FLOOD of mediocre people is against the above point

[Hello_Kitty]

53. No, they are not the norm.

Most H1B visa holders are doing things like IT support. They are not astrophysics researchers.

[SurfingScientist]

19. Also, the actual point of the article seems to be...

... the principal benefit of hiring foreigners, regardless what visa they come with.

[ardvark]

22. the principal 'benefit' of hiring foreigners

is skilled American citizens training their foreign replacement and being fired

the most brutal form of job discrimination, being fired in the USA for being an American

[amborin]

82. that happens pretty rarely, you're grossly exaggerating

[OhioChick]

138. These people lost high-tech jobs to low-wage countries

Just a sampling:


These people lost high-tech jobs to low-wage countries. Try telling them that offshoring is a good thing in the long run.

Kyle Bonds
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania

Bonds, 44, was a contractor at IBM when he heard rumors of work moving abroad. Figuring his job could be next, he took a lower-paying but more secure post elsewhere.

"If I had stayed, you would be talking to a truck driver with a waitress wife."

Myra Bronstein
Mercer Island, Washington

Bronstein, a software engineer, says she had to train her offshore replacements herself or risk losing her severance package and unemployment eligibility.

"My industry just crashed and burned. I think it's shortsighted to try and get another job in this field."

Charles Buhrmann
Greenville, Texas

Before his position went to Canada, Buhrmann was a contractor for an insurance company's policy management system. Now he designs Web sites part-time for $8.50 an hour.

"If they're going to offer a job overseas for half the pay, why not offer it to the person here?"

Melissa Charters
Los Angeles, California

Charters had 15 years of experience in IT when her job as a system security administrator was outsourced, then offshored to India. She's becoming a home-economics teacher.

"How can our country's information stay secure when it's all being done over there?"

Lidia Estes
Bedford, Texas

Estes, 55, learned her job managing programmers with Computer Horizons was going to be offshored in late 2002. Now, the woman who has worked in IT since she was 19 sells Mary Kay Cosmetics.

"I don't know what to do. This has been my whole life."

Linda Evans
Matthews, North Carolina

In 2002, Evans's programmer husband was laid off and forced to train his Indian replacements. A new employer threatened to fire him after he was interviewed by a local paper.

"We never feel safe. When he gets called in for review, he thinks, 'This is it--it's all over today.' "

James Fusco
East Brunswick, New Jersey

Since IBM sent his work to Canada, Fusco has a new job as a systems analyst--at less pay. He has joined a lawsuit seeking retraining for software workers.

"The most important thing I've lost is an intangible. It's the loss of a secure feeling, because I really lost a career."

Michael Gist
Fort Worth, Texas

For Gist, 41, a software engineer who was replaced by a temporary worker who later went back to India, losing his job meant more than losing income. Although he now runs a home-furnishings store, he's lost his passion.

"I just love writing code. I'm a computer geek inside and out."

Corey Goode
Dallas, Texas

Goode, 34, had a contract job with Microsoft to support its call centers. It included secretly setting up user accounts for workers in Bangalore who'd replace domestic employees. Just before his first child was born, he says his own job moved to India.

"Globalization is here to stay, but we need to ease the growing pains."

Much, much more: http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/81/offshore_profiles.html

Look up "Azlady" here.....trained 4... H-1B replacements at four different companies.
"Gross exageration" my ass.

[high density]

35. So where do we go now?

Right now our innovation train is sinking into quicksand. Smart people here are being laid off so that companies can hire throngs of offshore workers because it's cheaper. Cheaper. cheaper. cheaper. That's what our country has turned into, a race for the cheap. It's clear we can't sustain it because it's doing nothing but to shrink the middle class while rocketing the upper class to new heights.

