WE THE PEOPLE must share the blame for the horrors done in our name.

[rhett o rick]

The recently released memos regarding torture by the George W. Bush Dept of Justice in only another piece of evidence of just how horribly WE THE PEOPLE have allowed our government to behave in our name.

Did Congress know how bad this was? Of course they knew. As our representatives they should have known. They knew the individuals of Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, Rumsfeld, Bybee, Yoo, and others. These are not honorable men. But it appears Congress choose to overlook, rationalize, or ignore these atrocities. This makes Congress complicit in this horror. Is that why they are continuing to ignore this?

WE THE PEOPLE also must share some blame. It is our country and we are responsible thru our elected representatives for the behavior or our government.

It is time to make this right. It is time to explain to Congress that they represent us and we want actions taken to investigate and prosecute individuals at ALL levels that participated in torture in our name.

[H2O Man]

1. With freedom

comes responsibility.

Nominated.

[Solly Mack]

2. K&R

[polysciguy420]

3. I argee

with your position. But people need 2 realize that these people aren't going 2 be prosecuted. The biggest lesson we can take from this situation is how we should behave from this point forward. Of course these guys deserve justice, but calling for it is like beating a dead horse. The time now is to move forward and to prevent future crimes against humanity.

[babylonsister]

4. Who says they won't be prosecuted? I think there's a good chance

that they will once more people actually read those memos. Moving forward without addressing what was done in our names isn't an option, nor should it be.

[Solly Mack]

8. "prevent future crimes against humanity" How? By making more laws?

How many times does torture have to be banned before it means something?

Just more laws that won't be followed because there are no consequences for breaking them?

Or, is it a case of - you can get away with it now but next time there will be consequences?

Are we going to pretend people guilty of torture just didn't know torture was illegal? Just pretend they didn't know any better? That, somehow, the future will be different if we just all move forward to a bright sunshiny day and agree to pretend?

Just relegate the entire 8 years of criminal activities into the past and then lie to ourselves and say it was all an anomaly that could never happen again?

Just join hands and declare "Never Again!"? (Like that really means anything)

[H2O Man]

10. There are times

when being familiar with a DUers' posts makes responding unnecessary. However, I am glad that you point out how silly it is to say that if a group of people violate a law, the best response is to make a carbon copy of the law, to prevent future law-breaking. Hard to take that type of thinking seriously.

[Solly Mack]

13. I was going to ignore it. (and I did for several minutes)

But that thinking just flies all over me :)

[rhett o rick]

12. No new laws needed. Enforce the existing laws. nm

[Solly Mack]

15. Exactly!

[rhett o rick]

11. That makes no sense at all. So someone robs a 7-11 and you say it's all in the past

We need to figure out how to prevent it in the future?
If we prosecute, especially the rank and file, it will discourage the future rank and file from following orders they know are illegal.
Forgive and forget if you want, I want prosecutions.

[Mira]

26. Calling for investigation (almost no longer necessary, and Obama is helping by

releasing the tapes...wonder why HMMMM???) and prosecution is not like beating a dead horse, that is a defeatist retreating position without taking responsibility even for your own rage.
That call is our absolute responsibility to our own selves, the past and the future.
The biggest lesson we need to take forward from this point is that whenever we don't properly call out inhumanity to man, stop and label all crimes of war, we are standing still or retreating. History has taught us in innumerable ways that we are bound to repeat what we don't properly finish.
And then there is the "small" issue of evolution.
Do we really want to be the upright one, looking just like Bush with his simian face, carrying a club where the unifying flag of world peace should be?
The thought of not putting blame where it belongs, fighting back now that we can, standing up for our run-over selves as crimes were committed in our names is an unbearable thought to me.

The only way I can say I lean back, squint my eyes and gnash my teeth, and wait is because I am exhausted from fighting for the last 8 years. I think they call it "punt".
Anyway, I'm gearing up, because I'm borrowing the call from another post nearby, and can't recall the name of the poster right now.

