NYT: What collapsing empire looks like...

[kpete]

Friday, Aug 6, 2010 12:07 ET
What collapsing empire looks like
By Glenn Greenwald


As we enter our ninth year of the War in Afghanistan with an escalated force, and continue to occupy Iraq indefinitely, and feed an endlessly growing Surveillance State, reports are emerging of the Deficit Commission hard at work planning how to cut Social Security, Medicare, and now even to freeze military pay. But a new New York Times article today illustrates as vividly as anything else what a collapsing empire looks like, as it profiles just a few of the budget cuts which cities around the country are being forced to make. This is a sampling of what one finds:

Plenty of businesses and governments furloughed workers this year, but Hawaii went further -- it furloughed its schoolchildren. Public schools across the state closed on 17 Fridays during the past school year to save money, giving students the shortest academic year in the nation.

Many transit systems have cut service to make ends meet, but Clayton County, Ga., a suburb of Atlanta, decided to cut all the way, and shut down its entire public bus system. Its last buses ran on March 31, stranding 8,400 daily riders.

Even public safety has not been immune to the budget ax. In Colorado Springs, the downturn will be remembered, quite literally, as a dark age: the city switched off a third of its 24,512 streetlights to save money on electricity, while trimming its police force and auctioning off its police helicopters.

There are some lovely photos accompanying the article, including one showing what a darkened street in Colorado looks like as a result of not being able to afford street lights. Read the article to revel in the details of this widespread misery. Meanwhile, the tiniest sliver of the wealthiest -- the ones who caused these problems in the first place -- continue to thrive. Let's recall what former IMF Chief Economist Simon Johnson said last year in The Atlantic about what happens in under-developed and developing countries when an elite-caused financial crises ensues:

Squeezing the oligarchs, though, is seldom the strategy of choice among emerging-market governments. Quite the contrary: at the outset of the crisis, the oligarchs are usually among the first to get extra help from the government, such as preferential access to foreign currency, or maybe a nice tax break, or -- here's a classic Kremlin bailout technique -- the assumption of private debt obligations by the government. Under duress, generosity toward old friends takes many innovative forms. Meanwhile, needing to squeeze someone, most emerging-market governments look first to ordinary working folk -- at least until the riots grow too large.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/05/the-quiet-coup/7364/

more:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/07/us/07cutbacksWEB.html?_r=1&hp
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/

[begin_within]

1. Why don't we start by ENDING the STUPID WARS.

[FiveGoodMen]

4. Because the guy in the White House won't let us.

Why won't he?

That, I don't know.

[n2doc]

15. It is what we told us he would do all along!

or, at least, that's what I've been told around here... :eyes:

[Jackpine Radical]

16. He's ending the war in Iraq.

Henceforth it will be known as a police action.

[bvar22]

27. And with the wave of a Magic Wand,

50,000 "Combat Troops" will be magically transformed into "Non-Combat Troops".

[Jackpine Radical]

28. I suppose that will at least save us having to pay them combat pay.

God knows we need to save where we can to pay for Afghanistan.

[bvar22]

31. LOL.

Gotta take what you can find these days.

I DID read yesterday that cutting Veterans Benefits is "on the table".

[Jackpine Radical]

36. Yes, I heard that too.

I can't imagine anyone wanting to stay in for 20 these days. Endless wars, high likelihood of sustaining brain or psychological injuries that the military prefers not to acknowledge, and at the end you're cheated of your benefits.

[JDPriestly]

73. They need to cut CEO salaries first.

The CEOs argue that their outrageous salaries are "incentives" to keep them at their jobs.

Do you suppose that if we taxed their incentives out of existence, we could get some better human beings in their CEO positions? Maybe some people who don't need outrageous salaries as incentives? Maybe some people who would do their jobs out of love for humanity?

Maybe if we paid the CEOs the same amount that we pay our general practitioners and family doctors, or, let's say our teachers and nurses, we could get some people in their leadership positions who would put the interests of others before their own. Maybe our country would be in better shape.

None of us are perfect, but too many of the leaders of Americas businesses are just unacceptably incompetent and on top of that unconcerned about the welfare of other people and our country.

[pezDispenser]

74. no doubt CEO's make way too much $

compared to the average worker, but how would cutting CEO salaries help solve state budget crises?

[JDPriestly]

77. If CEO salaries were cut, more money would probably go into the

salaries of ordinary working people. And the ordinary working people would pay taxes on that money. A lot of the money that the CEOs get is taken in forms that avoid taxes.

[Jackpine Radical]

98. Hey, you make it sound like just anybody can do a CEO job.

Nothing is further from the truth. Do you think high-functioning psychopaths are easy to find?

[Grinchie]

115. They aren't, thus the High Pay Scale.

[Grinchie]

114. You say "Incentives", I call it "Hush Money"

Or the Legal Defense Fund Lawaway plan.

Either way, it keeps the self reinforcing Ponzi Scheme going.

[Goldstein1984]

90. Which was the goal all along

Empire looks like crumbling infrastructure at home and military outposts scattered around the globe.

On edit: Fixed typo

[WinkyDink]

96. "Embassy Staff."