[amborin]

81. totally agree: sunday ny times had article showing how

we're going against our own national interest by refusing these visas

intel, google, etc....were started by folks here on those visas or student visas

they hired 1000s......

we should be wanting the best and brightest

[OhioChick]

141. Wrong...See post #96

As for your "best and brightest" comment:

Study Says H-1Bs Aren't the Best or Brightest

One of the main arguments touted by groups interested in seeing an increase in the cap on H-1B temporary worker visas is that those who wish to work here on these visas are some of the world's best recruits, and their addition to the work force would foster U.S. innovation and global competitiveness.

Opponents to the program argue that H-1B visas do none of the above, but are instead used by large, greedy tech companies to undercut the wages of U.S. workers, effectively pushing them out of jobs. Opponents cite fines levied against system abusers as evidence.

In an article published this month by the Center for Immigration Studies, a think tank favoring fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted, Norman Matloff, a professor at the University of California, Davis, who has been a longtime critic of the H-1B program, took a look at the median salaries of H-1B visa workers in the U.S. and found that although these workers weren't being underpaid, the median salary for a tech worker on an H-1B is simply the prevailing wage for their job and no more.

From there, Matloff drew the conclusion that if these workers were truly the best and brightest and would be able to foster U.S. innovation, they'd be able to command salaries higher than the prevailing wage.

"Most foreign tech workers, particularly those from Asia, are in fact of only average talent. Moreover, they are hired for low-level jobs of limited responsibility, not positions that generate innovation. This is true both overall and in the key tech occupations, and most importantly, in the firms most stridently demanding that Congress admit more foreign workers," Matloff writes.

Stuart Anderson, executive director for the National Foundation for American Policy, which is in favor of boosting the H-1B cap, countered to the Wall Street Journal Business Technology blog that the just-average salaries of most H-1B workers could be better accounted for by their age.

According to the Department of Homeland Security, in 2005, 41 percent of H-1B holders were younger than 30 years old, and 32 percent were under 35. In previous years, the proportion of H-1B workers under the age of 35 was more than three-quarters.

More: http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/h1b_foreign_workers/study_says_h1bs_arent_the_best_or_brightest.html

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. We don't "attract" the talent, we educate that foreign talent then turn 'em into h1bs.

Last week, there was a H1B sympathy story about one of the main engineers for Google, about how his wife was having a hard time getting a visa. What they failed to point out was that this guy came to the US at age 14 and has been here ever since. The engineering education he posesses thanks of the US could have just as easily been given to a US citizen.

[amborin]

100. hurrah for that guy, did you actually read the article?

he cleaned toilets to pay his way through Harvard

any U.S. citizen could have gone that route....but many didn't

the foreign guy in the article was dirt poor

the American guy in the article who opposed the HIB visas, the anti-immigrant guy, was mad

he had gone to cal state and said his degree was just as good as harvard

if it was just as good, then how come he didn't design some tech wizard program while an undergrad?

the Indian guy had designed part of Facebook, while not cleaning toilets to pay his way through

[brentspeak]

133. What does any of that have to do with many thousands of H-1B's

taking ordinary tech jobs which would otherwise be done by American citizens?

[lumberjack_jeff]

139. The argument goes:

We don't turn out enough engineers so we have to do h1bs. The argument kind of falls apart when the h1bs got their engineering training here.

We don't turn out enough engineers because our colleges educate foreigners disproportionately.

[Deja Q]

148. Hurrah for everyone else but piss on the hand that feeds.

If Somali pirates get sympathy, how about the people who are tired of tax money going to countries whose people don't entirely like us? Or jobs? Or much less anything else?

Sorry for using a meme, this is lunch hour, and I've posted on most of these issues before (though I will start citing links toward foreign aid and other relevant issues; even saving a file I can cut and paste from if it gets to such a pedantic level.)

And is this the same Facebook that stores caches of peoples' information, that anyone with sufficient or forged credentials can sift through? Like employers? Even though what's on a website, if it doesn't pertain to the company, is 100% irrelevant? (Before FB's Terms of Service changed, but even then people who knew their past are now wary.)

[LiberalEsto]

13. Increased employment - at McDonalds

Lots of American tech workers have ended up at low-wage jobs because of this H1B visa scheme.

