CBS: Battle brewing between President Obama and the nation's teachers unions

[Bluebear]

There's a battle brewing between President Obama and the nation's teachers unions over his plans to reauthorize No Child Left Behind. The crux of the White House's plan would set firmer standards for success and judge schools by the growth of individual students instead of overall class performance.

But the nation's largest Teachers union, the National Education Association, released a statement Saturday that said they would not support the "blueprint", adding that it relies on relies on standardized tests to identify "winners and losers" with states competing for critical resources.

On Monday's "Washington Unplugged," NEA President Dennis Van Roekel told CBS News' Sharyl Attkisson, "We believe that collaboration is absolutely essential and we want to make sure that within the policy that is written that it ensures that management, the school boards, the employees and their unions are absolutely part of that collaboration to reach out to parents and the community."...


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000501-503544.html

[Starry Messenger]

1. I hope so.

I'll be disappointed if it's just a series of strongly worded letters. This is war.

[Brickbat]

2. "Brewing," nothing. He's declared war. And anyone who's paying attention will note that it's not

just war on the teachers unions, but on public education in general.

[LisaM]

3. Sigh. I know.

What action can we take?

[Bluebear]

4. Who would think that Democrats would be "at war" with Unions?

Disgraceful.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. I'm so proud of my union!

Our president issued a great statement this weekend and I have received several emails keeping members updated.

This is very bad policy Mr President. Very very bad.

[Bluebear]

7. SOLIDARITY, proud2b

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. You got it Bluebear

:hug:

[Tansy_Gold]

11. I'm not a teacher but am the proud product of many good ones

Can I stand in solidarity with you?


Tansy Gold, ignoring the few bad teachers she had because the good ones were in a huge majority.

[laughingliberal]

69. +1

Is it just me or are we not seeing nearly enough of you, lately?

Anyway, it's good when we do.

[Tansy_Gold]

86. Oh, thank you! :blush: :blush:

Between the day job, home repairs, and a visit from my mother, I've been extremely busy lately, and my time for DU has been cut like a public school budget. I think I'm turning the corner on that now, however, so look for me (mainly in the Stock Market Watch and Week-End Economists threads) to be more of a presence in the near future.

You have no idea what your kind words do for my little insecure soul! :hug:


Tansy Gold

[laughingliberal]

89. I'm so glad to hear you will be around more & that my words encouraged you

I have always noticed your responses and found them insightful.

:pals:

[dflprincess]

92. Tansy_Gold speaks for me

I'm tired of teachers being blamed while those pointing the fingers cut funding for schools and expect the teachers to educate more kids with fewer tools.

And then there's this sort of thing:



God forbid anyone suggest that parents bear some of the responsibility.

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. I love that cartoon!!

:rofl:

[mzteris]

108. They want to give teachers MORE TOOLS

and smaller classes. . . and better pay and more opportunity.

Have you read it? You should - lots of good stuff in there. http://www2.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/blueprint/blueprint.pdf

This makes it clear that it is EVERYONE's "responsibility" not just the teacher. They will hold the schools accountable for the teachers, the districts accountable for the schools, and the states accountable for the districts.

They are promoting EQUITABLE distribution of assets to poorer schools and at-risk schools - meaning not only more money, but making sure that they get their fair share of "highly qualified teachers and principals".

[dflprincess]

113. And when the administration starts "compromising" with the Republicans

the first thing that will go is more money because that might mean someone has to pay more taxes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. Of course you can!

:hug:

[CrispyQ]

171. Ditto!

Many of the most inspiring people in my life have been teachers!

What the fuck is this president thinking?

[roguevalley]

109. Local pres and sec and state sec of AFT. GO, UNIONS!

As if teachers don't get enough shit.

[proud2BlibKansan]

166. Are you a national delegate?

Going to the convention this summer?

[Political Heretic]

180. Solidarity.

[EFerrari]

6. Kick.

[wroberts189]

8. Instead of applauding the firing of teachers how about firing the entire SEC?

After all they were warned about Bernie Maddof's big ponzi scheme for 10 fucking years.

on edit: please excuse my language... I am just a bit angry of teachers becoming the new punching bag for all our education woes.

[Nikki Stone1]

9. That's because Obama and Arne are carrying out a privatization/Piratization scheme

that will destroy public education and teaching as a profession.

[mzteris]

14. yeah - out of ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND SCHOOLS

in America - FIVE PERCENT of them are Charter public schools. Some takeover.

[Nikki Stone1]

19. They start with the poor schools: curriculum changes, wire fences, locker searches...

etc. These all started with poor schools in urban areas. While racist white people looked the other way, black and Hispanic students were subjected to one bad change after another. But the changes stealthily moved to the suburbs, and while the white parents fought like hell, the school systems had to make these changes in order to get Federal (Dept. of Education) funds.

This Charter movement will go the same way.

[mzteris]

20. so you're on the

CHARTER schools take advantage of the poor side of anti charter instead of the Charters take the cream of the crop and are elitist hate charter movement.


I'm not quite sure what else you're trying to say in your post, though. It's a little bit cryptic.

[Nikki Stone1]

129. Look at the big picture, not the small details.

The ultimate goal is a completely privatized public school system which will siphon taxpayer dollars directly to hedge funds and other large investors. This for-profit system will entail a low-paid workforce (teachers) and zero investment from the investors themselves. In some cases, the charter companies are fighting for the titles to new school buildings, built with taxpayer dollars.

We don't make much in this country anymore, so the only way the hedge funds/investors can "make money" is by direct theft of taxpayer dollars. THAT is what is happening. The changes these charters require will filter down the line:

[mzteris]

132. I really don't understand how anyone

can say that - "completely privatizing" - there are 5000 charters and 100,000 traditionals - do you really think they're all going away in one fell swoop?

Please provide me with examples of this "siphoningn off to hedge funds and investors. . . " I keep hearing people on here say such things, but have yet to have anyone give me a concrete example of this actually taking place.

It is NOT a "for-profit" system. All Charters are NON-PROFIT. 10% of them are managed by a for profit management company (some traditional schools are as well...) Evidence shows that fewer each year are opting for the "for profit" managment.

Another 10% - managed by a non-profit managenment co.

the other 80% - run by local TEACHERS, and PARENTS and individuals of the community.

I hardly see any wholesale theft taking place. Are there some unethical people TRYING to profit off of the charter program. Yeah. Just like there are plenty of unethical people who DO profit off of traditional schools...

I don't want to replace traditionals, I want them to improve where they need to improve. I want CHOICE for people. Schools that can meet the needs of EVERY child regardless of how they learn or what they want to learn and I don't want them to have to pay for it!

[AllyCat]

149. Hey, the hospital I work for is "non-profit" and made $27M in 2008

[Hannah Bell]

154. your inability to see is purposeful.

[flyarm]

163. you bet it is Hannah!! you nailed him! eom

[Tansy_Gold]

167. Center on Reinventing Public Education has a different take on this

http://www.crpe.org/cs/crpe/view/csr_pubs/306

This is an academic-based (University of Washington) study group (National Charter School Research Project) that's been around since 1993. So they have some experience and have some history of collecting data.

Here are just some comments from their January 2010 report.

However, charter school advocates and state policymakers need to address shortcomings that threaten to limit the sector’s ability to become a mainstream option for American families.

>School turnarounds require much more than good intentions. They succeed only about 30 percent of the time. If charter schools are to effectively replace chronically low-performing schools, the charter school sector needs to quickly develop a stronger cadre of excellent principals and capable governing boards.

>Boston charter schools that succeed in raising test scores do not always perform well on college entrance exams. To fully demonstrate that such schools are an important new model for urban schooling, the sector may need to pay greater attention to critical thinking and other skills needed for college success.

It's a long report, but it contains INFORMATION, not just rhetoric, and it's produced by an institution with at least a little less bias than, say, UScharterschools.org or Charter Schools USA or The Broad Foundation. The CRPE report does have some good things to say about charters and about their successes. BUT those good things are tempered with cautions because the charter model has not had universal success, and some of its failures have been headliners.

The model Broad and his allies are pushing for Detroit is grandiose. It aims not just to open 70 new schools by 2020 but to completely revamp ALL Detroit schools -- public, charter, and "independent." This is not only impossible -- it's stupid and insane. This is the dream of a megalomaniac who thinks he can throw $200 million at a problem and make it all better. No, don't bother pointing me to his various websites because I don't have the time to go to them and I have no desire to waste any more of my time on his cockamamie plans. I have a day job that I'm neglecting right now at my peril as it is.

I haven't put anyone on ignore --- yet --- but I have spent a lot of time and done a bit of research and tried to be objective and open minded about the whole charter issue. Urban Prep in Chicago appears to have accomplished something, though we aren't sure what or how. Charter high schools in Massachusetts are achieving higher scores on state-mandated tests than public schools, but the cost isn't quite measurable yet and the students seem LESS successful on college entrance exams like the SAT. So the jury is still decidedly out on the whole charter issue, and until the jury returns, I'm not going to pass sentence one way or the other.

Mzteris, you've asked repeatedly for us to read the Blueprint, with apparently the belief/faith/trust that once we've read the Good News, we'll be on board the Gospel Train. Well, I've read much of the Blueprint and I've read a lot of other stuff along the way, and I'm stayin' firmly in the station.


As that paragon of education Sarah Palin said, "Thanks, but no thanks."



Tansy Gold, a paragon of a different color

[AllyCat]

148. Corporate schools (charter schools) are their goal.

According to our Prez and his hitman Arne Duncan, we need more corporations to profit off the taxpayers. They will "run the schools like a business" and take the money. Remember, corporations are in the business of making money. They don't give a rat's ass if your kid gets an education. They want your tax dollars and to make a profit.

That's what Arne and Obama have in store for us all.

[flyarm]

162. +10,000!! with military leaders no less!..good way to create new cannon fodder eh? eom

[RainDog]

12. I VOTED FOR A DEMOCRAT

not a fucking reagan republican.

