Ok so I get this whole thing about catching "christians" in hypocrisy

[Perky]

Some one who publicly confesses the Christian faith opens themselves up for ridicule and scorn for "moral failure" and hypocrisy.

(thanks ever so much to the Christian coalition and the moral majority)

The media is full of stories about this so there in no reason to expect DU to be all that different.

But as I type this I am looking at the top of the screen and I see this:


PASTOR Naboth Tumuheirwe of the Redeemed Church of Christ assaults wife
Good Morning! - Morning Headlines
Woman accused of conning church pastor with jewelry
Rudy sez "I hate abortion"...
Marrero Temple of Christ Church minister pleads guilty
Church of England Vicar Jailed For Abusing Young Boys
c-span - caller calls condi a "camp follower"
Democrats Not Backing Down on Iraq Bill
Reunited family faces media glare after rescuing children from religious cult

Now the thing about this that not one of the highlighted posts has anything to do with politics or religious influence on political discourse.

It just about Christians being accused of doing bad things. Ok we get it....Some Christians do bad...even awful things. SOme Christians are hypocrites. WE GOT IT.

But here is the thing: Not all Christians are Repukes and many are fed up with the crap of the last generation and the influence of the Dobsonites.

We should feel free to blast away at the politics of the RW, but what are well meaning, disenchanted, christians going to think when they find DU?


:shrug:

[acmavm]

1. One would think that non-believers never do anything wrong.

Wouldn't one?

[Perky]

4. or Hindus or Moslems or Jews or athiests

[pink-o]

10. Non-believers don't judge others...

...and act like they have the moral high ground.

Don't you get it? It's not the sin, it's the hypocricy. It's the fact that other people follow these "Christian" leaders, give them power and money, and believe in their perfect morality. And while they're judging you for being gay or having sex outside of marriage, or aborting a pregnancy that you can't bring to term for very good reasons, they're out there doing a lot worse, more hurtful things.

Non-believers don't pretend to be superior to others just because they repeat the Xian talking points. We don't care what anyone else does as long as it doesn't hurt others. And that miserable, sanctimonious dogma that passes for Jesus's word hurts a lot of other people, so I will continue to point it out when these "moralists" live an immoral life.

[Perky]

24. pardon me

don't you think that posting these stories ad nauseum is doing precisely that?

[seabeyond]

26. and though atheist claims to be nonjudgmental, i hear many on this board

with such scorn to those that believe in god. so i dont necessarily think that this poster is on top of it anymore than the christian that says we are not judgmental. because per christ we are not suppose to be. doesnt mean it isnt happening. it is not owning truth on both sides

[pink-o]

27. I see it as bringing truth to power

First of all, I don't believe the organised religion that passes for Christianity in this country has anything to do with the teachings of Jesus. That said, these "Christians" have far too much power, far too much ability to get into our private lives and dictate the level of "morality" As long as they are the bullies, judging and condemning the rest of us in the Moral Court, then their own hypocricy needs to constantly be pointed out.

James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Ted Haggard, et al--they have a lot of followers listening to their dogma. Until people realise they're just as flawed as the rest of us, that power is gonna continue.

And I for one don't want to live in a world where their word is moral law.

[seabeyond]

28. i perfectly agree with this post n/t

[alarimer]

35. they also seem to have a persecution completx

How can a group that's in the majority claim to be persecuted? All of these hypocritical presidential candidates (the GOP specifically) claim we need to protect the religious from those godless atheists. But these idiots fail to realize (or deliberately ignore the fact) that this is not a Christian nation; it was nor founded as such. It is SECULAR and I, for one, am going to see to it that it remains so.

And then there are the whiners "Those godless atheists are picking on Christians again" (as if atheists haven't had their share of being picked on).

But posting articles like those mentioned in the OP is only showing the hypocrisy of at least some so-called Christians.

[acmavm]

58. Yeah, you guys weild a pretty wide brush when you're painting

all Christians as the devil's advocates.

[JuniperLea]

103. Where does it say "all" Christians?

All I see is talk of the false Christians.

[POAS]

160. And you seem to have

picked up a very broad brush yourself and then dipped it into a can of persecution complex.

[JuniperLea]

102. I agree 100% with every word n/t

[papau]

118. It does not bring "truth to power" as it is broadbrush - but I agree with the rest of the post n/t

n/t

[mwb970]

162. Right-wing Christians appear hypocritical to me.

I don't believe the organised religion that passes for Christianity in this country has anything to do with the teachings of Jesus.

This is the part that gets me. Jesus never mentioned abortion or gay sex even once, and he talks about helping the poor constantly. But the Christian Right is obsessed with abortion and gay sex, and they never mention anything about poverty! They also have converted the Prince Of Peace into some kind of gun-totin' Warrior Jesus that allows them to see Bush's Iraq War as a Holy Crusade with no moral dimension to it.

To these anti-Jesus "Christians", there's apparently nothing evil about Bush's War. Or Halliburton's profiteering. Or Rove's politicizing. Or Cheney's lies. Or Gonzales's weasely squirming. None of their energy goes into improving our government and our nation. It's just abortion and gay sex with them. How sad.

[POAS]

159. We live in a

society dominated by the Christian sects. As the dominant force in this society and in this government it is natural for those who oppose many of the things the leaders are doing and they happen to be Christians (or at least claim to be).

Part of that criticism and opposition is rightly aimed at the hypocritical actions of the leaders of the religion that dominates our society. Rather than get all ehin skinned at such criticism you'd be better served by changing the people that have claimed leadership of your chosen religion. If you believe that they are acting in accordance with your beliefs maybe you are in the wrong place here. On the other hand if you disagree with those "leaders" then work for change within your religious community so that it reflects your beliefs.

Attacking the posters here has zero effect on changing the perception that the Christian leadership in this country has made a pact with the devil. If you want to change that perception then throw out the money changers in your midst!

[CBGLuthier]

50. Thanks for the laugh of the day

non believers don't judge?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You ever read any posts here at DU?

Some of the atheist group are like former smokers. Real assholes about it.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

74. That view oversimplifies things greatly, IMO

Religion goes back to the earliest origins of man. They weren't all fools. It has deep roots in human culture. Referring to gods as sky beings and such ignores a large percentage of human history and culture and sociology. The intellectual stupidity there is much greater than any stupidity out of which people might believe in ghosts, gods, or psychic premonitions.

[mitchum]

96. I never called them "stupid" or "fools"...

I believe my term was "lunatics"
"Ignorant" would also work since many religious beliefs arose out of an attempt to "understand" the workings of the world. Well, that part of religion which isn't rooted in the desire to control others through their fear of death...

[CBGLuthier]

90. Thank you for proving my point

in the usual condescending way.

I myself am an atheist but I see nothing to be gained in belittling several billion people with smug ass superiority.

[mitchum]

95. Uh...yes...I intended to prove your point...

I do not deny that I judge people who believe in an invisible skygod. And just WHAT is wrong with that? Just because you call my attitude "condescending", doesn't make it so.
I also judge people who get into ridiculous debates about whether Batman can beat up Spiderman. The difference is that the latter group doesn't have the blood of many on their hands.

[CBGLuthier]

97. Your attitude as stated

Is half the world or more are lunatics.

If you feel that is defensible, well, OK, fine.

[mitchum]

107. It's a hell of a lot more defensible than "proof" of magic skygods

[conscious evolution]

165. Frankly,half the world is loony. nt

Anyone that tells children some invisible sky guy is responsible for everything is just plain loony.Anyone telling children that a giant rabbit comes by and leaves baskets of candy or a fat guy in a sliegh pulled by a bunch of magical reindeer flys around the world giving out presents is not right in the head.Especially since these things have nothing to do with the supposed events that are being celebrated.

