Capitalism can't even save itself, much less

[socialist_n_TN]

save our standard of living or the world. It won't happen. Why? Because the end all and be all of capitalism is profit. To paraphrase Vladmir Ilych, they would not only sell the rope used to hang them, they would sell it in bulk because THEY COULD MAKE MORE MONEY DOING IT.

THIS is the reason most REAL leftists (or at least this leftist) is bothered by the lack of even trying to rein in the excesses of capitalism. THE ENTIRE VIABILITY OF THE WORLD IS AT STAKE! With climate change and the recent, ongoing ecological disaster in the GOM, it's OBVIOUS that capitalism will kill us ALL if it leads to short term profit. That's why as a system it's actually evil.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

1. A year ago I would have been cheering right along side of you.

I'd love to see a government that focused on people over profit, that built more schools than bombs, had health care, could guarantee fair wages and safe working conditions, etc.

I still want that.

In fact I ache for that.

I just don't know who I would trust to do it.

Yeah, capitalists might sell you the rope used to hang themselves and sell it to you in bulk but from what I've seen of the people I helped elect if the hanging rope market is already saturated the leftover capitalists/profiteers will just re-brand themselves and sell themselves as progressives.

Those who would put profit or power or whatever it is than drives them to idolize some intangible over the homeless mother on the sidewalk will just infiltrate whatever platform of social justice we might applaud ourselves for having created. At the end of the day the profiteers will still have more than the rest of us and the homeless mother will still be on the sidewalk.

[woo me with science]

4. "I don't know who I would trust to do it."

Isn't that the truth.

I really think we are going to see either revolution or a dramatically different new third party at some point.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

7. I'd prefer 3rd party...less killing than a revolution

revolutions are just another name for war which is just another name for mass-murder and cruelty...even from our side.

But so what if there is a 3rd party. The profiteers will just go there too. They will go wherever they believe they can find the best deal.

The man I'm marrying this Sunday proudly calls himself a conservative. The small government kind. He fumed at the bailouts and a few other things I didn't think conservatives would object to but he did.

Then a couple of weeks ago when democrat politicians kept making the news for dodging taxes and whooping it up with grand luxury I became so depressed. And my cynicism just keeps getting worse. I told him I'm practically to the point where I don't want to call myself a liberal/progressive anymore because the people I worked for look just the same as the people I worked against.

Mr Gibbs didn't do much to improve my mood.

But the man I love told me to keep those things that make me a progressive, the hope, the love of people, etc.

But just understand crooks seek power and since they do they will corrupt whatever they get their hands on no matter how noble its intentions.

I think I finally understand what motivates him. He is a good man, he just doesn't trust people who peddle perfect cures for all ailments. I can't bring myself to say he is wrong.

[socialist_n_TN]

31. Well just like every squishy moderate on DU

has co-opted the title "leftist", mostly w/o having ANY clue what the word actually means positionwise, I would expect the capitalists to co-opt "socialist", when socialism becomes a popular and/or hip word. And it will.

You've just got to look at they're policy postition. To quote a famous socialist from Palastine, "By their fruits, you shall know them." A leftist is an anticapitalist. That's the way it's been since Marx. If they're not anticapitalist, they're not a leftist.

[ThomCat]

5. You are right.

The capitalists have given themselves so much power at this point, so much influence inside our government and inside all our institutions that they can co-opt and corrupt any effort we make to even attempt to save ourselves and reform the system.

Anything we do that looks like it has a chance to challenge the powers that be will be attacked from all sides, infiltrated, demonized, and rendered powerless and hated.

Meanwhile we will be bombarded with massive public relations campaigns to make us admire and even love something they control that resembles what we want, someone or something that looks like a progress, or looks like hope, so that we can waste all of our energy expecting change that never comes. We get token changes but big betrayals, and they get big windfalls over and over again. We lose, again.

But what can we do but keep trying?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

8. Capitalism isn't a thing that lives on its own

at one point it never existed.

People existed long before there was ever capitalism. But some people wanted more. So they made capitalism.

But even if we still all just lived in tribes these personality types would be infecting their tribes.

Destroy capitalism of you want but the personality type will still be there. They'll probably just re-invent it too.

[RKP5637]

10. Yep, it just morphs into something new and as destructive because the same

personality types are still there... they'll just re-brand themselves, if it's not money it will be obsession with power.

[Starry Messenger]

13. But what if we create a system that doesn't reward that behavior?

It's worth thinking about, and not feeling defeated at the beginning because of observation of what happens because of capitalism.

