Now we have a reason why they tortured

[seemslikeadream]

Report: Abusive tactics were used to find Iraq-al Qaida link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3843122&mesg_id=3843128

[Skittles]

1. in other words

they tortured to get evidence for stuff they knew was not true :puke:

[seemslikeadream]

2. and it's always the cover up isn't it?

[tbyg52]

26. That's all you ever get. And they knew or should have known it. nt

[EFerrari]

32. Yes. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

3. Torturers torture because they like torturing.

[babylonsister]

13. How does someone identify themself as a torturer? Are you one?

Wouldn't you have to be in a subordinate position and be told to do so to do that?

I couldn't at my age, and would never put myself in a position where that was even an issue. But I haven't walked in anyone's shoes either.

I can't even imagine agreeing with what I might have been told to do. :shrug:

[lunatica]

28. I think most abusive husbands/fathers/mothers are potential torturers

They just don't get the chance to get those jobs.

[MadMaddie]

39. That's a good question

I served in the military along with many members of my family.

From day one at boot camp individuals are indoctrinated to follow orders because if you don't it could cost you or your buddy his/her life.

In the middle of a war, stress levels are high, 9/11 is in the back of the soldiars minds...and then they get these orders.....is it part of war?

This is no excuse for torture but logically I can see how it happened.

[Lerkfish]

23. yup, pretty much.

that moral line is crossed by people who have been salivating at crossing that line, INDEPENDENT of the alleged justifications

[mopinko]

38. the lucky ones get paid. the unlucky

are stuck with being rapists and serial killers.

[merh]

4. and to get confessions related to the 9/11 attacks

They waterboarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed 183 times. The 9/11 commission relied on his "confessions" when preparing the "report".

They relied on the tortured confessions to find that he was the alleged "mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks" - wonder what they would have relied upon had he not been tortured.

[stillcool]

5. Gosh it all goes back to 9/11...

such a circuitous route.

[Solly Mack]

9. I think I'm falling in love with your wit

If that's OK. I promise not to stalk your wit or write sonnets to your wit. But if on occasion, I should happen to come upon your wit, I would very much little to snicker, giggle and snort, as the circumstance demands. With your permission, of course.

[stillcool]

10. You most assuredly have my permission..

to snicker, giggle and snort at will. I hope I continue to amuse. Perhaps if come upon my wit, you will let me know?

[Solly Mack]

12. teehee

[Usrename]

40. True. The 9/11 Commission Report was based on torture.

It's another separate violation of the Convention Against Torture to use any statements obtained through torture in any official proceeding.

It is a separate crime all its own. Why haven't any of the commissioners denounced their report? They know NOW that it contains statements obtained through torture. It's all a farce. A cruel farce.

The whole 9/11 coverup will start unravelling once their report is discredited, and it should be, or else they should be charged with crimes.

The Iraq justification was supposed to be provided by smuggling or planting WMD evidence in Iraq. Something like the nuclear triggers that were uncovered on the black market at that time. Sibel Edmonds seems to know a lot about what they were up to back then.

[merh]

41. I think you may be the only one that has seen the importance of this

fact.

Now that it has officially been confirmed that detainees were tortured and that the commission relied on the confessions of detainees that were tortured, the 9/11 commission should denounce the practice and ask to reconvene to investigate further and to investigate the torture and it's impact on getting to the truth.

I hadn't realized that it was a violation of the Convention Against Torture to use any statements obtained through torture in any official proceeding.

[Usrename]

42. Not too many folks are aware of it. For clarity for other readers:

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment

Article 15

Each State Party shall ensure that any statement which is established to have been made as a result of torture shall not be invoked as evidence in any proceedings, except against a person accused of torture as evidence that the statement was made.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm

[merh]

43. thank you for the information

Maybe this provision deserves a thread of its own, how many proceedings have relied upon tortured confessions?

[Usrename]

44. Definitely.

I think you should post a thread on this subject.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2841686#2841967

[merh]

45. Unfortunately, my threads get very little attention.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5517838&mesg_id=5517838

I don't know why it is, but they fall fast.

Maybe you can post it or we can get someone else to post it.

[Usrename]

47. That's my problem, too.

I'm working on autorank to post something.

Maybe you can also get in touch with him. He had a very positive response to this subject in this other thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5512642&mesg_id=5519673

[merh]

48. I may just do that, thanks.

and thanks for posting in my thread.

:hi:

[mix]

6. Torture is great for producing propaganda

which is exactly what every attempt to link al-Qaida and Iraq has been, rank propaganda...the torture techniques used were developed to produce propaganda in North Korea and the Soviet Union, that's the CIA's inspiration (see link below).

