This multiple questions of sex offenders made me think, and I must ask...

[Hawkeye-X]

What if that child molester or any sex offender that has been fully rehabilitated by a certified rehabilitation facility and have the proper tools, passed their polygraphs, passed their plethysmograph, have done all the necessary restitution back to the victim(s), and deemed by their therapist, PO or parole officer to be fit back to society, do you still want them to be treated like a scum?

That's what I want to know.

I know, somebody's gonna have to look from the *other* side.

Hawkeye-X

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. In Canada...

where they provide adequate psychological therapy, aren't required to notify the public where they are living, and don't have strange draconian catch-22s, convicted sex offenders aren't only more likely to register with police, they have lower recidivism rats.

[CoffeeCat]

9. Excuse me but...

....90 percent of childhood sexual abuse victims NEVER tell that they were abused. The survivors who do
manage to tell, are often in their 30's and 40's when they finally gain the courage to speak out. By
that time, the perp is either dead, living somewhere else or the police refuse to prosecute because
of the statute of limitations.

I find it laughable when anyone tries to assert anything positive about convicted child molesters---with
this "low recidivism" stuff.

Molestation victims to not speak out. Child molesters are extremely skilled at "grooming" their victims
and manipulating them into silence. My perp told me that I would die and that my sister would die and
that everyone I ever knew or loved would go to jail.

Sit in the support groups with me--and you'll hear some remarkable silencing techniques. These kids are told
that their parents will be killed. Their pets will be murdered. They'll be thrown in jail. NO one will
believe them. Perps also degrade children into little bits of dust--telling them that they're dirty, bad
and that they asked for the abuse.

Please....don't tell me that these evil, manipulative, conscious-lacking convicted child rapists have "low
recidivism rates". If someone is truly rehabilitated, more power to them, but just because a convicted child
molester has not been caught again, doesn't mean he stopped molesting. It's not like these guys are robbing
banks. They steal from victims who have no voice.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. Ah, right.

"Nobody's accused him of a crime, but that doesn't mean he hasn't committed one. Let's just assume he has anyway."

:rofl:

[KittyWampus]

16. No, it's more like- they've molested someone and got caught and the FACT is

they probably molested before without getting caught and will molest again in the future.

The probability is definately high that someone molested before getting caught... but victims seldom speak out.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. Right.

And maybe they convort with the devil, and hold black masses with their covens.

But here in the twenty first century you don't punish people for crimes they haven't committed. And you don't abandon reason for pseudoscience.

[MichiganVote]

40. it is equally true that we protect people from unsafe possibilities

Shall a civilized society abandon that as well?

[Toots]

55. I think the recidivism rate for LIARS is as bad and so is it for thiefs

Prove to me that people who are jailed for perjury never LIE again or people who go to jail for theft never steal again. I guess the Constitution can be done away with if you find the cause worthy but not if a Republican finds the cause worthy...

[Nutmegger]

2. Everyone should have a chance to redeem themselves.

If one sex offender can redeem him/her-self, straighted out his/her life and contribute to society then it's totally worth it to facilitate an aggressive therapy program.

Not add him to some "offender list", he/she not able to get a job and end up adding to the homeless population. What do you think is going to happen when a sex offender is flat broke, can't get a job and having his property vandalized by some thugs who seek revenge?

A lot of people don't look at the other side because it's not easy to. It's easy to say "CUT OFF HIS BALLS!!" or "KILL HIM!!".

[Dinger]

7. Good Points

especially:

" What do you think is going to happen when a sex offender is flat broke, can't get a job and having his property vandalized by some thugs who seek revenge?"

[MichiganVote]

39. Aren't there many sex offenders who have "contributed" to society?

What about the ministers, teachers, fathers or mothers, Aunts or Uncles who have somehow missed the legal system yet have lived in society, raised families, paid taxes....all the while molesting kids. Are they redeemed? Have they not met your criteria minus aggressive therapy?

Is there any proof that sexual predators who are homeless molest more often than not? Is there any evidence to show that sex offenders who are jobless are more likely to offend or re-offend?

And what about that property of the sexual offender...isn't it a fact that adult sexual predators view their victims as a piece of their property? How about the sexual traffic of minors throughout the globe...are you suggesting these inhumane brokers are flat broke? If so, you might better check into the newest research which cites sexual trafficking as more lucrative than the drug trade.

[Nutmegger]

52. And murderers pay their taxes before they are caught too.

Of course, I'm talking about after the fact when they are released and have shown a commitment to the an aggressive therapy program. They have redeemed themselves when they are able to enter into society, contribute and not re-offend. I guess that’s forward thinking for some since the myth is that offenders always re-offend.