[SurfingScientist]

25. Tech worker is not equal to tech worker...

... there is always a difference between a job title / on-paper qualification and the actual ability of the person.

A good engineer/programmer/researcher will be much sought after on the job market regardless where she/he comes from, provided she/he is willing/able to move.

I agree it's questionable to not hire domestic workers, but what if your company needs specific abilities / a team leader / someone talented to get the job done, and your just cannot find that guy next door? I know from much own experience that noting beats a small team of top notch people - the "A-team"- to initiate an innovative project with huge subsequent benefits (read: jobs). You don't have the A team, a challenging project often fails.

In the tech / science world, the globality of talent has become a _cultural_ feature: good people travel around the world, whether we like it or not. If the US adopt protectionist policies, we are at a huge disadvantage.

I am _not_ supporting visa abuse (e.g. to undercut US wages) here. My point is that things are not that easy, and that H1Bs (or any talent-attracting program) are pretty much crucial.
This is based on much personal experience, not on any ideology.

[ardvark]

27. 'that noting beats a small team of top notch people '

that's absolutely true

problem is, too many toop notch Americans are being replaced by very mediocre foreigners

the quality of the average tech worker is WAY DOWN from what it was in the early 1990s, pre-H-1b

Failed MS-Vista is living proof of it

[SurfingScientist]

33. Uh, have no inside-insight into the quality ...

... of the tech workforce, so I cannot comment on that. Re. VISTA, I bet Mac OS X also had lots of foreigners among its developers and works great - VISTA may just be crap because of MS's eff-the-customer politics...

[ardvark]

34. but you ARE commenting on it

and you just admitted you dont know what you are talking about

THAT, we can agree on

[SurfingScientist]

36. Uh, ardvark, I find that tone a tad abrasive...

... I specifically said I was not commenting on your _general_ point of the decline of the tech workforce quality.

I only commented about your specific example of VISTA which I thought was not a good proof of your point, leaving your general point unquestioned.

[ardvark]

37. supporting replacement of American citizens in a depression is also abrasive

that's where i'm coming from

[SurfingScientist]

41. Ardvark, that's not what i am supporting.

If you are personally affected - you seem pretty emotional - , be assured that I did not want to hurt your feelings.

See my other posts on this thread. I only try to bring some facts into this discussion that we cannot simply ignore.

One of these facts is that science and technology, and the relevant companies, have turned global a long time ago. For non-profit science, this is a great egalitarian principle to share knowledge among all mankind. In the case of the tech industry, this has economic benefits but leads to many of the problems for the employees that we discuss here. Governments cannot simply be complete protectionists, but also have to protect their workforce against low-wage sellout.

I fully agree that any visa abuse to undercut american workers' wages or rights must be stopped and those responsible should be prosecuted.

Nevertheless, a lively _exchange_ in qualified workforce is very important for the process of innovation.

[ChromeFoundry]

67. Mac OS X developers....

Well, considering that OS X is based off of the 1993 implementation of the OPENSTEP operating system, formerly the NeXTSTEP operating system of 1986. Both of these operating systems borrow heavily off of the BSD Unix code base (University of California, Berkeley, 1977). FreeBSD and NetBSD Unix-like libraries are a major component of the OS X core and most other Linux and Unix-like distros.

Oh, and BSD UNIX was derived from AT&T UNIX... you know... the 'First' UNIX from 1969, developed from Bell Labs by Ken Thompson, Dennis Ritchie, Douglas McIlroy, and Joe Ossanna.

So I guess some of the best and brightest minds were from the good old USA, working at an American company... and their code and ideas are still being used 40 years later, all around the world! The other shoe to your argument could be that when an American is employed, and the US Economy is strong... lots of other can benefit from that structure as well, including foreigners.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

144. Apple has lots and lots of furriners working there

They just happen to be mostly European and for whatever reason that doesn't seem to bother people as much, and the pay at Apple sucks for everybody.