[flyarm]

59. I do not believe Congress ever declared Iraq a war, so It has always been a police action

I could be wrong, but when Bush started his bombing of Iraq and the occupation, Congress had not declared it a war, and only congress has that exclusive right under our constitution.

[SugarShack]

66. Because a select few make money off war that we pay for, they are war profiteers

[liberal N proud]

87. Because the group really running this country will not let him

:tinfoilhat:

I don't think the President has as much control in government as we like to believe.


:tinfoilhat:

[FiveGoodMen]

2. We haven't run out of people or resources

But we're out of money because the rich took it all and we're too stupid to take it back.

[Newest Reality]

10. Considering what money is ...

that's like saying we can't go on a trip today because we have run out of miles. Oh, want to build a house? Sorry, we are all out of inches to measure with.

[FiveGoodMen]

12. No, it's not.

Money itself is nothing, but we use money to keep track of how much of the pie each of us gets. And we back that decision up with laws and prisons.

We've decided to let the rich make all the decisions and take away all our rights.

Either we take the money back or we declare a new economic system with new money or we continue to be crushed.

It's not about the specifics of our record-keeping system, it's about the decision to give everything to a few.

We need to take back the power, and the most straightforward way of doing that is to take back the money.

[U4ikLefty]

105. That was some good stuff!!!

I love it when people cut through the BS to get to the real point.

[LynzM]

13. Yep.

But unfortunately, that's the way our society works, right now. It's lame. We have housing enough to house all the homeless, and food enough to feed the starving, and it goes to waste because of this construct of money, not the scarcity of the resources themselves. :grr:

[DeSwiss]

26. BINGO!!! +1000

[hay rick]

34. Nail head meet hammer.

Well said. This is the root problem in our society at this time. If we can't fix that we probably can't fix anything important.

[glitch]

85. They've got all the money, but they're still looting people and resources.

Cheney's 2005 law allowing fracking is one prime example of resources (not just gas but more importantly water, forests, topsoil, ecosystems), the Iraq-Afghanistan+ wars are the prime example of people.

We're stunned now (shocked and awed at being attacked from within) but that wears off, eventually.

[Goldstein1984]

93. And those without money

Provide a steady stream of recruits (aka, economic refugees) for the military.

I don't know about where anyone else lives, but I'm not seeing many recruiting commercials anymore in Alaska. Why waste money advertising when you have a steady stream of people induced to "patriotism" by the need for food and shelter?

[Grinchie]

116. Actually, people are too stupid to stop using the Money.

[Poboy]

3. k to the R

[snot]

5. K&R'd

And see, e.g., this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8892485&mesg_id=8892485

[lovuian]

6. The American Empire just like the British Empire is dying

on one hand the powers to be invade countries and then expect the children of the US to stay and defend their interests

Its collapsing and imploding

9 years Aghanistan and now the reality is a Severe depression and Bankruptcy of the Empire

[southmost]

18. just let it die already

i'm almost to that point of despondency, since many of our voices are no longer being heard... this continent has been subject to several empires over the last few hundred years..(just hope whatever emerges will be better)

[Javaman]

20. "just hope whatever emerges will be better"

I hope so too, but like many times in history, it's the interim between the old and the new, when the chaos of control rules, is what scares me the most.

The reign of terror comes to mind. Given our current landscape of stupidity, I expect nothing less.

[bvar22]

30. An even more apt comparison:

The collapse of the Soviet Empire.
The parallels are frightening, including the quagmire of Afghanistan.
We are at the stage of the collapse where rapacious criminals are looting the public treasury with the protection and cooperation of a corrupt government.

[ThomThom]

62. Well if we break up into 50 separate states at least Texas would be happy

It might be good. Would end the police actions and close all those useless bases around the world. And don't forget the Federal Reserve and all our debt would be wiped out. The world economy would collapse but who cares, it was all just a joke anyway right. The rich will still have all there money, oh wait maybe not.

[Bigmack]

65. 2 must read books...

Collapse by Jared Diamond...

".... in general, Diamond provides fine and well-reasoned historical examples, making the case that many times, economic and environmental concerns are one and the same. With Collapse, Diamond hopes to jog our collective memory to keep us from falling for false analogies or forgetting prior experiences, and thereby save us from potential devastations to come. While it might seem a stretch to use medieval Greenland and the Maya to convince a skeptic about the seriousness of global warming, it's exactly this type of cross-referencing that makes Collapse so compelling."

and even better..

Reinventing Collapse: The Soviet Example and American Prospects by Dmitry Orloff

"In the waning days of the American empire, we find ourselves mired in political crisis, with our foreign policy coming under sharp criticism and our economy in steep decline. These trends mirror the experience of the Soviet Union in the early 1980s. Reinventing Collapse examines the circumstances of the demise of the Soviet superpower and offers clear insights into how we might prepare for coming events.