[flyarm]

164. no you voted for a Reagan Republican..you just didn't know it or want to know it..

go look up what Obama said about Reagan prior to inauguration..seriously..go look it up..

Many of us "mom's " warned about this..but we were called the c word..and worse..( can there be worse?) and racists when we brought it up!!

[earth mom]

177. Yep, we were called every name in the book and many were TSed for it.

Remember Leftchick? I miss her and so many others who spoke the truth. :cry:

[Political Heretic]

181. Leftchick's only crime was telling unpopular truth that now people are forced to accept.

It's a travesty that someone so correct who accurately predicted so much is not welcome here.

[mzteris]

13. Read it before you judge it - please.

I bet only a handful of people protesting the Blueprint has actually read it and studied it.

Is it possible for people to be OPEN-MINDED and look for whatever good they can find and then we can HEALTHILY DEBATE those things that need improvement? Can we??

:sigh: I doubt it. Too many are entrenched in their position (hating all things Obama) an filter everything through WANTING to interpret everything negatively.

I challenge each of you to find THREE THINGS you DO LIKE about it. If you want, I'll offer up what I DON"T like. Then maybe we can talk? MAYBE? Pretty please? A real discussion??? (I wish we had a forum for discussion and debate instead of blind ideological posturing. . . )

[RainDog]

15. are religious schools included in charter school funds?

does Obama want to allow the federal govt to give money to religions to educate children?

that's the basic question for me.

Like Blackwater and the military, I do not want religious schools funded while public schools are attacked.

We see the damage that these so-called schools that are run by religious zealots do for our democracy and our future. You cannot teach an entire generation to believe bullshit rather than science and not expect for it to have an impact.

I don't want political considerations to trump the welfare of the children of this nation.

[mzteris]

16. No.They are not.

Some STATES may allow "vouchers" for "church" schools, I'm not sure.

But Charter public schools are NOT allowed to "CHURCH" or "RELIGIOUS" schools.

[ibegurpard]

18. doesn't matter

diverting taxpayer dollars to private schools directly accountable to someone OTHER than the taxpayer is in direct opposition to the ideal of public education avaialable to everyone.
charter school vultures circling over the wreckage of public school systems in places like Detroit where the failure of the schools has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact there's no tax base, systemic corruption, and no social support network for children to succeed in schools makes me want to vomit.
you want to make a case for your privatization schemes? put your charter schools up agains the best public schools in the country and get back to me.

[mzteris]

21. they're not private schools -

All Charter schools are PUBLIC schools open to any who apply in the same way that magnet schools in traditional schools operate - LOTTERY.

Charters ARE still "accountable" to the taxpayer. In fact, they are MORE ACCOUNTABLE as unsuccessful charters disappear pretty quickly from the scene as opposed to poor traditional public schools.

[ibegurpard]

23. privatization vultures want to make a difference?

donate the resources, time, and energy to the failing public schools that desperately need it.
they won't do that, though, because it's NOT about the kids...it's about control.

[mzteris]

32. Please explain to me what you think

a "privatization vulture" is and WHY you think that.

They DO do that. There's a group in Detroit just WAITING to put TWO HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS to work educating the children there. What control? Control to ensure the kids get a GOOD education and opportunity in life??

[Tansy_Gold]

110. That "group" that wants to put $200 million into the Detroit "public" schools

is led by a man, Eli Broad, who admits he knows nothing about education. Great! Terrific! Next time you go to a doctor, make sure you get one who knows nothing about medicine.

Broad and his billionaire friends will "invest" $200 million in order to get their hands on a healthy portion of the $1.2 billion annual budget.

He will NOT be held accountable, any more than the other operators of failed charter schools are held accountable. When they fail, they fail and they just go away, leaving behind a mess for the taxpayers to clean up. Sound familiar?

You've got a dream, mzteris, and it's a laudable dream. But I think, in my humble opinion, that you are letting your dream, your hopes, your wishes, all get in the way of a very ugly reality.

More charter schools fail than succeed, and when they fail, they fail quickly and devastatingly. If anything, they have fewer tools, fewer resources than the "public" schools they're trying to replace.

Yes, Urban Prep Charter Academy in Chicago appears to have had some success; its class of 107 all-male seniors has achieved 100% college acceptance. The details aren't too clear, but on the surface it looks like a success story. But -- and there are lots of buts about the UPCA story -- this isn't a corporate foundation venture the way the Detroit "experiment" is. We know Tom King, who run UPCA, has some "connections." We know Robert Bobb of DPS has "connections" as well, and he's got major conflicts of interest, as King might.

You're willing to believe Broad and Gates and BES can just swoop in and Detroit will miraculously have high quality schools. Will that help the 50% unemployment rate? Will it improve the quality of life the kids at those 70 schools have when they leave the classroom?

Instead of grasping at straws, why not look at the facts, the facts that indicate we don't even know for sure what a "failing school" really is, the facts that indicate charter schools are NOT the answer to public education's problems, the facts that indicate the LAST place education budgets should be cut is EDUCATORS. In charter schools, that's often the FIRST thing that's cut.


Tansy Gold

[mzteris]

127. People donate money to medicine all the time

who aren't DOCTORS! Are you going to refuse to go to the Mayo clinic because of it?? What's wrong with people donating MONEY?

Do you really think this is about making money for these people? REALLY? If you truly "believe that" then I can't help you. Hell, even if I believe it, though, I'd take their money in a heart beat 'cause right now our schools are going bankrupt.

You have a lot of very biased information highlighting ONLY the negatives. At least,though, when a charter school fails - it DOES go away, instead of continuing to "NOT EDUCATE" kids - and in some cases actively abuse them, like some traditional models. that's the whole POINT, imo. If you're not any good at your job, get the hell out!

I firmly believe that yes, in the past there were some VERY bad decisions made about charters. It was a new system with bugs to be worked out. They're gettingn better all the time as the successful ones are modeled and the failing models avoided. Have there been scandals? Yes. (As well as scandals in traditional ones.) You don't cut off your leg because you have an infection in your toe! Andn I DON"T believe that "more charter schools fail than succeed."

At current count there are approximately 5000 charter schools in the US.

Between 2005 and 2009 (2008-2009 schoo lyear) approximately 1,931 charters opened. 582 (FIVE HUNDRED EIGHT TWO) closed. That's hardly "more fail than succeed", by any mathematician's figuring.


Urban Prep "appears to have success"? That's an understatement! And no, I DO NOT believe there was any grade fixing or bribery or anything of that ilk. That really infuriates me when people say that - I always wonder at their motivation, ya know?

No, no miracle. But putting the money, the effort - and yeah their clout and prestige - into helping poor underprivileged under-served kids - then why the hell NOT? They donate money to colleges and universities, too. Are they making money off of them as well? Don't you believe people can just be altruistic?

One of the things the "Blueprint" goes into is the COMMUNITY. They want to improve everything surrounding a student's life to make it better. Really it's quite good if you'd read it. (Iknow i say that a lot, but honestly, I think hardly ANYONE on DU has actually read the entire damned thing! aarrghh)

The facts ARE that yeah, we do know what some FAILING SCHOOLS are. They're the ones where kids can't do basic math and get to ninth grade without being able to read! Charters are not THE answer to public eduation, but they are ONE option that is currently working for thousands of kids. Do you want to take that away from them? Have them go back into a school that OBVIOUSLY - for whatever reason - wasn't working for them?

Why do you say that the first thing cut in Charters is educator pay? Could you provide some data with that?

Yeah, a lot of Charter teachers do "work for less" . Why do you think that is? Do you think that jsut MAYBE they like where they're teaching so much it doesn't matter? That they're given the autonomy and the support to actually do what they love - and that is to actually TEACH KIDS?!?

That's one thing that really bothers me about a lot of the teachers on DU bashing Charters so much. Don't they realize that there are TEACHERS who WANT to teach there. Qualified educators who - in some cases - have helped to found and design these schools. That just MAYBE there are SOME redeeming qualities to be found charter public schools.

It's NOT a competition for gd's sake! We should all be workikng to help kids learn and succeed. Having more models and choices is the optimal way to go about it. Problem is. It hasn't and isn't being done in most places. Sometimes if you want a job done right, you just gotta do it yourself, you know? Some teachers, some parents, some kid's just got TIRED of waiting for the school district to come around and "fix" their problems. They can't afford PRIVATE school. Why shouldn't everyone have the freedom to choose the school environment that works for them without having to pay for it?

Thank you for not attacking me and having civil discourse. I hope I've returned the same. I know sometimes people think I'm being rude or snarky when I have no intention of doing so, if it seems that way, please forgive me. I really would like to have these types of discussions. I hate all the bickering and childish name calling so many indulge in. Yeah, I know sometimes I'm guilty 'cause I do get extremely incensed on occasion and I hit post before thinking. I try not to do that. And I try very hard to listen to people's facts and ideas. What turns me off is when people make PRONOUNCEMENTS based on nothing more than "what they heard" or someone's someone they know had a "bad experience".

Thanks again.

[Tansy_Gold]

142. I don't have to provide data when your own statements agree with me.

You wrote:

"Why do you say that the first thing cut in Charters is educator pay? Could you provide some data with that?

Yeah, a lot of Charter teachers do "work for less" ."

On the whole, charter schools, along with most private schools, pay teachers less. Charter schools, for the most part, do not receive the same full public money support that "regular" public schools get. They have to cut their budget from the public school model per pupil. Sometimes they're able to do this because they are "given" public school facilities at no cost to the charter. Sometimes they make up budget shortfalls with donations.

Your comparison of "donations" is of apples to mandolins. The donors who give to medical institutions like the Mayo Clinic or any other hospital or medical facility generally do not attempt to set medical policy. Oh, there are the exceptions, like the donation made to the University of Arizona medical school contingent upon not teaching how to perform abortions, but generally, the donations are made with the intention of allowing the medical professionals to practice medicine without interference from the donor.