[LiberalEsto]

62. My husband has been in the IT field for over 25 years

and he has seen (many, many times) highly qualified American tech workers replaced by lower-paid foreign tech workers who are not as qualified. The hiring companies do phony searches in the US, then claim they can't find qualified Americans and hire foreigners. What they secretly mean by "qualified" is "people who aren't paying American mortgages, raising kids, saving for their college educations and trying to save for retirement."

In addition to everything else, many, if not all of these foreign workers received free college educations, so they aren't struggling to pay off massive student loan debt like American tech workers are doing. This means the foreign workers are willing to accept far lower wages.

Furthermore, the hiring companies fudge the job descriptions, so the H1B hires aren't doing exactly the same jobs as the Americans they displaced, in order to get around the existing H1B regulations on equivalent pay.

I've said it before, many times. ANY American company that accepts any kind of government subsidy, whether it be tax breaks, research grants, property tax reductions by local governments, or government contracts, should be banned from hiring foreign workers or face losing those subsidies.

[Deja Q]

70. Well said, and agreed 100%. Because that is what has been happening.

[treestar]

14. One foreigner employed in the US can lead to creation

of other jobs that would otherwise not have been created.

The deportation of one alien does not mean the opening of a job to one U.S. citizen. In fact, it could lead to loss of job of a U.S. citizen.

Economics 101 should be required in high schools.

[ardvark]

15. 'Economics 101 should be required in high schools.'

too bad you didnt take it

when an American citizen trains their H-1b replacement, I dont think any jobs are being created for Americans

[OhioChick]

18. Ummmm....You didn't get the memo...

Immigration lawyers aren't required to take it.

[Larkspur]

20. One foreigner cost me my job

He's an H-1B visa holder from India and he's no Einstein. I don't blame him directly. I blame corporate greed and the politicians who support that greed for losing my job.

So practically speaking, your Econ 101 theory has already been proven false. And no, I still can't find employment. I've been out of work since November 2008.

[Hello_Kitty]

55. Same here. I finally got a job 2 weeks ago after nearly a year unemployed.

It pays about half what I used to make.

[Alcibiades]

24. Economics is often ideology

disguised as a legitimate academic discipline. The same folks who put the economy into the toilet espoused economic doctrine that is clearly ideological and self-serving rather than concerned with maximizing expected utility or any such neutral-sounding concern.

[ardvark]

31. pretty much sums up the last 17 years - nt

[AngryOldDem]

30. How so?

When people are training their foreign replacements, and have no option other than to do so (or else be terminated earlier than planned), and when said training is complete they are shown the door, how does that lead to job creation? Often, those who are so replaced have trouble finding work, or have to take jobs at great financial loss. Many are at that stage of life or career where employers are wary to even consider their resumes, so they are even further behind the eight-ball.

This is just a source of cheap labor for American business, consequences be damned. Period. Sorry, but I cannot defend the indefensible.

Odd construction of economics theory you have there, though. Orwell would probably appreciate it.

[Elwood P Dowd]

38. It's the exact opposite of what you say.

A foreign H-1B worker is imported to replace the American worker. The American was making $80,000 a year with health care and retirement benefits. The foreign worker is paid $30,000 a year without benefits. You now have $50,000 less money in the hands of a middle class American worker who would put that money back into the economy and stimulate job growth. The $50,000 ends up in the pocket of a wealthy CEO who gambles with it on Wall Street and creates zero jobs. You also have an unemployed American worker adding to deficit spending with unemployment benefits, food stamps, and other social services. It's a double whammy that's destroying our economy, and it will eventually effect you one way or another - higher taxes, increased crime, falling value of the dollar, etc, ect..

[Romulox]

46. Right. Lunch-truck operator, cleaning lady, ad nauseaum.

"Economics 101 should be required in high schools."

That's rich coming from an economic flat-earther who ignores any data contrary to the Chamber of Commerce's position, such as yourself. :hi:

[brentspeak]

49. So says a lawyer who apparently specializes in outsourcing work for corporations

[lumberjack_jeff]

140. He oughta come with a disclaimer. n/t

[ChromeFoundry]

72. If that is your logic...

shouldn't India be aggressively trying to recruit US workers from our universities and companies???