Rather than focusing on doom and gloom, Reinventing Collapse suggests that there is room for optimism if we focus our efforts on personal and cultural transformation. With characteristic dry humor, Dmitry Orlov identifies three progressive stages of response to the looming crisis:

Mitigation—alleviating the impact of the coming upheaval
Adaptation—adjusting to the reality of changed conditions
Opportunity—flourishing after the collapse
He argues that by examining maladaptive parts of our common cultural baggage, we can survive, thrive, and discover more meaningful and fulfilling lives, in spite of steadily deteriorating circumstances.

This challenging yet inspiring work is a must-read for anyone concerned about energy, geopolitics, international relations, and life in a post-Peak Oil world."

[Goldstein1984]

94. Another must read book:

"Washington Rules: America's Path to Permanent War" by Andrew Bacevich

It's about how we got into this militaristic mindset, in which the U.S. assumed the authority to overrule other nations and go around the U.N. anytime their interests conflict. All the while, "Call it habit or conditioning or socialization: The citizens of the United States have essentially forfeited any capacity to ask first-order questions about the fundamentals of national security policy." And, "Beyond the Beltway, the Pentagon's global posture generates far less interest than the latest doings of Hollywood celebrities."

[Bigmack]

104. He's a hero... nt

[Hannah Bell]

7. Another example of the waste of capitalism: the streetlights are functional, the power is available

but there's NO MONEY.

Thus perfectly useable goods rot away, accidents & crime rise, etc.

Similar to the Depression-era farmers who dumped their produce & milk rather than send it to market -- not enough MONEY demand to make their costs.

[Flatulo]

53. But the money is just a symbol...

It's an article of faith between those who exchange it. It's much more than just paper - it's an idea.

When we take away the idea behind money - that the money represents value - then we have to directly barter for everything, since there is no medium of exchange except goods and services.

When the lights go out, it's not becaue of a lack of paper. It's because there is no value to exchange for the electricity to run the lights. In order for a country to have it's currency mean anything, it has to produce goods. This is where we are falling on our ass. We just don't make anything anymore.

This is is my (probably simple-minded) understanding of it. There's obviously electricity to run lights, but the city has nothing else of value to offer the power company in exchange for power.

If the power company were to give the electricity to the city for free, then they would have nothing to buy fuel with, pay workers, etc and soon there there would be no power company.

[Hannah Bell]

61. you're misinformed.

us exports, 2004:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_exp_of_goo_and_ser_con_2000_us-goods-services-constant-2000-us


Top World Oil Producers, 2008 (thousand barrels per day)

Rank Country Production
1 Saudi Arabia 10,782
2 Russia 9,790
3 United States 8,514

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/country/index.cfm

At the end of 2008, the U.S. wind power nameplate capacity became the largest in the world, followed by Germany, with Spain a close third. Because U.S. wind farms have a higher average capacity factor than those in Germany due to higher average wind speeds, the U.S. became the world's largest producer of energy from the wind in mid-2008.<9><10>

In the past, the U.S. wind industry relied largely on imported components; however, there has been a shift towards domestic manufacturing that is likely to continue. Since 2005 many turbine manufacturing leaders have opened U.S. facilities; of the top 10 global manufacturers in 2007, seven — Vestas, GE Energy, Gamesa, Suzlon, Siemens, Acciona, and Nordex — have an American manufacturing presence. In addition, Clipper Windpower, which is based in the U.S., has joined GE as a major domestic player in the production of utility-scale wind turbines, with the two companies together accounting for 50% of the 2008 domestic turbine market.<46><47><48>

As of April 2009, over 100 companies are producing components for wind turbines, employing thousands of workers in the manufacture of parts as varied as towers, composite blades, bearings and gears. Many existing companies in traditional manufacturing states have retooled to enter the wind industry. Their manufacturing facilities are spread across 40 states, employing workers from the Southeast to the Steel Belt, to the Great Plains and on to the Pacific Northwest.<46>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_States


top 4 steel producers 2007-2008

Crude steel production (million tonnes):
— World 1,351.3 1326.5

1 People's Republic of China 494.9 500.5
2 European Union 209.7 198.0
3 Japan 120.2 118.7
4 United States 98.1 91.4

US steel production has been constant at about 100 million tons since the 70s. But it's produced by an ever-decreasing number of workers due to automation. The corps still profit but the people don't.


The leading business field by gross business receipts is wholesale and retail trade; by net income it is manufacturing.<72> Chemical products are the leading manufacturing field.<73>

The United States is the third largest producer of oil in the world, as well as its largest importer.<74> It is the world's number one producer of electrical and nuclear energy, as well as liquid natural gas, sulfur, phosphates, and salt.

While agriculture accounts for just under 1% of GDP,<71> the United States is the world's top producer of corn<75> and soybeans.<76> The New York Stock Exchange is the world's largest by dollar volume.<77> Coca-Cola and McDonald's are the two most recognized brands in the world.<78>

The United States leads the world in scientific research papers and impact factor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States.



In 1970, corporations paid 17% of total income taxes. Today, it's something like 7%, THE LOWEST LEVEL ON RECORD. Is it because there are no corporations in the US producing anything? No, it's not.





In 1986 by IRS figures the top 1% got 11% of total national income. The bottom 50% got 17%.