"Nothing less will do........"

[rhett o rick]

27. "Nothing less will do....." plus "We can not let this die." nm

[bvar22]

30. I STRONGLY disagree.

It is past time for the Obama Administration to appoint an Independent Prosecutor to fully investigate and prosecute ALL (military, civilian, contractor) involved with torture at all levels.
Then the Obama Administration needs to step aside and let the chips fall where they may.

The prosecutions need to be completely thorough and transparent. Mitigating Factors (the "Good Faith" thing) can be considered during the Sentencing Phase after a public trial.

The Obama Administration needs to act quickly on this issue.
There is no downside.

*Appointing an Independent Prosecutor with a squeaky clean record removes a politically explosive issue from Obama's already crowded plate. He (and the Democratic Party) do NOT have to be involved in this.

*Obama will avoid the already simmering perception that he is soft on War Criminals and Torturers.

We cannot "move forward" until we finish our business with the Past.

[rhett o rick]

31. Very well said. nm

[Fendius]

33. Interesting

I agree with you that we should push toward conviction "through" the current administration, I also agree with the original poster that we need to find a better stance on the peoples representation in congress. We have a number of issues, some vastly more important than most, but issues nonetheless that will be dismissed due to congressional agendas... The need to react to history so it does not happen again is a very important point that i agree with you whole heartedly...

[bvar22]

36. You misunderstand me.

I don't want this administration or the Democratic Party to be involved in any way.

Obama should have his AG (Holder) appoint an Independent Proisecutor, and then get completely out of the way.
Let the Torture chips fall where they may.

I would suggest Donald Iglesias.
He is a Republican Federal Prosecutor who was fired by Karl Rove/Bush for refusing to engage in Politically Motivated prosecutions of Democrats.
He would be perfect.



I can find NO ethical reason for Obama/Holder to NOT do this.
(The unethical reasons for not naming an Independent Prosecutor are chilling).

[Fendius]

37. Agreed, well put

Though for Obama to appoint an independant investigator, requires his administration to initially act... So at some point, we have to go through the WH....

[bvar22]

39. Yes.

And we need to be LOUD and DIRECT in our calls for an Independent Prosecutor.
There in NO DOUBT that serious crimes have been committed.











I stand with the ACLU in calling for the Obama Administration to immediately appoint an Independent Prosecutor.
There is no time for "reflection".
This is a time for immediate ACTION.

[annabanana]

47. So you are ok with it. .

Note: ALL crimes "happened in the past" and ALL criminals would like to "turn the page". .

[pocoloco]

5. Sounds good! But......

Just what is this plan you have to get Congress to listen long enough to explain anything to them??

[stillcool]

9. Perhaps if 1% of the population...

hounded their representatives and demanded action something might happen. Who knows? It's never been done before.

[rhett o rick]

14. I was afraid someone would call me on that. I haven't a clue. nm

[CrispyQ]

24. There have been a few times when We the People have made enough of a ruckus,

tying up Congress' phone & fax lines to voice our opinions, to actually make them take notice - & the media too. The bailout last fall comes to mind. But that's the thing - we need to write, call & fax in droves to get any attention from our elected officials. It also helps if it's close to an election. :eyes:

Sadly, it's easier to incite We the People when our 401k's are at risk than when our country's honor is at risk.

[PassingFair]

6. You are not much of a "forward thinker"!

We must forget the past and look only
to the future!

:sarcasm: <--------- in case I need this!



We need war trials like Milosevic's.

[rhett o rick]

20. I am thinking forward to seeing Cheney in chains. nm

[spanone]

7. cheney & bu$h* were smart enough to include democrats 'in the know'

making them complicit and unable to prosecute

[rhett o rick]

16. Well I agree someone was smart enough, I refuse to give that credit to

those two.

[bvar22]

32. That is why we NEED an Independent Prosecutor.

Let the chips fall where they may.