Oh that's right, you have a slant against the US workers because your profits are based on billable hours.
Never mind - words on deaf ears.

[OhioChick]

17. "H-1B Visas Lead to More U.S. Jobs "

:rofl:

yeah....and I have a bridge to sell you...

[Mari333]

21. and I am the Queen of England . nt

[ardvark]

23. White House says U.S. needs H-1B visas to avoid 'competitive disadvantage'

Obama basicly agrees with this - thats 'Change' you can keep


April 3, 2009 (Computerworld) President Barack Obama has so far reversed a number of actions taken by President George W. Bush -- on embryonic stem cell research, species protection and medical research -- but his administration has so far shown no interest in reversing a Bush-approved rule that has drawn the ire of H-1B opponents.

The Bush administration's move to increase the amount of time foreign nationals with engineering, science and other technical degrees can work in the U.S. on student visas from one year to 29 months prompted a lawsuit that was filed last May by the Programmers Guild, the American Engineering Association Inc., Bright Future Jobs, and a number of technology workers.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9131045

[ChromeFoundry]

69. Funny how...

when he spoke during his campaign speeches, this was not the same message he was giving.

All the talk was, "close the tax loop-holes," and "bring the jobs back home."

I'm not trying to start a 'bash-Obama' thread...for the most part I am pleased with his progress. I just think people need to remember what was the hope for CHANGE he promised, prior to his election into office, and hold him accountable when he deviates from said plan.

[Alcibiades]

26. What bullshit

"It's common sense to job creators that hiring talented individuals leads to growth and innovation."

But it's wrong to assume that foreign folks are more talented. What these folks want is the creation of a class of helots they can exploit to drive down wages so that they can give more to top executives.

[acmavm]

28. I am never disappointed by the WSJ. They are convinced we

are all idiots and will believe anything they print.

They're almost a satire of themselves.

[juno jones]

39. Increased complimentary employment...

...in jobs like fry cooking.

[ChromeFoundry]

40. Yeah, my ass. n/t

[mainer]

42. I assume you've all read the NYT article on this subject?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/business/12immig.html?_r=1&em

It was in Sunday's paper. According to their numbers, as a group, foreign engineers/scientists actually out-earn American-born engineers/scientists in this country. So it appears that US companies aren't hiring foreign engineers just because they're cheaper.

Where foreign workers do seem to displace American workers is in lower-paying jobs.

[redqueen]

43. "as a group"... nice way to fudge the numbers.

They really shouldn't be allowed to call crap like this 'news'.

It's disinformation.

[mainer]

54. No, they shouldn't be allowed to print "crap" you don't like

It's just a link to the New York Times. I didn't realize that censorship was the answer to everything.

[Hello_Kitty]

58. Who, pray tell, is censoring you?

Furthermore, the use of the phrase "as a group" is weasel words. If you and I were having coffee and Bill Gates sat down at the table with us, our income "as a group" would go up exponentially. But you and I would not be making more money.

[mainer]

64. Numbers, I've got numbers: (from the "crap" NYT and census bureau):

Median Salaries of full-time U.S. workers, American-born vs. foreign-born:

All Categories, including unskilled labor: U.S. born: $36,361 Foreign born: $30,357

Computer analysts: U.S. born: $57,679 Foreign born: $68,810

Scientists: U.S. born: 62,738 Foreign born: 65,774

Engineers: U.S. born: $76,905 Foreign born: 80,952


Source: Census "Higher Education, Innovation and Growth", 2007.

The numbers are the numbers. You can argue about my use of the phrase "as a group." I was simply trying to describe the content of the chart that was printed in the Sunday NYT.
These aren't opinions, just survey data.

[mainer]

66. P.s.: who has the highest median US salaries by birth country? Answer below

Again, according to the NYT data, some surprising numbers. Immigrants from India and Canada make a higher median income in the U.S. than do American-born employees.