In 2005, the top 1% got 23% of national income & the bottom 50% got 13%.

That, in a nutshell, is why cities & counties are shutting down. The top has all the money & doesn't want to be taxed for services to the peons.

[Enthusiast]

80. Your information can't be correct.

I have heard nearly every prominent Republican say that the U.S. has the highest corporate taxes in the world. Usually there are no Democrats around to refute this when they say this. What do you say to that?

[Flatulo]

83. Wow, thanks for the dump. I know we still make big-ticket items,

like airframes and heavy machinery, but I had no idea we were still a significant producer of steel.

But we've lost consumer electronics, textiles, shoes, tires and a third of the auto market. I'm a design engineer, and in the last 20 years, I haven't been able to specify one single part to be manufactured in the US. First it was Japan, then Singapore and Malaysia, and now China.

I hear you on corporate taxes, too. The last company I worked for was a $12b outfit, and they paid not one cent in income taxes. They were based in the Cayman Islands (yeah, right - they had a PO box there).

Thanks Hannah. I appreciate the time you took to dig up that information.

[Hannah Bell]

111. on the electronics piece: china is supposedly the largest exporter of electronics but it's kind of a

scam, to whit:

3.4 It is well known that foreign invested firms have been driving the rapid growth
of China’s exports and producing more than half of China’s exports. In hightech
products, foreign invested firms have been playing an even more crucial
role, dominating China’s high-tech exports.

3.5 Table 2 shows the contribution of foreign invested firms to high-tech exports.
In 1998, foreign invested firms exported US$15 billion high-tech products,
about 74% of China’s high-tech exports.

Since then, the dominance of foreign invested firms in high-tech exports has been strengthening as more and more FDI flows into China. In 2005, foreign invested firms exported US$192 billion
and their share rose to a record high of 88%.4 The share of indigenous Chinese
firms in high-tech export only increased slightly from 2006 to 2008 to 14.8%.

In other words, the absolute dominance of foreign invested firm in high-tech
exports remains. If advanced technologies are embedded in these exports, the
property rights of these technologies are mainly under the control of foreign
companies.

www.eai.nus.edu.sg/BB506.pdf


Foreign direct investment (FDI) is believed to be another important reason for
China’s exceptionally high level of export sophistication. Exports by foreign invested
enterprises (FIEs) accounted for more than half of China’s exports since 2001, and more
than 85 percent of China’s ATP exports every year since 2003 (Ferrantino, et al., 2007, p.
40).2 The FDI explanation is reinforced by the role of FIEs in China’s processing exports,
especially in high-tech processing exports. Branstetter and Lardy (2006, p. 39) pointed
out that “most exports of electronic and information products are assembled not by
Chinese owned firms but by foreign firms that are using China as an export platform.”

http://www.ceibs.edu/faculty/xubin/Chinaexp.pdf



Most electronics exports from china are in reality wholly-foreign-owned, with chinese contractors taking only a small fraction of the profits. This gives corps like apple & microsoft "plausible deniability" for labor rights violations while allowing them to reap big profits.

China is being used as a low-wage assembly platform for foreign capital, with the benefits flowing mainly to elites, & the public is told a fairy story about what's really going on.

There's a covert round-robin going on & the beneficiaries are the global ruling class, which is international.

Same thing in many low-wage states, including ireland:

In 1973, the year Ireland joined the then European Economic Community, 55% of total Irish exports went to the UK.

In 2009, foreign-owned firms - - mainly American - - are responsible for 90% of Irish exports. Of the remaining 10% from Irish-owned firms, 53% go to the UK.

US multinationals were an overwhelmingly dominant factor in the export led take-off of the Irish economy from the early 1990's. However, after the end of the US high-tech boom, construction became Ireland's engine of growth. Irish full-time employment in manufacturing and internationally traded services fell 10,297 in the period 2000/2007 while the total workforce expanded by 605,000 in sectors such as construction, public services, distribution, retail and other services. During the period, annual venture capital investment in Irish business was less than €200 million while overseas Irish investment in commercial property exceeded €10 billion.

In developing country growth phases, foreign-owned companies typically lead the export surge. For example, in China, what are termed foreign-funded companies, are responsible for over 50 per cent of the overall value of exports and almost 90 per cent in the consumer electronics sector. What is striking about Ireland is that foreign-owned firms, mainly American, remain responsible for about 90 per cent of total exports. Of the residual 10 per cent, about 53 per cent goes to the traditional market - the UK, while up to 65 per cent of exports from indigenous firms come from the food and drink sectors according to State agency Forfás.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1016593.shtml.


iow, multinational corps are scamming everyone & using the illusion of "competition" to rachet down everyone's wages & living standards. They play one country's workforce against another's, same as they used to play one area of the united states against another.

[Goldstein1984]

97. Great information dump!

And a good new source (Nationmaster) I didn't have in my list. Thanks!

[CrownPrinceBandar]

8. I never thought it could happen here..............

but I guess until they cut off cable TV folks will continue to turn a blind eye to it.

[Javaman]

22. As long as the tv machine continues to lull the american public into

the false belief that anyone can be famous (the new lottery) and prices at the pump, although lower than '07 are still within an "affordable range", nothing will change.