The fact that It is all part of an deliberate indoctrination process makes it that much more disgusting.

[papau]

116. LOL - nope - not "condescending" at all - I'm curious - do tribes have "the blood of many on their

hands", or is it just religion?

"invisible skygod" is getting old and has always been not related to any God belief that I know of in the 20th and now 21st century, and certainly not any Christian or Jewish or Muslim belief since the get go of those faiths. Any chance someone with talent in this area could come up with a new phrase to mock believers?

[POAS]

161. Mythology works for me BUT

I would never use it in a mocking way.

I just hope you give me the courtesy of allowing me to disagree with your mythology without calling me names or ridiculing my beliefs!

[mitchum]

175. Hey, since "invisible skygods" mocks ancient superstitions/methods of...

control which still flourish today, I see no reason to update the pejorative. And "Invisible skygods" just flows off the tongue far better than "superstitions of raggedy ass herdsmen" or "Nazarene Death Cultists" or "Roman VooDoo"

BOOGA! BOOGA!

[mitchum]

182. Or how about "suckers" or "marks"?

Can a unicorn beat up a dragon? How about a unicorn AND a pixie?

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

110. 'You wonder why there are other atheists who get a bad rap as well'

Hmm. In a post complaining why some Christians get a bad rap. I'm getting dizzy.

[knight_of_the_star]

120. I don't like zealots of any stripe

I don't care if they're Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Republican, Democrat, Marxist, whatever. The only differences between zealots of all groups is the coloring to me, they all act the same, they all have the same, smug, holier-than-thou attitude, and they refuse to use their brains on any meaningful level. The way I see it is anyone who has to talk trash and drag down the beliefs of another must be VERY insecure in their own beliefs. Irrational behavior should not be tolerated from ANY group, regardless of what they say and believe in, differences of opinion are not an excuse for lack of civility and decency.

That and I see no problem with calling out uncouth or uncivil behaviors, I'm not interested in changing anyone's beliefs, just making a point that uncivil behavior should not be tolerated for ANY reason.

[etherealtruth]

123. Touche

Overbearing boorish behavior is never a good thing ... I think we see evidence of it from individuals from all groups, belief systems ...

Funny, they never seem to recognize it in themselves:shrug:

[knight_of_the_star]

141. That seems to be people in general

Self-reflection is not as easy for people as casting stones at others.

[JuniperLea]

106. That's just rude

And you should do a little soul searching yourself for two reasons.

First, everybody needs to believe in something. It's a human trait.

Second, you might look within yourself to see why it is you have none of that ol' liberal "live and let live" in you.

You are human, right?

[mitchum]

108. It is indeed rude, and I make no apologies for that

Where is the proof that "everybody needs to believe in something"?
Of course, I'm human. But then again, I also don't bash my enemies in the head with rocks nor do I rut with females than I am able run down and capture. Just a couple of other "intrinsically human traits" that I (and many others) apparently no longer succumb to.

[knight_of_the_star]

121. I agree

Anyone who has to trash-talk on the beliefs of others must be VERY insecure in their own beliefs.

[mitchum]

183. Booga! Booga!

[roguevalley]

139. judge the lunatics and remember they aren't the rest of us.

[spoony]

146. Ahh, good old fashioned hate speech

wonderful to see on DU.

[acmavm]

56. Sure you do. Constantly. What else do you call the moral

superiority act that goes on around here?

[alarimer]

63. Bullshit

What a load of whiny, "they're picking on me" crap.

More of the persecution complex at work.

[acmavm]

72. CASE CLOSED!

[pampango]

76. For what you say to be true, you would have to make a case

that many posters here at DU post harsh judgments of the actions and hypocrisy of others.

Surely you jest. (Actually, surely I jest, since that is what most of us spend the day doing - praising the speeches/actions of our guys/gals while condemning the speeches/actions of the other side's guys/gals.) How dare you claim that is an indication of our moral superiority. It is simply proof that we are better than they are. ;)

[pampango]

60. We should not judge people for their sins, but it is acceptable

to judge them for their hypocrisy? I just want to be sure that I understand what I, as a progressive, non-believer, am allowed to judge and which I should "live and let live."

If it is acceptable to judge the hypocrisy of a RW politician and his/her extramarital affairs is it acceptable for the other side to judge my guy, who is a "man of the people" for his expensive haircuts and large house? After all they would not be judging a rich man's decision to pay a lot for a haircut or own a large home, since most rich republicans do the same thing, they would only be judging his hypocrisy.

[alarimer]

65. You aren't allowed to criticize Christians at all apparently

they are so sensitive, don't you know?

Never mind that most of those cited in the articles are behaving in a decidedly "non-Christian" manner- any criticism is automatically assumed to be bashing.

[pampango]

75. Absent any advice from "pink-o" I will take yours to heart.

I will feel free to judge "non-Christian" behavior (which could be equated with unethical or immoral behavior whether you are religious or not), just as I will feel free to judge the non-"man of the people" or non-"green" behavior of some of my own candidates. ;)

[pink-o]

113. Actually, I don't like to give advice..

..only opinions.

;-)

After all, I wouldn't want to be accused of acting judgemental!

(But seriously--of COURSE I think my way is righter than anyone else's--FOR MYSELF!!!!!) I would never consider foisting my life-choices on any one of you. But when I look around and see those who claim to have a belief in a power that espouses LOVE and ACCEPTANCE--and those people condemn others for traits THAT THEY'RE BORN WITH and can do nothing to modify, yes it infuriates me! And I will not be silent when I see these fake Christians getting into everyone's business.

Especially when they don't live up to their own standards of morality.

[LanternWaste]

85. You gotta be kidding me

Non believers don't judge others? Non-believers don't act like they walk the high moral ground? You gotta be kidding me, right? You think those issues are tied to the religious and the religious only? Sheesh!

[Dorian Gray]

91. In response:

" Non-believers don't judge others...
...and act like they have the moral high ground."


Of course some of them do. They are human beings. All of us judge others. Whether we judge them morally, intellectually or spiritually... who the hell knows? But there are certainly non-believers who judge others to be inferior to them. And there are Christians who do the same.

There are assholes in every group.

[papau]

122. I agree n/t

n/t

[T Wolf]

Maybe it is time for Christians to "take back their religion" from the

christists who have hijacked it.

[Perky]

8. Check out Sojourners

sojo.net

[FloridaJudy]

143. I'll second that: Sojourners rocks.

I somehow wound up on their mailing list, probably because we are on the same side of many issues. Every once in a while, I think, "Should I tell these nice people that I'm not a Christian, so they can remove me from their list?" I usually think that just before they send me information on some Progressive cause that it's helpful for me to know.

I don't believe in angels, but if I did, Sojourners would definitely be on their side.

[papau]

14. Everything comes down to percentages - and there's no correlation between

Christian leaders with access to children and these crimes - at least I have seen no studies (and I assure you studies are out there that attempt to connect belief to wrong doing) that show a higher percentage of the non-believer "leader/monied person" with access to children, or a lower percentage, doing these crimes relative to Christian leaders with access to children.

Christians have no more need to "take back their religion" from the
"christists" who have hijacked it, then secular humanists need to take back there ideas from those that use them to justify "libertarian needs to motivate the poor", or a better world through more jobs via tax cuts for the rich.

[KiraBS]

164. None fundie Christians are very busy...

They are going out and feeding the homeless, campaigning for people to live simply http://www.livesimply.org.uk/as a response to global warming and world poverty, selling Fair Trade coffee, wine, honey and chocolate at church on Sundays.
They are caring for the sick and the elderly, building Inter-Faith relationships and many are working
hard to undo the damage that the Christian right in America is doing to Christians all over the world.

[papau]

2. I also noticed these posts - but it is up to the moderators to determine what DU's

reaction to these daily tone setting posts will be.