After 9/11 these techniques also were simple sadistic revenge driven by racism.

[cliffordu]

7. Yep. Here's the money shot.

[Solly Mack]

8. Lied, trumped up intelligence and then tortured people in an attempt to prove their lies

Because people being tortured will say anything

[bleever]

14. And yet, they are hoist by their own petard, because

in torturing "evidence" for their lies out of people (guilty and otherwise), what they gleaned was a confetti of desperate fabrications, never to be made into a narrative that could survive serious scrutiny.

The sadness is unfathomable.

[Solly Mack]

17. it was always a weak narrative

Sadly, some bought into it :(

[Kaleko]

11. Only 2 recommendations?

We can do better than that.

[denem]

15. The jig is up IMO.

[Dappleganger]

16. It's all ok as long as they get something...

ends justifies the means, right?

[bleever]

18. This deserves to be at the top of the Greatest.

It might pertain to the mystery of why Zelikow went public about his objections to torture, but in any case it is the Iraq War lies and their cost raised to an exponential degree.

And that exponent applies to the cost to America, as well as to those tortured, some of them to death.

[immoderate]

19. The torture will stop when attitudes improve!

--imm

[tblue37]

27. Isn't that "The torture will stop when MORALE improves"? nt

[immoderate]

31. Either one works for me.

--imm

[EFerrari]

20. They went right to abuse immediately after 9/11 when they rounded up

thousands of people in New York. That was before their Iraq plan was even public.

There is no way Dick Cheney would be in office for eight years and carry out his agenda and not torture, 9/11 or not.

[Solly Mack]

22. That's true. Abuses started then

[Beam Me Up]

33. Say what?

They rounded up thousands of people in New York and according to you it was "right" to abuse these people after 9/11??

Please explain that logic to me.

[leftstreet]

21. K&R

[Mnemosyne]

24. War criminals. knr n/t

[bleever]

25. Kick.

[alfredo]

29. Would you want your daughter to marry a torturer?

[alsame]

30. And I would bet they were trying to get fake links to Iran too. n/t

[seemslikeadream]

34. yes Cheney did want to dress up some of our soldiers like Iranians

and shoot at our ships

[spanone]

35. not to keep us safe....TO START A WAR...

[robertpaulsen]

36. K & R!

:kick:

[sattahipdeep]

37. It was a memorable performance

Black, a former CIA career official and covert operative

Black, who held the counterterrorism post for two years, helped carry out Bush's
hard-line policy and was a public face of the war the president declared on terrorism after the September 11, 2001, attacks.
http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/index.html?siteSect=143&sid=5321190

WASHINGTON - A top former CIA official said the intelligence agency had more than 100 Afghans acting as spies before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, but told a magazine in a rare interview that nothing could have averted the attacks.
....
who's side were they on?

Cofer Black, the former head of the CIA’s counterterrorism center, said that looking back, he can’t think of a thing "we could have done that would have changed anything." Black, a top executive with Blackwater Worldwide
....
sure.........he wouldn't have cause he made some really big bucks with that.

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/politics/general/view/2008_10_06_Ex-_CIA_official_Cofer_Black:_9_11_could_not_be_averted/srvc=home&position=recent


Blackwater's Cofer Black stays in the shadows
....
http://www.muckety.com/news/101707-Blackwaters-Cofer-Black-stays-in-the-shadows.html

The 2001 report noted. Jordan also is known to use prisoners' family members to induce suspects to talk.

At a Sept. 26 joint hearing of the House and Senate intelligence committees, Cofer Black, then head of the CIA Counterterrorist Center, spoke cryptically about the agency's new forms of "operational flexibility" in dealing with suspected terrorists. "This is a very highly classified area, but I have to say that all you need to know: There was a before 9/11, and there was an after 9/11," Black said. "After 9/11 the gloves come off."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/09/AR2006060901356.html


It was a memorable performance

Black wanted the mission to begin as soon as possible, and he didn't have any doubt that it would succeed.

"You give us the mission," he said, "we can get 'em." At one point he threw his fist in the air.

"We'll rout 'em out," he said, echoing the president's public language about smoking out the terrorists from their caves.

"They'll have flies on their eyeballs," he said -- an image of death that left a lasting impression with a number of war cabinet members. Black became known in Bush's inner circle as "the flies-on-the-eyeballs guy."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/18/AR2006071800687_pf.html

[Echo In Light]

46. It sorta doesn't make sense tho since they could've just as easily made shit up themselves...

...as they did re other things, and then had the M$M sell it for public consumption.

I maintain that the mass detainments/torture/rape/murder were specifically implemented to bolster the degree of conflict the PNACers WANTED and needed to justify their worldview.

[Joanne98]

49. BINGO