Fact: God Is The Biggest Abortionist Of All

[stopbush]

It's a fact that a little over 25% of pregnancies in the USA end in spontaneous abortion (miscarriages, still births, etc). It's a fact. Look it up (where you'll see that some researchers estimate the number of spontaneous abortions around the world to account for 50% of all pregnancies. 50%!).

The fundie god squad tells you that a human life begins at conception. If that's true, then god is the biggest abortionist of all, murdering over 25% of "his American children" before they've had a chance to be born, and murdering 50% of his children around the world sometime between conception and a live birth.

OR -

it could be that abortion is a natural part of our evolution-driven existence, and that abortions are just a fact of life.

BTW - it's sick to see abortion becoming a fucking issue in this fucking health bill, and becoming an issue because a couple of fundie DEM Reps who are members of the infamous Family in DC inserted this crap into the bill at the last minute.

Further BTW - why is it that crap like this abortion amendment seems to have no problem being inserted into a bill at the 11th hour while a true single-payer amendment wouldn't even be given time on the floor of the House, even when the Ds are in charge?

[Zoeisright]

1. It's also such a private issue that it's impossible to prohibit.

I always like to ask anti-choice nuts exactly HOW they are going to enforce an anti-abortion policy.

Will they force women to take pregnancy tests every month and put them under 24 hour surveillance until they have miscarriages or give birth?

Are they willing to have women's bodies made crime scenes every time there is a miscarriage?

Exactly how far are they willing to go?

Most nuts are too squeamish to go that far, but I'm sure some misogynists would be only too happy to become the Taliban in this country.

[keepthemhonest]

34. I like your argument

I wish i could remember all of that next time it comes up.

[ourbluenation]

2. meh. I'm pro-choice but I can see that there's a difference between

naturally occuring abortions and, you know, the kind you go out and get. Not sure where you're going with this but I can feel your frustration. I'm frustrated too. The amendment was a slap in the face to women.

[LeftyMom]

3. The induced kind are easier.

Seriesly, that's the difference.

[ourbluenation]

7. On the face of it the difference is that one happens naturally, the other artificially. n/t

[stopbush]

9. Not really. Whatever one thinks of abortion, the religionist is in the position

of having to argue the Divine Command Theory of Ethics.

As god is the author of most abortions, then god must approve of abortions. Whether god approves them as being good or cruel is irrelevant to the argument. Such an argument can lead only to a tautology.

So, if man "artificially" performs abortions, he is still performing an act that god himself approves of, either as an act of good or evil. God still approves of the basic act.

[The Straight Story]

22. Does the same apply to murder?

Since 100% of people die then such is an act of god, so killing others is simply doing god's work.

[ourbluenation]

30. thank you. that's exactly what I'm trying to say. That just because "god" causes naturally

occurring abortions does not mean by any stretch of the imagination, that "god" would approve of artificially induced abortions. Just like you said...people die naturally, so "god" would be totally down with murder. I don't think so.

[stopbush]

32. Who defines murder? Certainly, not god, who sanctions all kinds of killing in the OT.

Society recognizes degrees of murder, does it not, with different levels of atonement demanded of human beings who are found guilty of the act.

But you miss my entire point. Try again.

[sandnsea]

15. So it's the woman taking control that's the real problem

Because it certainly isn't the loss of the blastocyst. Most of the time we don't even know it's happened.

[ourbluenation]

29. don't be ridiculous. I'm a pro choice atheist but even I can see that this

argument...that God or Nature or The Force (as in "may The Force be with you") causes boat loads of abortions so everyone come the fuck down about legal abortion, will fall flat as a pancake on pro-life folks. The obvious response will be that the difference between the two is that in the latter the person chooses to abort, as opposed to God or Nature or The Force causing the abortion beyond one's control. That's all I'm saying. I get it. I just don't think it's a very useful argument.

carry on...

[sandnsea]

35. Fact is fact, it's the truth

Women lose fertilized eggs all the time. In fact, that's one of the reasons the Catholic Church gives for opposing birth control, it might interfere with a fertilized egg. They should be confronted with the craziness of that belief. Nobody cries over a menstrual period. It's absurd to equate a period to a baby. That's how nuts they are.

[ourbluenation]

36. I agree that it's a fact that nature aborts. Confronting pro life folks with that fact will get

you no where. But go ahead if you want to. To me the better argument to make is that true freedom would let women choose what they want to do with their own bodies.