Once the cable goes black or the price of the pump goes up, then you will see people get pissed.

We are a very selfish nation. It's well known that we now kill innocent civilians half a world away, but does the nation as a whole give a shit? Naaaaa.

However, if we wake up one day and the price at the pump sky rockets to 5 bucks a gallon, then and only then will you see people freak out over the "inhumanity" of it all.

We are a stupid people.

[DeSwiss]

29. +1000

Well, America has produced a country of people who’ve never had to grow up. They live in this illusion that reality is not an impediment to what they desire. They can have everything they want, they just have to dig deep within themselves, grasp that they are truly exceptional or believe that Jesus can produce miracles.

It’s a form of magical thinking that is fed to us from the media to the corporations, from Oprah to Hollywood to corporatism to the Christian right, and it has created a society where we are captivated by illusion, an illusion about who we are and where we’re going, and that’s a very common characteristic among dying civilizations that lack the emotional fortitude to grasp that the world’s are crumbling around them so they retreat into the magical.

If you read Cicero or Joseph Roth, Freud (end of Austro-Hungarian) they saw very clearly, both the disintegration and the capacity of people around them to accept it. The danger is when you remain in a state of illusion, you essentially perpetuate an infantilism that leaves you unprepared, physiologically, intellectually and emotionally for collapse, and when collapse comes, you react like children, you search for a savior, a demagogue, someone who promises vengeance, moral renewal and fantastic visions of a new glory. It’s an old, old story, and we are not immune to the cycles of human history. The Greeks did not believe in a linear time, they believed that societies had a period of growth, maturation and decay, and I think the Greeks are right.

So when your family doesn’t want to hear, they are retreating into the far more comforting arena of illusions that are provided for them by corporate entities that seek to keep us ignorant and disempowered and stop us from fighting back. And will they crush us like bugs? Probably. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t resist. Resistance is a moral imperative. The problem with the left is that it was seduced by the practical, and that is what killed it as a moral force.

We have a commitment to non-historical values, justice, ... protection of life, love, which are of course deemed by the world to be impractical. But which keep alive that possibility of another way of being and another form of community, and at this point I think we have to look at the Middle Ages and the monastic communities that kept alive learning, humanities and life in a time of darkness so that these great contributions of human history are not lost, and that becomes a battle worth fighting because as we enter an age of barbarism, the snuffing out of these great forces of humanism will be tragic for the human race and I think we have to focus much of our energy in trying to protect these non-historical forces, commitments to values, and that’s going to entail rebellion and perhaps even great personal risk.

But I think it is worth doing because at this point we can create a structure that can disarm corporatism, but because we can at least protect those virtues that permit people to live in ways that they are not slaves.

~ Chris Hedges http://www.truthdig.com/report/page2/live_chat_chris_hedges_on_global_warming_20100721/">Link

[bertman]

51. Thanks for this post, DeSwiss.

[DeSwiss]

58. You're welcome. n/t

[Steely_Dan]

68. Interesting....

It's almost as if we have to perish in order for a better tomorrow.

-P

[DeSwiss]

108. I'm not sure "perish" is the thing.....

...we must do. I think we have to change the paradigm, our way of thinking about ourselves, the world and how to live in it. I'm often intrigued by the examples of nature. Extremities found in nature are common, they're even necessary. Storms, droughts, hurricanes and floods all might just be seen by many as "killers" -- as nature's devastation in-the-making.

But when we draw back to a longer and wider view, we realize that these concentrations of the nature's energy are necessary for renewal, for growth and for abundance. They reduce competition for resources down to the surviving few. Droughts contain pestilence. Old and sickly trees and limbs are removed. Soils are reinvigorated in the deltas after the floods. And the cycle is renewed.

And we are a part of that same natural cycle.....

[Goldstein1984]

95. Life takes Visa

For everything else, there's Mastercard.

[DeSwiss]

109. "Life takes Visa....

...for everything else, there's Mastercard TARP.

/Fixed. ;)

[a la izquierda]

100. Happily, I am an historian...

and I get my PhD this year, so I guess I'll survive the collapse of society. Someone needs to record this for posterity (actually, I study a failed state-Mexico)...I guess I chose wisely in terms of career paths.

But there are no jobs at the moment...

[DeSwiss]

110. Well then let me say in advance, congratulations upon achieving your PhD.

Years ago (1990) after obtaining my masters, I was offered full funding by my department to complete my PhD in the area of Public Policy and Administration. I turned it down. Even then I must have known I couldn't stay in government. And shortly thereafter, I began working with nonprofits (housing coops) and have done so exclusively ever since. Affordable housing is at a premium now, and government jobs (the way they currently function) would be too frustrating for me. So I'm happy with my choice.

Chris Hedges speaks here of a need for us to record what's happened and how we got to this dismal place. So that if our progeny has any kind of a future at all, then maybe they will at least benefit from our mistakes and learn of our triumphs (those that we achieved in spite of ourselves). In-general I agree with this idea. What bothers me I suppose, is that the monks of the Dark Ages as the preservers of past knowledge only later used that knowledge as a means of coercion and control for their institution's own benefit. And not everything that they preserved was true (as the Inquisitions will attest) -- but rather was a stylized and syncretistic version of ancient myths mixed with man's fears about what comes after death. So the recording of our mistakes (once again) as our best option for the future is not encouraging. Not if we only repeat what the monks did before us.

On the other hand, what else can we do, if we can't seem to get it right?

[a la izquierda]

113. I often wonder if we do learn from mistakes...

look at Mexico, for instance. There is a country that fought tooth and nail over politics for a century. Then they had a monstrous revolution, the centennial of which is in November. The people revolted against oligarchy, lack of land, labor abuses, etc.
They are dealing with the exact same problems now. We are dealing the same problems (in a manner of speaking). So I vote no.

Thanks for the congrats. This is going to be a crazy academic year. I have no clue what I'll do at the end...work somewhere!!

[damntexdem]

9. What's amazing is that it appeared in the NYT.

For the most part, the MSM turns our nation's death spiral into spin.

[closeupready]

11. K&R

I hope they realize how constant warfare is destroying our own society from inside before it's too late to change course.

[Starry Messenger]

14. In 10 years or less we're going to look like India.

The oligarchs have calculated just how much they can squeeze out of humans before they start rioting. This is what capitalism looks like folks. They want to turn this country into a neoliberal paradise, and they are succeeding.

[Javaman]

19. The same old pieces of decaying wood will still be used to prop up "the american way of life"

Many on the right, or whatever form they take, will continue to wear their blinders. We, on the left, will continue to fight the uphill corporate controlled battle.

The corporations will control even more than they do now and the rich will continue to live off our sweat and toil.

We are on a grand race to the bottom. Until the bottom rises up, the top will continue to press down.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

35. Well said.

Your phrasing in the last sentence is spot-on.

:thumbsup:

[Steely_Dan]

69. I Love That Pic Javaman...n/t

[Subdivisions]

21. Maybe in 10 years we will look like India does today. By then, India will probably

be in BETTER shape than we will be.

[Ignis]

39. But in 10 years, India won't.

They're investing in infrastructure and technology at a rate that's amazing for a developing nation.

They're also giving huge amounts of aid (relative to their GDP) to Afghanistan--mostly to get back at Pakistan for training Afghani mujaheddin during the Soviet occupation, only to turn a blind eye when those same "freedom fighters" moved into Kashmir to fight the Hindu infidels.

[burnsei sensei]

106. I think we should call it globalist colonialism.

The entire world is the colony of a specific multicultural elite.
Every economy is extractive.
Every person is expendable.

[City Lights]

17. K&R. nt

[KamaAina]

23. Camden, N.J. is preparing to close its entire library system

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8892485&mesg_id=8892485

:scared:

[Riverman]

71. Camden has been a hell hole forever. A model of capitalist neglect,

corruption and government collusion. To see the future see Camden, Toledo, Gary, Detroit, and on and on! Exceptional indeed, eh?

[mdmc]

24. $$$ for war

[DeSwiss]

25. K&R

The answers are all around us, but we lack leadership and vision. And courage.

[awoke_in_2003]

54. +10000

and it just doesn't apply to electricity, we are lacking leadership in EVERY aspect of American life.

[DeSwiss]

60. Exactly.

Its the golden opportunity that our present leadership is missing. They apparently cannot see the imperative we have for a change in a new direction and I think it is largely because they're too far removed from the reality that "we" live with, to see it. That, and then there's the greed and the stupidity. And many of them are just too scared of being wrong, or called stupid or radical. Or worse -- a socialist.

If one looks at history, you won't find a civilization that understood the true nature of its problems prior to its collapse. Individuals within it may have seen it, but not enough people in leadership positions either understood it, or had the courage to change their course.

We, on the other hand, have no excuse. We have their example and all that has been learned from past mistakes. And our technologies that we've developed since ancient times to help us overcome our fate, and yet we persist in making the same errors. I blame a large amount of this upon the "magical thinking" that religion provides as an escape from responsibility for this world. But mostly, the blame belongs to us for believing bullshit that as Sam Harris puts it: "we should have overcome by the third grade."

"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. In the first stage of life the mind is frivolous and easily distracted, it misses progress by failing in consecutiveness and persistence. This is the condition of children and barbarians, in which instinct has learned nothing from experience."

~ George Santayana, The Life of Reason, Volume 1, 1905

[Odin2005]

32. We are screwed beyond comprehension.

[alterfurz]

44. or as phrased elsewhere on DU (quoting Roseanne?):

"We are so far beyond fucked that the light from fucked won't reach us for 10,000 years"

[Steely_Dan]

70. LOLOLOLOLOL!

Now that's funny.

[lunatica]

33. We can survive collapse of Empire just like the British Empire, The French and

the Dutch did within the living memory of many of us. I don't get why people think we can't, or why people see the collapse of Empire as the death of a nation. It could be the best thing that ever happened to us. And to the rest of the countries we keep sticking out troops or money or noses into.

It would be lovely to be a country among equals. And there's no reason whatsoever to have super powers anymore.

[FiveGoodMen]

37. But we can't survive neo-con, christocratic rule

We'd be a whole different (terrible) country.

And that's the way our empire is collapsing; straight into the nightmares of mid-20th century cautionary tales.

1984 laid most of this out, but no one reads it.

One otherwise-intelligent acquaintance of mine said that since the year 1984 was already past ...

[court jester]

46. "1984 laid most of this out, but no one reads it."

I must disagree.

Lots and lots of people read it.

Many seem to be using it as a training manual.
Wouldn't 'ol George have had fun reading about the "Patriot Act".
As to your friend, tell him 60 is the new 40. Louis Black can pound sand.
So it's been 20 yrs and when you factor in inflation...

The answer to 1984 is 1776!

[midnight armadillo]

57. No, not 1776...thnk 1789. in France.

now that's a depressing scenario.

[krabigirl]

76. No, so that's why we have to fight so that won't happen.

[Jackpine Radical]

38. Post-empire Britain is a land of multi-generational poverty

for many.

Not that we're any better off, of course. We didn't even have to wait for our empire to fall to reap the benefits of collapse.

[glitch]

43. That was being reversed until Thatcher. Just like ours was being reversed until Reagan.

Didn't have to be this way.

[Enthusiast]

82. Perzactly. Fucking Reagan and Thatcher.

They did real and lasting harm.

[Control-Z]

40. Thank you, lunatica.

Reading this thread has been just depressing. The gloom and doom, all or nothing mentality makes me crazy. Nothing like pronouncing ones own worst fears as an only possible outcome.

Your POV is valid and much appreciated.

[awoke_in_2003]

55. Those countries were civilized

before their collapse. We went from infanthood to superpower and never gained civilization.

[Enthusiast]

81. But this simply will not happen

in light of the present political realities.

The media will only push the corporate narrative. This stops progress in its tracks. The American citizens literally should be up in arms after the Citizens United decision yet there is nary a peep. This is because the Citizens United story is largely suppressed.

[pmorlan1]

41. K & R

I wish people would take their heads out of the sand and begin paying attention to what's going on around them. The Greenwald piece is devastating.

[glitch]

42. For the Republic to live the Empire must die. nt

[Poboy]

45. I like that.

[glitch]

56. Me too. Read it somewhere recently. :) nt

[mahina]

47. During those furloughs, the janitors were in school, the principles, vice principles,

cafeteria staff, maintenance staff- everybody but the kids and the teachers.

Gary Hooser (heart) said one of his filipino constituents told him that he came from a very poor country, but even they never ever closed the schools. It was a shameful and stupid thing to do. We already had the fewest instruction days in the country.

Auwe.

[Joe Bacon]

48. This country is finished.

We saw what happened in the Soviet Union. The same thing is happening to the United States right now. It's not a question of "if", it's a question of "when".

[L0oniX]

49. Tell everyone you know just how much gets spent on the military every year ..1 trillion+

"total for defense spending to between $880 billion and $1.03 trillion in fiscal year 2010"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States

...and then tell them about how much Russia is spending.

"Russia's budget spending on state defense orders will amount to 1.2 trillion rubles ($46.8 billion) in 2009, first deputy prime minister Sergei Ivanov said on 12 September 2008. The spending figure is outlined in the Russian budget for 2009-2011 which was due to be considered by Russia's lower house of parliament, the State Duma, on September 19. The three-year budget envisaged additional spending of 170 billion rubles ($6.63 billion) in comparison to previous annual programs"

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mo-budget.htm

[bertman]

50. Hear!! Hear!! Rec. nt

[WillyT]

52. HUGE K & R !!!

:mad:

:banghead:

:kick:

[Amonester]

63. K&R - How about publishing the pic of the Empire map every day...

That one might be a little outdated, though. How about an updated one each day on the front page, NYT ?

And a question, like "Who Profits?"

[AtheistCrusader]

64. I appreciate cutting out the light pollution but

the reasoning behind WHY they turned off the streetlights is pretty scary.

[laughingliberal]

67. K & R nt

[defendandprotect]

72. End the wars bankrutping the Treasury-- Overturn Bush/Reagan tax cuts for wealthy . . .

Overturn the trade agreements sucking jobs out of America --

and let's make sure that Obama doesn't put any new trade agreements in place!!

[slay]

75. but.. but.. k&r if you like president obama makes it all all right!

glad some people on this site are willing to confront real problems like Obamas support for the Afghanistan horror and his opposition to gay marriage rather than stupid "i like obama i wonder if he likes me he's so dreamy" threads that accomplish nothing and make SOME of us look we worship at the cult of Obama. i don't get it i guess - since when am i supposed to support this STUPID POINTLESS war and say i'm ok with Obama thinking gay marriage is wrong when i know otherwise? blind support get us nowhere and makes us no better than republicans. and why are dems a party of war now???

[earth mom]

78. K & R & Bookmarked!

:kick:

[Enthusiast]

79. We invaded Afghanistan

mostly so that Dubya Bush could look tough after 9/11. There were far more efficient ways to deal with the terrorist problem than invading an entire nation that did not attack us.