I guess it doesn’t bother you that the homeless population grows since offenders, not limited to sexual ones, can’t find stable employment.

Time to Work: Managing the Employment of Sex Offenders Under Community Supervision

Research has shown that meaningful employment can provide a stabilizing influence by involving offenders in pro-social activities and assisting them in structuring their time, improving their self-esteem, and meeting their financial obligations (Curtis and Schulman, 1984).

The Research on Offenders and Work

During the past 20 years, research on recidivism of the general criminal population identified a history of unstable employment as one of the factors that consistently is associated with subsequent criminal behavior (Gendreau, Little, and Goggin, 1996).

Although the factors associated with recidivism of sex offenders in particular are not yet completely known, several recent studies suggest a link between sex offenders’ employment status and reoffense rates. In one study of dynamic factors associated with recidivism, data were collected on more than 400 sex offenders. The researchers found that those who committed subsequent sexual offenses were more likely to be unemployed (Hanson and Harris, 1998). Another study revealed that the only factors associated with reduced reoffending among sex offenders were the combination of stable employment and sex offender treatment (Kruttshnitt, Uggen, and Shelton, 2000). In this study, researchers found that sex offenders who had stable employment at the time of their sentencing were 37 percent less likely to be convicted for a new crime than those whose employment histories were not as stable. Such findings suggest that stable employment is a contributing factor in helping reduce sex offender recidivism.

It’s clear that in any situation stable employment is key. You can’t expect the kick sex offenders to the curb and look the other way and think that the problem is solved. Part of the problem is that people with ideas are always attacked for not “thinking of the victims”. Yes, the victims should be thought of but that doesn’t mean that we should continue on the current path, which is inherently broken. What’s next? Special license plates? Perhaps a tattoo? And it’s all okay because that person is an offender. Sweep it under the run and forget about it.

You are blinded by your disgust.

[MichiganVote]

54. You may be interested to know....

"I guess it doesn’t bother you that the homeless population grows since offenders, not limited to sexual ones, can’t find stable employment."


.....that I work among the homeless, did my 9 month internship in grad school at an agency that assisted the homeless and wrote my thesis on homelessness. Homelessness is not restricted to offenders of any stripe. In fact, the research that I did indicated that the majority of the homeless are single females with an average of 2-4 children who HAVE been sexually abused.

Confused? I prefer to credit you with egg on face as opposed to being blinded by disgust.

[kimmerspixelated]

3. Call me harsh,

But I don't think child molesters deserve to be rehabilitated. Nail their dick to a stump, catch the stump on fire, then hand them a knife!

[philosophie_en_rose]

4. Define "treated like scum."

If a child molester could be rehabilitated, there is no way to really know it. Sex offenses have an incredible recidivism rate and there's simply no way to know whether someone is a risk?

So what, then? Should previously convicted child molesters be assaulted or murdered or, as some people seem think is so funny, raped? Of course not.

But they should be watched. These miraculously rehabilitated people (should they exist) should have to register. They should never work with or near children, especially not without close supervision. Removing the opportunity/ temptation seems to be a safe way to protect the public - as well as the offender's recovery.

As to scorn from strangers, the family, victims, or the public --> sex offenders don't have the right to be liked. They should have help transitioning into society, but should expect to have to earn trust. If having neighbors notified about an offender's proximity to children is "being treated like scum," then I have no problem with that. If a previous school teacher has to work the night shift at a different job is "being treated like scum," then I don't think that's a problem either. If scorn from family members or victims is "being treated like scum," then I think the victims and secondary victims (parents, society, family) have a right to their feelings.

[KittyWampus]

18. Sex offender advocates recommend supervised group houses. Like alchoholics, they help one another

"stay clean".

[philosophie_en_rose]

20. How is that being "treated like scum?"

If sex offenses represent a choice, then supervised group homes hardly seem like a problem.

If sex offenses represent a disease, then supervised group homes also hardly seem like a problem.

[Hawkeye-X]

23. Where did you hear that?

And are you advocating something like Florida has? or as I hear, from Washington State - put 'em all in a island and force them never to leave the island?

Hawkeye-X

[CoffeeCat]

5. I don't know about which...

...discussions you are referring, but I can tell you that from my perspective--I would shake this
person's hand, give them a hug and praise them for being brave and courageous.