Like yourself I want DU to advance the cause of the Democratic Party's election chances - and these posts are worrisome - not any one in particular - but the daily flood as to the tone of the board toward Christian Democratic Party members.

[Perky]

12. Does it make you feel unwanted by the DU community?

[papau]

15. Smile - unwanted at least by a part of the DU community :-)

:-)

[Goblinmonger]

41. Oooooh

:nopity:

I mean, seriously, your religion is in the majority. How many non-Christians are there in the leadership of the country? I know, it may not be your brand of Christianity, but you got all the power. But there are actually people on DU that question portions of that religion and you let out an audible *GASP* at how that makes you feel uncomfortable. Perhaps you could take some of your reflection time and realize that is how a great deal of atheists feel on a daily basis every minute of their public lives (except when they are on DU, I guess, since this is a hot-bed of anti-Christian atheism according to many).

[trotsky]

45. "How many non-Christians are there in the leadership of the country?"

To hell with that, GM. How many non-Christians are there in the leadership of the DEMOCRATIC PARTY?!? How many are currently running for president? Certain folks fret and worry about what kind of effect DU has on potential Democratic voters - I'd say none because virtually all our candidates for all offices are Christians. Why don't these same folks worry what message that sends to potential non-Christian Democratic voters?

[papau]

111. When 94 out of 100 persons are not atheist, how many atheist political types do you expect? n/t

n/t

[Goblinmonger]

133. Well, the obvious seems to be at least 6%.

Which is a hell of a lot more than there are now.

[papau]

144. I suspect there are indeed 6% - but as was noted-saying you're atheist does not get many votes but

I just hope - and believe - that it does not lose many votes other than the usual RW vote against those with "wrong" beliefs (which includes Catholic, etc.)

I suspect there are a lot of deist/agnostic, and even - atheist! - in public life who chose to not have the hassle of folks knowing their belief or non-beliefs - indeed the more you know about someone the more reason are out there to not vote for them (as Hillary and other "old" names are finding out in their contest with new face Obama).

[papau]

112. DU is a "hot-bed of anti-Christian atheism" ?- no - but for some reason mocking posts are common n/t

n/t

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

3. Wouldn't "well meaning" Christians be forgiving and non judgmental?

:shrug: MKJ

[spoony]

147. So it's perfectly acceptable to abuse them

after all, they'll forgive you. I hope to God you aren't married.

[BOSSHOG]

5. Your next to the last paragraph

is where I fit in. I like to spread the news of what the "dobsonites" do and what they plan to do to rile up people like you and me. The "dobsonites" would like to take DU off the cybernet. They'd like us all to go to one and only one church and worship their way and live our lives their way. (In that vain, I guess I'd have to be a wife beating, sodomite, pedophile, thief; and thats just today's menu.)

And the "politics of the RW" is the politics of the "dobsonites."

And why would a well meaning, disenchanted christian want to come to DU? What, pray tell, would make them disenchanted?

Love to you My Dear, but I think the "dobsonites" are the number one domestic enemy of our constitution and I think it is fair to air their dirty laundry.

[Perky]

7. I agree but these stories I sighted are not their dirty laundry

[hobbit709]

6. I have met very few people that I would call Christians

and none of them went around telling all how good of a Christian they were. They lived it without shooting their mouths off. Just as I have met Jews, Muslims and Hindus who lived it without having to tell everyone how good they were. Remember Gandhi's quote. "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians for they are so unlike your Christ."

[seabeyond]

11. that is sad. i meet many.... n/t

[seabeyond]

9. i grew up in az and calif. moved to panhandle of texas at 30. first time

around fundamentalist. i had boys in christian private and all my friends are avid church goers. even the few catholics are fundamentalist. per calif christianity... this has been quite a trip and an eye opener. a real learning experience.

i was telling my youngest the other day that decided he is a non believer because of the christian private school he went to and the hypocrisy and hate and non christian behavior in the name of the lord, that the christian beliefs here is not indicative of all christians. i have spent the last couple years, gently pulling him out of the fog that the christian in this area put on him in the belief of what christianity is.

yesterday he was talking about his problem with the christians not believing this planet is older than 7000 yrs. (the strong majority in this area). i had to explain to him, again, that how they believe here is not what i grew up with. the religions did not work so hard to lie their way into taking the bible literally. they were stories told and science and bible meshed together just fine, without battle of one way or another

religion in this country has gone a place it has never been before. the christians ourselves need to be the ones standing up and challenging each and every time and not leaving it to the non believers to go after our hypocrisy. we need to be strong enough to understand the anger toward the christian today, we created it. it is ours to do. not pointing the finger at all those that continually call the hypocrisy to prove something, but being on their side in calling the hypocrisy. the religion today that is sweeping the nation has earned the anger and wrath of all of us, including us christians.

[Philosoraptor]

13. When Christians find DU?

There are thousands of them here, very few are offended by what they find here, but folks of all stripes get offended sometimes.

If a Christian finds DU uncool, I'm cool with it. I see stuff here all the time that's offensive, but I roll with the punches.

[papau]

21. Interesting - I get a few emaila a week from those on DU offended by this stuff - but

perhaps these folks are few in number -

and/or perhaps most Christians just view these posts with the feeling you have watching a neighbors 2 year old playing in dirt and dog poop - - you feel sorry for the parents - but it is the parents problem and not yours.

[Goblinmonger]

42. That's right papau

you don't think the tone toward your Christianity is right on DU so you go about rectifying that by comparing atheists to a two-year-old playing with shit. How Jesus like of you? Which parable did you get that from again?

I am offended almost daily by something on DU and mostly not about religion (though your attitude toward atheists that is reflected by others does piss me off, too): pedophilia, smoking, gun rights, etc. But I don't go around bitching about it. Fight it when you see it. Present your argument without resorting to fallacies like ad homs (that will be tough for you, I know). And get on with your life.

I hope you (or at least someone) see the irony of your little tantrum of name calling being imbedded in you calling atheists two-year-olds.

[papau]

114. I compare the mocking insulting tone to playing in the dirt - seems a good

wording

and indeed, watching the exercise does make it hard to resist doing the same, as it looks like so much fun.

"don't go around bitching about it" OK - then tell those bitching about it who you agree with or have the same position as yourself to stop the mocking posts - and indeed the posts that attempt to paint the religious as the scum of the earth like the daily preacher caught is sex crime posts.

I'm all for a cease fire as I suspect I agree with you on politics - but I honestly can't recall a political post of yours - which we'll blame on my memory.

Just don't expect whining and claims to victim hood and posts mocking, insulting and putting down another's beliefs to go unanswered. Indeed the reply will be likely in the same tone, as being Christian is hard and folks often do not turn the other cheek.

Indeed ultimately the question is what relevance do these belief/non-belief posts have to job of electing Democrats that believe in separation of Church and State,

[bryant69]

16. They are going to think they should stay away, and they are right

This isn't meant to be a Christian website. Speech that attacks and belittles Christianity is protected, while posts that defend Christianity are shut down as flame bait. That's the way things go, and I think at this point we should all accept it. If Christians are going to participate here, they need to understand and accept that a lot of people here are going to be hostile to their choice.

Bryant

[Philosoraptor]

18. I'll defend Christianity all day, I am for freedom of religious expression.

AND free speech.

[seabeyond]

19. i have never had my posts as a christian shut down. i have seen both

sides of the argument have postws deleted. seems to be more the manner of posts, respectful disagreemnet or flamebait, than the side of argument one choses. and i am christian, i feel no need to stay away. many christians here. they dont feel the need to stay away. just dont want someone to make me sonething i am not, thru statement

[Perky]

20. No one said they were looking for a "Christian" website!!!!

They were looking for discoures on the politics of the day.