The Iraq War was completely without merit. It was mostly about rewarding Bush supporters with war profit windfalls. The Iraq War was also an exercise in massaging Bush's fragile ego.

[tomp]

88. there is no "terrorist" problem outside the context of imperialism.

the powers that be in the U.S. have failed to conduct a full investigation of the 9/11 tragedy. this is not an accident and it suggests complicity in the event. the plausible hypothesis that bush/cheney, inc orchestrated the tragedy to allow for the placement of troops in both afghanistan and iraq has yet to be disproved.

windfall profits AND control of essential resources AND general geopolitical advantage.

i think your suggestion about this being about bush's ego is off the mark. the powers that be are definitely not concerned with that, except that a sociopath is required for such adventures. we are in fact being ruled by sociopaths.

[OwnedByFerrets]

84. The "empire" is certainly on the downswing. Nothing short of

becoming a self-contained society will fix that. And that isn't going to happen. The powers that be will suck the American ppl completely dry.

[girl gone mad]

86. k & r

[mike r]

89. A Must-Read

[davidwparker]

91. Wow. You really have to give it to us. We care so much

about spreading freedom around the world that will be bankrupt our country to do it.

Those ungrateful Afghans and Iraqis just don't know how good we are for them.

[gauguin57]

92. We didn't start the fire ... it was always burnin' since the world's been turnin'...

Scary.

[Beacool]

99. It reminds me of the fall of the Roman Empire.

One of the most depressing threads I've read in some time. So many have contibuted to the decline of this once great country, both parties are at fault.

;(

[varelse]

101. K&R

[tedder10]

102. here are some other points

This generation is the first to be worse off then the previous generation.
Look at the children today, they are smaller and much fatter then their parents,
middle class incomes have been stagnant for decades.
leadership is lacking not only in the political sphere but in every sphere

What I believe is that the ideologies of the past have failed us, the analogy of Roman times is a
the most apt one as they also went through this and the winning ideology then was the Catholic Church
I wonder which ideology will win this time.

[roxiejules]

103. They don't need us anymore....

"During the 1980's when I was working to stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons, I had a disturbing conversation with a corporate CEO. While we were dining one summer evening...he told me that from a business standpoint, nuclear war would not occur until multinational corporations had succeded in commercializing China. After than accomplishment, he said, there would be no more room on Earth to expand the market economy (which must always, of course, be in a state of expansion), and so there would be no more viable reason for human beings to stay alive. His opinion refelcts to growing ethos of both an expansionist technological system and an addicted psyche; use up whatever resources are here now; when you run out, do whatever you must to get more - - with no regard for the consequences."

- Chellis Glendinning, My Name is Chellis and I'm in Recovery from Western Civilization

[Hannah Bell]

107. The empire stands. US bases span the globe. The empire is just squeezing its

citizen.

[seafan]

112. The thieves are making their getaway.

Glen Greenwald writes What collapsing empire looks like, on August 6, 2010, in response to the devastating NYT article that appeared the same day, titled, "Governments Go to Extremes as the Downturn Wears On":

.....

There are some lovely photos accompanying the article, including one showing what a darkened street in Colorado looks like as a result of not being able to afford street lights. Read the article to revel in the details of this widespread misery. Meanwhile, the tiniest sliver of the wealthiest -- the ones who caused these problems in the first place -- continues to thrive. Let's recall what former IMF Chief Economist Simon Johnson said last year in The Atlantic about what happens in under-developed and developing countries when an elite-caused financial crises ensues:

Squeezing the oligarchs, though, is seldom the strategy of choice among emerging-market governments. Quite the contrary: at the outset of the crisis, the oligarchs are usually among the first to get extra help from the government, such as preferential access to foreign currency, or maybe a nice tax break, or -- here's a classic Kremlin bailout technique -- the assumption of private debt obligations by the government. Under duress, generosity toward old friends takes many innovative forms. Meanwhile, needing to squeeze someone, most emerging-market governments look first to ordinary working folk -- at least until the riots grow too large.

The real question is whether the American public is too apathetic and trained into submission for that to ever happen.

UPDATE: It's probably also worth noting this Wall St. Journal article from last month -- with a subheadline warning: "Back to Stone Age" -- which describes how "paved roads, historical emblems of American achievement, are being torn up across rural America and replaced with gravel or other rough surfaces as counties struggle with tight budgets and dwindling state and federal revenue." Utah is seriously considering eliminating the 12th grade, or making it optional. And it was announced this week that "Camden (New Jersey) is preparing to permanently shut its library system by the end of the year, potentially leaving residents of the impoverished city among the few in the United States unable to borrow a library book free."

Does anyone doubt that once a society ceases to be able to afford schools, public transit, paved roads, libraries and street lights -- or once it chooses not to be able to afford those things in pursuit of imperial priorities and the maintenance of a vast Surveillance and National Security State -- that a very serious problem has arisen, that things have gone seriously awry, that imperial collapse, by definition, is an imminent inevitability?

Another moment of truth is upon us.



And the band plays on.