The same is not true of Eli Broad and his "partners" in the Detroit Public Schools take-over. They are in fact intending to take over and run the schools. Are you old enough to remember the Chad Everett commercials -- "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV"? That's pretty much what we've got going on up there in Detroit. Eli Broad is a Detroit native and a billionaire, so that qualifies him to run the schools???

It's one thing for corporations to donate to schools, which may be part of the case in Urban Prep in Chicago. Someone had to come up with the money for the kids' computers, etc. But it's quite another for those donors -- corporate or individual -- to dictate policy with a political agenda.

You also wrote --

"It's NOT a competition for gd's sake!"

In fact, it most certainly IS a competition. That was part of the impetus (or maybe just the propaganda) behind the charter school movement: to provide COMPETITION for the public schools to make them better. Make them compete instead of having a "monopoly" on public education. Competition was supposed to spark innovation and excellence. If that was the case, why have the public schools not improved as a result of the competition? And if the charter schools are so much better, why do they keep rising and falling?

How many charter schools are long-term successes?

In which districts where charter schools have been installed as competition to encourage traditional schools to do better have the traditional schools in fact improved?

What happens to the children "left behind" who don't get into the charter schools?

How can schools -- traditional public, charter public, or private -- ameliorate the social problems of poverty, joblessness, rampant drug addiction and crime that plague the communities where many "failing" schools are located? It's marvelous rhetoric, but what can the school really do?

I read about 12 pages of the administration's Blueprint, and I saw a lot of wonderful but very vague rhetoric there, too. A Blueprint isn't a sketch: it's a detailed and precise drawing of how the final structure will go together: what materials it takes, how its substructures are built, locations of mechanical assemblies, etc. I'm not an architect and I've never played one on TV, but I've built a couple of my own houses and even designed one, as well as working for a number of specialized construction companies. What you see in "100 Country House Plans" is a simple floor plan lay-out and an artist's rendering of the finished house. That's pretty much what I saw in the opening of the Blueprint. Kinda like most of Obama's campaign speeches -- lots of stuff to make you feel good and encouraged, but not much real substance. And in a way that's what any kind of federal legislation is going to be like when the real control and the real regulation is going to take place on a much more local level. (Contrast that to what banking and financial institution regulation ought to be like.)

You keep demanding that we who are pretty much opposed to the wholesale promotion of charter schools as THE MIRACULOUS ANSWER provide data on why we're against them. In my opinion we have. Many of us have spoken from personal experience. While my experience has been tangential at best, what I've seen of the charter schools in Arizona has not encouraged me to support more of them on a similar model. I think madfloridian has provided plenty of information on how bad charter schools are in Florida. Tonysam has provided personal experience of private school teachers making less than public school teachers.

Through much of the 20th century, pretty much up until the 1960s, teaching was seen as a woman's profession. It was an extension, like nursing, of woman's role as nurturer and caregiver. In the upper grades -- junior high and high school -- more men were accepted in the teaching role, especially in fields of math and science. (IIRC, South Junior High School in Arlington Heights, IL, had exactly one female math teacher, Lois Fritsche, and one female science teacher, Mrs. Goodfellow who also taught home ec.). The Vietnam war and draft deferments for teachers -- think John Ashcroft -- sent more men into elementary and secondary education, which helped to boost salaries, too.

Teaching was looked on, by a lot of people, as a cushy job. Three months off in the summer, two weeks at Christmas, a week in the spring, all the holidays. When men entered the field in greater numbers in the 60s and 70s, the PERCEPTION changed. The work hadn't changed, the schedule hadn't changed, but now people were being given a better look at what teachers really did: the after hours work, the continuing education classes, the extra curricular activities' sponsorships, etc. Teaching started to get some of the respect and remuneration it had always deserved.

Then along came Ronald Reagan. Ketchup as a vegetable. PATCO. The Great Arizona Mine Strike of 1983. It was all about breaking the backs of the unions that had brought middle class incomes to working class people.

It's great that some teachers are so dedicated to their most noble profession that they're willing to work for $10 an hour without benefits just to teach in a charter school. But a teacher can't support a family, can't take continuing education classes, can't buy supplies for her or his class on $10 an hour.

Is the solution to that, then, to fund charter schools at parity with traditional public schools? Have charters demonstrated that they warrant that kind of funding? Will they be restricted in the kinds of donations they receive, as traditional public schools are now? Will they be required to accept any and all students who apply to them, rather than by lottery or application?

Will they be required to hire only qualified teachers, who have the professional education (and background checks) that traditional public school teachers have? Will they have to provide financial accountability? Will they be allowed to funnel their funds through for-profit affiliates, the way Imagine Schools does, and deprive the students of needed resources?

You also wrote:

"At current count there are approximately 5000 charter schools in the US.

Between 2005 and 2009 (2008-2009 schoo lyear) approximately 1,931 charters opened. 582 (FIVE HUNDRED EIGHT TWO) closed. That's hardly "more fail than succeed", by any mathematician's figuring."

I'm not sure how "between 2005 and 2009" equates to "2008-2009 school year" but I'll take your figures as given: At a current count of approximately 5,000 charter schools, most of which have opened in the past 25 years or so, almost 600 failed -- as in they closed their doors and ceased to exist -- in a four year period. While that may not be a mathematical "more failed than succeeded," it's not a very high success rate. Can we extrapolate -- not knowing how many had started and failed prior to 2005 and were part of the current 5000 -- a conservative failure rate of 15%? 20%?

And remember, this is not a failure of the education model -- it's a failure of the business model. And that's exactly the model that Eli Broad and Arne Duncan and Barack Obama want to bring on a grand scale to our already failing (by someone's definition) public education system.

I'm sorry, mzteris, but I find absolutely nothing to recommend that model. Not. One. Fucking. Thing. I've looked, and I've found no more positives than there were WMDs in Saddam's Iraq.

The existing model of traditional public education seems to be working reasonably well except in areas of high poverty, crime, and unemployment. None of those are the fault of the schools, the teachers, the students, or even in many cases the parents. It's the fault of a corporatocracy that's fucked us all in the name of greed. I see no hope for improvement in public education by letting the likes of Eli Broad get control of even a small portion of it. Detroit, Central Falls, Wichita, Apache Junction, all deserve better. Much better.


Tansy Gold

[mzteris]

144. a lot, and ALL are two different things...

"Charter schools, for the most part, do not receive the same full public money support that "regular" public schools get. "

I am SO glad you said that. MOst anti-charters insist they get MORE $.

That's not my interpretation of the Detroit thing - I admit I haven't been following it closely so I don't know. And, I'm not a "EliBroad" hater like so many on DU are. I'm not sure why everyone hates him so much. 'Cause he has money or what? Same thing with Gates. :shrug:

They weren't set up as "competition" but as opportunities for change without it affecting the entire system. Only those who WANTED to "try the new thing" went. No one HAD to. Many communities HAVE made changes due to the Charters in their districts. It's happened here where I live now (due to only ONE Charter school), and where I used to live as well. There absolutely is a correlation between what the charters have done and what the system is starting to implement. Not all systems, of course, but quite a few frorm my knowledge.

Again - some models work, some don't. Some people have great ideas and little talent. Some people have not enough money. Or enough sense. But they ARE improving and that knowledge is being used by the new CHarters opening. Not all are going to be a success. No. That is a risk but it's a risk that a parent takes willingly and knowingly.

I want ALL schools to be better. That argument cuts both ways. What about the children who go to the "good" school in their district and the ones who get the "crappy inner city school" just because of where they live (or the color of their skin!) that's one of the things about this plan that is pushing for equity for schools. No more "theh good school gets the best new equipment and more money and better teachers" , but at-risk schools have to be assured of equitable staffing and equipment and money. Don't you tbink that's a good idea?

Meeting the needs of the WHOLE child and the community support is a part of Obama's plan. Ok - maybe it's too hopeful in effecting the necessary change, but at least he's talking about the fact that poverty and drugs and gangs and hunger and violence have an effect on a child's ability to learn. These things are addressed in here. I'd love to see all that happen, wouldn't you?

Twelve pages? You missed some of the best stuff! The thing about Obama that a lot of people don't get (or don't like) is that he nudges, he encourages - he sometimes PUSHES people in the "right direction" but he's not gonna tell you EXACTLY HOW to GET there! he wants people to take OWNERSHIP to be a part of the process. Do you really want the government to hand down exactly every single thing you should or shouldn't do? Hell no! You don't want that.

You've quoted the two people not on my list of go-to's. I find their rhetoric so totally slanted and viciously biased that it's completely worthless. They have never, once, engaged in a real conversation of merits. Just repeating negativity and "talking points" they got from somewhere. Sorry, but you seem to be way more able than they to have a coherent conversation. FWIW - EVERY SCHOOL in Florida is pretty damn bad from what I hear. . .

I've never said Charters were the MIRACULOUS ANSWER. I think they're a TOOL. Another CHOICE for some kids. Should we NEED THEM? No, we shouldn't. But the fact is, right now, we do. Because the system is so mired down it can't make some of the changes that some kids need and need now. Today.

I know of NO teacher making $10.00 an hour and no benefits. Could you please provide a specific example of this?

Again, Obama wants to improve the publics perception of teachers. Elevating their pay and appreciation and responsibility to a status commiserate with their ability. To support and reward teachers for doing what most people CAN'T do! Teachers ARE the backbone of this country. Thney have been chronically underpaid, undersupported, underappreciated, and under - uh - listened to! He WANTS that to change!! (you really should read all of it... :) )

Traditional schools have lotterys and applications, too. The applications are blind applications. Yeah - some have requirements - charters and trads - like mosst immersion schools have setasides for at least 50% NATIVE speakers. Or if you're applying for a higher grade, you have to be able to speak, read, and write on grade level for that target language. . . Does that make sense to you?