I'm a victim of pedophiles. I spent all of my childhood being molested by a group who were
running an organized child pornography/pedophile ring. These people were sexual terrorists.
I've spent thousands on therapy and I've been diagnosed with PTSD. These bastards took my
childhood and I'm still learning how to manage the PTSD--and I'm 43. Every day of my life
has been affected by the abuse.

My main perpetrator refused to acknowledge that I was abused. He denied it flatly and then
proceeded to put on an academy-award winning performance, with him winning Best Victim Award.
He convinced everyone who knew me that I'd gone off the deep end. Then, he visited a priest
(my former high school principal who knew me well), to "seek guidance" about what he should
do about my "lies". The priest believed him. My mother cut me off for lying.

I've met hundreds of sexual abuse survivors--online and off. Not one has received an apology.
Not one has received acknowledgment of the abuse. They are all left twisting in the wind--
with wounds that never heal--and can only be managed.

My therapist has said that the vast majority of perps never admit to wrongdoing--even with
multiple victims and even videotape evidence. The vast majority of these people are insidious,
pure evil and they have no regard for themselves or anyone else. They lack humanity and they
therefore do not recognize it in others. That's what allows them to abuse without shame or
guilt--for decades.

So----I would be elated to meet a perp with the indicators that you describe. It would
be healing to meet someone like that. I sincerely, in my 5 years of therapy, research and
reading about perps--have never heard about a molester meeting the criteria that you describe.

I'm sure someone like that may exist---and I would welcome the opportunity.

[Dinger]

6. Each Individual Situation Is Different

The 18 year-old kid who has sexual contact with his 15 year old girlfriend should know better, but I have heard of cases where people with NO criminal record have been sentenced up to 10 years in prison, even with a signed affadavit of the parents stating that they thought counseling, not prison, would be more appropriate, and wherepolice reports have said the sex was consentual. In one case, I observed a jury trial, and in another, it was someone I knew. I sometimes wonder whatever became of these people.
Then there is the case of a habitual pedophile, who won't stoptill they are incarcerated or until they die. They hunt their victims like prey, and what they do to these kids is unspeakable. The punishment should definitely fit the crime, but I am against the death penalty. These predators should be dealt with most severely, and according to the law.
And whoever thought of the idea of special license plates for sex offrenders, even after they have paid their debt to society, needs to think of others who might use the vehicle, who are not sex offenders, that could become victims themselves just for being in or driving the vehicle. Should these people have to buy two cars?
I don't think we can have a one-size-fits-all approach to the punishment/rehabilitation of sex offenders. I think that things like this should be dealt with on a case by case basis, and with input from the victim & their family and with input from the offender and their family, and in accordance with the law.

[Coyote_Bandit]

8. I know two folks

who see this from the "other" side.

One was a then eighteen year old who had consensual sex with his then fifteen year old girlfriend. Statutory rape earned him a spot on the registered sex offender list. The couple later married and have been married for several years now.

The other was a young fellow going through fraternity initiation. He was arrested in the middle of a public street wearing only a diaper. The indecency conviction earned him a spot on the list.

Neither of them used very good judgment at the time - and otherwise both have had no other legal problems.

Personally, I am surprised that there has not been litigation challenging the validity of the sex offender registration lists. It would seem that thee might be constitutional arguments under the equal protection clause (since there are often no distinctions regarding the nature of the offense or likelihood of recidivism - and since offenders who committed nonsexual offenses are not treated likewise) or under the double jeopardy clause (since the punishment is ongoing and in addition to other punitive measures - this would be particularly true for those who were sentenced before any registration measures were put in place).

[Dinger]

37. Excellent Points Coyote (nt)

[shadowrider]

11. Excellent website

I'm new here and don't log on that often. This is actually my first post.

Regardless of whether or not you think molesters can be rehabilitated, this is an excellent website to go to to see who is living in your neighborhood.

http://www.familywatchdog.us

I was surprised by the results when I put in my zip code.

[newyawker99]

13. Hi shadowrider!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[shadowrider]

14. thanks

Glad to (hic) be here..:)

[uppityperson]

30. OMG, one of UPJr's former classmates is on there.

thank you for the website. omg, not totally surprised, but still, o.m.g.

[mudesi]

12. Prevention, prevention, prevention

Catch them young and help them before they commit a truly heinous crime. Most sex offenders start off with small things like public indecency. They don't need jail, they need psychological treatment.

[walldude]

15. Yeah but the question is how do you know if treatment helps them?

An acquaintance of mine had a son who molested his step-sister at age 12. He was put in a program till age 16, when he was released it took him less than a month to do it again. He was incarcerated again till age 21, and upon released was instantly welcomed into The Marine Corps.