Obama does NOT need to be seen by the World as protecting Torturers and War Criminals.

[Hubert Flottz]

17. "have allowed our government to behave in our name."

What do you think would have happened if you or I had tried to stop the invasion of Iraq? How could we have stopped it? We had our own government gone wild after 9/11, including most of the democrats in congress and the media almost 100% on Bush and the neoCon's side...how would we have "fought back" anymore than we did? How would we have proven to the people of this country, that all those lies that led to the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan were false?

Most of us here at DU spoke out against what the neocons were doing, here in cyber space and at home, from the get-go. We protested but the media marginalized our voices. We wrote and called our Representatives and they either lied to us or ignored us. I tried every way I knew how, to speak out. They never even counted my f*cking vote! So just exactly, how the F*CK, is that sh!t, my fault?

I feel sick about these horrid things which have happened, in my name and I have felt and I still feel a seething rage, but I feel no guilt, because I never voted for, or supported in any way or form, the people who instigated these things, and I know that I did everything I could do, short of a grossly unlawful act, to try and stop it.

I see in my mind's eye, those people jumping out of the World Trade Center, on that horrible day and I will carry that vision to my grave, but I have hated with all of my being, the things that the neocons have done since that day to drag this country down to the level of Nazi Germany, in it's conduct at home and abroad.

When I saw what had happened at Abu Ghraib I was shocked, sickened and enraged. I never thought our country could sink that low, but I don't blame myself and neither should you. We must speak out until the criminals who did these things pay for their barbarism and their gross stupidity. I refuse to "not look back," because to do so would make me, in my own mind, "GUILTY" also!

[rhett o rick]

19. The question is how do we control OUR government. I don't have an answer. I am feeling it isn't

possible. The election of President Obama was a big step but let's not fool ourselves. Those that control this country won't be dissuaded by a mere president. I believe that a majority of the Senate needs to be replaced. They are agents for the ruling class.

I wanted to add that I wasn't at all surprised or shocked at the revelation of Abu Ghraib. As I won't be surprised at future revelations. I feel it was entirely expected from these individuals that took over our government. All the more damning of myself for taking so little action.

[Hubert Flottz]

42. The five SCOTUS justices who trashed our votes in 2000 are

the ones to blame. Without the flawed partisan decision, in the case of Bush vs Gore, none of this probably would have ever happened. Those five neocons on the SCOTUS sElected George Bush and Dick Cheney, not me or you.

[Psychic Consortium]

18. You are 100% correct.

It is not up to Obama to repair our mistakes.
We must take the blame and take necessary legal action.

[spanone]

21. .

[glitch]

22. You assume we have a fully functioning Democratic Republic.

We (and our friends in the world) are to blame for allowing that to be stolen from us and for not getting it back right.
We are not to blame for what the thieves did with it.

[rhett o rick]

25. I do not.....

If we are to blame for allowing our government to be subverted to a oligarchy (and we are to blame. For whatever rationalization we didn't fight hard enough against it), then it follows that we are also to blame for the actions of that government. We are not powerless to change our government, it mite be painful, but we can do it.

See my signature below:

[glitch]

29. I don't think so. I think it's blaming the victim of a crime for every crime the perp committed

after they committed the one on you.

Simple analogy: if someone steals your car because you accidentally left the keys in it (or even if you didn't leave the keys in the car, even if you did everything responsible required in car ownership and they managed to steal it anyway), does this mean you endorse any additional crimes the thief committed while using your car?

I do agree we need to catch the criminals and hold them accountable, and when we do, that will be a strong signal to me (and no doubt to the world) that we the people are back in control of our own government, but I do not see the value in spreading the blame of the criminals' subsequent crimes to the original victims.

[bvar22]

34. After the Wall Street Bailout,

the INCREASE of the Defense Budget,
the escalation of the War in the Middle East,
the shut out of Single Payer advocates from HealthCare debates.....

do you really believe that "We the People" are back in control?