I'll give you an example of my own kid and his school. It's a charter spanish immersion - it's housed in the same building as the "traditional public school" - so the building, the demographics, the neighborhood, all the same pretty much except we may have a few more %wise of Hispanics (because of that 50% native speaker thing.)

Let's call them C for Charter and T for traditional . The other day we had the "Battle of the Books" - for the 5th graders. C - had 6 teams of 4 kids, T had 4 teams of 4 - even though we have about 40 5th graders, they have 71. Our kids teams LOWEST SCORE was two points shy of their teams HIGHEST score. Our highest score was nearly double their highest score.

Yearly tests (no i don't like them either but it's all we got right now) For last year - comparing 4th graders in percentages. (the same group of kids)

READING (Bear in mind that the Charter kids had NO instruction in English until THIRD GRADE.(except for my son who transferred in from a dual language prog for K & 1st elswhere.)
Competency: Trad ..... Charter
Minimal: ......20 .......... 8
Basic: ........23 ..........16
Proficient: ...33 ..........35
Advanced: .....23 ..........40

Language Arts
Competency: Trad ..... Charter
Minimal: ......20 ..........12
Basic: ........29 ..........19
Proficient: ...39.......... 34
Advanced: .....11.......... 33

MATH
Competency: Trad ..... Charter
Minimal: ......29 ..........15
Basic: ........11 .......... 9
Proficient: ...43 ..........34
Advanced: .....16 ..........41


Science
Competency: Trad ..... Charter
Minimal: ......19 .......... 8
Basic: ........29 ..........23
Proficient: ...46 ..........42
Advanced: ..... 6 ..........26

Social Studies
Competency: Trad ..... Charter
Minimal: ......11 .......... 4
Basic: ........14 .......... 9
Proficient: ...39 ..........26
Advanced: .....34 ..........59

And that's just one little dinky charter school in one little town without a whole hell of a lot of financial backing and making do on a shoestring!


The standards for the teachers should be the same. Maybe they're not for some schools. Are the standards the same for all traditional schools/districts/states the same? No. Else teaching certification would "travel" from state to state, would it not?

When I said 2008-2009 school year I meant that the 2009 figures were from LAST school year so you didn't think I meant 2009 this school year. The figures were for FOUR YEARS worth of data, not including our current school year. I'm sorry I was unclear on that. Um - not sure I quite agree with your figures there - and, there will be "more successes" and "fewer failures" as time goes on. From what I understand, some "closures" aren't really closures but a school that "changes hands", or name, or focus or something.

What is the "failure rate" (as in a very poor school not actually educating kids) of traditional schools, do you know? I don't know that either.

Well, I'm sorry you can't find anything redeeming whatsoever. My momma always said there's SOMETHING good in everybody (or thing) even if you have to look for it. (and for some people you gotta look mighty hard! lol)

I know a whole lot of people and children in a whole lot of different places going to a whole lotta different schools in just about every shape size type imaginable. There are good schools and bad schools wherever you look.

My experiences are very varied and that's what I'm bringing to my POV. Maybe I look for too much good. Maybe I fail in wanting more options available and being too impatient for change to take place. I dunno.

I've been very happy with the Charter schools my son went to. My friends are very happy with the Charter schools (not just the two from before, but at least 4 other schools) their kids attend. THey're happy and they're learning and they're successful. It's working in every personal case I know about so maybe I am prejudiced and blind to all what you claim. so sue me.

I'm a Democrat and I believe in CHOICE.

(I used to homeschool, too! and will again if I have to. . . )

damn i need to go to bed now. i haven't stayed up this late debating in ages. Thanks so much for the civil discussion. You have NO idea how much I appreciate it. Even if we don't agree. Night!

[Hannah Bell]

156. my stepfather's mother was a teacher whose husband abandoned her. she & her two kids lived for some

time on a poor farm, i.e. a work farm. she was an itinerant teacher, moving from place to place, paid *whatever* by small communities in the northwest ca. 1920s-30s.

what teaching used to mean, & maybe will again.

[Hannah Bell]

155. Urban Prep: Only 15% of the class with 100% college acceptance

met state standards in the 11th grade; i.e. the class scored almost as bad as the students at central high where they fired all the teachers for "failure".

yes, there's definitely a backstory to that "miracle". as with *all* the charter school success stories.

[roguevalley]

114. post their plan to do that. Its one thing to throw money at this and another

to have a real plan to change things enough to get everyone going.

[mzteris]

128. the entire plan isn't out, but

here's what I could find. Sounds good to me. . . though I'm sure some of yall will find NOTHING good and EVERYTHING bad about it. :sigh:

http://www.excellentschoolsdetroit.org/faqs#TOC-Is-this-plan-designed-to-undermine-


FWIW - the Detroit Federation of Teachers finds things to like about it . . .

[Hannah Bell]

172. PR speak :sigh:

[SoxFan]

48. You and your stinking facts!

Stop getting in the way of a self-righteously indignant rant!

[mzteris]

52. I'm sorry.

:hangsheadinshame: I have a bad habit of fact-finding.

:hi:

[Bluebear]

79. Is everyone who is suffering to you "indignant" and self-righteous? /ignore at last

Anti-union bigmouth.

[SoxFan]

85. LOL

My wife is a union member, my grandfather was a union member, and I had a 95% rating from the AFL-CIO as a state rep, but I'm "anti-union"? Yeah, ok.

[mzteris]

88. They conveniently ignore the fact

that many charters are unionized and many traditional public school teachers do NOT belong to a union.

[Tansy_Gold]

161. Very few charters are unionized

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-russo/how-a-charter-school-turn_b_168994.html

According to this article from March of last year, only 86 charters -- out of your 5000 -- were AFT represented. Less than 2%.




http://www.edwize.org/do-charter-schools-need-unions

How one teacher was treated at a charter school. So much for teachers being involved in the education process.



Yes, these are two quick anecdotal stories. But the first gives FACTS, NUMBERS that you seem to like so much, and they don't really support your contentions. Unfortunately, I have to get myself to work and I don't have time to list any more, but when a quick google search yields these (and all the WSJ anti-union, anti-teacher, pro-charter-for-profit bullshit) it's pretty clear where the numbers are going to lead.


There's an old Jewish proverb that may very well apply to this situation, mzteris:

If one person calls you a jackass, you can laugh them off and ignore them. If two people call you a jackass, you can laugh them off and ignore them. If three people call you a jackass, you might want to listen to what they have to say. And if four people (or more) call you a jackass, it's time to get fitted for a saddle.

This is a hot button issue for those of us involved and most of us are NOT agreeing with you. You've had a good experience with a charter school and that's great. But the problems with far more of the charter schools are not making them the rousing success you'd really like them to be. Despite the facts -- they aren't required to deal with students with physical or learning disabilities, they can hire and fire teachers at will, they have far more control over who they admit and don't admit, etc., etc., etc. -- they aren't a universal success, even by their own political standards and even with the ability to do all the things they say they want to do.

I'd like to see them succeed. I'd love to see a model that works perfectly, or even WELL, in all school districts with all socio-economic levels and ethnic mixes and learning abilities. So far, charters ain't gettin' it for me and I'm not going to support them.


Tansy Gold

[mzteris]

87. Nope.

Just a whole bunch of "loudmouths" on this board who evidently can't read and have very poor critical thinking skills!

I'm NOT anti-union. MY SON's CHARTER PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS ARE UNION!!!!

[MadHound]

160. You keep repeating that same tired line, but it simply isn't true

Charter schools are run by groups of people, or corporations, who want to make a profit, unlike public schools. Charter schools get to pick and choose their students, unlike public schools. Charter school teachers do not have to have the same sort of education or certification as public schools. Nor are charter schools held to the same standards as public schools.

Charter schools are not public schools, nor are they held to the same standards as public schools. You are simply continuing to spread lies and bullshit in your ongoing quest to do away with public schools. At least try to be intellectually honest in this debate.

[flyarm]

165. when people are paid to post propaganda, they can not be intellectually honest...

they are on a clock to post as much bullshit to thwart the truth as is possible.

[mzteris]

31. out of the top 25 highschools

7.....Pacific Collegiate SchoolSanta Cruz, CA
9..... BASIS TucsonTucson, AZ
13..... IDEA Academy and College PrepatoryDonna, TX
16..... KIPP Houston High SchoolHouston, TX
23..... Animo Leadership Charter High SchoolInglewood, CA
24..... Raleigh Charter High SchoolRaleigh, NC
25..... Lennox Mathematics, Science and Technology AcademyLennox, CA

Relative rankings of Charter schools.

Considering there are only - 2000 ish Charter high schools in the country that's what, .0035
Traditional high schools make up - .00072 of that top 25.

And add to the fact that most Charters have been open less than 10 years - and half THOSE less than six years!

So - I think they do okay, don't you?

Charter public schools are answerable to the public - even more so- than traditional schools. They're shut down faster if they're not working. They have to meet the SAME ACADEMIC STANDARDS as a minimum as the traditional schools. The thing that's different is the METHODOLOGY and the ATMOSPHERE. I don't see why people have such a problem with them.

The fact that places like Detroit and Chicago were effected by "white flight" and therefore little revenue and no one caring is ONE of the reasons that these schools are working. People WANT to be there. They WANT to help. They WANT to educate and improve their lot in life. Take a look at that Urban Prep in Chicago to see the type of schools that are being put into these areas. They're a good thing.

Question - how many charters schools and/or students and/or teachers are you PERSONALLY acquainted with. Not heard of or read about - and no - not just "one", either. Maybe you could consider looking more closely at what they ARE and what they DO instead of what you've been told about them. Are there bad ones? Hell yeah. And they should be - and will be - closed. Are there good ones? Most definitely.

The thing is, we should be looking for all the improvement and help we can GET to help our children succeed. Not arguing over who gets the credit.

