I'm sorry, but Gravel is full of shit

[MadBadger]

His response to Chris about criminalizing the war makes no sense.

[Little Wing]

1. .

:eyes:

[PreacherCasey]

2. about what?

[ecstatic]

3. I hate to say this, but he doesn't seem "all there..."

I'm watching him now.

[Digit]

67. I totally agree n/t

[GaYellowDawg]

4. I VEHEMENTLY disagree.

I couldn't think of a better addition to the Democratic platform.

[AlCzervik]

5. no he's not, you're just not used to seeing a candidate that isn't handled.

[mvd]

8. Yep, he's certainly spontaneous

He helped liven things up.

[AlCzervik]

he sure did.

[H2O Man]

6. Ha! n/t

[Donnachaidh]

7. he lost me with his *I'm older so I'm wiser* schtick

I know plenty of older people who are still chuckleheads. In fact, they become bigger chuckleheads with age.

Grandpa Gravel needs to go back to Alaska.

[Ediacara]

13. That was a play off of a Reagan line actually

In a 1984 debate with Mondale he made some quip about not bringing up Mondale's youth and inexperience.

If I were him, I wouldn't be running to Reagan for quotes...

[KharmaTrain]

14. "Grandpa" Spearheaded Some Epic Environmental Legislation

I'd do a little homework on Sen. Gravel before one throws around the term "chucklehead". He was also one of the leaders in getting the truth about Vietnam out and then our troops. That sure doesn't sound like a "chucklehead" idea to me.

Gravel will get these candidates off their talking points and bring up issues that aren't "popular".

I'd suggest you read up on Sen. Gravel...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Gravel

[malaise]

24. 100% correct n/t

[Donnachaidh]

28. 3 words -- BRIDGE TO NOWHERE

he's still not on my list to vote for.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

30. Nice attempt at misinformation. That was Stevens.

MKJ

[karlrschneider]

Jesus, he was out of the Senate YEARS before Ted Stevens got that shit going.

:eyes:

[AlCzervik]

41. do you have sny info on that are you just ASSuming?

[KharmaTrain]

44. That's Ted Stevens - (R)

That's who wants the Bridge to Nowhere...he's a REPUGNICAN who took Gravel's seat after Mike left the Senate in '81. Please, at least get the slime right. Thank you!

[Blue_In_AK]

53. That's wrong, too.

Gravel was defeated by Frank Murkowski in 1981. Ted Stevens was appointed by Gov. Wally Hickel in 1968 after the death of Democratic Senator Bob Bartlett. Gravel and Stevens served together for 12 years.

[KharmaTrain]

59. Correction Noted

I forgot about Bob Bartlett...didn't he go down in the plane crash with Boggs...Cokie's dad?

Thank you for the clarification. Fingers are flying tonight

:toast:

[Blue_In_AK]

68. No, that was our Democratic representative, Nick Begich

It's because of HIS death that we got stuck with the horrible Don Young. I've always thought it ironic that Stevens and Young only got to where they are because of their appointments after the untimely deaths of two good Dems. A sad situation.

The good news is that Begich's son Mark is Anchorage's mayor, a good solid progressive, who I anticipate will move on to bigger and better things once his second mayoral term is up. Remember the name.

[KharmaTrain]

69. I Read About Him On Kos

Sorry for showing my senility tonight. But ya know things are starting to turn when we're seeing a resurgence of Democrats in the 49th state. Kudos.

BTW...any word on that scandal involving Stevens kid? I haven't heard anything in months.

Cheers...

:hi:

[Blue_In_AK]

71. As for Ben Stevens, we're still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

The FBI was doing a lot of snooping around our state legislature last year, but so far there's only been one indictment, of Republican Tom Anderson. Ben didn't run for re-election in 2006 and hasn't been heard from much recently. I guess he's laying low.

[SOS]

74. Didn't Gravel lose in the primary to Clark Gruenig?

With Gruenig losing to Murkowski in the general election?

[Blue_In_AK]

75. You could be right about that.

It's been quite a while ago. I always kind of enjoyed having Mike Gravel as my senator for the first five years I lived in Alaska. What a dud Murkowski was, and his worthlessness was definitely proved when he came back here to be governor in 2002. What a distinction to become the most unpopular governor in the country. Wow.

[Blue_In_AK]

46. Gravel didn't have one damn thing to do with the bridges

That's purely Stevens and Don Young in the House. Gravel is now and has always been a good solid liberal.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

72. That describes Gravel's campaign well

A BRIDGE TO NOWHERE!

[Clark2008]

63. "Grandpa" would garner more white male votes in the South

and mid-West than any of our three front-runners - I can tell you that.

He comes across as strong, tough and rooted - plus, he's not a woman, a black man or a metrosexual-looking dude (the way the three are thought of in white male Bubba world).

Oh - and he lives in Virginia now, not Alaska.

[bluestateguy]

9. What a grouch he was

"I was beginning to feel like a potted plant over here..."

Take it easy buddy. Geez, sounds like someone needs a Viagra refill.

[MazeRat7]

10. Yes... but it was fun. -nt

[MadBadger]

11. THe whole criminalizing the war thing makes no sense

And Matthews hit him on it. How are they going to get Bush to sign the bill? did anybody follow his response?

[frankenforpres]

17. how did it not

he wants to make the congress show their colors to the american people. if the people want the war stopped, they can override the veto or face losing their job


maybe you think it wouldnt work, but dont act like he is "not all there"

[sandnsea]

34. WE have to get OUR Republican

Congressmen and Senators to sign on to the veto override. One at a time. That's how you do it.