[glitch]

40. Not yet.

I am still hoping. I know, I know.

[rhett o rick]

38. We didn't just leave the keys in the car, we watched as the thieves drove off.

Then we went back to watching American Idol while the thieves were using our car to run over civilians. The whole point of my post is that WE THE PEOPLE didn't do enough at any stage during the eight years and must bear some responsibility. Sending emails to deaf ears wasn't enough.

I am not advocating anarchy, but in truth, if we know our government is committing atrocities, we have an obligation to do whatever it takes to get it stopped including revolution.

Using your logic, the German people shouldn't have been held accountable for the deaths of the concentration camps after Hitler took over the government. I disagree.

[glitch]

41. Were the German people put in prison for the atrocities of the concentration camps?

No, but those directly involved and their leaders were. According to your logic the German people should have been as well.

We agree to disagree.

[rhett o rick]

43. I agree with you.... at least your last sentence. nm

[L. Coyote]

23. Yeah. All those involved in stealing Florida 2000, raise your hands!!

Karl Rove, Tim Griffin, Dick Cheney, all of you, I want to see you after class!

[Gregorian]

28. Your last sentence is crucial.

I fear that there aren't enough people in this country who care enough to make their voice heard. Had there been, we would have impeached. We would not have allowed the bombs to drop in Iraq. Or even Afghanistan, for that matter.

I dearly wish we had a population of educated people in this country. But we appear to be lacking.

I completely agree with your sentiment. Let them know. Demand. They listen to us. They are our servants, in case they forgot.

[Uzybone]

35. I agree...Congress must act

I'm not quite sure what they have been waiting for.

[L0oniX]

44. A lot of DU members need to share the blame for all the damned Susan Boyle threads too.

[rhett o rick]

45. If you mean that those that bother to respond to stupid posts are in part responsible

for those posts, I agree.

[annabanana]

46. This is why I will never give up on a calling to account. .

My Country has made me a torturer and I cannot rest until this weight is lifted. . .

[rhett o rick]

48. My feelings exactly. nm

[Coffee and Cake]

49. I am not taking responsibility for this

My representative, Martin Heinrich, ignores my concerns about the Pentagon allowed $4.7 billion for "public relations". Do you think he will care about my concerns about torture? I highly doubt it. I'm just going to do my best to vote him out in 2010 and don't care if Barny the Dinosaur is running against him.

There is absolutely no way I am accepting responsibility for these torture claims. You are off your rocker.

[annabanana]

50. And how many of your friends, family and acquaintances did you

REALLY work to convince to get him out? Did you knock on doors? Get letters published in your local paper? Challenge Heinrich at his public appearances?

NONE of us did enough to stop this obscenity..NONE of us.

[Coffee and Cake]

51. I will be going door to door during the summer

Informing my fellow constituents about his apathy and indolence along with writing to my paper as election comes. I am waiting since I want to keep people informed about this when it matters. All my friends know about this.

As much as you want to paint me out as responsible for torture, I am not taking responsibility for torture, but kudos for trying.

What do you really expect people to do, to stop this? Head down to Gitmo with guns and ammo and overtake the place? Politicians could care less about our concerns. The Dems were voted into power in 2006 to end the Iraq War and it is still going on.

Obama keeps state secret rights and the power to spy on American citizens. Just business as usual.

[rhett o rick]

53. Well said annabanana. nm

[rhett o rick]

52. You sent your obligitory two emails, so you are off the hook.

Just how meaningful of a dialog do you think you're going to get after calling someone names?

Rationalization is the key to happiness. I guess you are happy. Well good for you.

[Coffee and Cake]

54. I guess you are happy too since you want to rationalize that this torture is my fault

Please don't stop taking your meds.

[rhett o rick]

55. Once again you resort to insults. It wouldn't be necessary if your position were stronger.

You know, I don't really care if you are willing to take responsibility or not. This discussion is closed.