We created the socalled terrorist.

[Gman2]

When we labelled Hasan, a Muslim {a bad thing}, and told him he was a terrorist, over and over, and isolated him, as a nobody, he listened. He then went in search of who had clearly been aligned to him. He didnt know squat about Islam, on any deep level. He certainly didnt know anything about the agenda of real terrorists, in the middleeast. He was labelled, and scorned. And I'm sure he endured countless jabs of glass them sandni$$ers. WHere else is there to turn? He went to get unhitched, and they said NO. If you snitch, cuz of your ethnicity, you are likely dead. From hazing. On top of this, he has to go glass sandni%%ers. The double bind set up from this is likely too much, for many people. These are not excuses, just observations.

[msongs]

1. you say this as his personal friend of many years? or just making it up nt

[Gman2]

5. This is clearly available in the press.

[barb162]

101. No it isn't.. If it is, provide some links n/t

[ingac70]

2. He was a fucking shithead...

who went to medical school on the government dime, then whined when the military wouldn't let him out. He'd been trying to get of of serving since '01, right after med school.

My guess is he was sick of asking and was looking to get kicked out by contacting religious extremists. When that didn't work (because the gov. knew he did it LAST YEAR) he went on the shooting rampage.

[Gman2]

4. And the label of fucking shithead tells you exactly what?

In particular, to avoid other shitheads.

[Gman2]

13. And how do you utilize that info? Torture all muslims?

Stop them from having jobs? Make them go thru psych evals that noone else does? Take their homes and money, as they will likely give it to Bin Laden? go kick the living shit outta some Arab? Neighbor?

[ingac70]

67. I think you answered the wrong post. n/t

[barb162]

103. How do you utilize it other than making up bullshit / playing the violin

for a willful murderer.

[Gman2]

105. Again, the best thing you can do for the families, is to make sure it NEVER happens again.

[barb162]

102. You're being too kind to that fucking mass murderer. n/t

[Gman2]

108. My intention, is to be nice to the next set of mass murder targets, now not!

[barb162]

125. Then show some empathy for them, not the murderer. n/t

[Gman2]

127. That's another thread!

[barb162]

131. I'll await it. n/t

[bertman]

121. Ingac70, you apparently have forgotten the atmosphere after 9-11, 2001. The anti-muslim

feelings were running high and were being manifest in violent acts against muslims all over the nation. Is it a big surprise that a muslim, even a military doctor, would be very adversely affected by that?

Then, while this muslim doctor is doing his work he is constantly interviewing American soldiers who are telling him how FUCKED UP they have become from witnessing the horrific things that they and their fellow soldiers saw being done--mostly to muslims, but totally and completely in muslim countries. They are describing to him horrors that you and I and most people will NEVER witness. These soldiers were hurting to the depths of their beings and they were damaged by what they had done and seen. The doctor went through this on a regular basis. From what I have read, he tried to resign his commission and asked to pay back the money for his education. Regardless, he was not WHINING about it. He still did his job and continued to try to get out via the methods in place. Unfortunately he was unable to do so.

I don't excuse him in the least for the murders he committed. But I do recognize that he tried to get himself out of the environment that was raising his personal level of animus to the breaking point.

[Rebubula]

3. LOLZ at the excuses

You DO know that there are THOUSANDS of other Muslim men in the military that have NOT killed anyone?

[Gman2]

7. And I would like to keep it that way!

[ingac70]

73. So you are suggesting that all Muslims in our military...

have no qualms about killing their fellow soldiers?

[Gman2]

75. read again. I am saying that poking Muslims suspiciously

wont help now, and it didnt help then. This youre one of them shit, is in large part responsible. Fur us or agin us too. Cohesiveness, in the military is everything. Toi isolate this man and make him feel terribly other, and enemy, and unfriend is not a recipe for stable.

[TiredOldMan]

6. Great job of blaming the victims. This nut was a dirtbag and

followed the extreme part of Islam that supports killing anyone that is not a "believer". He made his own decisions and decided to kill people in cold blood. It is his fault and his choices.

[Gman2]

8. And I mentioned the blame for the victims WHERE?

[TiredOldMan]

12. You said WE in your post. WE the American people were

attacked. He didn't do this to attack those particular people in the processing line. He was attacking our country and our culture. That is what he hated. Not the particular people that happened to be in the room.

You are entitled to your opinion. I just think you are very wrong.

[Gman2]

15. YES WE, with our fucking petty Zenophobia.

[TiredOldMan]

22. So with your reasoning...

if you call somebody names and harass them it is understandable that they decided to kill you?

Sorry, but millions have gone through far worse than this guy that got a free education from the government and decided to kill innocent people anyway. 6 - 8 years in the military and he never was deployed to a combat environment. He was hardly traumatized.

[Gman2]

28. If MOST of our mass shootings were those bullied, would you GET A CLUE?

[TiredOldMan]

36. Yeah. I'm the one that needs to GET A CLUE. I guess you

are completely right that mass murderers are never responsible for their own actions. Thanks for the lesson.

You sit there cry for a killer while also typing ever BS rumor you can think of to disparage our military members. Enjoy living in YOUR pathetic world.

[Gman2]

39. Did IIIIIII say that? NO. Open your big stinkin moose ears.

[TiredOldMan]

44. Yes you did. And I like my big stinking moose ears!

Have a nice day.

[barb162]

107. Speak for yourself. You sure don't speak for me.

Try sympathizing with the 40 victims instead of a murderer.

And learn how to spell why you're at it. :)

[Gman2]

109. I dont give a rats ass about THAT shooter. Get it?

[barb162]

110. Check your opening post again. It's violin playing all the way for a murderer.

[Gman2]

112. Why might I ask questions about the shooter? Prurient interest?

Or to shortstop many more problems, about to erupt, in our overworked, spiritually drained military.

[barb162]

117. Ask yourself if he self-radicalized himself after he got his education

and BIG salary on the US dime. And overworked people don't go around doing mass murders, so get off of it already with that line of thinking.

[Gman2]

120. Tell me what you have learned from him, and how you will deal with like weak individuals, in the

military that are about to snap?

[sinkingfeeling]

10. And you know Hasan followed the extreme part of Islam because you're a good friend of his?

[Gman2]

16. I said he was an ignoramous, that went in search of his assumed buddies.

HE had no interest in radical Islam. Those were his family, said everyone.

[barb162]

168. see post 167 Why was he contacting radical Muslims?

[barb162]

172. He certainly did have great interest in radical Islam, see WashPost for his writing.

Quit excusing his behavior.

[barb162]

167. It was clearly reported he was contacting radicals. n/t

[Gman2]

176. He tried real hard. They laughed at him.

Cmon, just cuz someone wants to be Hitler, doesnt make it so. He is pathetic. He is a loser. he should have been treated more humanely. When it would matter. Now it is too damn late.

[redqueen]

9. This is sarcasm,

right?

:wtf:

[Gman2]

17. NOPE, It is trying to stop the next one.

[redqueen]

23. You've gotta be shitting me.

Yeah, good luck with protecting the mentally unhinged from anyone who might possibly ever tease or torment them.

[Gman2]

29. Taht teasing and hazing is endemic, in military service.

[SIMPLYB1980]

26. No you are not you are using this to set up your attack for

when the next one eventually happens.

[SIMPLYB1980]

11. Bullshit that fucker created himself.

:eyes:

[Gman2]

18. Do you assume all your choices are volitional?

Were you in many environments, YOU would choose far differently than you do.

[SIMPLYB1980]

24. I've read enough to know what he did.

It's obvious he turned himself into what he was.

[mule_train]

14. just shows how unfair the draft is, conscripting people into wars they dont believe in

why wasnt he given a conciencious objector status

oh wait, i forgot HE ENLISTED VOLUNTARILY!!!

how could he have forseen that the middle east could be a trouble spot?

[Gman2]

21. Folks, this is why I advise AGAINST military service, they own your soul.

And how do you KNOW that you still will believe in killing people as the way to affect world change, YEARS from now?

[SIMPLYB1980]

30. You don't understand much about the military then.

[Gman2]

32. Then put me on your knee, and tell me.

[mule_train]

59. I have always understood, that if you join the miliatry, you might have to kill someone you feel

doesnt deserve it

not saying i wouldnt join and fight under the right circumstances, there are such things as 'just wars'

but, most of the wars we've been in are neither just nor necessary

[Xenotime]

19. I'm amazed at the anger towards another suffering human on the forum...

You all are supposed to be progressives.

[redqueen]

27. Yeah, something about taking innocent lives

tends to upset people.

You are aware that the people posting here are humans, too, right? :eyes:

[barb162]

169. Are you referring to the dead soldiers' families by any chance? n/t

[JonQ]

20. So if someone tells me I'm a surgeon over and over again

it will come true?

Sweet.

Also, who is to blame for timothy mcveigh and other domestic terrorists?

I mean, no one ever makes the decision to become a terrorist on their own, they are always forced in to it by teasing.

[Gman2]

25. Are you aware, that our precious littel boys, in boot camp, are

told about using your bayonett, to rattle around the head of your enemy, to clear a hole, for SKULL FUCKING YOUR ENEMY? And how that has been sandni%%er, for years now?

[SIMPLYB1980]

33. My goodness the stupid is strong with this one.

:puke:

[Gman2]

35. I have heard this verbatim, form three soldiers. from boot.

[SIMPLYB1980]

38. So you say.

:eyes:

[Gman2]

40. And try to tell me you have not!

[SIMPLYB1980]

45. I have not. They are trained to fight.

Not "skull fuck" people. Besides I'm sure in a battle there is little time to think a bout skull fuckery.

[Gman2]

47. IT is the imagery, and the sentiment, that is toxic! DUH!

[SIMPLYB1980]

52. Yawn.

:boring:

[JonQ]

56. Oh my god, they are teaching violence in the army now?!?!?!

Well I never.

Back in the good ol' days (before islamic terrorism) no one was ever verbally abused in the military, and violence was forbidden.

In fact it was mostly a place to talk about your feelings, get a makeover and have pillowfights.

[Gman2]

58. It is SUPPOSED TO BE a professional organization!

[JonQ]

65. Dedicated to what exactly?

If not training people how to kill on command?

[Gman2]

66. I guess you give slack, for certain orgs., like WALL STREET?

[JonQ]

69. So wall street made him do it?

Interesting. Stick with that.

[Gman2]

70. Um, no, that was in response to your,"boys will be killers" comment.

[JonQ]

71. Oh I said that?

Cool, where?

[Gman2]

72. Your reply to my thinking the military a pro outfit, was to allow them any depravity, cuz theyz kill

killaz.

[JonQ]

81. No I said the military trains people how to kill

in response to your complaint that they are being taught to use bayonets to kill (what did you suppose they were for?).

They are also trained when to, and when not to, kill. And I can't think of any incident when our military has been taught to kill american soldiers on base.

[Gman2]

82. Um, no, I was talking about using them to SKULL FUCK THEIR ENEMY!

Or Hagee's, whatever!

[JonQ]

83. Well I'm sure if anyone told me that I would have no choice

but to indiscriminately kill everyone around me.

[Gman2]

84. Um, that doesnt sound very professional.

[JonQ]

85. No, being a terrorist and indiscriminately shooting fellow soldiers

is not professional. It seems he was a bad soldier.

[Gman2]

86. Let's punish him!

[JonQ]

87. I suspect he will be

first interogated, then tried, then sentenced, death penalty seems likely.

[rockymountaindem]

122. Do you realize you're barely coherent?

[Gman2]

124. Which part?

[rockymountaindem]

145. This poor spelling, the run-on sentence, and your generally flimsy argument.

[Gman2]

147. Oh, everything but the ideas! Right.

[barb162]

170. I would argue with that word "barely"

:)

[mamaleah]

31. Again, if this guy were a right wing Christian militia member would you be singing the same tune?

Or does your compassion only extend to certain people?

[Gman2]

34. Yes, I would. The environment we find ourswelves in, is toxic.

Look at how frequent the whacko's are becoming. And in that instant, I would rail against the labelling of the far right, to influence the whacko.

[mamaleah]

42. Plenty of people grow up in toxic environments and do not murder others.

Plenty of folks are abused, bullied beyond imagination, shut out, or emotionally destroyed by society and yet they somehow manage to not murder other people.

[Gman2]

46. So, let's ratchet up the hate till we hit the sweet spot!

[mamaleah]

50. Nice cop out.

You cannot accept that you are failing, so "ratchet up the hate".

Well done.

Yes, I hate murdering SOBs.

[cali]

53. point me to your posts on Scott Roeder or whatever that murderous fuckwad's

name is.

[Gman2]

37. Pretty let down, at the inability, to think outside the winger box.

[SIMPLYB1980]

43. Pretty let down that you can't see that you are a winger

as much as any republican.

[JonQ]

57. Blaming an adult for his actions is inside "the winger box"

Well, alright then.

What could I say to you that would force you against your will to kill a dozen or so innocent people?

[barb162]

171. I'm pretty let down by your sympathy for mass murderers. n/t

[cali]

41. your idiot op is so fucking insulting to Muslims it;s sickening. and sick.

and your moron post is filled with speculation and zip evidence for your shit.

[Gman2]

49. Point out my errors of fact!

[cali]

61. Your OP, genius, is fucking fact free.

[Gman2]

62. Then show how labelling theory is stupid. Or environment not being a factor in vulnerable

populations. Or how Hasan didnt care about his extreme hazing. Or ?

[cali]

48. We created Scott Roeder. By legalizing the murder of babies

we forced him to kill Dr. Tiller.

No more disgusting and stupid than the pile of stinking dogshit you just posted.

[Gman2]

51. We created Scott Roeder, by allowing the society, to label

willynilly, without any basis in fact. They call our docs murderers. Then, the unstable act on our/their hyperbole!

[mamaleah]

54. LOL!

Wow, that will ge tthe blood pressure up around here. I hope you have a crash cart handy!

[Igel]

55. Don't give yourself so much credit.

Or, rather, don't give those that you don't like anyway all the credit for creating a monster.

Most monsters do it to themselves; the best than can be said is that they should have found a way to qualify for the Darwin award before creating problems for others. Thankfully, many do.

Lots of people undergo the same horrible treatment--hearing that we can't rush to judgment, that their religion is a religion of peace, saying how valued they are by those in power--only to find themselves completely unaffected by it. Many others actually go most of their lives hearing that they're bad and evil and yet find communities that they value that say they're not bad--it's a question of who to believe. By and large, our peer groups exert far more influence than those outside our peer groups do, providing handy frames for interpreting what's happening to us and how to respond.

The quirky church I was in was downright paranoid (as are more than a few of the Muslims I've met--for all the same reasons, by the way) and yet was fairly pacifist--if there's any retribution it'll be done by God at a time of his choosing, and we are specifically prohibited from retribution. Believing themselves to be persecuted was part of their schtick, for the most part, yet within the community they managed to maintain their self-esteem. They valued the opinion of their peers more than the opinion of non-peers. Then again, they believed that it was nearly a badge of honor to be deemed of no importance by "the world", that was their lot in life. No prosperity gospel for them, no delusions that God granted them the status of "best people" in this world and guaranteed them any sort of secular victory. In other words, they had a convenient out for any inadequacy and for their paranoia, so that those who were paranoid could be comforted by the self-imposed delusions instead of becoming a problem while those who didn't feel paranoid weren't a problem in search of a solution. In "my" church to believe otherwise would result in your being forced out--you'd simply leave or be uninvited. In extreme cases they'd be advised to get help. Of course, it encouraged a particular kind of mental illness--one that wallowed in helplessness and, at times, exalted feelings of inadequacy and low self-esteem. You could elevate your petty grievances to the rank of world-class offenses, and yet be told that suffering them makes you worth more. Thankfully, few opted for such self-aggrandizement.

In cases of actual persecution most in the peer group were aware enough to point out that had the persecuted not made a big deal of his religion and hit other people over the head with it the persecution wouldn't have happened. Most also were clear-headed enough to point out that much of the "persecution" wasn't because of religion but because the "persecuted" was simply last hired, incompetent, or clueless. And all were consistent enough to loudly execrate any retribution.

Not all religions or congregations can handle their mentally ill in such a quiet manner or validate only those mental illnesses that pose little harm to others. Nor do they believe that random events accounts for most of what we perceive as persecution. And many try not to execrate acts of their own, lest it bring moral condemnation upon themselves. I personally like execrating the execrable--it tends to remove the moral ambiguity that a lot of people tend to like, especially when it protects themselves. Only after seeking to understand what actually happened, of course. This often leads to my execrating the victim, who, after all, still had a choice in what he did. It's not as though society reduced him to an automaton and instructed him to kill more of its members. Let's allow Hasan, even though he's "a Muslim (a bad thing)," at least that much human dignity, let's to not strip him of responsibility for his acts until it's clear that he really is just so mentally incompetent that it's amazing he could brush his own teeth without getting his toothbrush stuck in his sinus cavities.

Some in Hasan's peer group considered what he did to be completely in keeping with Islam, and judged him if not a hero at least still a good person. Those in such peer networks should be found, and any secondary blame properly placed on said peers. Those who try to blame people outside those networks simply facilitate those networks, whether they're of similar religious attitudes or not. In this case, those who most severely wronged Hasan were his peers, not non-Muslims in the Army and the Killeen community, but his co-religionists, whether Aulaqi and other online vermin or members of his local mosque and community; those next in line were those who found ways to turn a blind eye to his problems, but their guilt is greatly attenuated, the difference between stabbing a man and not providing first aid. Only then do you get to the idiot who keyed his car--an idiot who more properly could be viewed as suffering from PTSD and yet did the unthinkably heinous act of vandalism, yet who apparently cannot be excused or understood because, well, he's an Islamophobe and therefore pre-execrated. Meanwhile, the premeditated killing of 13 people finds people struggling to not just understand but to even somehow justify it in ways that condemn those who they want to condemn for other reasons.

The entire discussion strikes me as silly if it weren't so widespread as we struggle to place blame where we are accustomed to blaming it while seeking to avoid being tainted by being called a word that arguably doesn't apply.

[Gman2]

60. So, imprison any blacks, that thought OJ gettin off was just trunabout, at long last?

You seem to be legitimizing Minority report. Yes, many survive the slings and arrows of haters. Some do not. So, the best way to deal with this is to say, FUCK THAT STUPID ROTTEN EVIL SOB. Or do we analyze what we have created? And see how those vulnerable to hurting others can best not! And saying round them all up is ...you know!

[SIMPLYB1980]

63. Just wow.

[woo me with science]

64. ...

:puke:

[Gman2]

68. And? How do you suppose we lessen the murderous attacks?

[EFerrari]

74. Yep. And as Amy reported this morning, he told a roomful of physicians

that Muslims who request it should be released as COs so they wouldn't have to fight other Muslims.

Nobody listened to him. Not other doctors, not other psychiatrists, not his superiors.

What he did was horrible and it can happen again today because our military is broken and no one is paying attention.

[barb162]

76. Who told him he was a terrorist over and over? Get some facts!

2. Who "isolated him, as a nobody" again?
link please.

He was a highly paid MD MAJOR and majors usually don't get hazed. Some people didn't agree with his terrorist views so he had to go out and kill people?

3. "He didnt know squat about Islam"

Oh? link please. He went to the mosque how often for how many years? WHy would anyone go to a mosque over years if they knew nothing about Islam? Was he totally stupid? Do you go to Buddhist temples for years and know nothing about Buddhism and you're not Buddhist?????

4. "And I'm sure he endured countless jabs of glass them sandni$$ers."
link please.


The rest of this is total hogwash too.
Hazing is a cause of being a mass murderer? For whom? Twelve year old psycopath imbeciles? Or terrorists?

[Gman2]

78. in order

1. There are so many young bucks yelling to glass them sand ni%%ers amongst the troops, it must be like water.

2. His relatives have spoken of his being taunted as a muslim. That he didnt have any friends, among his fellow soldiers.

3. In any deep sense. He was thought a yahoo, or whatever, by the local Islam dude. His crap was incoherent, so they decided against allowing him to start a chapter, on base. He blindly reached out, to real terrorists. Likely got on radar immediately. He was told those were HIS PEOPLE. He didnt have any here. they didnt like him.

You can call it hogwash, and poopoo it as CAUSE OF HIS BEING. There are many about to snap, in the military. Do we listen now, or just yell at them that they are FUCKING STUPID WEAK ASS FOOLS ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC.

[barb162]

98. Oh puhleeze. Why don't you spend some time sympathizing with the soldiers' families

instead of sympathizing with this terrorist. And quit playing the violin for that terrorist. Somebody hazes him and he has to shoot 40 innocent people? He created himself. He radicalized himself.

[Gman2]

104. What is the best thing you can do for those families? Make sure it never happens again.

I really dont give a rats ass about the shooter. It is about all those others, on the edge. I dont want them too, to up the body count.

[cherokeeprogressive]

77. What you mean "We", Kimosabe?

[Gman2]

79. It's time we look at we. It hurts less than bullets.

[Cali_Democrat]

80. We, the USA

The constant bashing of muslims and arabs in this country is out of control. We can't treat folks like second class citizens and expect there not to be a backlash. Muslim Americans see it in the media, in schools, in the military....EVERYWHERE.

Just like we can't bomb the middle east for decades and expect that nobody will attack us.

It is what it is.

[JonQ]

88. So distrust of muslims following 911 is what prompted 911?

[Cali_Democrat]

89. No...bombing the middle east for decades caused 9/11.

[JonQ]

90. We never bombed saudi arabia, or egypt

defended them in fact.

And that is where most terrorists on 911 came from.

[Cali_Democrat]

96. We've attacked Iraq, Lebanon, Iranian ships, Libya.....probably more

The terrorists were driven by the fact that the USA has been meddling in the affairs of muslim countries for a LONG time.

Ever wonder why the middle eastern terrorists never attacked Brazil on 9/11?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

[wayoutthere]

115. Yes,

[The Straight Story]

91. People on DU tell me that as a christian I am evil and want to do harm to others a lot

So if I go out and do so it is the fault of people on the left?

[Dr. Strange]

94. QED

Which is Latin for "It was posted in GD, and therefore it's truth."

[Gman2]

95. People that tell you that may go fuck themselves. Dont that make you feel bettah?

[barb162]

100. Now don't talk sense or anything!

:)

:hi:

Seriously, there's way too much Christian bashing around here, friend.

[yodoobo]

92. You must have a mouse in your pocket.

Because this "we" does not include me.

[Gman2]

93. Course not. It's just all the rest of us, with human nature.

[pecwae]

97. The observations in this post

are so full of bullshit there's no place to start. Maybe you should just ask the Mods to delete it.

[Gman2]

106. EVERY piece of my composite, is from the press. And not disputed.

[superduperfarleft]

99. Nah, he just hates us for our freedoms.

I read it on DU.

[cali]

111. Really? Thought not.

How about he's just sick in the head.

[superduperfarleft]

113. Some of us are more curious than others, dear.

It's okay, really. I didn't mean to disparage in any way the incurious among us.

[cali]

114. some of you are more simple and think in 2 dimensions, honeybunch

One can both be curious about what led to this mass murderer's slaughter and recognize that such actions are the products of a sick human being. duh.

[superduperfarleft]

162. Which is what the OP, admittedly, indelicately, is attempting to do.

It's your crowd who shouts him down screaming ZOMG HOW CAN YOU DEFEND HIM???!!!!11 when he tries it.

[Gman2]

166. We dont have much time, for delicate lessons.

[LostInAnomie]

116. What!? Are you just making shit up and hoping something sticks?

No one but RW idiots were saying being a Muslim was a bad thing, and no one told him he was a terrorist. Laying the blame on the US as a whole is idiotic.

"He didnt know squat about Islam, on any deep level."

He is a life long Muslim. I'm sure he has a pretty good understanding of it.

"He certainly didnt know anything about the agenda of real terrorists, in the middleeast." vs "He then went in search of who had clearly been aligned to him."

Can you not see the obvious contradiction in those statements?



Stop trying to excuse this idiot.

[Gman2]

119. The guy was a loser. He didnt fit. He was in a double bind.

We agree so far?

[LostInAnomie]

134. How was he a loser?

He had a Ph.D and a promising career.

He didn't fit because of his ridiculous and extreme religious views. It wasn't because other alienated him. He alienated others through apologetics for violent extremism, and long rants about Islam and how immoral US forces are.

No one forced him to do anything.

[Gman2]

139. He went to the mosque, asking them to set him up!

That is a loser. He constantly pined away, for a wife. He couldnt connect with regular americans, cuz they hated Muslims for a season. He didnt know many of his kind. The head Mosque dude thought him incoherent, where the Koran was concerned. He didnt fit anywhere. And noone accepted him. That is a loser.

[LostInAnomie]

154. What!? You are really twisting to make excuses for the guy.

"He couldnt connect with regular americans, cuz they hated Muslims for a season."

Bullshit. Americans do not hate Muslims. Since he grew up in America, I'm sure he didn't have too much trouble connecting with Americans.

"He didnt know many of his kind."

Once again, he is a life long Muslim, and was attending a mosque. Plenty of Muslims to meet there.

What you are attempting to do is blame his own personality flaws on America. It's apologist bullshit and from the looks of this thread no one is buying it.

[Gman2]

155. Identify the first excuse I made for the shooter!

[LostInAnomie]

156. Look at your own thread title.

[Gman2]

157. None of those are intended to excuse the shooter. None.

[LostInAnomie]

158. Right... You create a thread titled "We created the socalled terrorist."

Followed by a list of ridiculous and implausible ways we are responsible for Hasan turning into a terrorist. You ended your paragraph with "The double bind set up from this is likely too much, for many people.". You also neglected to list any ways in which Hasan was personally responsible for his own actions.

And, somehow we are supposed to believe you aren't making excuses.

[Gman2]

159. If there wee twenty more in the pipeline, wouldja care?

[Gman2]

160. Oh, and they are using tireirons on priests now.

[LostInAnomie]

161. What the hell are you even talking about?

"they are using tire irons on priests now"?

I know my first move wouldn't be to try to blame America for it.

[Gman2]

164. Old guy thought priest asking for help, was terrorist, tireiron was used on head.

[barb162]

118. He created himself. And quit making excuses for a mass murderer.

[Gman2]

123. When the prosecutor develops motive, do you scream apologist?

That is idiotic!

[barb162]

128. When the prosecutors talk motive, maybe they'll look

at the murderer yelling 'Allahu akbar'as he was shooting. Maybe they'll look at his contact with jihadists too. Ya think? :eyes:

[Gman2]

132. You might consider that it wasnt said. For real!

[barb162]

136. Too many soldiers said it happened. You got something to refute that?

"I was sitting in about the second row back when the assailant stood up and yelled 'Allahu akbar' in Arabic and he opened fire," Foster said Monday on CNN's "American Morning."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/09/fort.hood.foster/

[Gman2]

141. Yes, and if I was so distraught, that I shot all of you, I might say, God help me!

[barb162]

143. Being distraught means you get to mass murder? Horseshit upon horseshit.

[Gman2]

144. NO, it means you might utter something religious.

[Gman2]

146. Be analytical, not emotional.

[barb162]

152. I'm glad you posted that to yourself so you can take your own advice.

nice :)

[barb162]

151. Oooohhhh, that's REALLY deep. WOW. How about meeting with radicals clerics?

Did he talk to or email radical clerics or would you like to deny that too?

[Gman2]

153. Dude/Chick, they laughed at him, he was a loser.

[barb162]

163. Dude/chick, he was a murdering loser with no justification for what he did.

[Gman2]

165. That much we agree on!

[barb162]

173. He was a radical Islamist too, See his writings in the Wash Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/09/AR2009110903618.html

[Starbucks Anarchist]

126. No, he created himself.

He's not the only person in America to encounter racism, and 99% of those people don't go around killing innocents.

[Gman2]

130. SOOOOO, it's useless to determine why 1% of our population wants to murder all of us?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

133. It's useless to blame ourselves for this idiot's actions.

There have always been violent nutjobs around us, and they will use whatever excuse they can -- racism, money, etc.

[barb162]

138. Got any links for that 1% figure or do you pull this stuff out of your ass

like all the shit in your opening post.

[Gman2]

142. Straight from Starbuck Anarchist. This is debate after all.

[slutticus]

129. Shit! I accidentally pressed rec instead of unrec. Mods, can I have it back please?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

135. I unrecc'd for you.

:toast:

[slutticus]

140. danke

:toast:

[TicketyBoo]

137. Oh, geez!

Love all the Muslims.

Nobody is a terrorist.

There never was a World Trade Center.

I CANNOT believe the insensitivity that happens in the name of "political correctness" here.

Rehabilitate the murderer because he is a "poor Muslim" and let him go.

Do you realize how prejudiced that actually is? The man did the crime; let him do the time. There is no "explanation" for this without attempting to make excuses.

Others face similar persecution every day, and they don't go out and murder people.

It's like explaining why a meth addict is a meth addict when others face similar circumstances and are productive citizens. Personal responsibility is key.

[Gman2]

149. I never said a damn word of any of that!

[rucky]

148. There's some sociology to back this

Check prison recidivism studies & labeling theory. Also analysis of the tracking system in education. The famous brown eyes/blue eyes study, of course.

This would be an extreme case but labeling may be a contributor - at least helped him self-justify, maybe?

[Gman2]

150. Check sociological studies where subjects were convinced the sky is green.

According to your feedback from others, you could LOSE IT!

[DemBones DemBones]

174. Bullshit. He was raised a Muslim so he was 'labeled' by his parents, not by "us."

And you are making excuses, not observations. Let's look at facts.

Hasan chose to enlist in the Army, over his parents' objections. After serving a few years, he applied to go to med school on the Army's dime, came out an M.D. and a major, with good pay and benefits. He owed the Army a few years of service, after which he could have gone into private practice without student loans to pay off.

There is no evidence he was discriminated against for being Muslim. In fact, classmates and fellow officers held back about reporting troubling facts about Hasan because they didn't want to be seen as anti-Muslim. At least one person did talk and write to superiors about his concerns about Hasan but was ignored.

Hasan argued that Muslims should be allowed to leave the military as conscientious objectors, rather than fight against other Muslims, but objecting to specific wars is not how conscientious objection has ever been defined. COs have to object to all wars and be willing to do non-combat alternative duty or time in prison.

If Hasan was bright enough to get through med school, he should have been bright enough to understand Army rules. He might have been given a dishonorable discharge if he refused to deploy to Afghanistan. He could also have faked a psychiatric disorder and gotten a medical discharge. Instead, he killed and wounded as many soldiers and cops as he could.

[Gman2]

175. You can talk all day about how it SHOULD BE, doesnt make it so.

He should have done this, he should have thought that. Where does that get us? Nowhere. You need to get in HIS head, not your own.