[papau]

23. So this means DU should be a haven for promoting atheism? n/t

n/t

[bryant69]

29. DU is a haven for promoting atheism

Bryant

[Goblinmonger]

43. I think you are confusing "atheism" with "secularism"

I can see that DU is a community that is committed to a secular government. That is not the same as an atheistic government. Comparing the two seems kind of like the religious right propoganda.

[bryant69]

48. Well you'd hardly be surprised to find me promoting religious right propoganda

would you? For those who don't know Goblinmonger is one of the many people who knows about my true loyalties.

That said I know the difference between the two, and I will say that DU promotes both Secularism (which I completely support) and Atheism (which, being a Christian, I don't support).

Bryant

[Goblinmonger]

52. I think there are plenty of people on DU

who push the right wing propaganda without even knowing it and not even in the religious arena. The Edwards "big footprint house" line, the "Clinton outed Obama" bit, the "don't talk about that because you will lose us votes" crowd. Plenty of times that people on DU make Rove proud without even knowing it.

I see the secularism = atheism to be another one of those lines. Perhaps you see the difference. Many don't and I felt it was necessary to point out the difference.

Perhaps you can show me how DU "PROMOTES" atheism. I don't see that. And if it does, who cares? It promotes progressive liberalism. Should moderate democrats be able to come on here and tell DU to stop promoting progressive politics? DU is what it is.

[bryant69]

57. I didn't say there was anything wrong with DU promoting Atheism

I don't think there is necessarily, except when it is coupled with anti-religion bigotry, which is not normally the case. And when it is it usually gets slapped down.

As for your first statement, don't be coy. You have an opinion of me that you've made clear in the past, if I'm promoting Right Wing Propoganda I'm certainly not doing it innocently.

Bryant

[Goblinmonger]

62. I agree with you.

I think any problems out of hand statements either way. I think the mods do a good job of keeping things in check.

And, no, I don't like your stance on religion. My record is clear on that. But I don't stalk you or anything. I usually don't even get into a discussion of religion with you because I know you don't want to go into R/T and discuss those things and I try to respect that. But your comment was so close to what I see as being a common misperception that I pointed that out. I, seriously, was not trying to be coy about that.

[spoony]

156. A fine job of contradicting yourself.

In one breath you say that secularism doesn't equal atheism, and in the next you say who cares if DUers promote atheism since, you imply, it is a part of progressive politics. Okay, so which is it?

[Goblinmonger]

181. You are combining

what was essentially two different arguments from me.

Argument 1: Secular does not equal atheistic and DU seems to be in support of a secular government as dictated by the 1st Amendment.

Argument 2: Even IF (and I'm not saying it is true) DU blatantly supports atheism, who gives a rat's ass. It is a private site that does a lot of restrictive things. It doesn't allow conservatives to spout off on here either.

I did not intend for both of those arguments to be taken together.

[papau]

115. Now there is a political post I agree with. :-)

:-)

[RaleighNCDUer]

51. You must be kidding me.

The pro-christian tenor here is only slightly less virulent than in the real world. I went to just a single DU meetup, a few years ago, where I was told to my face that my atheism is my religion. Never tried that again.

Even here, there seems to be a fundamental lack of understanding that a christian majority nation is not necessarily a christian nation, or that a secular government means it is hands off on all sides rather than imposing secularism on its citizens.

As for those headlines, they aren't "Joe Blow robbed a bank branch. He was a Methodist." They only refer to those persons who have some authority in their church heirarchies, making them officers of the church, or politicians who use their religious affiliation to promote themselves - IOW, people who by their positions have some claim to standing in judgement of others. It is equivalent to a ball player throwing a game, a cop selling confiscated dope, or a wall street broker caught insider trading - a violation of their purpose for being there in the first place. THAT is what makes them important.

[bryant69]

55. I'm afraid I'm going to use my experience of participating nearly

daily in this forum for several years over your one time visit to a "single DU meetup."

Bryant

[RaleighNCDUer]

77. OTOH, as a christian you do not read the posts I see with the same

eyes as I do -- to me, the hostility to atheists is palpable, and when an atheist posts against a particular 'christian' bad guy he gets slammed for making anti-christian statements, as if he was accusing ALL pastors of fleeceing their flocks or ALL priests of molesting choir boys.

Even in your own post, you say you believe in secularism but don't believe in atheism - you don't see that as being at all prejudicial, but think about the wording. Rather than leaving it at "I'm a christian who believes in a secular government", which is neutral and undoubtedly true, adding "I don't beleve in atheism" is not only redundant but it loads atheism with the implication of being 'worse' than secularism. Yet, it is so slight a slight that I will undoubtly be called on it, for making up stuff that isn't there. But there it is.

Perhaps you see this site as promoting atheism because, this being a generally progressive site, atheists here feel less constrained in speaking their minds than in the real world. I would wager that you know very few people in the real world who proclaim their atheism (though there are probably more amongst your aquaintences than you know) - as an atheist myself, I only know two others who have 'outed' themselves to me. In the anonymity of the net we can reveal ourselves without fear of being fired on trumped up charges, being sidelined at promotion time, etc. Polls regularly state that about 10% of the population is atheist or agnostic - here, you actually see that 10%.

Please do not read this as coming down on you - there are many here who are overtly hostile to atheists and I don't count you as one of them, but I do think there may be a blind spot or two where you don't see from others' perspectives.

(We need a smiley here which flashes a 'peace' sign.)

[papau]

124. Funny how "cop selling dope" stories never get posted as they have little to with politics n/t

n/t

[SidDithers]

79. .

:nopity:

Sid

[bryant69]

84. Maybe you should read my other posts before putting up your childish smilies?

I'm not sure there's anything wrong with DU having a pro-atheist bias, although I will disagree with them pretty regularly.

[Dorian Gray]

92. That's an unfair assessment

I do think that a number of people here ridicule Christianity, and yes... it does annoy me. But I don't think this site at all is in the business of promoting atheism or demoting Christianity (or any religion!) We're all just a bunch of jerks who like to spout off.

[Goblinmonger]

94. I've made your last sentence

my sig line (with proper citation to you, of course). Best description of DU I've ever heard.

[Dorian Gray]

138. Glad you liked it

It's really true. :)

[SidDithers]

81. Put up or shut up...

Speech that attacks and belittles Christianity is protected, while posts that defend Christianity are shut down as flame bait.

There's no way that you can back up that statement, because it has no basis in truth.

Sid


Edit: fixed spelling

[bryant69]

83. Well if you've already made up your mind it seems like

it's not worth trying to change it.

Bryant

[undeterred]

17. There are lots of Christians at DU

and the religion debate has been going on for years.

Some of us are even former fundies.

Some of us even have family who judge us and no longer speak to us because we are no longer fundies.

There are many interpretations of Chrisitianity and no one at DU is going to be able to establish which ones are "for real".

And there is nothing sillier than thinking that one brand of Christianity is simply going to fix another. Its like expecting the Sunnis to head over in a posse and tell the Shiites to stop causing so much trouble so we can bring our troops home from Iraq tomorrow. (or vice versa) Yeah, that's gonna work.

[gollygee]

22. I agree that there's too much of that here, but I understand why there's some

I hear people say they'll only vote for Christians. Why? Because they think if someone says he/she is a Christian, then he/she must be honorable and trustworthy. That makes those of us who aren't Christian uncomfortable.

But you're right - that point doesn't have to be made over and over and over and over again.

[Toots]

25. Reclaim Christianity

Don't let the GOP get away with co-opting it..They don't even do it well. Do you say the same things at your church? You better...

[GeorgeGist]

30. Christians shouldn't be singled out ...

for pretending that religion defines God.

[seabeyond]

31. btw perky, i looked at whole page and see. it is one poster spamming

on christian misconduct... not seeming like it is thru out du community, but a single poster trying to make a point. generally this kind of spamming isnt allowed on du

[undeterred]

32. All of the Democratic candidates call themselves Christians

I think its fair game to ask them what it means to them.

[William769]

33. It's their inferiority complex

For some strange reason they have to prove they are better (kind of like the penis envy thing) than all Christians. They usually use the excuse it's because it being thrown at them all the time and we all know thats not the case here on DU.

[trotsky]

34. Ooh, let me find some cheese to go with that whine.

Give it up, Perky. DU is what it is. Alert the mods if there's something you don't like. And if you don't like their decisions, maybe DU isn't for you.

Your religion is the majority religion. You get LOTS of benefits from that. But with it comes a lot of criticism. So deal with it.

[Goblinmonger]

44. but, but, but

persecution....bigotry....Jesus.....persecution.

[seabeyond]

46. or purposely try to rile someone, and then when accomplished

denying intent.

this is a funny couple posts, purposely insulting in many ways.... clearly... in ones face and then saying wha!!!

kinda like kids behaviors.

this is a much bigger issue than just any one particular group feeding it. it is all around. these posts are a couple example of exactly how all are particpating in this little battle.

[Goblinmonger]

49. Or it could be

like watching the school bully crying to the teacher because someone pushed them while they were trying to take the lunch money. The on-lookers realize that the person claiming persecution has absolutely no basis and the on-lookers enjoy pointing out the irony and hypocrisy.

Of course, you could just go with an ad hom like you did, but I prefer to not engage in logically fallacies. Your milage may vary.

[seabeyond]

54. the point of the couple posts are exactly responding in the bullying

manner to the perceived bully you suggest. one behavior is not above, justifiable, more valid than the other. both are bullying, name calling, poking a stick at. firstly.

then there is the whole manner of being honest enough to acknowledge only a minority of christians with the loudest of voice are the bully and it is not indicative of the religion as a whole. being dishonest in argument.

[Goblinmonger]

61. So pointing out irony and hypocrisy

is bullying? Really? So those without power in a society can become bullies? How the hell does that happen?

How about the U of Minn study that found that atheists are the least likely group to be voted for in an election and are the most disliked minority group. Do you think that is because of a "small minority of christians"? How about the catholic church? They have a pretty solid following in the US right? What is their stance on gays and women in 2007? Are Catholics leaving in droves because the church has consistantly shit on the rights on gays and women for the past, oh, 17 centuries? No, they still give their money and give their numbers to a church that is regressive and bigoted. How about the christians on DU that tell atheists to shut up about seperation of church and state issues because that is just going to turn off the moderates and cost us the next election? Are they, too, just part of the "minority of christians" that aren't really, really cool people? How about all the glee about the RawStory "atheist whackjob" editorial last year? They, too, are just part of the "minority of christians"? You know, if you add up all those minorities, you might acutally have a pretty good number of people. Wait...that's my point.

[seabeyond]

71. a little whine with the cheese, is not about pointing out hypocrisy.

other than this sub thread, if you read my posts, i am not only opposed to christians being bothered by the anger of non believers, but to understand and support them.

i am not talking about pointing out hypocrisy.

i am talking about the two of you on the sub thread, purposely being insulting and then saying christians have no reason to be insulting. i am saying your post and the other are childish. equally bullying as those you suggest in the Christian community. your very own hypocrisy sittin right in front of your face as you ignore and justify. a wonderful exercise for you to understand those minority christians that are doing exactly the same causing so much trouble for the majority of us, both in christian world and atheist world, muslim, mormon, hindu world and all other that is one, instead of divided and in battle.

[trotsky]

78. Then take it up directly with me, who made that comment.

It was mainly because of the OP's documented history of exactly this kind of "whiny" post complaining about DU and its members. And I'm sorry, but it truly is a whine because it doesn't seek to promote any understanding, just further the bad blood.

I am not insulting Christians in general, just the one in particular whose behavior I find disappointing. Just like I thought we non-Christians were SUPPOSED to do.

[seabeyond]

87. the other poster was equally participating, yet in my posts i did include

both your posts. i simply didnt want to clog the thread responding individually when speaking to both.

i understand what you are saying since you have clarified. as my posts above state i feel i have a greater responsiblity as a christian to speak out about what is going on with our nations religions. i feel a greater responsiblity than what i think a non believer should have, embracing their right to be angry, understanding and supporting

you speak of the op limiting discussion, and that is how i feel your posts denigrate a discussion that will bring a better understanding and a one in battle instead of battling each other when ultimately we are on the same side. making us stronger instead of weaker

i dont support the christian that feels christ cant take critisism or question and needs to be defended. i never felt he was so weak. i dont feel it is my job to defend christianity because someone doesnt believe.

[silverlib]

36. Critical thinking...

Beliefs should always be questioned, especially beliefs that affect politics and others outside of the believer.

IMO, the process of critical thinking is most important in discerning my current beliefs. It's much easier to use critical thinking skills for new ideas and possible beliefs, but the hard part comes in looking critically at the beliefs I have had for years.

My Christianity has actually evolved and grown with the help of DU. I don't feel my Christianity has been threatened any any way on this forum by posts on religion and belief systems that have not been deleted. And I actually don't know if I would have found the deleted ones offensive, as I never saw them. But then, they were deleted.

[zalinda]

37. To be fair, most people on this board

when you say Christian, think RW. Christianity and RW nut cases have gone hand in hand for the last 15 years. And your religion doesn't have the corner on being thought of badly. Tell the truth, you see a woman in a head scarf and think Muslim, and are uncomfortable around them. See "Axis of Evil Comedy Tour". Think Mormon, he's the person that has tons of children, maybe two wives and some how related to the Osmonds, and keeps knocking on your door at 8 in the morning, when you want to sleep in. Baptist, and you're a non-dancing, non-drinking, non-adulterer who may not dance, but drinks (and probably makes moonshine) and is hanging around with the town floozy. Scientologist, well, you are just crazy. Hindu, you let cows walk all over and make a mess in your streets, you won't kill a fly, but you'll burn your women when her husband dies. Buddhist you are a peacenik who meditates all the time and walks around in bed sheets. Hare Krishna, you walk around in bed sheets with funny hair cuts, singing and trying to sell incense in airports. (And the only thing that makes Buddhists and Hare Krishna different is the singing, one chants in temples and the other sings and dances in airports.) Atheist, and you are immoral clods who will never do the right thing because you don't believe in an old guy in the sky.

See, you aren't the only ones who are pigeon holed into a cliche`. You will have friends, neighbors and even relatives who could be one of the above, and you would never know it, because they don't tell you what their religion is, they live it.

And if you think you have it bad, try being a gay man. When RW's think of gays, they think of the Gay Pride Parade people who dress up in really bad drag.

You have only 2 choices, take back your religion publicly, or be quiet about being a Christian. I know that the true Christians are finally speaking up, but it will take quite a while before public perception catches on.

zalinda

[seabeyond]

39. good post.

absolutely agree with all you ae saying. as i posted above, i live in heavily fundamentalist area. around 2004 i had a good ten stickers on car about speaking out against political lies, revolt, (mostly anti repug stickers). i took them off in 2006 after election and now my stickers are going after the rw religion. HATRED is not family values, eye for an eye leaves world blind, ect...

i so believe it is a matter of the majority of christians who live new testament speaking out. where the old testament, fundamentalist, literal christians have the advantage is that it is theirs to judge, ergo speak out. the majority, new testament christian dont judge, pray in closet, ergo allowing the minority to be heard. majority has to start speaking out

[Perky]

69. OK but when we stand up hera and say hey all Christians are not

like those guys....We get slammed as having a persecution process.

Look. Lefty Christians are speaking up more and more. Butthe debate within our community is far differnt than what DUers might typically understand. There is ecclesiatic civiility there are important theological issues, there are very imporatn issues related to how Christians arecalled to treat their brothers. It digust me that some people in my community rail about the world,, but you have to understand that we can not do the same thing in attacking them. There is a different standard at work.


Open warfare with the ranks of Christianity is some thing the media would love to report on, but we are taught to be humble...not haughty....we have to be peaceful and effective not belligerant and ugly. In short we need to act like Christians are suppose to act.

[dmallind]

73. I can't speak for "most"

any more than you can, but I would disagree and be shocked to be wrong.

We are continually told on DU that most Christians are really of the loving liberal kind and tolerant stripe.

It's very possible that many if not most of the Xians ON DU are of this kind. Almost all claim to be, and without proof otherwise, I'll take that as true.

But this is NOT representative of politically active, visible and involved Christians on a national level. If it were, they are frankly doing a horseshit job of getting the word out against a supposed minority of hateful, hypocritical, repressive throwbacks to the Inquisition, because that's what I hear. I don't limit myself to Fox and the 700 club by any means but where is a public voice for this tolerant kind majority of Christians? About all I see is an occasional letter to the editor meekly saying that Pat Robertson may have gone a bit too far. Heck as an atheist trust me I understand how hard it can be to get publicity for a less "sexy" religious opinion, but we're about 7% of the country and even we do a better job of being heard - lousy, but better - than this supposed majority of kinder gentler Christians (who to be a majority of Xians would have to be at least 42% of the population - over six times our size and with much better organization and access).

So it's NOT that "most on DU" think RW nutcases when we see Christianity, at least in a context of the website. It's because the RW nutcases are the ones doing a much better job of promoting their view of Christianity in the nation.

[Ian David]

38. I have an RSS Feed set-up to monitor this. Key words include "Minister" OR "Priest" OR "Rabbi" etc.

[UTUSN]

40. "Agenda"-posting/spamming pops up on different themes.

Opening up DU this A.M., I wondered what was going on with all the LOCAL items about religious misdeeds, having little to no room for "discussion" on a discussion board. Individual "incidents" usually have little discussion leeway.

I still don't know what's going on with this. Like those who post about Hugo/Fidel/AMLO or about the "North American Union," or "border security," these agenda-pushers ought to spell out what their special interest is.

[camero]

47. The only way to get rid of hypocrits is to expose them.

As a Christian, I think these DUers are doing us all a favor.

[papau]

126. Should all hypocrites in the world be exposed on DU - or just the religious ones? n/t

n/t

[camero]

137. All of them..including Dems

and if you read the posts often enough, they are. Christians are not singled out by any stretch of the imagination.

And as a Christian it burns me up looking at these anti-christs as it should all of us.

[papau]

145. OK - I buy the feeling and agree with it - but I suspect the number of posts to GD will jump up a

bit if DUers actually did post ALL -

As it is now, it appears there is a selection going on, and the posts are mainly pointing out religious leaders that are using that position to hurt children, or steal from the congregation. The focus on this group leads to the question why only this group - which is answered by a visit to the various atheist sites on the web where the Dawkins/Harris idea that being religious is a marker for lunatic, sick, evil people is sold on atheist sites that collect these stories as they try to build the self-esteem of their atheist posters.

[RaleighNCDUer]

53. No. You DON'T get it. nt

[Touchdown]

59. If one is comfortable enough in their faith.

...then they inherantly know the difference between pointing out hypocricy and a broad brush against Christianity itself. There are a few thin skinned, well meaning Christians that take offense, especially on DU from time to time, but I think it's more that they bought into the RW meme of "Christian bashing...War against Faith" type of crap, than any real offense made. Christians are 85%+ of the US population. That's a lot people, so a lot of hypocrites are in the group. It goes with the territory.

[papau]

127. Should all hypocrites in the world be exposed on DU - or just the religious ones? n/t

n/t

[spoony]

148. Nonsense

Saying that if people are comfortable being who they are they won't take offense to a constant stream of threads calling them insane, stupid, racist, cruel, etc etc. shouldn't bother them? Really? Do you remember the Snickers commercial volcano effect here?...

[dmallind]

64. Jeez I dunno.

Maybe you'd have a point if 49% of ALL voters (not just right wingers) wouldn't even consider voting for a Christian.

Maybe if even at DU people used "atheist" as a synonym for "a good and moral act/person".

Maybe if we had phrases like "that's the Ingersoll truth"

Maybe if you couldn't put any Christian symbols or stickers on your car without it being keyed.

Maybe if every single broadcast discussion on religion or its influence on politics and scoeity featured several atheists of different stripes, a token Jew and Muslim, but rarely if ever a Christian, even though you massively outnumber the other "minority" viewpoints.

Heck maybe if you WERE a religious minority.

Maybe if only one elected representative at the national level was a Christian, and he had to wait 3 or more decades to be entrenched enough to admit this even in a safe district.

Maybe if advertisers used a Darwin fish to imply their business was more ethical than most - and people actually gave them more business because of this.

Maybe if, despite being massively underrepresented in prison populations, having the lowest divorce rate of any religious view, and being conspicuously absent from sex scandals, people used the term "Christian" as an insult intended to shock, and sadly announced after graves were disturbed that "it must have been Satanists or Christians or something like that"

Maybe if there were dozens of multimillionaire atheists who took fortunes from gullible people so they could operate 24hour atheist TV and radio channels that were non stop hate fests against Christians about how you are less worthy and evil and doomed to eternal torture.

Maybe if the entire doctrine of majority atheism was based on saving the poor misguided Christians from their folly before they die.

Maybe if ALL that happened, then you'd understand why you'd laugh at anyone being a bit put out because somebody was pointing out atheist lapses of morality in one of the few major websites where this would not be instantly removed and the poster banned.

[papau]

128. Do you believe the DU population is as you describe? n/t

n/t

[dmallind]

132. As I describe what?

I described what society is like. Where I mentioned DU it was to express that yes even here some people use "Christian" to mean "good and decent". Less so than at a right wing churhc, but not zero.

It's unrealistic to say that atheists - alone - should not post their complaints about the world at large on DU, but instead only speak to the DU microcosm. When people complain about corporate greed do they have to apologize and say that they know DUers are not like that? Should they not be able to post about these things just because we as a group may be less guilty than most?

I'm sure there are far more oppressive and vicious groups of Xians than the ones here, but that does not mean I cannot come here and complain about the ones who are surely? I mean even the OP got tweaked about threads that were not directed at DU Xians, but specific hypocrites among Christians.

[papau]

149. Almost all threads imply the evil person is evil because they are religious, or that the

religious are enablers of the evil because they are too stupid, as proven by their being religious.

This is not an expose and decry game - it is a blame game - and some feel it has got out hand on DU -
to the point the scorn and mockery and in your face posts of many atheists changes the tone of DU.

Granted that the unwelcome to the religious feeling produced is per the atheists what they experience every day, and granted DU is also about group therapy when a member is hurt, but this is a blame other DUers hobby and not a I am hurting call for support.

[dmallind]

169. Not that I can see

Maybe I miss some religious sensitivity not being religious but the way I read it (and presumably I am at least somewhat closer to the mindset of those who post these threads) it's more that they are evil EVEN THOUGH they are religious.

You cannot deny that one of the most common claims of religious people - yes even on DU - is that religion is an important if not indispensable foundation for morality. Understandably as I hope you'd agree this grates on the nontheistic, who not so much by implication but by explicit exclusion are assumed to have no moral foundation.

Hardly surprising that we are often quick to point out where this claim is proven false.

Frankly I'd be a bit disappointed in anyone claiming to be a rationalist who thinks that religion means you are ANYTHING other than....religious. If religion per se (as opposed to what you do in its name) made you evil, then religion would have to have some power separate from and greater than the human mind to cause that evil - which is a bit of a no-no from an atheist POV.

[spoony]

150. That's another thing

The "darwin fish" and its ilk is an insensitive and intentional mockery of the oldes symbol in Christianity. Before they used the cross, they used the fish, and anyone who uses a bastardized version of it is publicising their disrespect for others' beliefs. It's an asshole move, quite frankly.

[NashVegas]

66. You Really Don't Get It

The Christian religion is being used as a political hammer *against* democrats and democratic principles. No way I'm laying down.

[Malikshah]

67. They're going to fight to reclaim the "leadership" of their faith

If not...tough.

When we bring back the lions...then Christians can cry foul.

[Perky]

70. Fight?

Fight like these Pharisees do?
Fight like Good liberals?
Fight as Christians?

Our tactics can't be hypocritcal when we are fighting the hypocrites.

[WinkyDink]

80. What do you mean, "...what are ...christians [sic] going to think....DU?"

I hope they think: Ah, DEMOCRATS! People who want to SAVE THE CONSTITUTION! People who want to end the ILLEGAL INVASION and OCCUPATION of IRAQ! People who want to HELP the poor, the infirm, the hungry!

Other than that, whatever.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

82. If I had a dollar for every time...

you have posted a variation on this theme over the years, I would be sitting in Hawaii right now on a golden sand beach, sipping a virgin strawberry daquiri. :eyes:

The reason these stories are posted is because Christianity is the dominant religion in our country, and it is used by our country's leaders and politicians as a both a weapon and a shield. A weapon to hurt people such as gays/lesbians/liberals/women, and a shield to deflect criticism and questioning. As someone who was raised Catholic, I have never taken offense that the stories about corrupt or hypocritical "christians" have been posted, nor have I felt picked on by the DU community. I always see these stories as excellent reminders of what Christianity really is, and just how badly it is used by people to justify/hide their own nasty behavior.

The marjority of DUers go out of their way to distinguish their criticism of the faux "christians"/hypocrits from Christians in general. And there are DUers who strongly voice their belief that Christianity -- and all religions -- are crap. And that is their right. And it is your right to be offended by such talk. But it is NOT your right to attempt to soften or shut down the debate.

And if some "well meaning, disenchanted, christians" makes their way to DU and are offended by the vigorous debate, healthy criticism, and wildly different viewpoints, then I suggest their problem isn't with DU, but with the truly secular society created by our Founding Fathers. Welcome to America.

[trotsky]

86. ...

And if some "well meaning, disenchanted, christians" makes their way to DU and are offended by the vigorous debate, healthy criticism, and wildly different viewpoints, then I suggest their problem isn't with DU, but with the truly secular society created by our Founding Fathers. Welcome to America.

:applause: :yourock:

[WhollyHeretic]

125. Very well said

:applause:

[Cobalt Violet]

158. Christ walked on eggshells.

Or was that water?

[earth mom]

88. I want christians to realize that religion has NO place in politics.

Everyone should keep their religion to themselves-because the majority of people don't want to hear any kind of proselytizing. Simple as that.

[Marnieworld]

89. They can think that DU is a place that is no friend to a hypocrite

And I'm sure that if they are smart enough to find DU they can tell the difference between hypocrisy bashing and Christian bashing. Of course we know that all Christians are not Repukes or Dobsonites. We have many of them here that post threads just like this to remind us on a regular basis.

Peace. :hi:

[Spike89]

105. Hypocrites and the act

Hypocrites make me crazy, but it is kinda a secondary event, a bit like perjury. For instance, is the non-christian wife-beater who doesn't say publicly "beating your wife is wrong" better than the christian wife-beater? The crux is that both are wife-beaters. Sure, the hypocrite adds that failure, but then, perhaps, just perhaps his "beating your wife is wrong" sermon stopped 1 or 2 potential wife beaters. Which is worse?
Sure, there is more news hook and moral indignation in pointing out the hypocrites, but in the grand scheme, hypocritical behavior in itself isn't a huge wrong. I'm not an apologist for christian leaders who've failed to follow their own standards--if they've beat their wives (for example) they need to be held to account.

[Marnieworld]

117. I disagree

Hypocrisy is enormous when they campaign based on their morality and discriminate based on it and legislate based on it. When people use religion to hate and oppress when in actuality they are hypocrites it is very valid especially for the ones being hated because of their alleged "immorality". Not insignificant at all.

[Evoman]

93. Christian shit smells as bad as anybody elses.

But thats the point...most people still deny it.

"Oh, those people aren't REAL christians"

"True Christians wouldn't do that"

"Those "christians" aren't ACTING CHRISTIAN"

How many times have you heard this stuff...I see it on DU all the time. People think Christianity has some sort of special claim on morality. They equate Christian with good or moral.

We just choose to disabuse you of that notion. There are as many "true christians" that are assholes, and not all of them reside on the right wing.

[roguevalley]

140. Christianity doesn't have a special claim, it is supposed to be

morality. Just because some don't follow the path set out 2K years ago, doesn't mean nothing is right about it. Christianity is good and moral if you follow it. Every path has assholes, religious or non-religious. If you don't follow the path, then you aren't Christian, etc. It amazes me that bitterness blinds people, Christian and non-Christian, to the goodness that exists out there. No one path has the truth, but a path lived truthfully can change the world.

That said, I don't need anyone to disabuse me of anything.

[mudesi]

98. Why do you take offense?

It is amazing to me the group think that comes with belonging to a religious cult.

Pointing out the hypocrisy of people who happen to claim themselves to be in the same group that you identify yourself with is not a direct attack on you.

[Perky]

99. Did I say I take offense??????????

[Perky]

100. WOULD YOU FOKS KINDLY RE+READ THE OP

I have no problem in the least with Bashing Zealots.

The point was that the five stories highlight havad nothing to do with politics?

[papau]

129. You're breaking up a perfectly good whine that pretends DU religious equal hypocritical Zealots n/

n/t

[donco6]

170. And would you kindly read post 82.

Because that sums up the connection between Christianity and politics and why these articles are important for this community.

[JuniperLea]

101. Speaking as a disenchanted Christian...

Wooo hooo! DU!!! Wooo hoooo! DU!!!



It has nothing to do with faith. It has everything to do with being adult enough and smart enough to see that hypocrisy kills. No one who is a Christian is going to read about hypocrisy and take offense... unless they support the hypocrite...

[papau]

130. Should all hypocrites in the world be exposed on DU - or just the religious ones? n/t

n/t

[Aristus]

131. I'm a Christian myself, and I see no problem with calling out hypocrisy

when it manifests itself.

I think the reason people are so eager to publish reports of hypocrisy in the Christian community is because of the rabid insistence among a minority of right-wing evangelicals that right-wing evangelistic "Christianity" become the official national religion. The right-winger set themselves up as morally superior by opposing abortion and homosexuality. The fact that most of them come out against helping the poor, caring for the environment, and creating a community of loving, compassionate people, sets them up for justified charges of hypocrisy.

For a Christian to paint himself as morally superior to non-Christians is heresy of the worst sort. Christians should be humble, and mindful of our own sinful natures. We need to, in Jesus' words, be concerned about "the beam in our own eye rather than the speck in our neighbor's eye".

If a "Christian", like Ted Haggard rails against the sins of society while carefully concealing his own, deserves everything he gets when the facts are made public.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

136. Exactly what you said, Aristus. Most on DU like me are TIRED of being beaten down with

the formulation that Christianity = righteousness = Republican = better than you = America, which has been particularly virulent and insistent during the Bush years (no accident). So it's understandable that a special and intense venom and schadenfreude is experienced when the hypocrisy of these type of leaders is revealed.

But that doesn't mean that other types of hypocrisy are not reported here. Example: Tobias, the Condi aide who was promoting AIDS prevention primarily via abstinence, while being a customer of the D.C. Madam.

[papau]

151. Condi aide Tobias is political -a rare example in a world full of examples of DU religious bashing

via group blame and folks taking the Dawkins/Harris theme that the religious are lunatics, evil or enablers of evil, and being religious is a marker for at least stupidity and illogical thinking - watch out or you may be banned from the science forum - and in many posts a marker for those one should scorn and mock.

Sort of changes the tone of DU.

[enki23]

134. remember this every time you see a story about some christian doing something nice

as if there's something especially nice about being a christian. these are the consequences of your religious leaders having established themselves as the authorities on, and highest exemplars of morality in our part of the world. it's the (negligible) price you pay for being able to claim your special status in front of parole boards, in job interviews, when running for political office, when testifying in court, when on trial, and in countless other situations.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

135. The headlines you posted are from things people actually did. Are you suggesting that

DUers should NOT post such news if it the deeds were perpetrated by Christians? :shrug:

[papau]

152. Of course not - all are fair game-but there is a selection going on to imply a point-both illogical

and insulting - that the Dawkins/Harris claims that the religious are lunitics and either evil or enablers of evil is correct.

Again - this changes the tone of DU.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

163. You'd have to prove to me that there's such a selection, I won't "take in on faith"

[DarkTirade]

142. That's why I always specify if I'm going to be bashing someone because of psycho-right-wing religion

I specify, with a pre-fix like 'the psycho-right-wing religious christians'. Keeps it simple, neat, and I don't have to worry about backpedaling and saying, "Oh, but I didn't mean this person, or this person..." I've already specified that it's just the psycho-right-wing ones. :)

[papau]

153. That works for me :-)

:-)

[gtar100]

154. Christianity is part of nearly everyone's cultural heritage here

And for that reason it holds a special place in the heart of both Christians and non-Christians. "Crap is king" when it comes to the news and naturally anything with a Christian label on it will especially perk our interests. Some are endeared to the Christian religion, others are revolted by it, very few are indifferent. So news related to it grabs our attention just that much more. I'm just glad to live in a time when it can be openly discussed without fear of being flogged and publicly humiliated if we don't reflect the church's dogma in our public discourses.

I take a different perspective - all those headlines that reflect "Christian" in some form mean that it's vitally important to many people here. If that scares off well-meaning, disenchanted Christians, then there is a safe place I'm sure they know where they could bury their heads. But it won't make the world go away. Good on you for working through it and not hiding yourself away from the bad news. If your beliefs are in line with reality, you'll only be strengthened by the challenges and maybe find that some beliefs are BS and need to be dropped and others can be transformed into understanding. DU is alive with diversity and I think the headlines that percolate to the top genuinely reflect our interests. The kind of sensitivity and restraint you're asking for I think is impossible to achieve here. Thank God for that. Or not.

[spoony]

155. Lol, yeah that's the point of the criticism, to help Christianity

in its search for truth and worthwhile doctrine. It's not at all about delighting in a perceived foe's failings, noooo.

DU is alive with diversity, but that's not what this is about. DU is alive with bigotry. That's what it's about. You essentially admit as much in saying that few who aren't "endeared to it" are "revolted by it." And why would respect for the beliefs of fellow Democrats "impossible to achieve here"? Diversity? No, that doesn't make sense. Bigotry? Yep, bingo.

[Cobalt Violet]

157. Bury the FACTS, here comes the christians.

Sssssssshhhhhhhhh.....


Let's all walk on eggshells.

[Forkboy]

166. Too bad,so sad.

Poor put upon religious folk.Must suck having over 90% of the country on your side.

:nopity:

[Rose Siding]

167. Amen

:thumbsup:

GD goes through phases. This too shall pass.

[donco6]

168. Jesus' harshest words were reserved for hypocrites.

Should we not follow "His" example?

[SoCalDem]

171. The fact that these articles appear in the newspapers, and on the news

points to several issues..(which is why it gets discussed here)

Ever since Jimmy Carter, religion (formal churchy-type religion) has been a BIG DEAL.

Kennedy's Catholicism was a big deal for a while, but after people realized he was not a religious ideologue, it cooled off and drifted away..

Jimmy was the one who "introduced" born-again to the country in a big way. ..and since then formal religion has never left the stage.

The idea of separation of church/state is in a constant state of push-pull.

Churches and "churchy-people" seem to want it both ways, The want the tax exemption for doing the "lord's work", and yet they also want to shape public policy for ALL people (not just their own flock)

Some set themselves up as moral arbiters of all that's decent/wholesome/acceptable, and yet cannot seem to follow those breadcrumbs back to their own lives.

THAT's why it's discussed here.

Personally, I have know people for decades, and still do not know what religion they are or what church the got to..or IF they go. I just don;t care..

religion should be personal/private and NOT part of the general public personna. It should be OUT of the public schools, the workplace and politics.

[Bluebear]

174. Indeed. nt

[knitter4democracy]

172. All of us Christians are hypocrites.

It's part of the faith. We are to become as Christ-like as possible, but He was perfectly divine and perfectly human. We're not perfectly divine in the same way, so we'll always sin, we'll always fall short of the glory of God. It's part of the faith.

I think the real problem is that Christians have hurt so many. In someone's quest to be "perfect," she might have been too judgemental or nasty or said the wrong thing on the wrong day. People have been hurt by too many Christians, and they're going to strike back out of that anger and hurt. Of course they are. It's our job to love them, and it's our job to keep on praying and being as Christ-like as we can.

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlooInBloo]

176. I'll worry about that when I find such a christian.

[Blue-Jay]

177. .

[Forkboy]

178. 'nuff said.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

180. ...

:thumbsup:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

179. if you are a church ministe, its a salient fact about you..and it would be mentioned in a news paper

i am surprised the word christian isnt used more often

"christian bomb iraq" because had any arabic person done it we would have radical islam a thousand times by now

[hyphenate]

184. I don't know about everyone else

but when I discussion my dislike of the religious right, I make sure I use either "religious right" or "christian fundamentalism" as a description of those that I find hypocrites.

Yes, I know that there are many christians who are good, decent people. Many of them are even here on DU. It's those who shout the loudest and who totally contradict the teachings of their god that are the ones who receive my focus. Over a period of time, I lost my best friend to that shit, and last year I ended up terminating our 22 year friendship because of her shit. The shit she spouted was disgusting, and the intolerance she manifested was amazing coming from her. I can't tell you how sad it was to end our friendship after so long, but the crap that I heard from her was beyond belief.

Until this happened with my friend, I had only the madmen at the top of fundamentalism to base the actions of the religious right and one woman on another board who was really immersed in the radical religious right on which to base my opinions. With that the entire viewpoint I had, it was difficult to look at them as anything other than shysters with a gullible audience to bilk. But after my educated friend denounced evolution in favor of Dr. Dino and his bullshit "new earth" creationism, I finally realized that fundamentalism is more than just something that stupid people are drawn in by--that they are actually slowly, but inexorably drawn in to the fold with exactly what they want to hear. It's how they fulfill the agenda of their "fold" and how people who are normally sceptical can go into the fundie cult with their eyes wide open.

So while many of us really hate some branches of the religious right, it's definitely not ALL christians. There are many decent people out there who don't wear their hearts on their sleeve or shout their blasphemy from the highest rooftops, and they're cool. But for many of us, there are reasons why we have something against some christians. The truth is, though, that those who deserve our contempt deserve it.

[Zhade]

185. Of course you do. The OP has a persecution complex.

NT!