[Morgana LaFey]

17. At this point in the planet, your premise is wholly and completely

impossible. There IS no rehabilitation for child molesters. It can't be done.
And personally, I find it offensive that you're more worried about them than their victims.

[Hawkeye-X]

24. I understand. Here is an example:

I met a sex offender a few years ago that has a felony conviction (class 3) of sex assault on a minor.

He is a family man, and I have met his wife, and he has a minor son. For the first 2 years in therapy, he was not allowed to see his son (he was not the victim, but the son's friend was). After passing polygraphs and everything else, the probation officer decided to allow full contact of his son (he missed 2 Christmases with him). He has a full time job at a prestigious car dealership. He has completed all of his modules, and is constantly reviewing them. He has been allowed to come to therapy every other week (Most sex offenders are required to come every week, some are allowed every other week, and another category allowed once a month as long as there is no recividism, which is carefully monitored via polygraph, plethsymograph, etc). He has maintained an excellent record of honesty and no new issues regarding the abuse has come up.

He will be off probation in September. By law, he will be continue to be required to register as a sex offender for 10 years and then petition to get off the offender list as long as there is no further problems or arrests.

Do you think this sex offender would fall back to his old behavior?

From my point of view (I am a survivor, for what it's worth), he deserves to be redeemed because he attends the largest, the most restrictive, aggressive, and intensive sex offender management program here in Colorado, who has been used by federal courts, state courts, and even city courts to refer during probationary period.

[Morgana LaFey]

38. You didn't tell me what he was convicted of

or what he did: a felony conviction (class 3) of sex assault on a minor. -- for all I know that was consensual sex with a minor when he was a teen too (aka: statutory rape).

Do you think this sex offender would fall back to his old behavior?

If it was statutory rape, no, or at least probably not (if he was not much older at the time). If he was molesting young boys, probably yes, unless closely supervised.

OR, let me put this another way: the metrics on pedophiles isn't good and you know it yourself. I know of maybe (MAYBE) one person who seems to be rehabilitated, and he's the guy who is sometimes a spokesperson on cable news shows on the subject. But I only ASSUME he's "cured" because that's how he presents himself. I don't know for sure and neither do you or, in fact, probably anyone but him.

I'm not willing to let innocent children be victimized. I'm not willing to live in a society that turns its back on innocent children AND IN THE PROCESS creates more future pedophiles and more broken lives.

The fact is we do not know how to "cure" child molesters, and that means we have to find ways to protect the children. The men (and a few women) know it's wrong and they apparently can't help or stop themselves anyway. That means they have to be kept away from children, somehow. Because I'm not willing to sacrifice any more children to their so-called "civil rights." The children HAVE no rights in that scenario, and that's far less okay with me than the perps -- the ones who know it's wrong yet can't control themselves -- having fewer rights.

[Hawkeye-X]

50. What he did..

Was he grabbed the minor's genitals, apologized, but still got reported to the police.

[Morgana LaFey]

56. It would take a bunch of experts to convince me either way

I have no idea if he'd re-offend.

But wasn't I the clever one to intuit that you were laying a trap for me?

[Gen. Jack D. Ripper]

26. What should be done?

Seriously. Life long imprisonment, social isolation, death? It sounds like you believe they are "incurable." I take this to mean you believe that pedophiles are genetically dysfunctional. Perhaps we can identify a pedophile gene, and the defect can be corrected in the whom? And, again, I'm serious about this. I think it would be a good idea, as I believe some people are predisposed to pedophilia.

[Morgana LaFey]

42. Do you really not know where pedophiles come from?

Really?

Pedophiles are made, not born. Pedophiles -- today's perps -- were yesterday's victims.

That's one reason I care so much about not letting today's perps harm again: the children they harm are going to be highly dysfunctional adults (alcohol and drug addiction, prostitution and other sex work, inability to form intimate relationships, teen pregnancy, broken marriages, trouble with the law, on and on). They are likely to either continue to be victimized in other ways (e.g., spousal abuse) OR become perpetrators themselves (or be both victims and perps).

Society really needs to get a handle on this. Each perp can "create" dozens if not hundreds of future perps, and ruin the lives of EVERY ONE of their victims. I believe we as a society have the obligation to protect innocent children from having their WHOLE lives torn from them and ruined thru no fault of their own. We aren't meeting that obligation very well, but I do believe we have it.

I don't really care all that much about the perps themselves. I don't have THAT much animosity or, more accurately, thirst for revenge or vengeance. And when I do, I try to remind myself that they were once innocent children who got ruined at the hands of some other perp. They were victims once too. I think they should be held accountable and all that, but my main interest is preventing continued harm to other children. Given psychology's inability to come up with a "cure," that may mean lifelong isolation in some way.