Median U.S. salaries by country of birth. Salary rankings:

#1. India (>$80,000)
#2 Canada (> $80,000)
#3: U.S. (around $60,000)
#4.: China (just under $60,000)
#5: Other foreign nations (under $40,000)

So immigrants from India and Canada make MORE in the U.S. than American-born workers.

[OhioChick]

44. H-1B visa holders are paid less than US counterparts

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=cda81c51-7247-4c2a-8e36-2414c5f9686c

Foreign news source, no less.

[ardvark]

45. this is why I say NO BAILOUTS for newspapers

let corporate America support their own freaking american worker hating propaganda

[mainer]

65. Yeah, let'em all go under. Bloggers are SO much more reliable as sources.

Wow. I'm amazed how the messengers (i.e. reporters) are always the first ones shot.

[Hello_Kitty]

56. Um. IT is now one of those 'lower paying' jobs.

As is construction work. Those jobs used to pay well and the construction trades used to be mostly unionized.

[Hello_Kitty]

59. And notice it's engineers and scientists.

Who are NOT the majority of H1B visa holders.

[DatManFromNawlins]

143. Bullshit

That isn't what my experience as a headhunter tells me. Edison, NJ has an entire freaking industry predicated upon the idea of shopping out cheap talent, throwing them into IT sweatshops, and cramming 8 people into 1 bedroom apartments. We had one instance where we brought in a woman through a subcontracting firm without knowledge of their practices. Then one day, she can't get to work, her car has broken down, so a manager at Mary-Kay goes to pick her up, and finds there are 13 people living in one apartment "paid for" by her firm, and they had to PAY the company to live there. She was immediately fired, and we were no longer allowed to do business with Mary-Kay.

These were for positions that normally pay in excess of $75 an hour to an American born IT worker that were going at $25 an hour to an Indian or African born visa holder. SAP, Oracle, etc. are in bed big time with India, training their people for a very small fraction of what they charge American companies to go through the same training so they can get cheap labor on their implementation projects. Yes, they come over, and yes, they have technical skills, but the only fucking reason these people have the skills "that Americans don't" is because US companies won't pay to train their American technical employees. There's no tether to keep them there after they get the training, and the companies don't want to fit technical training in their budgets anyway, because they see IT as a pure cost center issue.

I've seen entire technical teams fired after the initial fit-gap on projects and replaced by cheap Indian labor for the actual implementation.

I'll take my actual experience over fluff pieces designed to defuse tension any day.

[brentspeak]

47. WSJ article bookmarked in my system under "Economic Propaganda"

[brentspeak]

48. On second look, this isn't a news article; it's a LTTE (n/t)

[OhioChick]

50. Yep.

Stuart Anderson
Executive Director
National Foundation for American Policy

http://www.nfap.com/

Claims to be non-partisan, yet has quotes from Ronnie Raygun on it's site. :eyes:

[Hello_Kitty]

57. It's regurgitated Tom Friedman Flat Earth horseshit. eom

[anonymous171]

51. Wow. A blatant display of class bias if ever saw one.

Fuck the corporate media.

[closeupready]

52. Also leads to wider income disparity between top and bottom.

But who cares, as long as you are at the top. :sarcasm:

[Matariki]

60. "Complementary employment" -- at Starbucks

Why, because college is unaffordable for many people in the US. We're carving out a path to becoming a third world country, with a small wealthy class and a vast impoverished and uneducated class - a little in between.

We need to work to get our priorities straight. Education and universal health care.

[anonymous171]

63. Yep. America is not going to become some fascist state.

Instead, it looks like we are going to become a banana republic. Our entire economy has been geared towards servicing the rich and powerful. Instead of producing goods we are only providing services.

[pinto]

61. As noted above, this is a letter from Stuart Anderson, former director of the Cato Institute. n/t

[Deja Q]

68. I'll take "Empty propaganda pieces written by drunk dope-heads for $100, Alex"

[OhioChick]

71. .......