[MadBadger]

38. Just like impeachment, that has no chance of happening.

[sandnsea]

58. It's happened before

And this is war, our kids dying, Iraqi women and babies dying. Gravel is saying that if Democrats really ratcheted it up - and did that by holding a veto override vote every single day - Americans would start putting pressure on the moderate Pubs up for election - and we could get the vote.

Whether it would be done quickly or even before the next election is questionable - but there is a path to do that if we wanted to.

[Roy]

40. Chris Mathews cut him off to drown him out.....

Before other Dems heard this and learn how to fight bullies.

Repubs do and say things because they know once hammered by the rightwing noise machine and the media they will back down.

That's the purpose of the noise surrounding the veto threat.

If the idiots thought that Dems would resubmit this same bill relentlessly, the veto would be overridden in a heartbeat. They know the public supports this approach.

That's the point Gravel was trying to get across and the Bush loving Chris Matthews was having none of it.

[valerief]

12. Why can't an illegal war be a crime? nt

[MadBadger]

18. It can be, but how do you make a law and get by the President's veto

Did his answer post debate make sense?

[valerief]

21. Tweety wouldn't let him explain how to the veto override numbers. nt

[malaise]

37. He did explain it

It's a great idea. It's also on his website.

http://www.gravel2008.us/?q=node/386

[liberalnurse]

I totally disagree.

I'd vote for him.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. He was talking tactics

but those tactics worked 25 years ago... I'm not sure they would work today

Gravel had a very different media and country to deal with

[fooj]

16. He's right about the Dems giving "shelter" to the Repubs.

He's intense but he makes sense on some of his comments.

[Individualist]

26. His candor was refreshing.

[BlooInBloo]

19. Of course - the only way the bottom-barrel candidates get any press...

... is to be shock-jocks.

[WA98296]

20. You're "sorry"?...Too bad all of our democratic candidates are not that honest.

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. The war IS A CRIME and the entire administration should be arrested, indicted, tried and sent to the

HAGUE!

[MadBadger]

25. But the thing is, how on Earth do you actually make it an official Crime?

[in_cog_ni_to]

60. Well, when the Democrats have a MAJOR Majority after the '08 election and take back the WH, Congress

can write the legislation and make it retroactive and arrest their asses after they leave office.

[MadBadger]

61. That is not what Gravel is advocating though

I have no problem with that.

[HawkerHurricane]

62. Won't work.

After the fact laws are unConstitutional. If you want to arrest them, you have to do it with the laws that existed at the time of the crime.

[mvd]

27. The war was against the Geneva Convention

I agree that it was illegal and a war crime. I didn't expect everyone to say this, but you could tell that Hillary for example wanted to say more.

[Octafish]

23. Gravel's busted the Military Industrial Complex...

...which has pretty much ruined America.

Those interested in learning why might want to read "House of War" by James Carroll.

[sandnsea]

29. Southeast Asia and Nicaragua

Yes, criminalizing the war makes very good sense. That's exactly what is meant by Nixon's illegal war, and part of the Iran/Contra illegal arms deals. Congress had criminalized military acts in parts of the world.

[MadBadger]

But how do you about criminilizing the war?

[sandnsea]

35. See #34 n/t

[mvd]

36. Preemptive war on a country that posed no threat to..

us. There's evidence that the intelligence was cooked - The Downing Street Memo alone shows this. We just have to keep hammering away at the Republicans.

[MadBadger]

42. And it is stupid to think they will budge

[mvd]

47. You have to keep trying

Or else there's no chance for sure.

[MadBadger]

50. Keep Trying is not good enough

[mvd]

51. Keep trying is the only thing to do

Combined with the hearings we've started. Things are going to get bigger. I mean these things take time. I'd rather not do nothing.

[flpoljunkie]

31. Gravel, the bomb thrower, wants to replace income tax with national progressive sales tax.

I heard him say several months ago this is the reason he is running for president. Dumb idea! Not gonna happen!

[mvd]

33. I liked what he said tonight, but I still have to..

study all his positions before I determine how high up he is on my list.

[w4rma]

39. "progressive" my butt. (nt)

[Cameron27]

32. I'd say he added color to the debate,

but I was waiting for a dag'nabbit out of him at any second.

[karlrschneider]

43. Made perfect sense to me. But what do I know?

I've only been following politics for 46 years...

[MadBadger]

45. Okay then, how do we criminalize the war?

[B Calm]

55. You hand Bush and Cheney over to the Iraqi court and let them decide

[MadBadger]

56. And how do you do that exactly? Are we going to have a coup now?

[B Calm]

70. You start by having the balls to co sponsor Dennis's impeachment of Cheney!

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

48. some Duers say dems have no spine, and then someone with a spine

shows up and some DUers think he's crazy.

[MadBadger]

54. Im not one of them that thinks they have no spine.

[mmonk]

49. Straight talk invokes responses

such as you're engaging in now.

[hippiechick]

52. ... unfortunately he doesn't have a chance of winning but ..

... I think he's pretty much correct.
And the only one aside from DK with the balls to speak the whole truth to the American people.

[Colobo]

57. Gravel is hillarious... don't take him seriously, just enjoy!

[Dave From Canada]

73. Totally agree! He was very entertaining.

[Swamp Rat]

64. Why are you sorry?

[MadBadger]

65. I'm not really sorry. I guess its just a figure of speech.

[Swamp Rat]

66. ok

:hi:

[robertpaulsen]

76. Richardson basically said the same thing in a post debate interview.

He said Congress needs to use their authority under the War Powers Act and vote to De-Authorize IWR. He told Keith Olbermann he believes that they can get around any threatened Presidential veto, but it would probably need to be resolved by SCOTUS.

[Jeroen]

77. Noam Chomsky only takes more time to make the same argument as Gravel n/t