[mudesi]

33. That is ignorance on your part

>>There IS no rehabilitation for child molesters.<<

False.

[Morgana LaFey]

36. Okay. I know of ONE -- maybe.

Not exactly a trend, is it?

[MichiganVote]

19. Define rehabilitation. Define certified rehab. Define restitution.

Define 'fit for society'.

If you can get legislators and law enforcement and victims to agree on those things, you may on to something.

But I think that's highly unlikely.

edit/typo

[Hawkeye-X]

25. Well, I don't see any sex offender advocates

So it'll be impossible to find a middle ground to work with...

[MichiganVote]

27. Then you seem to have missed the advocacy of the Catholic church,

of legislators, or law enforcement who for decades have hidden or ignored this problem despite the resultant hazards to our population.

[uppityperson]

29. Define Sex Offender.

[MichiganVote]

34. Suggest you check the law books for current information

[uppityperson]

44. No thank you, just checking because the definition varies widely legally

Seriously sick sex offenders to teenagers having consensual sex with a minor. (ok, let's not get into if a minor can give consent, just for the sake of this discussion say a person 1 day under the legal age of consent but mature enough (ha) to do so). See posts #6 and #8 above. Who can be rehabilitated depends on the crime. What I consider seriously sick sex offenders, I would not trust them even if all of the OP's conditions were met. Guess I am narrow minded that way?

[MichiganVote]

45. Well I am not aware of any court that specifies the term 'sex offender'

or even why the term is used beyond its expected connotation of someone having committed a criminal sexual act. But I can tell you that "who can be rehabilitated" is less dependent on the crime than on the criminal, based on my clinical experience.

And for what its worth...whatever you have in mind when it comes to seriously sick offenders...don't trust them...ever. That's not narrow mindedness, that's just good judgement.

[uppityperson]

46. That is all true and I agree.

[MichiganVote]

47. :) We're just so smart.

[uppityperson]

48. Oh crap, I just realized, I meant the "define" to go under your define to OP

not to you. Oh well. Smart is as smart does!:toast:

[MichiganVote]

49. Aw hell, who needs em'. And anyway, I've made that mistake countless times

[Forkboy]

22. "Let's see what makes Stewart smile!"

Plethysmograph

If Stewart talked what would he say?
Enough to keep you here ten more years
Where we zap ya with our "therapy"
Throw the switch on your fantasies

With our little electronic ring
Clamped around your love thing
Flash ya pictures Clockwork Orange-style
Let's see what makes Stewart smile!

Try not to expand!
Don't trust the plethysmograph!

If the machine catches you erect
Ain't no way you're getting out of here
Back to aversion therapy
As we watch our toys watch you

Flood your face with ammonia gas
And the scent of rotting placentas
Little electric shock or two
This is how we cure you

Don't let it expand!
Don't trip the plethysmograph!

Little girls and boys,panties past their thighs,try not to rise
Three strokes you're out!
Comely amputees scratch themselves for fleas down at Muscle Beach
Three strokes you're out!
Grand Wizard Newt,in a sailor suit,dancing with a flute
Three strokes you're out!
Brazillion babes,titties made of clay,spread their waxy legs for Great Danes!

Who invents this stuff?
Do their kids join cults?
What do they fantasize to get themselves off?

Wanna see child porn?
Join the Vice Squad
In the name of correction we play with all we want

Nothing is private anymore
Lie detectors were never this fun
Says the Attorney General Man
As he ends the morning prayer meeting

Back to his office for electronic ring
Clamps it on his sinful thing
Rewind the tape,let me see some more
So I can feel my eagle soar!

He's speaking in tongues!
Now he can't shut it off!
Crashing through the glass!
Praise the Plethysmograph!

lyrics by Jello Biafra...who else?

[ComerPerro]

28. well, considering some here want them to be executed, I am guessing yes

[mzteris]

31. dupe

self delete

[mzteris]

32. has any child molester

ever been certified as "recovered"??

[MichiganVote]

35. Ask the Catholic church. They seem to swear by it.

[ComerPerro]

41. hahahahahaha

[mzteris]

43. yeah. right.

I rest my case.

:eyes:

[aikoaiko]

51. If such a person existed -- he or she would not ask to have the law changed and understand reactions

people might have about his/her behavior.

[cgrindley]

53. If we are actually discussing child molesters, yes, certainly

it should carry a mandatory life sentence with no possibility of parole.