:rofl:

[amborin]

73. it's sick and stupid and jingoistic to oppose these visas

the ny times had a big article in sunday's papers.....

some of the biggest Silicon Valley corporations, which have hired 1000s of U.S. workers, were founded by people here on those visas

google, intel, to name just two biggies

it is idiotic, stupid, sad, to keep out the world's best and brightest

we are going against our own national interest and destroying our economy, etc...

[OhioChick]

80. Tech Layoffs Surge to 300,000

Tech Layoffs Surge to 300,000

February 17, 2009

Layoffs in the tech sector are accelerating. It took exactly three weeks for tech layoffs to surge to 300,000, according to our Layoff Tracker. Since late January, when the tracker hit 200,000 layoffs, another 100,000 job eliminations have been announced or completed. In contrast, it took five weeks for layoffs in the tech industry to hit the 200,000 mark, and four months for layoffs to hit 100,000 last December. The total number of layoffs since we began tracking since the financial crisis began in late August is 300,093.

The past few weeks have particularly brutal for the technology space, with substantial layoffs announced by Pioneer (10,000), Cisco (3,000), Panasonic (15,000), NEC (20,000), Electronic Arts (1100) and AOL (700). Even Bloomberg and The Wall Street Journal, who both managed to avoid layoffs in the past few months, were forced to make cuts to their workforces. And Google, who was immune to layoffs until late January, continued giving pink-slips in the past three weeks with the company’s exit from radio. Sadly, a few start-ups weren’t able to weather the storm, with eBaum’s World cutting all of its workforce.

More: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/02/17/tech-layoffs-surge-to-300000/


Time to take care of our own unemployed citizens first, just as other countries are doing.

[amborin]

84. that's due principally to the economic downturn, not to hiring replacement workers

don't you read?

folks aren't purchasing electronics and tech products

the market for these items had disappeared

that's why they're having layoffs

[OhioChick]

87. Maybe you should do some reading....

Jobs are being outsourced to foreign countries at an alarming rate. Check all of the financial institutions, credit card companies, auto makers, health care industry, and the list goes on and on....

[amborin]

94. most you listed are low wage, service sector jobs

[OhioChick]

99. They never used to be........ companies are looking for the cheapest! n/t

[amborin]

102. don't blame that on immigrants! weren't your ancestors from another country?

or are you a first nation descendant

[OhioChick]

105. .....

:rofl:

[Elwood P Dowd]

136. When all else fails, the race to the bottom crowd always bring up the immigrant card.

These immigrants will eventually go right back where they came from because our economy has been totally wrecked by the fucking policies you support. Just give it time.

[OhioChick]

137. You're absolutely right, Elwood. n/t

[ChromeFoundry]

142. No one blamed the immigrants...

this is a policy and economic discussion...

try to stay on the same path as everyone else... if you get lost, look for the red-umbrella, it's at post number zero.

[ChromeFoundry]

88. much of this work has been moved offshore....

See: J.P. Morgan Chase, AIG, IBM, Microsoft, etc...

Are you saying that offshoring jobs is NOT hiring replacement workers?

If that is the case, may I ask if you are delusional or adjusting to some new medication?!?!

[amborin]

97. stick to the issue

offshoring is not what this thread is about

[ChromeFoundry]

104. related to the issue...

jobs move offshore when they can no longer hire from a low wage income pool of foreign workers, aka. H-1B visa program.

Get your facts straight... I haven't seen you post anything but fabricated statements without any external source to back up your claims.

[amborin]

112. offshoring is a different issue; keep the issues separate

[ChromeFoundry]

116. I say they are related...

if they are not... prove it. links???


See, I can play your ridiculous game just as well as you.

[Elwood P Dowd]

129. Of course they are related.

It's all about driving down wages and increasing profits for the assholes up top. The wealthy are winning the war, and we are losing. Or, as some rich asshole said, "The war on poverty is over. We won, and the poor lost. Next up - - the middle class."

[rpannier]

131. That's kind of funny coming from someone who has been posting erroeous info to support

their position

[Deja Q]

149. Or to support them either! (link)

We have many very damn bright people in this country losing their jobs. They train their replacements. People who call the 'replacements' get lower quality service.