[girl gone mad]

18. How so?

Spontaneous abortions can occur as a result of drugs (including caffeine), exposure to electromagnetic fields, poor nutrition, strenuous exercise, stress, disease, etc. How is that any more natural than a woman willfully choosing to terminate a pregnancy? Why is exercising direct control over one's body less natural than an event that happens as an indirect result of human actions?

[Toots]

24. So you are saying man is not a part of nature?

What if a bear mauled a pregnant woman and caused her to abort? Is a bear more natural than man?

[Dorian Gray]

20. I don't know about that

I've been with friends who have gone for abortions, and I just recently suffered a miscarriage and had a D & C as a result.

I think that it was difficult on both groups for many similar and some different reasons.

[stopbush]

4. Where I'm going with this is that most people have no idea that the

percentage of naturally occurring abortions is so high.

Look, the body is designed to heal itself to a certain degree. That doesn't stop us from going to doctors and getting medical treatment that speeds up the process. Is there "a difference" between the two? Sure. Do we as a society attach a stigma to a doctor providing care? Only, it seems, if it's for an abortion or an assisted suicide.

I'm sick of the fucking religionists driving this argument, an argument that fails even if it is taken on their fantasy-based terms.

I'm so sick of fucking religion and the undue influence it has on our lives - fundie, moderate, fervent or lukewarm, it all can go to hell.

BTW - this is a classic case of the so-called "Divine Command Theory of Ethics," is it not? It's the old Socrates argument of, “Is charity good because God approved of it, or did God approve of charity because it is good?”

[PDJane]

5. I manned the baricades the first time around for

a womans right to choose.

I am of the age where women lost their lives to rid themselves of an unwanted pregnancy, or lost their ability to have children.

Women will obtain abortions. Women will do all kinds of dangerous things to rid themselves of unwanted pregnancies. It's like booze, drugs and prostitution; you can legislate them out of existence, but they don't go away.

It's time to act like adults on this and other social ills. Instead of jails, spend the money on education and treatment and contraception.

Just grow the hell up.

[renegade000]

6. Oh, but you see, he works in mysterious ways...

Natural abortions are part of his super-special-awesome divine plan, whereas human-induced abortions are the products of our human arrogance and moral depravity. We think we know what to do with our lives and bodies better than god in his omniscient and omnipotent ways. We must follow his command to "be fruitful and multiply", even if it means we completely overload the environment and our own economic means to support our children, because life in and of itself is precious: future quality-of-life, pain, and suffering are irrelevant. God, being omnipotent, of course, could control everyone's actions, but that leads to some nasty theological difficulties of theodicy, so of course he gave us free-will to choose between following his plan or following the path of Satan. The only thing stopping all of us from being damned to hell for eternity is our glorious moral crusaders attempting to codify God's plan into law. And of course this has nothing to do with the fact that our "pious" community has a subconscious need to feel more holy and special than the "infidels" and have people to hate and shun.

Do I have the "reasoning" down right?
:shrug:

[PDJane]

8. No idea, but

I called a miscarriage a 'spontaneous abortion' for years (one of my first jobs was in hospital medical records department). I stopped doing it only because I had so many people bent out of shape about it, and screaming at me over 'abortions'.

I simply don't care what the reasoning is supposed to be, denying a medical procedure that saves lives and the quality of life is just simply wrong. Moreover, for a child under about 15, an abortion is safer than a pregnancy carried to term. Children who have babies have too many complications and the offspring is liable to die in the process. It's just wrong.

[renegade000]

11. Why did people get upset?

Were the people getting upset patients who didn't want to be associated with the word "abortion"? Co-workers?
It's odd people get so worried over words. I guess it just demonstrates the power of certain segments of society to affect the very connotations of technically accurate terms.

And I agree with you 100%. I don't fathom the reasoning behind it at all...quite frankly because I don't think there is solid reasoning. It's all based on wishy-washy notions of "the sanctity of life" (what does that MEAN exactly?), or the fact that people have a natural urge to want to judge people to be less moral than they perceive (or want to perceive) themselves to be.

[PDJane]

28. It's a combination of ignorance

and a hot button word. If you think about it, spontaneous abortion is a very precise term. However, the word 'abortion' is such an emotionally freighted word for some that they don't think, just react. It's that 'you're killing BABIES' thing. Hell, even my right wing son got over that in high school.