[earth mom]

178. Money to schools for religious propaganda is a REALLY important question & deserves it's own thread.

The fundie zealots nutjobs will do everything they possibly can to control OUR schools so they can force feed their crap to ALL our children. :puke:

[Bluebear]

25. 'hating all things Obama' - yeah, that's a rational conversation opener.

[RainDog]

28. I just ignored that

because some will consider me an Obama hater no matter what. no matter that I did not support Kucinich or Clinton in the primaries...

in fact, I didn't really decide for anyone in the primaries until it came down to Obama and Clinton. I didn't want a repeat of the DLC.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

joke's on me!

but, yeah, I volunteered and phone banked and, while I knew that Obama positioned himself as a moderate, I don't consider his current actions moderate at all.

However, privatization of schools makes no sense to me when the point is that the conditions of life for children in their homes is a major marker for success and the economy sucks so... blame teachers?

[mzteris]

36. But that's the point!

They AREN'T BLAMING TEACHERS!!

In fact, they're putting in measure to ensure that the school is accountable for the support they give the teacher, the district is accountable for the support it gives the school, and the state is accountable for the support they give the district!

Again - PLEASE ACTUALLY READ IT! http://www2.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/blueprint/blueprint.pdf

They also look at the COMMUNITY and the conditions surrounding the child - knowing it affects their ability to learn.

Take a particular look at this section:

America’s schools are responsible for meeting the educational needs of an increasingly diverse student population, and ESEA programs must provide a wide range of resources and support to ensure that all students have the opportunity to succeed in college and in a career. ESEA includes programs that help schools meet the special educational needs of children working to learn the English language, students with disabilities, Native American students, homeless students, the children of migrant workers, and neglected or delinquent students. In addition, the federal government has a responsibility to provide assistance to certain high-need regions and areas, including rural districts and districts that are affected by federal property and activities.
In each of these areas, the Administration’s ESEA reauthorization proposal will continue and strengthen the federal commitment to serving all students, and improve each program to ensure that funds are used more effectively to meet the needs of the students they serve.
-more-

And this one:

Supporting student success requires deploying every tool at our disposal. The students most at risk for academic failure too often attend schools and live in communities with insufficient capacity to address the full range of their needs. The result is that students cannot always focus on learning and teachers cannot always focus on teaching.
Preparing students for success requires taking innovative, comprehensive approaches to meeting students’ needs, such as rethinking the length and structure of the school day and year, so that students have the time they need to succeed and teachers have the time they need to collaborate and improve their practice. It means supporting innovative models that provide the services that students need; time for teachers to collaborate to meet academic challenges; environments that help all students be safe, healthy, and supported in their classrooms, schools, and communities; and greater opportunities to engage families in their children’s education and strengthen the role of schools as centers of communities.

PROMISE NEIGHBORHOODS
Our proposal will provide new, competitive grants to support the development and implementation of a continuum of effective community services, strong family supports, and comprehensive education reforms to improve the educational and life outcomes for children and youths in high-need communities, from birth through college and into careers. Programs must be designed to improve academic and developmental outcomes for children and youths through effective public schools, community-based organizations, and other local agencies. Programs will be encouraged to take a comprehensive approach to meeting student needs, drawing on the contributions of community-based organizations, local agencies, and family and community members. Grantees will conduct a needs assessment of all children in the community in order to establish baseline data against which the grantee will aim to improve outcomes, and will promote and coordinate community involvement, support, and buy-in, including securing and leveraging resources from the public and private sectors.

21ST CENTURY COMMUNITY LEARNING CENTERS
Our proposal will provide competitive grants for states, school districts, nonprofit organizations, and partnerships to implement in school and out of school strategies that provide students and, where appropriate, teachers and family members, with additional time and supports to succeed.
=more-

[ibegurpard]

39. sounds good

what's stopping them from putting all this into the existing public schools?

[Catshrink]

42. The promise of profit.

[mzteris]

46. what profit?

Who are these people getting profit? And how much?

Can you give me specific examples??

[RainDog]

44. good question. n/t

[mzteris]

45. It's very difficult to get institutions to change.

The bigger they are, the longer they've been in operation, the harder it is to effect change.

There is a wonderful example of a school system outside of Denver that did all of these things with WONDERFUL results. DONCO here in DU was part of the process and has described it in detail. It's hard work. It takes a lot of time, money, and commitment on the part of EVERYONE involved. They were a "small system" in a small community so they were able to make it work.

It would be MOST WONDERFUL if ALL PS's DID these things!!! But unfortunately, not all will unless they're MADE to! And especially if you look at areas of poverty and racism - there's a reason for "white flight" - and their lily-white schools!! :puke: And they don't want to give up their money for "those people"!! One of the things the plan is calling for is EQUITABLE DISTRIBUTION of assets.


Greater equity. To give every student a fair chance to succeed, and give principals and teachers the resources to support student success, we will call on school districts and states to take steps to ensure equity, by such means as moving toward comparability in resources between high- and low-poverty schools. . .

Fostering Comparability and Equity. To give every student a fair chance to succeed and give principals and teachers the resources to support student success, we will encourage increased resource equity at every level of the system. Over time, districts will be required to ensure that their high-poverty schools receive state and local funding levels (for personnel and relevant nonpersonnel expenditures) comparable to those received by their low-poverty schools. In addition, districts that use their resources to provide strong support to disadvantaged students will be given additional flexibility to provide such support. States will be asked to measure and report on resource disparities and develop a plan to tackle them.


Districts that have put in place the required evaluation systems may generally spend funds flexibly, except that a district that is not improving equity in the distribution of effective teachers and principals will be required to submit a new plan to the state under which funds will be spent solely on ensuring its evaluation system meets the requirements described above and on specific activities aimed at improving the equitable distribution of effective teachers and principals.

Transformational Leaders. To strengthen traditional and alternative pathways into school leadership, our proposal includes competitive grants for the recruitment, preparation, and support of effective principals and leadership teams to turn around persistently low-performing schools.


there's more in this vein. . .

[ibegurpard]

49. put your money, resources, and efforts into the public schools

there's no way in hell I will ever support a privately funded charter school while a public school is being closed.
end of discussion.
edit: PARTICULARLY when they have the gall to divert taxpayer dollars to them as well.

[mzteris]

54. what do you mean "privately funded"

Care to give some examples? Or do you mean donations? Or fundraising? Like selling cookies? Can "traditional public schools even RECEIVE LARGE DONATIONS?" I dunno - can they? Do you know?

ooooooooooo - END OF DISCUSSION! :rofl:

Great way to effectively shut off communication and making progress.

DIVERT tax payer dollars to support taxpayers children in receiving a good and proper education that they weren't getting elsewhere. OK. sure.

[RainDog]

58. do you work for an organization that wants to fund charter schools?

just asking for info.

I find the "kill the schools to save them" rhetoric a little "optimistic."

Why are public schools not suitable for the task, if given the same resources as charter ones?

[mzteris]

62. No. I don't.

I'm just a MOM. I can do the whole spiel for you, but you can probably find elsewhere easily enough.

I wish traditional public schools WOULD make the changes. And if you've read this blueprint that everything that can be done, will be done to give those resources to the traditional schools. But - if after FIVE YEARS of support and extra $$, then some other method gets tried - and maybe one of those options would be a charter.

WHY won't traditional school systems do it - even if they HAVE the resources? Take a look at Kansas City schools. They had TWO BILLION DOLLARS to effect change - now they're closing half their schools. So it's not all a matter of funding.

Read Donco's story of turning around a whole district. I think it's one of the most fantastic things that could happen. The problem is, most places AREN'T going to do it!

There are appx One Hundred Thousand traditional public schools, there are approximately only five thousand Charter public schools. I don't think traditional schools are all "getting killed" anytime soon. Worst case, if they were all really bad, right now today, they'd have five years to turn around and then a one of four chance of being converted to a charter - but only if that's what the community wanted to do. Get the drift here? What are the odds, really, of this argument people mount? Pretty didddllydammnlow if you ask me.

[roguevalley]

116. 5 years to turn around. How do you expect that to happen? Busing

or what? You have no idea how bad it is in too many places to see draconian change in five years. I am glad you have a good school for your kid. But it bothers me to see you use your experience as the solution for this gigantic problem and to blame teacher for the shit administration does. Our school district hides money, counts every person in a building as a teacher when making the ratios and funnels special ed money wherever the hell they want to. This is more difficult and complex than most civilians know. I don't care if you had fifteen kids in the school system. On the outside, as bad as it may look, you will NEVER know how it truly is. And just because people went to school doesn't make them experts on the profession. I once had an operation but that doesn't make me a doctor. Teachers get enough shit.

Wanna know the biggest problem in changing the educational system? No one, AND I MEAN NO ONE! talks to teachers. EVER! We can do it but we never will because there are no seats at the table for us but we sure as hell can be fired and we sure as hell can be criticized by 'experts'.

[mzteris]

130. I have not and do not BLAME THE TEACHERS!!

ggaaaahhhh!! I hate that meme. Can we just get rid of it? It's NOT true. NO one does.

Yeah, I DO know "how bad it is" in some places. (I've moved around a bit...)

Your school district admin should be shot - or at least fired and put in jail! That's one of things this ADMIN is trying to do. To ensure equity, open accountability. To stop favoritism and some schools getting more money and the poor schools getting worse teachers and obsolete equipment.

They want to make the schools accountable for their teachers, the districts for their schools' performance, and the state for the performance of all of their districts.

I've spent a heck of a lot of time IN the classroom "helping out".Yeah, you're right - I'm NOT a teacher, but I've been there often enough and long enough to experience a little bit of everything - and in more than one school, more than one system, more than one state.

I disagree that no one talks to teachers. Maybe in your district. I dunno. Here - they have whole lot to say! (Sometimes too much! lol) From everything I've read, this Adminstration has made efforts to include TEACHERS in their planning.