Something is amiss.

It's NOT about hiring good people.

It's not about making good, solid products.

It's about cutting corners and inflating phony profits.

Or hadn't you noticed things over the last 5~8 years?


http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/tech-manager/?p=1099

READ THAT ARTICLE. ALL OF IT.


We need to be supporting the US economy. That will stabilize the US ***AND*** the global economy. No more FREE HANDOUTS.

[1]

78. h1-b workers only do the jobs americans don't want to do...

exactly like the "undocumented workers" that come into the country, right?

i don't see the difference, or the problem here...

[ChromeFoundry]

89. Assuming you forgot the ....

:sarcasm:

because no one could actually be brain dead and type at the same time!
But then again...not too much surprises me on this board anymore.

:toast:

[1]

114. no, i didn't...

if some foreign dude takes a construction job from an american by sneaking across the border, i'm told to not complain about that as it is just some poor dude trying to better his lot in life. yay! foreign dude.

but...

if some foreign dude takes an IT job from an american by a h1-b visa, i should be all upset. really?

bullshit.

if it effects your livelihood it is an outrage!!! if it effects someone else, it is a beautiful thing.

this thread is amazing...

[OhioChick]

117. As someone in the tech field, I see both scenarios as upsetting. n/t

[ChromeFoundry]

120. no, they are both equally an outrage.

If anyone illegally takes a citizen's job, regardless of the trade, it is wrong. I hold no bias for white, blue or no-collar jobs and their importance.

[1]

123. then i apologize to everyone on this thread. at least you two...

[OhioChick]

126. No biggie....

:pals:

[ChromeFoundry]

135. No apology needed...

I know a lot of frustrated workers that feel this way because they have been displaced from the wrath of NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO and the countless other bad decisions this country has sold-out too... A lot of this nation stood by and watched it happen, awaiting the lower priced vehicles and technology. Just don't think that everyone in a tech job is against you, nor do they all attempt to place themselves "above" you on the food chain. You ever need support on a labor thread...PM me- I've got your back.

:toast:

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. News flash from the WSJ.... fucking promotes virginity!

Everyone who buys this bullshit is a complete fucking tool.

[OhioChick]

91. .......

:rofl:

[Elwood P Dowd]

108. Sticking a lit firecracker up your ass promotes a healthy anus.

Did you see the pic of the guy who did that? It was making the rounds of the internets a few weeks ago.

What gets me OC is the total brainwashing of some DU members when it comes to free trade, outsourcing, and importing immigrant workers. They simply refuse to admit why this is taking place and who is really benefitting. They are totally clueless.

[OhioChick]

110. Actually, no I did not....LOL

I couldn't agree with you more on your statements. Clueless is putting it mildly.....more like brain washed. :eyes:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

101. When the visas are not being abused that is true

Our H-1B's are all in fairly senior positions and have support staff who wouldn't be here otherwise because the H-1B held positions wouldn't exist otherwise.

It is also important to keep in mind not all H-1B's are in IT, all of ours are in international legal, finance and regulatory roles and our firm has far more Americans working for us overseas than we have foreigners working in the United States. I am one of them and working in Canada.

Ironically, when we advertise for these positions virtually everyone we hear from is either a professor looking for jobs for their graduating international students or immigrants who have been in the US for decades and can't exactly be parachuted back into their old profession or in one case a Chinese exile sentenced to prison in absentia and wasn't up for frequent trips home. It also turns out there aren't many unemployed steel workers who know the french corporate tax code. (I know, I was suprised too.)

[BlooInBloo]

125. NO!!!! HATE DEM DAM FURRINERS!!! HATE THEM HATE THEM!!!!

:rofl:

[OhioChick]

128. What would a thread be without the "resident ass?"

:rofl:

[BlooInBloo]

130. Have fun at McD's and Walmart.

:hi:

[OhioChick]

134. You're a joke.

:rofl: