IRONY DEFINED -- Press, Lies and Videotape

[Zhade]

By now, it's an undeniable demonstrable fact that Obama lied to us about never having campaigned on a public option (aka a public plan/public health insurance option/etc). Those who ignore the press videos where he clearly campaigns on a PO are in deep denial and deluding themselves. What I find really interesting, though, is how some of the deniers -- in their zeal to keep their fever-dream of Obama's now-obliterated honesty intact -- are guilty of rank hypocrisy.

Remember Tuzla? Clinton's Waterloo, the lie that turned off many would-be supporters and bolstered Obama's numbers? Also proven to be a lie by videotape (of nonexistent snipers).

Some hardcore Obama supporters who now deny the fact that video proves Obama lied when he said he never campaigned on a PO were quick to point out how incontrovertible video evidence proved Clinton lied about Tuzla. And they were right to do so. Yet now they deny the very kind of evidence that they once accepted as damning Clinton's claim of dodging sniper fire.

This hints at a deep-seated ability and even willingness to lie to oneself by denying the lies of one's chosen leader. And it's disturbing. It's indicative of the same type of mindset that lets some people STILL support b*s*'s lies while in office.

Am I the only one who finds this ironic?

[AllentownJake]

1. I find the mandate thing more troubling

As it was an actual policy debate, and that is how we are supposed to select these individuals, but as someone who said mean things to Hillary supporters over the incident, I apologize.

[Zhade]

2. Oh, it's troubling, no doubt. He's a liar, and I didn't vote for a liar.

Or, I didn't think I did.

I can almost forgive him the mandate thing, on the basis that it's POSSIBLE he changed his mind. But his lie about never having campaigned on the PO is such a blatant, brazen untruth so easily debunked with three minutes on Youtube that it astounds me to think he considers us that stupid.

[AllentownJake]

3. Remember him threatning bankruptcy if HCR didn't pass a week before the vote

Yes, he thinks we are that stupid and some of us are.

[Zhade]

4. I know I'm not -- I won't be voting for him again.

I don't knowingly reward liars. EVER.

[AllentownJake]

6. He has a primary opponent I'll vote for the opponent

Even if it is a token as a protest, General Election, I'll vote for him unless there is a tectonic shift in American politics and you have a 3 way race or 4 way race with contenders that all have a shot. Than I'll have to do some thinking.

[Zhade]

10. I understand your pragmatism. I don't share it, but I get it.

NT!

[AllentownJake]

13. If it is GOP vs. Democrat

You have the choice between two awful corporate suck-up assholes. One is a meaner and tries to use God to justify their actions. The other will try to do good things as long as it doesn't piss off their donors or ruin their future career prospects when they leave politics.

The guy said he was different, he isn't, lesson learned. Nobody will be able to play that card again with 4 years of national life exposure.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

15. so, who are you going to voe for, a Republican? How'd we get into this BIG mess anyhow?

seems like it was a Republican fiasco to me; GWB Jr. style. Lets talk about his Stalin-stlye approach to lying - THE BIG LIE approach.

[Zhade]

21. Probably won't vote unless there's a decent challenger.

If you want to compare obama and b*s* on lies, I readily concede that the latter was way more obvious. But it's a difference in degree, not kind.

[varelse]

5. You are not the only one

However, I do not label someone a liar based on the fact that he or she has lied once. I would need to see a pattern of behaviour before I would be comfortable with that judgement, and I have not seen that with our President.

[AllentownJake]

7. It's starting to develop

and there is beginning to be a narrative. I'll cut him slack on that interview, but I trust very few things the administration has to say about a lot of things, and their assertions on what the positive effect will be.

[HughMoran]

18. pattern of behavior. credibility

All I will say to you and the other one is that ad hominem attacks are not allowed here, or we'd have an awful lot to talk about.

[AllentownJake]

22. Hugh, I'm starting to get a little sick of your chest beating

I think your spending too much time in the bomb shelter and not enough time in the real world. Cutting him some slack on one interview and than saying there is a pattern developing of serial exaggeration is not really an ad hominem attack, it is an observation.

[HughMoran]

24. I think you're realizing that I make good points

...and you just don't want to hear it any more. Besides, you missed my point. I was clearly referencing the obvious fact that those who always find fault with a particular person (i.e. Obama) will tend to be seen as having a strong bias on the topic. This bias leads to an "I see they posted & I can be 100% sure what they said". That situation is frequently described as "lacking credibility" WRT said person (Obama). I'm not the one beating my chest - I'm pointing out some basic facts. When one is predisposed to find fault, it will inevitably be found.

[Zhade]

26. Videotape doesn't lie -- unlike both Obama and Clinton.

I don't cut liars any slack. Sorry if you see that as bias.

[HughMoran]

29. Like I said, beat that horse - beat it good. Beat it to death

It's not like your opinions are unknown to me - you are predisposed to find and pour salt on the wounds inflicted on said pol. Enjoy! Don't let a little criticism slow you down. Bash 'till your little heart is content.

[Zhade]

30. You call it beating a dead horse. I don't see the issue as dead.

Telling the truth about another's lies isn't bashing.

Thanks for continuing to kick the thread, though. : )

[HughMoran]

32. Kick!

Obama's ass up and down the street if it makes you happy. Cut out every friend from your life who ever tells a lie of any sort - you're in control. Feel the power - it's good.

[AllentownJake]

27. On the flip side when one is looking for success they will find it

I am not an optimist nor am I a pessimist, I give this President a C- this year. Considering that the last President gets an F for every year it is an improvement, but don't tell me we have made the honor roll.

I give the President credit when credit is due, I have gone on the record with one poster who is angry about Hamsher, yesterday that if no evidence is produced concerning Rahm and fraud at Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac that her postings should be banned from DU and I will email the administrators petitioning that fact.

I'm never going to be in the bomb shelter but certain people's hate for me is mind boggling.

[HughMoran]

31. Agree with your subject line.

If you go back and re-read the thread I posted on the PO topic, you'll see that I conceded a certain amount of 'truth stretching' had occurred based on the party platform document. As you stated to the O/P (& I will rephrase) - if you ever find a politician who doesn't lie/exaggerate/play politics, let me know - I'll worship at his alter. Of course if said politician is 4 feet tall and is an introvert, it may not be a worthwhile effort. And yes, you have your good days and your bad days, but you DO listen to reasonable arguments and are only occasionally disingenuous when you're pissed off. Am I any better? Probably not. Will I ever stop 'taking you on' when I see you pushing the limits unreasonably (IMO) in one direction? Never. This is why political forums exist IMO - to get to a reasonable understanding and credible position on the important issues.

[AllentownJake]

34. I think I was reasonable here

Like I said, the mandate provision flip is one I was more concerned about, because it was a major focal point of a democratic primary, and therefore such policy reversals should not be taken lightly as people voted for one person over the other on that issue.

Him being stupid in a Washington Post interview and a 60 minutes interview will hopefully clear up after he's gotten some sun this week. I'm guessing he's under a little bit of pressure, particularly based on some other things I've been reading on my economic sites but am not posting here, because I think it is too speculative at the moment.

[HughMoran]

35. On the latter issue, I'm supportive as you know

I've always felt deep inside that these plans cannot work without very strong incentives for people to participate. If healthy young people don't sign up because they don't feel like they have any assets to lose and are 'strong as an ox', then the system WILL fail IMO. Just as Medicare would fail within no time if young workers stopped paying. Medicare already has issues due to the baby-boomer generation. He made the right decision after looking at the facts - this is actually a strength in my opinion. You can't believe that he changed his mind on this without any contemplation.

[AllentownJake]

36. His mind changed rather quickly

:shrug:

I think the court is going to kill it, so I'm not that worried at the moment. It is rather unprecedented to force people to enter into a contract with a third party by threat of the government when you've made no active choice in the matter of whether to engage in any voluntary behavior other than being alive.

Quite the expansion of federal powers, the Supremes will be interesting on this one.

[HughMoran]

37. I wasn't there

I'm not going to pretend I know how fast he changed his mind. He says he's a contemplative person, and people who know him well say the same. I choose to believe that he didn't change his mind on mandates without first carefully considering the alternatives. If your scenario is indeed borne out, it may force the government into a bigger role WRT providing services. In the end, expanding Medicare may be the alternative that wins in this situation. Not sure how young people would be brought into the fold, but no universal coverage allows only participation of the most needy - clearly this is not viable. Those wanting FREE care (other posts today) clearly have a massive disconnect when it comes to taxation and why this country was formed in the first place.

[AllentownJake]

38. Yes the one economic site I read is convinced the bill is a back door to single payer

A chess move where they get insurance to buy in with the mandates, the court overturns them 9-0 because there is nothing in the constitution that says you can do it, insurance companies go out of business due to the new rules in the bill and single payer is the only alternative in 8 years for either a GOP or DNC administration.

[HughMoran]

39. That's a little 'out there' at this point, but not beyond the pale IMO.

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

[AllentownJake]

40. If he Shock Doctorines Aetna and Cigna

I may have to see if I can join you in the bomb shelter.

:rofl:

Like I said I take the opinion with a grain of salt.

[PufPuf23]

45. You seldom make good points and seem asleep.

What has happened with Obama is sad and will have repercussions with idealists, esp the young.

There has been a military expansion beyond Iraq and AfPak in Africa and Latin America.
Privatization of public education and erosion of medicare and social security are in sight.

Environmental policies are under the radar but he is achieving in Agriculture (timber harvest from National Forests) what GWB proposed and by and large did not achieve. I live within a western Spotted Owl NF and the largest timber sale since 1989 occurred on the RD where I live on an inholding. The processing facilities do not exist locally any more and the initial sale did not receive a bid so it was re-bid as a service contract eg is USFS is paying for the logging and receives no pay. This same timber sale would have grossed $1.8 million at the beginning of Reagan's first term was given away to meet a 2009 target. This NF is hiring 18 new professional in support of an expanded timber sale program.

I voted, campaigned, and gave $ and for the 1st time in my nearly 60s years had a candidate win that wasn't perceived as the lesser of bad choices. So yes I am sad about Obama and hope for a better future. Saccharine over substance I expect from politics but a steady diet is troubling.

[Zhade]

8. I'll concede that mostly he's dealt in broken promises, rather than outright lies.

But this one -- this is undeniable, and I will never support anyone who willfully lies.

My son's future is too important to allow myself to be swayed by pretty, but empty, words.

[AllentownJake]

11. More like a serial exaggerator

The positive effects of policies are exaggerated to sell them, than after they have been implemented resu;ts exaggereated. The negative effects are ignored as are the unintended consequences. He gets away with it, with good inspiring speeches, but people are growing wary of his move, so he'll have to learn another one.

[sendero]

9. You haven't been looking.

... very hard. If campaign promises have any meaning at all, then he's either changed his mind on a whole lot of stuff or he's a liar.

[Zhade]

12. A broken promise is a lie, if the person promising has the power to fulfill the promise.

For example -- ending DADT. Closing Gitmo. Upholding the rule of law.

Actually, now that I think about it, he HAS lied a lot.

Fucking bastard.

[sendero]

16. I would accept..

.. if the person TRIED to fulfill his promise as good enough. Obama has not even tried.

[HughMoran]

14. Beat this one for all it's worth my friend - beat it good.

Irony? You don't even wanna go there...

[Zhade]

20. I hate liars. Sue me.

NT!

[AllentownJake]

23. You probably shouldn't vote or pay attention to any politics.

[HughMoran]

25. Now we're talkin'

Hear! Hear!

[Zhade]

28. LOL, all too true.

And yet, how sad a commentary is that? We expect it, even while there are a handful of decent honest pols out there.

The system is so broken, we've gotten use to the manipulation.

[WilliamPitt]

33. Yeah, reacting to disappointment has never made a difference in politics.

Participation is for suckers and automatons, and expectations are just silly.

...pzzzzzcheeeeezzzz...

[WilliamPitt]

17. This note's for you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7308088&mesg_id=7308088

K&R.

[Zhade]

19. I'm all over that thread, which started with an excellent OP.

NT!

[ProSense]

41. "Remember Tuzla? Clinton's Waterloo" Yeah, the fabriacation kept alive for more than a decade?

Obama's platform didn't include a logo that said: public option or bust.

He said he didn't campaign on a public option. He's right, and he stated it much better in this
PBS interview.

Fact is, it was included as part of his campaign to reform the health care system, but it was not the major focus of his platform.


Trying to compare this to the sniper fire lie is ludicrous.

[AllentownJake]

42. Sniper Fire Fail

[ProSense]

43. Yes, it did. n/t

[pnorman]

44. "There's not a dime's worth of difference between Obama and Lieberman!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7268146