Right now - the states CORE KNOWLEDGE initiative is still taking comments. Have you read it? Have you commented? DId you try and comment to Arne or Obama during their "listening stage" or just assume it would do no good. I know Obama actually reads at least some of his own mail - and tries to ensure that it ALL gets read by someone. . .

Let me ask you something --- if I said, right now - here's a check - build and staff your own school and set up how you think it should be done,. Then ANY KID WHO WANTS TO GO THERE CAN - without charge. Would you do it? And if not, why not? (And no, you can't use the "i only support public school" meme cause charters ARE public schools. 'k? )) Seriously -

It's because things are SO BAD in places that things HAVE TO CHANGE! Don't you agree? What would you do, if you could? If you had the money and the backing, what would you do. You don't have to save the world here, just your class, or your school, or district, or state - or heck - the whole US if you want. Let's hear some concrete ideas! Let's get the dialogue going on what we SHOULD BE DOING to help kids and not just gripping 'cause Obama's not doing it like we want him to.

Read the Plan: http://www2.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/blueprint/blueprint.pdf

[Catshrink]

63. It's a grudge.

[mzteris]

66. WTF would I have a grudge? That makes NOooooooo sense

what.so.ever.

Anyone who has bothered to learn anything about me knows that is absolutely ridiculous. You're so silly, sometimes, Cat. . .

[roguevalley]

115. unfortunately, they never just blame the district. they blame the teachers

always. Been in this racket for almost thirty years and have teachers out the wazoo in my family in all kinds of schools and the district NEVER, EVER takes the fall. EVER.

[mzteris]

131. Obama wants that to change!

Some short examples . . . (not in order)

districts whose schools, principals and teachers are not receiving the support they need to succeed may also face significant governance or staffing changes, including replacement of the superintendent.


Measuring and Supporting Schools, Districts, and States. State accountability systems will be asked to recognize progress and growth and reward success, rather than only identify failure. To ensure that accountability no longer falls solely at the doors of schools, districts and states will be held accountable for providing their schools, principals and teachers with the support they need to succeed. We will ask States to recognize and reward schools and districts making the most progress, provide flexibility for local improvement efforts, and focus the most rigorous support and interventions on the very lowest-performing schools and districts.

...
Measuring Success. We will require transparency around the key indicators of whether students and schools have effective teachers and principals and whether teachers have the professional supports they need. Both states and districts must publish report cards at least every two years that provide information on key indicators, such as teacher qualifications and teacher and principal designations of effectiveness; teachers and principals hired from high-performing pathways; teacher survey data on levels of support and working conditions in schools; the novice status of teachers and principals; teacher and principal attendance; and retention rates of teachers by performance level. States will also be required to report on the performance of teacher and principal preparation programs by their graduates’ impact on student growth and other measures, job placement, and retention.

...
But in the lowest-performing schools that have not made progress over time, we will ask for dramatic change. To ensure that responsibility for improving student outcomes no longer falls solely at the door of schools, we will also promote accountability for states and districts that are not providing their schools, principals, and teachers with the support they need to succeed.

...
We will call on states, districts and schools to aim for the ambitious goal of all students graduating or on track to graduate from high school ready for college and a career by 2020. Performance targets, based on whole-school and subgroup achievement and growth, and graduation rates, will guide improvement toward that ambitious goal, and those that are meeting all of their performance targets will be recognized and rewarded. States, districts and schools will look not just at absolute performance and proficiency, but at individual student growth and school progress over time, and the additional data described above, to guide local improvement and support strategies for schools.

....
We have to do more to ensure that every student has an effective teacher, every school has effective leaders, and every teacher and leader has access to the preparation, on-going support, recognition, and collaboration opportunities he or she need to succeed. Our proposals will ask states and districts to put in place the conditions that allow for teachers, principals, and leaders at all levels of the school system to get meaningful information about their practice, and support them in using this information to ensure that all students are getting the effective teaching they deserve.






ooops hit post before I meant to....

[mzteris]

34. well, you must admit - there ARE some of those

here on DU lately.

In fact, I absolutely know that one of the most outspoken people against Charters HATES Obama and always has. . .

[roguevalley]

117. so what? People can hate charters and other things too even as

some *love* charter schools and obama. its america.

[mzteris]

134. Fine - you can "hate charters" all you want

just don't try and keep the kids who want them out of them. m'k?

[roguevalley]

112. I read it because I POSTED IT in that other thread and it says that

poor performing schools (poor, urban, ethnic, all the usual shit) will be closed and teachers fired. Fuck that and anyone in gummit that holds to that. Check out the shit teachers face with Texas books and Kansas creationism. You need to be in the game to really know what you're talking about but your views are welcome anyway. Just so you know.

[mzteris]

135. I think maybe you need to check your reading

skills - 'cause what I read says nothing of the sort.

Take off your negative glasses for one damn moment and try and see it for what it IS. An attempt to IMPROVE the EDUCATION SYSTEM! You said yourself it was "really bad" in places!

That Texas shit and Kansas creationism - traditional public school boards. Supports the notion of CHARTERS imo. And homeschooling! (I bet you hate that, too.)

[AllyCat]

151. Don't hate all things Obama. I hate corporate takeover of things the gov't

should be running. Compulsory education should be run by us. If we are going to require it, we should run it.

This "blame the teachers" for everything bit that is so popular with the Admin right now is really not going to help anyone except to bust unions, privatize edumacation, and hurt kids.

[PVnRT]

157. As opposed to people who love all things Obama?

Your posts make it clear that you want a discussion amongst people who generally support this.

[stray cat]

17. And in the meantime some schools have fewer than 10% who can add, subtract, multiply and divide

and these are the ones who will need jobs in 5 years but are too poorly trained to do anything

[Bluebear]

24. Yeah, it's all the teacher's fault. Fuck them, fire them all. Whatever.

[mzteris]

38. No, it's NOT!

It's the system's fault for not giving the teachers the MONEY and the TOOLS they need to be as effective as they CAN BE! Giving teachers more flexibility and more support from the school, district, and state is going to have a positive effect on teachers and their students!

[RainDog]

26. what is the impact of poverty on those numbers?

honestly, why blame teachers when it's obvious that people who have access to resources do better than those who don't.

why look at schools instead of the living conditions of the poor in the U.S.?

[ibegurpard]

27. exactly

they're gutting the public school systems that are in the most desperate need for resources to get a foothold with their privatization scheme.

[mzteris]

41. actually they are giving more support and money

to the schools that need it most!

Have you READ IT??

[Bluebear]

29. You won't get an answer

Don't hold your breath, please.

[RainDog]

35. which is why this action is worse than no action

my sister was a school teacher. she taught in some of the harshest middle schools in her part of Texas. Girls who were pregnant because their stepfathers knocked them up, that sort of thing.

she's also a republican.

she never blamed the teachers for having to teach kids in such harsh conditions, even tho she didn't have to work. she worked to try to help.

but, even as a republican she knew the fault was with the social problems that kids deal with outside of class.

now my sister helps build houses for habitat for humanity.

our mother worked at a school. she had had to stop school at 3rd grade to work on her family's farm, so she wasn't teaching at that school. but every friday night my mother would take kids from the special ed classes with us to a ballgame. not because she was paid to do this, but because it was something someone could do to show some humanity toward others.

I miss that aspect of America under the neos, whether they're cons or libs.

[mzteris]

40. WTF is BLAMING TEACHERS??

It's NOT THEIR FAULT!

[Bluebear]

70. Well, they are the ones being fired!

[mzteris]

90. Along with PRINCIPALS

and other administrators who aren't DOING THEIR JOBS!

I'm sorry, if you can't do the job, then you SHOULD be fired!

That said. Deep breath. I don't think all teachers should be fired. Nor even MOST teachers. SOME OF THEM, hells yeah. I can name a few. I bet you can, too.

Everyone and their brother knows who the "good teachers" are and who the "bad teachers" are in their building. Why is it so difficult to get rid of them.

I shouldn't be drawn into this argument. You guys'll use it to say I think all teachers should be fired when I said only a handful at best should be.

READ THE DAMN THING BLUEBEAR! JUST READ IT! You don't even KNOW what you're arguing about because YOU HAVEN"T ACTUALLY READ THE DAMN THING!


:banghead: aaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghgggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh :banghead:

so mad i'm leaving out words! ooooooooooooo - you guys just stop and think for once!

[roguevalley]

119. and who fucking judges who is doing their job and who isn't? The

fucking tools who want to privatize the schools because we aren't turning out good enough "product"? Some of read it. Some of us have seen the same damned thing for thirty years and don't lecture us.

[mzteris]

133. READ THE PLAN!

jfhc - do I have to cut and paste EVERYTHING for you?

It says "who fucking judges" - you want to carp and complain or do you want to improve things?

You're either part of the "fucking problem" or part of the solution.

[roguevalley]

118. poverty is key. I have never not taught in high poverty areas and it

is GIGANTIC in the equation. but what would I know? I never taught at a charter school. :+

[mzteris]

136. ok - sorry for my earlier eruption -=

I thought you were cursing at me....

It talks about the high-poverty part. Didn't you like ANYTHING??? It talks about the WHOLE CHILD. and building support in the COMMUNITY! Don't you like those ideas? None at all??

Teaching at a Charter school is - Teaching. You have less red tape and more freedom and an opportunity to be more innovative. That's what all the one's I know tell me, anyway.

[Catshrink]

81. Clearly you don't know all of the factors involved in education

or choose to ignore those that don't fit your opinions. It's just easier for you to blame the teachers. That is simplistic and naive but you choose to believe it. Nothing is ever that easy but if your world is easier to cope with by boiling complex issues down to talking points that vilify one group of people, whatever.

[Forkboy]

22. Hope springs eternal.

[berni_mccoy]

30. Why are the people in this thread HOPING FOR A BATTLE? Shouldn't we be hoping for a solution?

There should be no battle between the White House and Teachers. It should be a coming together. But the people in this thread are openly mongering for a battle. Disgusting.