[wpelb]

10. I believe in God, but . . .

I don't think He micro-manages the world to the extent that many fundamentalists (maybe even more moderates as well) seem to believe. I don't think God micro-manages human reproduction--such as by causing or preventing STDs, for example--or even human health in general. We have brains to use to take care of ourselves.

OTOH, there is at least one Bible story in which God seems to perform a post-partum abortion: The child of David and Bath-sheba was struck down and killed because of David's adultery and murder. (2 Samuel 12:14-18)

[stopbush]

12. Actually, there are a number of places in the OT where god DEMANDS an abortion.

Check out Numbers 31 and Hosea 9. Pretty grim stuff.

In addition, both Leviticus and Numbers state clearly that fetuses and infants younger than one month old are not to be considered to be people.

The concept of "ensoulment" - that was quite the thing in the early church - held that the soul didn't enter the fetus until it was 90 days along in its development.

Of course, the fundies chuck all this because it doesn't serve their political goals.

[madrchsod]

13. it`s not really god...it`s this country`s shit health care system

it`s this country`s ignorance and poverty. god has`t anything to do with this country`s refusal to actually care for those who have less than others

[snagglepuss]

16. Health Care in Canada is great and I personally know at least 6 women who had miscarriages

Unless you are being facetious your argument doesn't hold. If life is in God's hands he took those lives not lack of health care.

[sandnsea]

14. Damn skippy, I've always said that

And we don't weep over menstrual cycles, when any one of them could contain a fertilized egg.

It's not the loss of the fetus that is the tragedy, it's that the woman is choosing to lose the fetus. God can choose, but the woman can't choose for herself. Ridiculous.

[Warren DeMontague]

17. If they really make no distinction between a fertilized egg & a baby, they should be freaking out

over insurance plans covering oral contraceptives.

I'm sure that's next.

[quaker bill]

19. Too late

already happening.

[Solomon]

21. I've been arguing this point for years. It makes religious people angry.

When I ask how come God can do it, they say, "well God can do anything he wants to do because he's God."

[pipi_k]

23. Ironic, isn't it...

God is the ultimate abortionist and when humans do it, it's wrong.

But when humans go totally against nature (God) and allow women to give birth to more children at one time than they were ever meant to, that's OK. Not only is it OK, it's praised as a "gift from God" even though human beings made it possible.

Hello? Disconnect here?

:eyes:

[cbdo2007]

25. Congrats - this may be the dumbest thing I've ever read!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

26. Comparing Miscarriage With Elective Abortion... Now THAT'S What I Call Persuasive!

Elective abortion is a natural part of evolution?

Wow. Your points are just too powerful...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[OneGrassRoot]

27. Can someone answer a quick question re: Rachel, The Family...

and those who voted FOR the Stupak Amendment.

I've seen a few threads that hint at this but haven't found the one which lays it out and can't peruse Rachel's website now to watch her show from last night either.

Are those Dems who voted for the Stupak Amendment all members of that Family?

Can anyone suggest just a couple of really good resources to learn more about that Family?

Thanks. :)

[WonderGrunion]

31. Look at Biblical examples alone

How many unborn children died at Sodom and Gomorrah? How many died from the Egyptian plagues? How many died from the great flood by not being on the ark? Old Testament God is an abortion machine.

[Cherchez la Femme]

33. When I was married

yes, once, long ago
...when I pushed back my desire for women deep into the closet...
(lost a few 'friends' when I came out, too; but who didn't?)

I lost 4 children via Act of God, 3

THREE

being ectopic pregnancies.
The first one I lost so much blood, internally, when they tried to take my blood pressure at the Dr.'s office nothing showed. The nurse asked me "Are you even alive?"

Every now and then I think of what their ages would be now...

I never would have aborted, but I don't presume to tell my sisters what they can or cannot do with their bodies and their lives.


Anyhow, in my experience all God has shown to be is either a vicious, violent, bloodthirsty megalomaniac who kills feti/fetuses (sp?) willy nilly while condoning his followers to murder adults who dare do the same;
or so distant and disinterested He (in this case can't conceive God is a She) can't be bothered with all us puny, temporary images of him.

Sorry about the :rant: