The points I make to those that don't oppose the AZ law

[NJmaverick]

as polls have shown the majority of Americans don't appreciate the harm the new AZ law causes. In my mind that means there needs to be an educational campaign. What I do is explain to people why our nation has historically separated law enforcement and immigration. The primary reason was to protect human beings from being victimized. In AZ the illegal immigrants are now fearful of going to the police. This turns them into easy victims of exploitation (even virtual slavery), crime and cruelty. What happens to that illegal house keeper who is raped by her wealthy employer after he had one too many drinks? Does she get justice? No if she goes to the police all she gets is deported for her efforts. What about those employing illegals? Well guess what? Those people can now refuse to pay their workers and threaten to call the police if the workers get upset. Beat your illegal immigrant employee? Not a problem, it's not like the people have any human rights left.
It's not just employers and illegals that are the victims in this area. Criminals will target anyone that looks like a Mexican immigrant (legal or not) because there is a chance they are illegal so the criminal's crimes will never be reported. So I would hate to walk the streets of Phoenix or other AZ city if I looked like I was from Mexico. Every mugger and thief will be waiting to take a shot at me.
To make matters worse the new law gives those that are the real villains (the people exploiting the illegal immigrants) a mere slap on the wrist. To add insult to injury the law even punishes those reporting the exploiters if the state can't make a case against them. That is clearly a measure designed to protect the one hiring the illegal immigrants by making people afraid to report them.

Well that how I address the issue with people. Human nature is such that people are not particularly empathetic. So just telling them the unfair and unconstitutional nature of the law is not enough. I try to put a human face on this racist driven law and try to get them to understand the real human suffering that this law creates.

[ShortnFiery]

1. You hail from New Jersey - you have no idea what it's like to live along a border state.

I've been stopped and asked what country I'm from. I was a little miffed but when considering all the millions of people coming here illegally, I'm NOT against the law in AZ as it stands.

It's their state and I still have family who live there and ALL support the bill. If the people of Arizona don't like the bill, they can vote out all the representatives that supported it. = Isn't that the same damn argument I get from people who don't want to FORCE our representatives to end these two illegal/immoral wars?

If you folks would get half as worked up about these illegal wars, I'd seriously consider supporting your side. Until then, to me, you're being hypocritical and want to have the Federal Government bully the individual States.

[NJmaverick]

5. I am sorry to hear you don't support the liberal side or opposition to the AZ law

[DevonRex]

7. Being FOR the AZ law is just sick. And since you're from Virginia, I suggest you not talk about it.

[ShortnFiery]

15. No it's not: I spent six years of my youth in Arizona and I KNOW what goes on there.

Further, due to my southern German ancestry I have olive toned skin which some people often mistake for an Latina heritage.

The Mexican gangs cross the border and life it HELL in Arizona and Texas in particular.

Therefore, since the Government does not want to take the necessary steps to prevent gangs from entering our Nation, border states have the RIGHT to take such actions.

It's the only viable thing that law enforcement can do.

You want peace? Then secure the border! There's no need to have a Homeland Security Department when suspected *terrorists* can walk right across unguarded borders.

It's the Federal Government who is at fault for NOT securing the border to begin with.

Don't blame Arizona passing legislation to stem the tide.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ShortnFiery]

26. He hasn't said. And if you have read my posts, I'm a Dennis Kucinich liberal NOT a teabagger. eom

[icee]

57. You sound like a name-caller.

[Taverner]

71. I live in a border state and I think you are completely wrong

But hey...first they came for the Mexicans...

[ShortnFiery]

90. No, thanks to the corporate politicians we'll be one big nation of USA & Mexico ...

and you and I will be part of the massive "underclass."

[Taverner]

98. And your solution for this is to harass and lock up Latinos...

[DevonRex]

112. Apparently so. On Democratic Underground, no less.

And apparently there are several who agree with her. Go figure.

[ShortnFiery]

114. Uh, no. Read down thread and realize that I'm a basically compassionate person? eom

[blondeatlast]

136. Except for brown folk who may or may not be walking the streets of Phoenix

legally.

Got it.

[ShortnFiery]

177. You need to sharpen you reading skills. My skin is olive tone and I'm often mistaken

as Latina. What you may find hard to believe is that many LEGAL Latino immigrants support this legislation? :shrug:

[blondeatlast]

181. Yeah? Name one. nt

[Taverner]

203. I'm sure you are - but do you know what the bill really does?

I mean, besides making every law enforcement officer look for papers from any individual it might deal with - if they think there is propable cause that they might be illegal.

It also bans Ethnic Studies programs

It also makes anyone deemed of "having an accent" inadmissible to teach English

Take a look at this bill - its outright Fascist. And I mean to use that word, its not just hyperbole

[blondeatlast]

131. Yeah--interesting how some on DU are so fond of the rhetoric of John McCain and JD Hayworth. nt

[DevonRex]

161. Quite. nt

[Tansy_Gold]

193. Well, this Arizonan is NOT one of 'em. 1070 is unadulterated racism.

I live less than a mile from US 60, which is one of the corridors for the coyotes, and I don't mean the 4-legged ones.

The "drug gangs" are a fear tactic, pure and simple. We have our own home-grown drug gangs, our own home-grown murderers and burglars and garden variety criminals. There's no campaign to round up all the white people who might be embezzlers or welfare cheats or tax evaders -- it's just the brown folks who might be, you know, "illegal."

There's no compassion, IMHO, in a person who advocates rounding up people based on their skin color or accent, sending their paperless children back to a country and culture they've never experienced, and all the other horrible, racist, uncompassionate things that this bill entails.

Is there trash left in the desert? Yeah, there is, and as much of it is by four-wheelers and paint-ballers as by desperate immigrants. Are there murders and drive-by shootings and thefts? Sure, and as much if not more is done by our own "citizens."

1070 is the product of a bunch of people who are desperately afraid that if they had to compete, really compete, with people of color, they couldn't do it. So they want "laws" to protect them from people who really pose no threat. None at all.


Tansy Gold

[Mike K]

207. The Arizona initiative is directed at illegal immigrants,

Not "Latinos" (and "Latinas").

Cubans are "Latinos." The state of Florida is not seeking to purge Cubans.

Puerto Ricans and Dominicans are "Latinos." The state of New York is not seeking to purge Puerto Ricans and Dominicans.

It might help if you understand that Arizona is the border state through which most illegal immigrants from Mexico pass -- and many remain there. Consequently, Arizona is having more than its share of problems with these illegals. Arizona is not taking steps to control the flow of Mexican border jumpers for "racist" reasons but to eliminate the exceptional problems it's having.

Critics of Arizona's anti-immigrant action need to understand that it occurs in response to the federal government's failure to enforce existing immigration laws. If there is an ethnic factor involved it is coincidental.

Incidentally, I'm from New Jersey. But I am an American citizen in solidarity with those American citizens who reside in Arizona -- including those citizens who are ethnic Latino and Latina.

[Taverner]

211. Um - the directive is to look for 'reasonable suspicion'

That includes Cubans, Puerto Ricans, etc... to have their papers

Do you always carry your papers on you?

I don't

-------------------------------------------

And to top it, that is only one part of this wholly unconstitutional law

If you speak with an accent, you cannot teach English

Ethnic Studies classes are now banned

-------------------------------------------

Welcome to Fascism my friend!

[laughingliberal]

110. Don't look now but we're already a massive underclass...

and that's not going to change even if we deport every undocumented indvidual in the country. It seems obvious to me the answer is to make the penalties on companies which hire them hefty enough to provide a disincentive. And then enforce them.

[DevonRex]

113. I agree. nt

[Goblinmonger]

117. Opening the border would get rid of those problems, too.

Terrorists? Got links for that?

[ShortnFiery]

172. Yes, we can liquidate the Homeland Security Department OR send killer drones to monitor the borders?

:crazy:

[blondeatlast]

130. I've spent my whole life here (40+ years) and there's no problem.

I've lived in farmin=ing communities and Phoenix and Tucson. stop being led by the MSM and actually observe. The problem is NOT worse--unless you believe the likes of John Mccain and JD Hayworth. Whom you choose to believe is YOUR call.

[Taverner]

215. There is no threat

Yes, more news reports, because those in the Law Enforcement community would like you to believe there is a threat.

They are out of work - considering private prisons have gone under, and the chief employer has gone down with it.

So they need to find an excuse. Border problems - lets goad the US Govt into hiring more Border patrol....

[ohheckyeah]

134. How do you suggest the Mexico/U.S. border

be secured?

[Taverner]

216. Open it up, legalize all drugs, work on standardizing health care

Bring it up to CANADA'S standards

When I was sold NAFTA, I was sold on it being our answer to the European Union

Now that it obviously isn't, let's make it more like that

[WolverineDG]

146. Tighter border controls are why the gangs are fighting for control now

Homeland Security is doing its job & the border has been tightening up for several years now. Do shipments of drugs & humans still get through? Yes. But not in the numbers they were before, leading the drug gangs to battle over which one has control over which crossing.

but hey, let's just keep harassing anyone we think is a Mexican...they're not really humans anyway.

dg

[ShortnFiery]

175. Then drain the swamp by decriminalizing the drugs? It's all a racket anyway. eom

[Taverner]

217. +1000

[Syntheto]

209. Congratulations....

... for standing up for your beliefs and defending them. This is truly an issue that needs to be decided at the state level. A better way to do it would be to cobble together Regional governmental bodies to work on this kind of stuff.

[KingFlorez]

12. Discriminatory laws are unconstitutional

States can't violate the constitution. It's immoral to support racial profiling as law, how can anyone tell who is an illegal immigrant just by looking at them? It's absolutely insane that anyone could defend a law like this. Don't worry though, the GOP is going to pay dearly in Arizona for passing that law, so I wouldn't celebrate for long.

[ShortnFiery]

18. It's not against the Constitution. Checking someone's license is NOT unconstitutional.

It is ILLEGAL to cross the border without authorization.

[KingFlorez]

35. Stopping someone just based on race isn't legal or sensible

How the heck does this stop anyone from crossing the border? It doesn't. Of course, types like you don't get that, it's all about race, race, race.

[ShortnFiery]

43. That's a lie. People are not being stopped BY LAW based on race. eom

[KingFlorez]

52. Believe whatever you like

[laughingliberal]

120. True. I heard it was on the basis of what kind of shoes they are wearing. nt

[blondeatlast]

140. Do explain why some LEOs are flat out refusing to ask for proof of uimmifgration

status.

[Hepburn]

61. Yes, an illegal crossing, of course, is against the law.

However, racial profiling is unConstitutional.

Your point?

[Juneboarder]

95. Racial Profiling is unconstitutional.

This law allows for the racial profiling that goes along with assuming someone is of a certain descent. I agree with the OP on this matter.

[DatManFromNawlins]

101. That law specifically forbids racial profiling

You know, unlike California's law, which nobody seems to have a problem with.

[Juneboarder]

106. LOL; which law would you be referring to?

CA does not condone racial profiling, unlike Arizona's backwards law that promotes it. If it were to forbid RP, then it would negate itself.

[DatManFromNawlins]

132. It's obvious that you never read the statutes

Because you've got it 100% backwards.

[Juneboarder]

155. Rather than trying to find flaws in me peronsally,

why not try answering my question? I am unaware of the CA law that allows for racial profiling. I am also unaware of how the new AZ law does not allow for racial profiling, as this would negate the whole point of pulling someone over if they look illegal...

You know... they say that those that have dislikes in you more than likely dislike those same things in themselves. Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house.

I'm here to debate ideas and learn, not bash each other.

Thanks :)

[Lance_Boyle]

20. Would you support the AZ law without the single line that says "reason to believe?"

If everyone stopped by the cops was asked to provide proof of legal residence, would that make the law OK to you?

I don't think profiling is the reason people oppose this law. I think most people who oppose it just think illegal entry into the US is fine and dandy and no one should ever be deported for it. I disagree with that view, strongly.

[KingFlorez]

40. Yada, yada, yada

I never said it was okay for anyone to come into this country illegally. I don't support the law, because it allows to much power for the police to stop whoever they want without reasonable doubt. Typical right-wing spin, save for the right-wing talkers.

[Lance_Boyle]

44. AZ has already had a stop and identify statute on the books.

Cops in AZ can stop anyone anytime and ask for their ID. Long before this new law was passed. The new law allows ZERO additional power to AZ police to stop people and demand ID. It merely allows them to detain those who are stopped and ID'd and determined to be in the country illegally. So... ZERO new stop and identify powers. But I don't expect that to sway your opinion much, yada yada yada. Save the misdirection play - you don't oppose new police powers because there ARE NONE. You support illegal immigration.

[KingFlorez]

50. I don't support illegal immigration

So if this law adds zero new powers, what exactly was the point in passing it? All the law says is that police can stop anyone they think is an illegal, even if they have nothing to substantiate that. Stop the lies.

[Lance_Boyle]

56. They could ALREADY stop anyone they thought was illegal.

They just couldn't detain them on that basis alone. The new law lets them detain people found to be here illegally whereas before the new law, they could stop the person, check the ID, determine that the person was here illegally, but then not detain them as they had no state authority to do so (absent some other crime). The new law really should have omitted the "reason to believe" bit in the first place, since it was completely unnecessary given the preexisting stop and identify statute.

[KingFlorez]

64. How does one know who is an illegal immigrant just by looking?

Even the idiot Governor of Arizona couldn't answer that question. I'm actually glad the bill passed, it's going to cause the GOP to lose even more Hispanic votes and that will help turn Arizona blue.

[Lance_Boyle]

75. That's the stupid part of the law - and it was never needed.

No doubt that bit won't stand court scrutiny, but the important part giving state and local police the authority to detain anyone found to be there illegally should. I doubt that the new law will cost any party very many Hispanic votes. Hispanic citizens and legal aliens do not, as a voting bloc, support illegal immigration. Some do, but I doubt they are a plurality much less a majority.

[KingFlorez]

79. Prop. 187 cost the Republicans a lot in California

And it was a law that wasn't unconstitutional, people just disagreed with it. You really think legal Hispanic citizens want to be pulled over and accused of being illegal? That's where the GOP has caused itself trouble, with the profiling, not opposition to illegal immigration.

[Lance_Boyle]

85. Nobody wants to be pulled over, period.

But there should be no accusations of anyone being illegal if they are pulled over and provide ID. Pulled over without a license? Well, you were going to be taking a trip downtown anyway...

[Juneboarder]

97. Pulled over

doesn't necessarily mean you are driving. You could be walking, biking, playing in a park, riding public transportation... none of which require you to carry your ID on you.

[WolverineDG]

149. walking into a battered women's shelter

yes, Border Patrol stakes out the women's shelter. Assholes.

dg

[sailor65]

55. +1 for one of the very few DUers

who can actually read and knew that.

[drmeow]

104. Wrong - they can be detained

if they can't show proof they are in the country legally. They can still be legal and not carry their proof with them - a license is not proof of citizenship.

Also, the law allows people to sue the police if they don't think they are enforcing it sufficiently.

[icee]

49. You may as well stop arguing. Some of these folks will not be

happy until the illegals have taken over the entire State of Arizona and are then looking for new vistas to explore. Actually, there is one thing we can do ourselves. Don't use the Mexican labor that lines up at Home Depots and Lowes, and stores like that. AND, if you see any contractor piling them into his truck, write down the name of the contractor and don't use them. On my street, no one except the one Mexican uses illegal labor for anything. Now, you can't really tell them apart, so this hurts the legal Mexicans, which is one of the main proponents of sending the illegals back to Mexico.

[Jefferson23]

143. So who will not be happy until the illegals have taken over the entire state

of Arizona?? Among the other suggestions you listed, are you fighting for a law to hold employers who hire and exploit them accountable?

Finally, what immigration laws would you like to see replace this one, because it will be found un-Constitutional.

[icee]

218. Yes, I know. I will settle for huge fines against employers who

hire illegals, and a 20-foot fence at the Southern US border from California to Florida. I know what is going to happen if something is not done. Some prefer to look the other way.

[ShortnFiery]

53. +1

I was beginning to feel all alone.

The cops in AZ can NOT legally stop someone because of their skin tone. However, if they are stopped for other LEGAL reasons, they can ask for their driver's license. Everyone who has an AZ driver's license is a US Citizen.

The laws are clear. However, like "driving while black" or myself with dark skin tone, I realize the the cops may bend the rules. No, I agree that it's far from perfect but since the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT will not do their damn job of SECURING THE BORDER, then I don't believe that this is a bad step for Arizona to take. The state is being over run for Heavens sake! :(

[Flaneur]

127. When did DU morph into Free Republic?

I swear I could read some of the same stuff over there.

"The illegals are takin' over!"

"Secure the borders!"

[drmeow]

103. As someone who opposes the law

and someone in AZ who knows lots of other people who oppose the law - I think you are wrong.

I have read the law in its entirety including the added "reasonable cause" part. I still oppose the law. I have always and will always oppose the law because US citizens are not required to carry proof of citizenship with them - do you carry your passport or birth certificate with you everywhere you go? I sure don't (great way to put yourself at risk for identity theft, for one thing).

There are MANY, MANY, MANY Hispanics in this state who have been US citizens from the moment AZ became a state because they were living here when it became a territory. If they are pulled over for a broken tail light and they are not carrying a passport or birth certificate, this law allows the police to detain them. That is unconstitutional. Being my lily-white self, I'm not likely to be asked for my papers if I get pulled over for a broken tail light - but they will. And not having an accent will not protect them because of all the kids who were brought here as infants and learned English as their native language but are still illegal.

I also oppose this law because it is not fiscally responsible and that's what I said to Jan Brewer when I wrote her to ask her to veto the law. I do not want my state taxes being used for a policy which has been shown to be a failure, which police departments do not support, and which should be the responsibility of the federal government (and I don't have a problem with my federal taxes being use for enforcement). I also oppose the law because it opens AZ up to a significant increase in lawsuits (for all those legal citizens they are going to unlawfully detain) and I strongly object to that fiscal irresponsibility as well.

And all of the people I have spoken to who also oppose the law here in AZ oppose it for the same reasons.

[blondeatlast]

144. I've asked people who support the law to define "reason to believe" many times.

I have got some outright racism in response "Mexican, looks Hispanic") or else simply dumbstruck silence.

The truth hurts--but it is still truth.

thanks for the wisdom; it's in short supply lately.

[drmeow]

214. A funny irony

I hear "reason to believe" and think - They say abowt and eh and ya kno, wear tuques, and drink Moosehead - or maybe they speak with a French accent? In other words, Canadian. By defaulting to undocumented immigrants from Mexico, they imply that they do not believe that Canadians would ever come to live in this country illegally. Which, in turn, implies that they think that Canada is as good as, if not better than, the US! :evilgrin:

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[icee]

16. I am not opposed to the Arizona law. As the Federal Government

apparently is doing NOTHING to curb illegal immigration, the States have to take matters into their own hands. I had a house in Flagstaff a few years ago. I sold it. The entire State is being overun with illegals pushing guns, drugs, etc. Let them stay in Mexico. It's gotten way out of hand. The US is no longer in the position to give away anything; we have our own poverty. Let Mexico attempt to make some progress at something other than having children.

[NJmaverick]

19. Illegal immigration is quite easy to stop. Just punish those that exploit the illegals

[Lance_Boyle]

23. and...

deport those who are here illegally. At the expense of those who hired them. Plus additional penalty.

[Flaneur]

128. Do you really want to deport 12 million people?

Do you really want to deport people who came here as children and have never lived in the country you want to send them back to?

Really?

[ShortnFiery]

25. How about punish the EMPLOYERS? But our corporate owned government won't do that. eom

[ohheckyeah]

142. Does that include

punishing the individuals who hire and exploit Mexicans every damn day in AZ?

[icee]

39. Yes, I know. But when will that start? Certainly, it appears, not under

Barack Obama. Something had to be done NOW! Do think that all these Arizonians are just making the problem up? I've seen it myself. You may as well be living in Juarez to live in border cities.

[NJmaverick]

45. Funny thing about AZ, there are few natives. Most people living there were born some where else

[icee]

54. As long as they are legal, it's okay--that is the law. If the are illegal,

get them on a bus back home.

[ohheckyeah]

145. And a couple of days after they get back home, they

turn around and return to the U.S.

[spin]

51. Big Business wants a slave class to exploit ...

Big Business contributes large quantities of money to politicians. Politicians want the money flow to continue.

Don't look for any solution from Congress in the near future, especially in an election year.

Look for a lot of hot air instead. Politicians are good at that.

[icee]

58. Yeah, I know....came down to people power.

[ShortnFiery]

62. And these CORPORATE politicians are getting good hearted people to buy-into their

let everyone from Mexico come hither policy by saying that the Arizona law is unconstitutional. It's not. They are taking advantage of our true bleeding liberal hearts.

At a minimum, secure the borders and provide "papers" to those who are here illegally and send them to the back of the line for citizenship. That would be the most HUMANE way to stem the massive influx of cheap undocumented labor. The foregoing actions, if fully enacted is the only LEAGAL and HUMANE way to deal with this issue.

[CreekDog]

185. It's not humane to make me carry "papers" just to hang out in Phoenix

and it's certainly not American.

i have a driver's license and i never showed a birth certificate or proof of legal residence to get it.

[Hepburn]

65. Makes me wonder why...

...the AZ legislature did not pass laws which target employers of illegals if the legislature really truly had a non-discriminatory intent behind that new law.

Ya know...if is walks like a duck and quacks...

[KingFlorez]

69. They don't want to cut off that cheap labor

It's very likely that more than a few who supported the law have hired illegal labor, just to save money.

[NJmaverick]

81. That, to me, is the heart of the matter

this law helps those exploiting illegals, rather than help solve any sort of problem.

[blondeatlast]

148. this is gonna have an interesting blowback--one of the main industries here that

benefit from immigrant labor is of course our #1 industry, tourism.

Someone (including Brewer) forgot to take tourism into account regarding this law--and it is gonna hurt come time for donations. The boycott IS hitting us already--the real tell will happen in about October.

Not only is the law targeting tourism's cheap labor market, it's hurting their product. Just like with the no MLK Day boycott, this one is gonna be toast as soon as it hurts tourism. And Brewer may well be finished.

[Desertrose]

24. You don't live here.....

.....trust me there are a lot of who live who who HATE this stupid law.

As to voting the reps out...hopefully it will happen...but our present governor was NOT VOTED IN. She filled the vacancy left when Obama picked Napolitano for his cabinet.



What makes you think we aren't worked up about the illegal wars as well??

[blondeatlast]

154. B-b-but, DR, she lived here for SIX years! I've lived here my whole life,

in farming/ranching Pinal County (where I grew up) and both Phoenix and Tucson. I keep wondering where these millions of "illegals" are--if they were that prevalent, I would think I'd see them somewhere. Oh, I actully klived next door to some once--nice lady who made some incredible tamales and always gave me some since I helped her kids with school.

[Desertrose]

189. Heh heh...yeah, what do you know....

You are just a Native Arizonian...hey is that a tan or are you.......??

(I'm kidding here...really. :hug: )

[jtuck004]

32. Why are they afraid of "them"? The immigrants I have known tend

to be hardworking and honest, and I worked and lived around a great number, both legal and undocumented. Many of the problems that a few create seem to come from how they are treated in the society rather than their own character. Not all of them, of course, but the percentage is certainly no higher, likely lower, than among legal folks living in the area, because they don't want to call attention to themselves. Living in Oklahoma I watched the neighborhood change over the years, but unless I wanted a job digging ditches or stocking at the local small grocery, or the really hot and dangerous jobs welding, fence building, etc, they were no threat to my employment in IT. They are simply trying to avoid abject poverty, in a place where they can barely earn $3 an hr, versus the $7 or $8 or $10 they can make here when they are not cheated out of their wages. They live in conditions that many people turn their nose up at so they can save money and send it back to their families so they can eat. They get hurt on the job, they just disappear because the employers will turn them in to INS to avoid the expense. The only time they cost us is when they show up at the hospital ER because we have system that leaves them no other choice.

And just a note - Arizona would not be a state if it weren't for the support of the people around them. They don't live on an island, they are part of a democratic republic, and should act as such. Or refuse the federal money that pays a significant and, with the economic downturn, increasingly important part of your state budget, tear up the interstate where it enters and exits your state, get rid of the airports, and show us how life is as an independent.

And the only time I have ever been through New Jersey is when I was hitchhiking back in the 70's ;)

[Catherina]

34. I never thought I'd see the day where I disagreed with you

so strongly on something.

I lived half my life in Arizona by the way and go back there all the time. I'm 100% against that law but agree with your final point.

[Jefferson23]

46. It is irrelevant whether you and or the majority of Americans support

the immigration law. If found to be un-Constitutional, it will be null and void.

[NJmaverick]

63. Do you realize just how many immigrants NJ has? Quite a few

but the difference is I don't blame them for the problems the state has.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. I bet most of the authentic Arizonans oppose the law.

The ones who actually live on the border. The ones with latino family and/or friends.

As opposed to the relatively recently white migrants who just flocked to the suburbs.

[blondeatlast]

157. Anglo, lived here 40 years, attended school with the children of border crossers--and

am 100% opposed to this law.

But it's just because my nice, I-knew-the-family-was-illegal, next door neighbors made us tamales a lot. Oh, and the fact that I've known native Arizonans who've been suspected of being illegal by the incredibly damned ignorant.

[joeybee12]

83. And yet Texas and New Mexico, also border states, don't have your "problems"

:eyes:

[blondeatlast]

159. Odd, isn't it? And why does this lifelong Arizonan not see these problems?

My guess is it is because I reject the rhetoric on the Right.

[Beetwasher]

118. Oh! YOU Support This Horrible Law??? ROFL!! Well, That Says It All, And Is Frankly Unsurprising

You arbiter of libaralness, you. :rofl:

[blondeatlast]

160. LOLing--something I didn't think I could manage in this thread.

Kudos to you. :thumbsup:

[WolverineDG]

135. I live in a border state, am frequently asked to declare my citizenship

and I and everyone I know is AGAINST this law. It is racial profiling, pure & simple. If you have blond hair & blue eyes, you aren't going to be harassed.

When I'm with my brother, who definitely looks white, I'm treated as white. When I'm with friends who don't look or aren't white, I'm treated like I'm Mexican. If I'm by myself, I've been treated both ways, including being treated like a Mexican only to see the blood drain from an agent's face when he realizes I'm white. AND I've seen them almost piss their pants when they realize that I'm not only white, I'm a lawyer. And *THAT* *REALLY* *PISSES* *ME* *OFF*

Should you think that agents don't treat whites & Mexicans differently, let me assure you, they most certainly do. And they *KNOW* what they are doing when they are doing it.

If you support this law, you support racial profiling. Own it.

dg

[tranche]

162. Methinks you hate the color brown.

Considering you once didn't think much of the Japanese internment, I'm starting to get a pretty good idea of what you're all about.

[CreekDog]

184. Thanks Rand Paul

that's his argument about the Civil Rights Act and you agree with him when it comes to telling states what to do.

don't even think of calling yourself a liberal.

[KonaKane]

I used to live in Las Cruces, NM and I think you're full of crap.

The so called border between El Paso and Ciudad Juarez is a sea of humanity flowing either direction on any given day. People actually pass it to go to and from work! Family ties there, business ties, it makes the fact that there is a border station there quite stupid. In a larger sense it makes a case for the stupidity of artificial borders in general.

Additionally, your "states rights" argument doesn't hold water because AZ shares one NATIONAL border.

[Hippo_Tron]

210. .

http://yorick.infinitejest.org:81/1/img/card-human_rights_american.jpg

http://yorick.infinitejest.org:81/1/img/card-homeland_security_act.jpg

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. It's the same trap we fell into with health care.

The people that are inclined to care about the constitutionality or fairness of the law are probably already on our team. If we're going to fight this, we have to talk about it in terms that they care about. Such as, do you really want MORE gangs and immigrant smugglers living next door to you? Because if you push these people further underground, that's exactly what's going to happen. We've already seen this with the laws that we have, and this only makes it worse. THAT is an argument they can care about.

[ShortnFiery]

8. The gangs from Mexico come across the border and set up camp.

It's no coincidence that Phoenix, Arizona is the kidnapping capital of the world.

It's an entirely different environment the closer you edge to the Mexican border. It's a semi-war zone. :scared:

[DevonRex]

10. How do you know? You're from Virginia, and as you said above

people who don't live in border states aren't qualified to comment.

[ShortnFiery]

17. I lived in Arizona for six years and I go back to visit family twice a year. eom

[blondeatlast]

163. I guess I, a lifelong Arizonan, who still resides here and sees none of the problems you speak of

(and I've lived in Tucson, Phoenix, and grew up in Pinal and Pima County) must bow to your sacred expertise.

[NJmaverick]

14. I just checked the crime rates of Detroit (far from the border) and Phoenix

turns out Detroit's violent crime rate is much higher. So I guess your blaming all the crime on the Mexicans meme has a few flaws.

[ShortnFiery]

36. Human smuggling makes Phoenix kidnapping capital of U.S.

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=877515

Phoenix has become the kidnapping capital of the United States, because of illegal immigration and human smuggling, according to the head of the Phoenix Law Enforcement Association.

In the past year, there were 359 kidnappings in Phoenix, and not one was legitimate involving a truly innocent victim, said Mark Spencer, head of the union which represents more than 2,500 Phoenix police officers. He said all the kidnappings were connected to illegal immigration and the numbers may represent just the tip of the iceberg.

``The investigators up at the violent crimes bureau are estimating that this 359 represents just one-third of the reported kidnappings that take place in Phoenix," Spencer said.

The resources needed to handle such cases are immense, Spencer said. He said the violent crimes bureau has exceeded its overtime budget by as much as 300 percent in the past year dealing with illegal immigration.

[Scout]

158. must be those Canadians sneaking across into Detroit ;-) n/t

[Hepburn]

70. I live in SoCal and I call bullshit on your statement.

Come on...you sound like a commercial for a Teaparty Meeting.

[ShortnFiery]

86. No, you're siding with the corporate politicians. We are being over-run and will

experience abject poverty if we don't secure our borders.

I don't appreciate the name calling.

[blondeatlast]

165. While you side with John McCain and JD Hayworth and Jan Brewer.

If it talks like a duck and listens to the rhetoric of ducks, it ain't a platypus.

Oh, I forget you support Dennis Kucinich. :rofl:

[Hepburn]

213. ...

...:rofl:

[Flaneur]

133. Utter horseshit. Crime is low on the US side of the border.

El Paso is one of the safest cities in America.

Check this out:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/illegal-immigration-fact-check-mayhem-us-mexico-border/story?id=10690707

<snip>

But while several violent high-profile incidents in the Tucson, Arizona, sector have gained national attention and colored political rhetoric, an ABC News analysis of immigration and crime data, combined with interviews with law enforcement officials, shows something very different -- that violence and crime on the U.S. side of the 2,000-mile border with Mexico are generally on the decline.

<snip>

[WolverineDG]

152. Actually, it's Mexico City

The only links that say Phoenix is the kidnapping capital are right-wing sites.

dg

[DevonRex]

3. Excellent OP, NJM. It's much harder to be for the AZ law if a human face is

put on it. K&R nt

[ShortnFiery]

21. Then force our Government to do their damn jobs and secure the southern border ...

There's no need for Homeland Security Department when this border is so porous. There's gang activity all along it.

[pampango]

41. Border 'Mayhem'? An Illegal Immigration Fact Check Shows Violence Declining

...while several violent high-profile incidents in the Tucson, Arizona, sector have gained national attention and colored political rhetoric, an ABC News analysis of immigration and crime data, combined with interviews with law enforcement officials, shows something very different -- that violence and crime on the U.S. side of the 2,000-mile border with Mexico are generally on the decline.

By numbers alone, the border region appears, as Department of Homeland Security Secretary and former Arizona Gov. Janet Napolitano put it, is as "secure now as it has ever been."

More than 646 miles of the border are protected by fence, according to Customs and Border Protection. More than 20,000 border patrol agents serve on the front lines -- an 80 percent increase over 2004 and the largest number in history.

The number of illegal immigrants apprehended along the border, which CBP uses to gauge the flow of migrants, is down nearly 55 percent from 2005. The agency captured 540,865 last year.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/illegal-immigration-fact...

[Caliman73]

119. Don't go getting all facty figury on us

We like us some good old fashioned fear and hyperbole in our debates about complex social and economic issues that have a major human impact. We are being "invaded", "overrun" and "murdered" by the thousands and millions after all. :sarcasm:

[Jefferson23]

59. To suggest that this law is an answer to what you believe is incompetence

from the Feds is not going to keep this law from being deemed un-Constitutional.

Obama's administration is looking at it, as well as the ACLU, and they are not alone.


April 23, 2010, 6:34 PM ET.Law Profs On Arizona Immigration Bill: It’s Unconstitutional

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2010/04/23/law-profs-on-arizona-immigration-bill-its-unconstitutional/

[ShortnFiery]

77. It is Constitutional and I don't believe the M$M. The borders are still OPEN. eom

[Jefferson23]

80. Please state your source for why this is Constitutional and what

do you mean you don't believe the MSM? What does that have to do with the groups who are challenging this law that I listed
for you?

[pampango]

109. Forget the M$M, is there ANY media (left wing, right wing, independent, etc) that contends

the borders are still OPEN?

Forget I mentioned the RW media. I know that FOX thinks the borders are still OPEN. (It's part of the whole rw "secure the borders before you do anything else" - and we'll never really get to the "anything else" mantra.) But anyone else besides FOX and the boys?

Or is the belief that the borders are still OPEN (like the belief in GOD) just something that ones KNOWS without proof? If that's the case, you are more than entitled to your beliefs.

[blondeatlast]

166. No, you believe John McCain, JD Hayworth, and Jan Brewer. nt

[dkf]

4. Separating the two isn't working.

Apparently the criminal element is capturing and holding for ransom those crossing the border. They are also exploited by coyotes. Encouraging them to cross illegally by promising a wonderful life once they cross the border puts them in harms way and encourages the disrespect of American law amongst our own people.

I've never seen so much advocacy for breaking the law before this debate. It used to be just the druggies that were pro law breaking but in this debate people here were trying to say we all pick and choose what laws we should follow. Those aren't attitudes we should be advocating much less teaching our kids.

[mimitabby]

6. you're probably not going to get very far, the unrec's are coming

I just posted about Arizona and Immigrants too, and my post was unrec'ed several times.

I agree with you. The law is not a good law.

[NJmaverick]

9. Which is truly sad as this is supposed to be a liberal website and compassion one of the bedrocks

of liberal ideology.

[DJ13]

27. Compassion ends when our nation is overrun

We cant take everyone in who just want to come here without regard to our immigration laws, we just cant.

There comes a time when you have to begin being compassionate for Americans first.

[ShortnFiery]

28. And the MOST humane way to do that is to SECURE THE BORDER. eom

[Caliman73]

115. Actually

The most HUMANE way is for the United States to stop interfering with the economic and social development of the nations that send us the poor and desperate immigrants and to truly help to correct that damage that our interventionist policies have created. Unlike European immigration which was a result of changes within European government and people's desire for new opportunities, Latin American immigration is pretty much a direct result of the exploitation of natural resources by the United States and its support for repressive governments that have put financial gain above the needs of its citizens.

If your strategy is SECURING THE BORDER, nothing short of brutal repression that will convince people to stay away. They already risk dangers and degradation that we cannot imagine just for the opportunity to work and send money home or get away from the problems in their countries, which our government and corporations have had a major part in causing. Your thinking is on the same line as those who thought that making alcohol and other drugs illegal would stop their consumption.

Rather than going to the root of the problem you think that drumming up fear and hatred of other as well as bandaid fixes are going to stop the problem.

[ShortnFiery]

121. Since the Mexican Government is going to remain a coven of rich thugs, what do you suggest?

There's two classes in Mexico: The haves and the have nots.

If you want to have a government like that TOLERATED in Mexico, then by all means, dissolve the border?

[Caliman73]

139. You're right..

I would rather seal our border and let all the shit we helped to create in Latin America, blow up in face of everyone else. Then we can just look on as all those stupid brown people kill each other off.

:sarcasm:

[ShortnFiery]

156. Oh come on? We didn't do this, our government did and it's still corrupt that way.

NAFTA is still in effect.

We have to correct our OWN GOVERNMENT, then we can treat peoples of other nations with the respect that they genuinely deserve.

Now we have no power. If we allow the corrupt corporate politicians to turn the USA into a third world nation we too will only have two classes: The haves and the have nots.

If we allow a massive influx of cheap labor, there won't be an educated middle class left to CHANGE THE SYSTEM.

That's what our owners want: Uneducated workers fighting tooth and nail for "a few treasured jobs."

We must secure our borders FIRST. Then we can work to change our government which will take at least a generation.

[Caliman73]

182. So since WE have no power to correct OUR government

We should just pick on people who have even less power and less hope than we have. Gotcha!!:thumbsup:



:sarcasm: in case you didn't pick up on it.

Targeting the people who come here for a better life is stupid. Target businesses who exploit them in their countries and who hire them here only. That will have more of an impact than creating a racially driven police state.

[ShortnFiery]

188. If the massive influx of undocumented workers wash out our middle class, we will have NO POWER.

Right now we still have our vote but the game is rigged.

Our only chance other than securing our borders is voting in some true progressives who are not beholden to large corporations.

Sadly, you won't open your mind to realize that if we let in ALL these immigrants, we will be fighting each other for "the scraps."

p.s. Do you see our CORRUPT politicians showing any signs of punishing their MASTERS in these corporations? Punishing the employers is not going to happen in the immediate future. That's a non-starter.

But we might be able to secure our borders. If we demand it and ONLY BECAUSE we can use the "terrorist angle" to our advantage. Why bother FUNDING a Homeland Security Department if *terrorists* can cross our open borders? That foregoing argument could work?

[Obamanaut]

202. And how is different from our own group in D.C. ?

[ohheckyeah]

153. Please tell us how we are going to secure the border?

I lived on the damn border and it isn't going to happen.

[ShortnFiery]

169. Those fences that Israel has constructed are quite impassable. eom

[ohheckyeah]

176. LOL

And just how long do you think that will last in the AZ, TX, NM or California sun? How do you put one of those across a wash that prevents flooding? One good cloud burst and it would be washed out.

Have you ever really been out hiking in the desert?

[ShortnFiery]

178. Yes, cement walls will last and can be easily repaired. If there's a will, there's a way. eom

[ohheckyeah]

180. Wrong.

You have large areas on the border that can't be walled in because they are washes. The washes carry away flood waters from storms and to block them off would either cause flooding in other areas or they would just be washed away.

Not to mention it's almost 2000 miles of border and Mexicans tunnel under and climb over fences. There are some fences in place and they are virtually worthless.

Easily repaired? Easy for whom? We're talking about some desolate areas with extremely harsh climates.

[ShortnFiery]

183. Hey, combine it with different materials for the washes. Use a multi-pronged approach

with monitoring by patrols.

It can be accomplished if we had the WILL to succeed in this endeavor.

We could meet this challenge. :thumbsup:

[ohheckyeah]

186. If the fences in the washes

allowed the water and debris to flow through then it would allow people to get through. The washes carry a lot of debris out of the mountains.

We already have patrols for all the good it does.

No, we aren't going to stop Mexicans from entering the U.S. with fences and patrols.

I think you have an unrealistic idea about the whole issue. You may visit AZ but I don't think you've lived down on the border and traveled the deserts and mountains.

[ShortnFiery]

192. We have to make a REAL effort - otherwise, WTH disband the Homeland Security Department

and have the World function as one big free for all "playground."

Yes, we have to make a concerted effort to fully secure our borders lest these "terrorist scares" are total bullshit.

[ohheckyeah]

196. Now you are changing your argument.

HOW do you secure the border? More Border Patrol? Doesn't work. A Fence? Clearly won't work. What? What do you suggest? Armed military standing shoulder to shoulder for 2000 miles in scorching heat and rough terrain? Ask Americans who live on the border how they feel about that.

[ShortnFiery]

199. No solution to this problem is THAT simplistic.

If some of you folks would have shown half the righteous indignation against the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, you could have helped me and others convince the powers that be not to ATTACK.

Use the billions upon billions we spend on the MIC to secure and patrol the borders. That would be money better spent.

[ohheckyeah]

205. No, the only thing that is simplistic

is your thinking when it comes to a complex problem. There are many areas to the immigration problem that have to be addressed but you are so busy spouting nonsense you don't see that.

You proved you have no idea what you are talking about with the fence business and when you got called on it you have no suggestions except to say I'm being used by powerful corporate interests. :eyes:

[ohheckyeah]

191. Here you go:

That's the kind of stuff that get carried along the washes. You can't build a fence that will work in the washes.

[ShortnFiery]

195. IF we can strive to go to MARS or have STAR WARS we can also secure our southern border. eom

[ohheckyeah]

197. You really don't have an argument

and have no idea what you are talking about. When your fence argument gets blown to hell you just keep saying I think we can, I think we can. This isn't a situation for The Little Train That Could.

[ShortnFiery]

198. No, you merely don't have the will. You're being used by powerful corporate interests

who are playing off of your sense of humanity. What's sad is that once you realize that you've been duped, it may be too late for our nation.

Yes, I believe that we could secure the borders but our corporate owners will not permit it.

[ohheckyeah]

204. Powerful corporate interests huh?

LOL. Seriously, that's just silly.

Immigration from Mexico is a complex issue and will take complex solutions, not the silly "secure the borders, build a fence" claptrap you keep spouting.

You've yet to suggest any rational solutions other than "I think we can".

You are being duped by a bunch of stupid people who have no idea what they are talking about other than they don't want illegals in their state. Most just don't want Mexicans period.

[ShortnFiery]

206. No, there's more going on in both sides of our argument. eom

[Jefferson23]

212. And you're still peddling this disgusting idea, and with pictures now. n/t

[NJmaverick]

29. If you talk to a republican/conservative they will give you a long list of areas

where compassion ends.

[DJ13]

31. Im sure they would

But their concerns dont matter to me.

[ShortnFiery]

87. Wow - every time you use the world *liberal* it troubles me. There's only corporate interests

in your goals as you support everything the corporate establishment democrats with power ask for. :shrug:

[NJmaverick]

88. Well considering your contempt for Mexicans, it's not surprising that the

word liberal troubles you

[ShortnFiery]

91. That's low, even for you. My contempt is for corporate politicians who do not wish to

have our borders secured, NOT with the Mexican people. I want the documented workers here to become documented. That's respect, not contempt.

[NJmaverick]

99. Just hating corporations hardly makes one a liberal

[ShortnFiery]

107. It's more than "just" but a pattern of beliefs and perspectives that cumulate

into an perspective of who one truly favors: the working classes or the super rich. ;)

[blondeatlast]

168. This from someone who continually has cited John McCain's stupid rhetoric all through this thread. n

[Peacetrain]

11. Fear is the greatest enemy of the freedoms we cherish... K&R

[BootinUp]

13. K&R

you are upsetting folks with your excellent logic and they are unreccing your post btw.

[benld74]

30. The Law is Unconstitutional - AND will be found so by the courts

[Lance_Boyle]

47. the "reason to believe" part will be found to be unconstituional profiling.

The bit that allows the police to detain those found to be in the country illegally will not have that problem. So AZ will get to keep its law, but the police will not have to have "reason to believe" someone is in the country illegally to check their ID. Which was never needed in the first place since AZ already has a stop and identify statute.

[Desertrose]

33. I live in AZ...you make excellent points.

Knowing people who will suffer because of this law makes a HUGE difference.

[DevonRex]

37. Thank you so much for saying that.

:hug:

[ShortnFiery]

42. What do you say to the border areas where ranchers are getting murdered and the population

is being over-run? If you will do NOTHING, I don't fault Arizona for passing this law.

Someway or somehow this mass influx of undocumented workers is going to set-off some really bad violence. We need to stem the tide.

Why can't we secure the borders and punish employers? WE WON'T.

Given the neglect to accomplish the above, how can you blame those in Arizona who wish to do SOMETHING?

You can't lay ALL THE BLAME on Arizona when the federal government is so inept at securing the border.

[Forkboy]

48. "the population is being over-run"

Almost like a disease, aren't they? :crazy:

[DevonRex]

74. Apparently they're all murderers, too, according to Short.

:freak:

[ShortnFiery]

78. You know that I didn't imply that. How does it feel being used?

Because that's EXACTLY what the corporate politicians are doing with you: Using your compassion to accomplish the opposite of your good intentions: Morphing most of the USA into a third world nation.

You're being used and you don't even realize it. That's what's tragic. :(

[DevonRex]

84. "border areas where ranchers are getting murdered "

[blondeatlast]

173. And according to John McCain. Interesting, yes? nt

[DevonRex]

187. Yes, very, very interesting. The shark has been jumped for the final time.

:crazy:

[Beetwasher]

190. Quite Ironic Isn't It? This Spew Coming From The Self-Proclaimed Arbiter Of Who Is A True Liberal...

Things that make you go hmmmmm.

[DevonRex]

194. Yes. The irony is quite thick in here. Now I'm LMAO.

It's the gift that keeps on giving. :rofl:

And, by the way, thanks for noting what was said to me. Hilarious, wasn't it?

[Beetwasher]

200. I Almost Friggin' Died Laughing When I Read That Coming From That Particular Poster

One of the funniest damned things I've ever seen on this site.

[DevonRex]

201. LOL. So did I.

I abruptly toned it down and laughed in a "tasteful" manner. Then I :rofl: again.

[DevonRex]

72. As a Democrat I'll call bullshit on racists no matter what state they live in.

And I call bullshit on you for not standing for human rights of ALL people.

[ShortnFiery]

82. You're feigned self-righteousness is distasteful. You trust corporate politicians who wish for

nothing less than a huge underclass in this nation. You are allowing them to pit ourselves against each other. The undocumented workers would earn more pay ... DOCUMENTED. The American Citizens would glean better salaries if the borders were SECURE.

Since the federal government will not act, the over-run border states are going to pick up the ball and fend off nothing short of an impending INVASION of third world peoples.

We all will live from hand to mouth if we don't defend our borders. Think about that?

[ismnotwasm]

100. Secure how?

Fences? Soldiers? Prisons? Letting them drown as they cross? I'd like to see an open border policy myself, perhaps a type of guest worker policy along the lines of a modernized Bracero program only this time with Mexico and US oversight and Union support. (I know the Bracero program exploited workers, what I wonder is, could the IDEA be improved to help prevent this?)

I'd like to see cooperation between the two governments on the gang and drug problem. Mexico now exports most of the raw ingredients for meth since states now over-regulate things like psuedoepinepherine. We don't want meth manufacture in OUR neighborhood so we passed short-sighted laws that helped precipitate this problem.

That can certainly be looked at, as can the whole way we look at drug laws.

Then we can take a look at NAFTA as well as CAFTA. (AND the WTO-- why do you think we protested it? Mexico did made a temporary gain in jobs from what I understand until China became a member of WTO and paid even lower wages) All other personal objections aside, at least if we're going to have trading 'partners' can we at least use our influence to promote decent wages? Start with already impoverished Mexico and the further south you go wages decrease and poverty increases along with the lower national GDP's. Impoverished Mexico has competition with it's even more impoverished neighbors.

This is a human being problem that transcends nationality. You want to 'get' the corporation's? Empower these people crossing our borders. Make them our partners. You worried about American jobs? Take a look at the trade agreements and tariffs that are the real culprits. In the meantime, lets not shoot brown people because we don't know what side of the fence they belong on OK?


There are specific, productive ways to do deal with this issue. All I see from those who support this travesty of a law are broad generalizations, then they deny immediately, racism. On of the key component of racism *is* these types of generalizations. I rarely talk to someone who support this law who doesn't make some racist crack that would get them banned from DU, often involving women and children.

[ShortnFiery]

108. Hey, those big-ass walls that work for Israel would do the trick? No joke. eom

[ismnotwasm]

137. You're NOT kidding?

Jesus that is one fucked up statement.

[Flaneur]

138. You have gone over the edge. God, just listen to yourself.

Go take a walk and smell the flowers or something.

[Jefferson23]

147. I feel sorry for you, honestly. Very sad to hear such a thing on DU.

[DevonRex]

151. Yes it is.

:wow:

[ohheckyeah]

150. Seriously?

How the hell are you going to build a wall across the desert, mountains, and washes? For God's sake, it is 1954 miles long. Plus, we all know walls don't work because the Mexicans tunnel under them and climb over top of them.

[blondeatlast]

179. Yeah, that didn't exaggerate what was once a minor problem at all, now, did it?

Geeeeezzzzzzzzzz...

Do you actually ever READ what you write? :wow:

[Beetwasher]

122. Wow, Who Knew, The Self-Proclaimed Arbiter Of Liberalness Is Really A Xenophobic Racist

Whoda thunk it?

"We all will live from hand to mouth if we don't defend our borders. "

This is such a fear drenched, insanely paranoid comment that I find it hard to categorize. I may actually have a shred of pity for you if you honestly believe this.

"You're feigned self-righteousness is distasteful."

That may be the single funniest thing ever posted on DU, coming from you.

[ShortnFiery]

125. You have outdone yourself in rude behavior.

Why am I not surprised? :eyes:

[Beetwasher]

126. Yes, Feigned Self Righteousness, Indeed

:rofl:

[blondeatlast]

174. And you trust (and liberally make use of) the rhe rhetoric of John McCain and JD

Hayworth, you cute little liberal, you.

[ShortnFiery]

38. Then let's pass a law Nationally that PUNISHES the employers of undocumented workers? eom

[pampango]

60. Hundreds of Union Janitors Fired Under Pressure From Feds (ICE audits of employers)

http://www.truthout.org/hundreds-union-janitors-fired-under-pressure-from-feds59210

Nevertheless, the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) division of the Department of Homeland Security has told ABM that they have flagged the personnel records of those workers. Weeks ago, ICE agents sifted through Social Security records and the I-9 immigration forms all workers have to fill out when they apply for jobs. They then told ABM that the company had to fire 475 workers who were accused of lacking legal immigration status.

President Obama said sanctions enforcement targets employers "who are using illegal workers in order to drive down wages - and oftentimes mistreat those workers." An ICE Worksite Enforcement Advisory claimed, "unscrupulous employers are likely to pay illegal workers substandard wages or force them to endure intolerable working conditions." []ICE Director John Morton said the agency is auditing the records of 1,654 companies nationwide. "What kind of economic recovery goes with firing thousands of workers?" Miranda asked. "Why don't they target employers who are not paying taxes, who are not obeying safety or labor laws?"

Ironically the Bush administration proposed a regulation that would have required employers to fire any worker who provided an employer with a Social Security number that didn't match the SSA database. That regulation was then stopped in court by unions, the ACLU and the National Immigration Law Center. The Obama administration, however, is implementing what amounts to the same requirement, with the same consequence of thousands of fired workers.

[ShortnFiery]

67. Too many Politicians use the guise of "human rights" to encourage large influxes of undocumented

workers to the USA and thus ensure a large underclass for their CORPORATE OWNERS to exploit.

We need to get rid of these dishonest and corrupt political leaders.

[blondeatlast]

171. This lifelong Arizonan agreew wholeheartedly. nt

[jillan]

68. Please help Arizona elect NORMAL politicians - see my link for one.

(Okay - no wisecracks about normal politicians being an oxymoron)

If we don't get these idiots out of power their disease will spread.

[DevonRex]

73. Great post, Jillan. Thank you for standing up for human rights

in a constructive way.

[kctim]

76. Very logical and valid points Mav

But if we are going to have an educational campaign, should we not educated everybody about ALL of the problems?

What happens to that US citizen who is raped by an illegal immigrant after he was allowed to flee justice in his country by simply walking into ours? Does she ever get justice from knowing she would not have been raped by that man if her country did not ignore the probability that criminals are also entering our country? Afraid to be outside on your own property? Get over it, those strangers trampling all over it are all innocent angels who have the right to trespass because their country once controlled your land. Family killed in car wreck? Who cares. Its not their fault they are not familiar or can not understand our driving laws. Willing to work and can't get a job? Tough. The elite have said you won't do that job even though you say you will.

There are "what ifs" and "what happens" on both sides of the equation and controlling entry into our country is the ONLY way to address them all.

Law abiding people are not particularly empathetic to non-law abiding people. Just ask the guy who got caught robbing a bank in order to feed his family.

[Crystal Clarity]

89. Why are so many people un-recommending this?

:shrug: I think the OP made some very valid points.

[DevonRex]

92. ...

There are a few reasons, which can't be discussed.

Edited my subject line.

[Crystal Clarity]

94. Yes

Thanks for pointing that out to me while I still had time to edit!... Big oops!

Can't be discussed?... Hmmm, the whole thing is very odd to me. I guess I just haven't been here long enough to know the backstory... whatever that may be...

[ShortnFiery]

93. Read the comments within this entire thread and you may find ...

the road to Hell is paved by sweet talking Corporate Politicians who get the unwashed masses to act against their own best interests.

We should all be angry with our Federal Government for not securing the borders and finding a quick and feasible way to get DOCUMENTS for all those undocumented immigrants.

IF all undocumented immigrants had legal status and our borders were fully secured, this horrific problem would be 90% solved and workers would have a chance for "a living wage."

[Crystal Clarity]

96. I have been reading them, which is why I'm so perplexed

Of course one would expect to see dissenting opinions on such a hot button topic. However, in my short time here it appears that most folks on this site disagree with the new Arizona law. And the few that have come out in favor of it on this particular thread don't seem to mathematically jive with the recs vs. unrecs. either in this thread or on this site in general.

I agree BTW with some if not alot of what you've had to say so far. And with the exception of one or 2 major points you've made, you don't seem to far from the OP's point of view. There's clearly something I'm not getting IMHO... Just saying...

[ShortnFiery]

105. That makes a good and thoughtful democrat, IMO, to be "perplexed" -

This is a complex issue and I can UNDERSTAND (but don't agree with) my opponent's side. But don't you dare tell him - let's keep this between just you and I? :silly: ... I'm arguing the one perspective which I strongly favor.

[Crystal Clarity]

111. Yes it does...make for a good and thoughtful Liberal/Dem

:-)

Being perplexed about something means I'm actually giving a situation or matter some thought and wondering WHY something is or isn't the way it appears. And if an action step is necessary or not. Instead of impulsively jumping to a conclusion and rashly acting out on it.

[ShortnFiery]

116. Exactly! However, we've struggled with the illegal immigration problem as a nation too

long to not both secure the border and provide a mechanism for citizenship (with papers) for those folks who have no options.

It's not rash to flatly claim that our Federal Government has "dropped the ball." The foregoing is precisely why we have reached a crisis point and emotions run high on both sides of this issue.

[Crystal Clarity]

129. I didn't mean to imply

that either you or your opinions are rash. And I'm sorry if it sounded that way. Not my intention at all. I don't know you or your postings enough to make the assumption even to myself let alone on DU. You clearly are very passionate about this issue but I've seen nothing so far to suggest that you haven't thought it through thoroughly.

Oh, and just so you know, we agree on one thing...The Federal Government DID drop the ball on this (especially under Bush when this really began to fester), but Arizona's reaction to the Federal Government's inaction was WAY over the top IMHO. I haven't lost hope in Obama yet though.

[ShortnFiery]

141. Oh no, you come across as genuine.

I'm admittedly getting a little defensive. It's been a pleasure discussing this topic with you. Thanks for your insight and opinion.

[Juneboarder]

167. Can you please clarify what this "horrific problem" is?

What are the illegal immigrants doing that is so horrific? I'm just trying to go back to the root of this whole debate and want to know what your thoughts are on that matter...

[blondeatlast]

208. I've lived in AZ for over 40 years; grown up in the very rural/agri county of Pinal

and have lived in Tucson and now reside for a very long time in Phoenix.

It's purely manufactured; there is no problem. But according to some on DU, damn my substantial personal experience, there's a problem. and it is all framed in the language of John Mccain tv ads, interestingly enough.

[readmoreoften]

102. Oh my god, I actually agree with an NJ Maverick post. Fascinating.

Anyway, thanks for posting this.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

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[Raineyb]

164. Hell must have frozen over. I actually agree with you on something. n/t

[leftstreet]

170. It's sad to see all this fighting over something that'll NEVER be reformed

Your politicians and their re-election campaign strategists thank you

[Name removed]

219. Deleted message

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