[Catshrink]

37. Yeah, it should be a coming together.

Unfortunately, the WH and Duncan have steamrolled this thing with no input from teachers, in fact, they've gone out of their way to blame teachers and discredit them. As long as Obama-Duncan praise mass firings of teachers, with no distinction between good and bad, there will be bad blood between Obama-Duncan and the teachers' associations.

[RainDog]

43. this is the truth. Obama is the one who trashed the teachers, not the other way around

it's a bit disingenuous to then come back and ask why people think Obama is out to score political points off the backs of teachers when he's already done the same.

[mzteris]

55. No he didn't. Tell me - specifically -

where he "trashed the teachers".

[RainDog]

61. regarding the wholesale firing of teachers

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/education-secretary-duncan/obamas-unfortunate-comments-on.html

In her new book, “The Death and Life of the Great American School System,” education historian Diane Ravitch notes that studies conducted by the Washington-based nonprofit Center on Education Policy, concluded that restructuring “very rarely” works in improving student achievement enough to meet the requirements of the federal No Child Left Behind law.

So when Obama and Duncan talk about firing all the teachers and replacing them as if it is a last resort worth doing, they have it all wrong.

It is a last resort, but it doesn’t solve the problem and creates havoc not only for the teachers--many of whom do a good job--but for kids who have enough problems without being subjects in endless educational experiments.

[mzteris]

65. That's a community call -

no one wants to "FIRE ALL THE TEACHERS". It's ONE option out of four for schools/teachers - that have five years to turn it around.

Diane Ravitch still calls for accountability and what some call "merit pay". She thinks Charters are a viable option if done properly. I take exception to a lot of her "claims" about Charters, though. It seems she repeats talkingpoints that may have once been true about a handful of schools before changes were made. The other thing about Charters, they're only as good as the states allow them to be.

[Bluebear]

>no one wants to "FIRE ALL THE TEACHERS".< But they did. And Obama PRAISED THE MOVE

[mzteris]

91. if you believe it went down like that

you'll believe whatever you're told to believe. whatev....

[roguevalley]

122. obama praised it. Don't you get it? Teachers are the backbone of the

party and the army that helped him get elected. Do you seriously think we would be so pissed if he didn't? Are are we stupid and you need to show us the light? I read his reaction. Fuck that.

[mzteris]

137. I don't think it had that import -

I see where you - and others might take it that way, but some people don't. Sorry.

[roguevalley]

143. I don't care really about the reactions of others. Teacher's reactions

are the ones that count. They are in the bullseye. Truly. You cannot know how hard this job is if you didn't do it over a few decades and remember how it was and how it is now. We don't need a president who didn't teach telling us and his minions how it will be. We already know. He didn't talk to one teacher from that school before he praised their firing.

[mzteris]

145. I know teachers who have a different

POV than you do. Quite a lot in fact. Do their opinions count? (And no, they're not all charter school teachers. :P )

[roguevalley]

152. I like to listen to other's pov's. However, we can line up our armies

and it won't mean a thing. There are teachers who never have kids they can't turn their back on, parents who come in drunk or never come in, autistic-defiantly non-compliant-juvenile delinquent kids in the same class who can't get help because JD is not a mental illness/etc-thieves, dreamers who can't attend, asperger and all the rest mixed in with kids who are just fine and dandy. And it isn't a matter of teachers caring or not. Teachers care. Some are better at the job than others but I never met anyone in nearly 30 years who didn't care.

I would prefer to talk to your teachers and get their views without the filter of a parent. I will let you in on a little secret that other teachers get loud and clear but almost never do parents find out. We don't talk about this the way we do together when a parent is around, even good parents. Views without parents around, even good ones, are totally different than when they are hanging out. There is a good probability that you will never truly know how teachers really feel. It comes with the turf.

[RainDog]

82. firing all the teachers is an option?

why? what possible good could that serve?

why not fire all the parents? put the kids in boarding school with the VERY SAME TEACHERS, a safe environment, with food security, with opportunities to experience good things in the world... and I can assure you that the vast majority of them will thrive.

In fact, look at stats about school funding. The article I linked to talked about the "miracle" of teachers suddenly becoming excellent when they move from teaching impoverished students to teaching middle class ones.

I mean, WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?

WHY blame teachers for poverty?

Why blame schools for poverty? Why not look at the system in which these people are born and look at ways to incorporate them into the system to that they have a stake in it too.

[mzteris]

94. I don't know why.

Maybe if ALL the teachers at a particular school was totally crappy?? (it could happen . . . i suppose, though highly unlikely. )

That "fire the parent" canard"? May as well trot out the "fire the kids" meme some say in here. :eyes:

Did you READ THE BLUEPRINT??

It talks about providing EQUITABLE RESOURCES to high risk high poverty schools! It talks about poverty. It talks about community support. It talks about things like nutrition and economy and conditions that kids live in. They want to address those issues! Can you at least admit that THAT would be a good thing??

NO ONE IS BLAMING THE TEACHERS (except maybe a few that don't seem to be able to understand plain english! :eyes:)

just read it. its ONLY 45 pages - and half of that is PICTURES! it's not that complicated.

It's simple.

Help Kids.
Help Teachers.
Help Schools - equity and opportunity for all - including MORE FOR POOR SCHOOLS!
Raise Standards - reward the good, support financially and otherwise those who need it to improve, weed out those who can't or won't improve (after FIVE years!)
Promote ingenuity and innovation.
Support the WHOLE CHILD, and help Communities overall.

[mzteris]

51. teachers did have input .

They still have an opportunity for input. Teachers input will be sought for all aspects. There is still time for YOUR PERSONAL input on the Core Standards - I've posted plenty of links - have you read them yet? Have you offered YOUR INPUT on them?

Have you offered ANY INPUT on this plan other than a blanket condemnation? NO. You haven't. I'd be surprised if you've actually even READ IT. And if you did, it was only to look for the things you DON"T LIKE! You don't like charters, okay. That's one small freaking paragraph. What about everything else?

Do you mean to tell me you can not find ONE REDEEMING THING in this entire 45 pages? Really? Come on. Just one little positive. . . surely even you can admit to SOME of the strengths of this plan, can't you? Or maybe you can't because you're afraid of admitting just maybe !gasp! Obama can do SOMETHING right!!

How 'bout Cat? Have you read it? Can you debate SPECIFICS?

[mzteris]

47. A - frickin'-men!

:yourock:

[RainDog]

50. but why do you ignore that Obama came out attacking teachers?

do you really think he didn't expect to get this response?

[Catshrink]

53. It's convenient

for "ignored" to ignore Obama-Duncan's first salvo. Acknowledging it doesn't fit the "charters good, public schools bad" agenda.

[mzteris]

57. He didn't. n/'t

[RainDog]

64. well, teachers are taking it as a slam

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2010-03-05-teachers-fired_N.htm

[mzteris]

68. Because some people WANT them to!

And they're getting all whipped up by a few instead of reading and evaluating the FACTS for themselves!

[Bluebear]

71. Whipped up by a few - AND FIRED. What's the matter with you?

This is not about whipped up emotions, this is about teachers being fired in blanket waves.

[Catshrink]

75. Bluebear

I think you're realizing what's up. Sometimes a rational argument just isn't possible.

[Bluebear]

76. It's impossible.

I had to /ignore to stop the noise :)

[Catshrink]

77. Sanity is best

:evilgrin:

[mzteris]

97. You should try it sometime, cat.

As I remember you were the one berating and insulting a "rookie teacher" basically saying they weren't good enough to lick your shoes because they had the !gasp! audacity to contradict you. Way to go, teach! I hope you're better in the classroom than you are on these boards at rational and logical discourse.

[mzteris]

96. you can say THAT again.

Some want to kneejerk reject anything they don't ike and throw out the baby with the bathwater.

There is more than one "teacher" on this board who is "anti-Obama" and always has been and will say and do anything to "whip up" people against him.

[mzteris]

95. BLANKET WAVES?

BLANKET?? really one school in one town out of 100,000 schools. And THAT is because the idiot who was SUPPOSED to be negotiating for the teachers, f'd up her job and got them all fired. I'm abettin' they all go back to work cause they DIDN"T WANT TO FIRE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE! Which they COULD have done, but didn't!

god be informed why doncha?

[roguevalley]

123. bluebear, don't even try. I'm putting that one on ignore. I can't take

the innanity anymore.

[Bluebear]

150. I did the same. Enough already.

[Forkboy]

56. Berni, you stand up for what you think is right.

Where's your peaceful "coming together" threads on DK? Be honest here...few, if any, exist, correct? You can't have it both ways. You can't attack what YOU think is wrong and then call for the fuzzies when it's what someone else thinks is wrong. Look at many, many of your own threads and then tell us how they're calling for a "coming together". I truly appreciate the spirit, but it's not a one way street. You can't harp on people for standing up for what they think is right when you do the same.

[mzteris]

59. standing up for what you think is right

and defending your own POV is NOT the same as trashing the other person's POV.

I've tried REPEATEDLY to have a dialogue about education but am constantly put on the defensive by name-calling and denigration of my values just because the other person doesn't like my ideas about methodology.

[Forkboy]

60. You'll have to take that up with those doing it to you.

I haven't seen your posts so it's not fair to comment one way or the other. I was merely responding to Berni. He's started many threads attacking what he thinks is wrong, and not always in the nicest ways, and I don't think his response would be the same were this thread attacking DK instead of Obama. I've been given reason today to think Berni means well (from Berni himself) and I'm just asking him for consistency in his requests for coming together. I hope he asks me for the same when he sees an inconsistency of my own.

[berni_mccoy]

67. I'm not hoping for a battle between Obama and DK. DK brought it on himself.

And btw, I'm not the only one who feels the way I do about DK. Plenty of other Progressives, Liberals and Democrats are ticked off at Kucinich.

[Forkboy]

73. And don't you see how many feel Obama is bringing this battle on himself?

To be honest, even if you don't, don't you see how others might not agree? Why are your attacks justified but the ones you don't like "disgusting"? I know how you feel about DK, but again, you want the warm and fuzzies when the attack is aimed at Obama. When it's aimed at DK you're on the front line. It makes your calls for a coming together ring extremely hollow. We can ALL justify our attacks, no matter who they're aimed at. You accept one but decry the other. Nothing wrong with that, we all do it, but don't tell us you want peace when you're busy reloading your gun. :shrug:

[Bluebear]

93. :crickets:

[mzteris]

101. it shouldn't BE a "battle"

at least a battle between teachers and Obama, but a battle TOGETHER to overcome the flaws that currently exist in the system.

I swear, if people would just take the time to really read and understand what's being said here, and stop focusing on the part that says - IF you can't get it right in FIVE YEARS, then . . . - then MAYBE we coud get someplace.

Those "firings" /turnarounds/charters - would NOT BE NECESSARY if we can get this RIGHT. And the "blueprint" spells it out in quite good detail.


Support the kids.
Support the teachers.
Support the community.

What's not to like about it?

This is so frustrating. I want what's best for kids. Period. And whatever it takes to get EVERY KID the good and proper education they each deserve - that's what I stand for. Why doesn't everyone feel this way?

I'm really really really confused by people's response. I mean even if they don't like what - I think it's TWO PARAGRAPHS - maybe three - out of the whole thing - can't they at least support what IS GOOD ABOUT IT?

Are they so desperate to be "right" about "THEIR THING" that they can't even begin to consdier that just MAYBE there are SOME GOOD IDEAS IN THERE???

[roguevalley]

124. you don't get it. people teach because they want good for kids. You

seem to think that what other people -especially the teachers on the threads that disagree with you- don't have the good in mind the way you do. TEACH FOR FUCKS SAKE. Teach as long as us, take the blows for kids, try and make change and get back to me in ten years minimum. Don't lecture us. Don't berate us about our ability to read and assimilate information or draw conclusions about what we see and hear and maybe I will give a damn about what you think.

[mzteris]

138. exactly! Teachers should be allowed to TEACH!!

SOME of the "teachers" here on DU - I can guarantee you that they don't have the "good" in mind. If you don't know that, then you haven't read their threads. Hell, it sounds like they HATE kids!! It's awful really. I wouldn't let my kids anywhere NEAR a couple of the so-called "teachers" on here. But who knows - they may not even BE Teachers - but just stirring up trouble. I dunno.

I've been helping to raise kids for about FORTY YEARS. I think that entitles me to an opinion.

[roguevalley]

147. I've watched my dad drive a truck for forty years but it doesn't mean

my opinion of truck driving is on a par with his. I never drove 2 million miles without a crash. Raising kids is one thing, teaching them is another. I don't denegrate parenting. I respect it. But it doesn't mean that a parent's opinion is sacrosanct. It isn't a horizontal process, teaching=parenting=teaching. Parents are a kids first teacher but they won't be fired or abused or whatever if they fail. They'll just have rotten kids. No one is evaluating you year to year for parenting. I got evaluated every year for having 30 kids and how they progressed. they are not the same.

Your opinion is fine but it is an opinion. An opinion. It hasn't got the same weight as someone who teaches. My skiing hasn't got the same weight as Lyndsey Vonn. These things aren't equal. Trust me.

[Lorien]

100. Plenty of DLCers and fanboys are ticked off at Kucinich

that bunch would cheer if Obama decided to bomb Canada.

[Marr]

99. Oh, brother.

:eyes:

'Help me get these boxing gloves off so I can explain why violence is a sin'.

[roguevalley]

120. shutting down that school for factors beyond their control and firing

all the teachers, effectively branding even the ones who were trying and I KNOW most were kills them in the profession forever. We are used to being beaten up but now we aren't taking it. People need to get used to it. Hitting us won't be as much fun anymore because of it.

[RubyDuby in GA]

33. I think Mr. Obama should ask former Democratic governor of GA Roy Barnes what happens when you

piss off teachers.

But just in case he doesn't ask FORMER Governor Roy Barnes what happens, I'll tell you. They send you packing!

[bvar22]

72. Good.

I know which side I'm on.
SOLIDARITY.

I've had my fill of these DINO/DLC/"Centrist" creeps.
Fuck them ALL.
This IS WAR.

[Bluebear]

74. SOLIDARITY

[bvar22]

78. Harry!

"When given the choice between a Republican, and a Democrat who acts like a Republican, the voters will choose the Republican every time." ---Harry Truman

QED Massachusetts

[mzteris]

102. People die in wars -

Children are especially vulnerable.

How about lets all work together. There is NOTHING in these documents about "BLAMING THE TEACHERS".

Please read it. I think you'll find that - despite the few things you DON"T like - there is plenty in there TO LIKE.

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/blueprint/blueprint.pdf

[bvar22]

125. This is Political WAR.

I won't be found on the side of the Union Busters.

Every single person that works for wages AND their families OWES something to the UNIONS.

[mzteris]

146. it's not union busting.

That's a myth.

There are union charter schools - heck there are charters set up by and run by UNIONS. And, there are non-union traditional public school teachers. The "anti-union thing" is bogus.

[earth mom]

80. It'a ALL about Union Busting. Obama's hero is Reagan, don't forget.

:puke:

[RainDog]

83. he is choosing the wrong battle here. n/t

[Catshrink]

84. I'd just like to know what we can do.

Can teachers ever get united enough to do anything? A one-day national strike? I just can't see it happening.

Obama-Duncan have set us up as the enemy of education. I can't see them backtracking on that enough to have a meaningful discussion with teachers about what would improve educational outcomes in our schools. Of course, they don't want to hear what we have to say either.

[mzteris]

105. You're your OWN worst enemy.

No one has "set you up for ANYTHING" - if you'd read the damn thing, y ou'd realize that they're putting measures in place to support teachers and help them help kids. To raise the PROFESSIONAL STANDING of teachers so that other people will FINALLY recognize teachers for the professionals they are (or in some cases, supposed to be. )

[mzteris]

104. No. it's not.

Where does this meme COME FROM?

[lebkuchen]

175. It IS all about union busting

Teachers are the enemy in the US as a result.

[TexasObserver]

98. Number of teachers I know who are happy with the President: ZERO

Friends and family public school teachers, from their 20s to their 60s, think he's lost his mind and betrayed their support.

It's anecdotal. Feel free to give your own.

[mzteris]

107. Haven't met a teacher yet

in my community who is unhappy. And yeah - we are 100% UNION here!

Of course, we're a good school district so they're not afraid of anything. Maybe that's the difference. hmmmmmm......

[TexasObserver]

111. Good school districts = wealthiest school districts

hmmmmm ....

[mzteris]

139. that's why they're insisting on EQUITY -

equity of money, equipment, teachers and principals. They have to "get as good" or BETTER than the "wealthy schools".

Read the plan - it's in there.

[roguevalley]

126. and maybe your district is lucky and you never had to face the

problems you're hollering about first hand. Good for you. keep insulting us. we have seen it all before. daily even. truly.

[mzteris]

140. How is wanting to help you guys look past

the knee jerk reactionand find what is good in there.

FGFS - it can't ALL BE AWFUL. Can't you find ONE THING? JUST ONE???

I've been exposed to - hm - let's see - I think twelve school DISTRICTS in um - seven states, and 20 some odd schools.

[roguevalley]

153. Oh please. "Can't you find ONE THING? JUST ONE?"

Who the hell are you to lecture me? Or any of us? Who are you to decide who is good and who isn't? You must think this is the only initiative that most of us have ever seen. Please. Knee jerk reaction? What the hell is your point? We have read it. And since we don't have the glee that you seem to have, something is wrong with us. Actually, what is wrong with you? there are teachers here discussing their profession and its problems and you are deaf. Deaf. Oh well. I have seen a million zealous parents who thought they knew it all. I don't get excited about outlines from people who have a history of turning schools into factories where the product is homogenized and sifted and all the rest. Sorry.

[Catshrink]

168. Someone above said something that made sense about this...

paid poster. That could be the only explanation for the continual distortions, lies, and inability to see/listen to the other side. There is no reasoning here. Ignore is your friend. Thanks for trying but keep your sanity -- this one isn't worth it.

[bvar22]

169. White House "Message Discipline"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-scahill/rahm-emanuels-think-tanke_b_185203.html

[Bluebear]

170. :nodding:

[autorank]

121. "Standards" result in a decline in education

They're the darling of right wing governors in failed education programs around the country.

Remember George Allen, R-VA. He loved them. Now the state "teaches to the test" and real education
suffers, particularly in the rural and poor areas. Then there's the other "George" of Texas who
was just wild about standards. Their schools are bottom dwellers in national ratings.

Obama has adopted a right wing strategy for a constituency that supported him. What's the point?

[mzteris]

141. Where's the facepalm smiley

when you need it?

[Hannah Bell]

179. you need *more* stupid smileys? your cheap overuse of the rofl is already legendary.

[The Straight Story]

159. The dems were pro OBE back in the 90's (Outcome based education)

The right was against, then when power shifted so did who liked it and who didn't....go figure.

[DailyGrind51]

158. Obama seems to be pandering to "the Right's" antipathy to the NEA,

and, like his refusal to prosecute Bush-era war criminals, it will get him nothing!

[Bluebear]

173. +1

[lebkuchen]

174. Obama going to war with his "bread and butter"

Meanwhile, Dick Cheney, the country's biggest law breaker, gets a pass.

The US ceases to make sense to me.

[Bluebear]

176. mmmm lebkuchen :)

[lib2DaBone]

182. They have almost eradicated Unions in America.....No organized resistance possible...

..Mission Accomplished