[RKP5637]

14. I certainly wish we could. Our current system just rewards all of the things that

are wrong with it for the majority of the citizens. Rather than working together for the betterment of all, we are by default pitted against each other. I read the Newsweek article on "Post-Anti-Americanism" and thought to myself, why would one expect any different. http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/09/post-anti-americanism.html

[Starry Messenger]

16. Newsweek is a depressing publication.

I think they encourage that sense of every person for themselves. They are a great cheerleader for the free market system. I don't know what the answer is either, but we need to look beyond our imposed role as consumers and foster solidarity. That's my wish. :)

[RKP5637]

22. Same here!!!

:)

[maryf]

23. foster solidarity...

you got mine, sister! :)

[Starry Messenger]

30. Thank you sister!

Same here! :fistbump:

[socialist_n_TN]

33. The system is already there Starry...........

It's called socialism. We've just got to figure out how to implement it here in the good ole USA.

Look at the ideals of each system. Capitalism's ideal is making as much money as possible, without caring how you do it. Socialism's ideal is from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs. Now which one of those ideals is more in keeping with social justice?

Edited to correct spelling

[Starry Messenger]

37. Agreed SnTN!

We already implement socialism in many ways in this country, so all of the naysayers who say this plan spells doom are already wrong. There is a way forward and we will find it! It's sure as heck better than the alternative, which is allowing the neoliberal selling off of all of our resources in the commons via privatization. Capitalism is already writing our obituary. It makes no sense to just let this happen to us.

[socialist_n_TN]

32. "But what can we do but keep trying"

Ain't that the truth. It's not just politics, it's a calling.

[AnArmyVeteran]

19. Great post. Wish I could recommend it!

[Odin2005]

2. K&R

[liberal N proud]

3. The problem is that power corrupts

No matter who you put in power, they will succumb to some sort of corruption. They will help their friends get contracts or other special preferences. It is human nature!

[TBF]

12. "Human Nature" is crap -

thinking like that is what keeps you enslaved. It's not bad actors, or greed - it's systemic.

[RKP5637]

15. Technology advances, civilizations not so much. There is a very thin veil between

supposed altruistic civilizations and barbarianism. And at the root of it is "Human Nature."

[socialist_n_TN]

34. It's not human nature. Human nature is petty

occasionally, but usually not cruel. However, the system of capitalism encourages an "Every person for himself" attitude. How can it NOT create a group of sociapaths.

[RKP5637]

36. That is an excellent point! Exceptionally excellent! Thanks! n/t

[socialist_n_TN]

38. Your welcome. Usually the Truth (capitalized deliberately)

makes for excellent points. :)

[Bluerthanblue]

17. i think it's more like human "nurture".

I don't think that people are inherently selfish and cruel. I believe that the way we are nurtured has a LOT to do with who we become, and that if a person is valued, cared for and treated well that the need to dominate or control others is not usually an issue.
Empathy is very important. Being encouraged to see things from each others perspective makes greed uncomfortable. A lofty ideal, but one which holds the best hope for a truly better world-

:grouphug:

[maryf]

24. a lofty but very worthy ideal...

:thumbsup:

[liberal N proud]

26. Maybe but how does that explain two brothers who are polar opposites?

One is compassionate and the other is self centered, rude and mean.

[TBF]

28. It's probably a mix of both is all that proves -

nature & nurture. Personalities are different. My daughter was out-going from birth - looking around at everyone - friendly as she got older. My son snuggled under his blanket, and he's still shy 3 years later.

I do believe people can change, and that's why I think it's a mix. They can also be influenced. Given that you'd think people would want to put in place a system that would encourage positive behavior (ie not greediness, competitiveness, etc).

[blindpig]

40. The social environment...

conditions social animals. The social environment of Capitalism encourages behavior which prioritizes profit and private gain over all. The emphasis of competition over cooperation, learned at a very young age, is but one aspect.

To paraphrase Marx. 'the ruling ideas of every are are those of the ruling class.'

[Cal Carpenter]

18. No, a system that rewards greed and corruption does

That's what capitalism is. That's what neo-liberal politicians support.

It's the system. Most people aren't greedy assholes. Most people just want a roof over there head, meaningful work, and food on their table.

A very small number of people people want multiple billions of dollars, and start from a point of privilege and are able to amass insane amounts of wealth. Our system encourages and rewards the latter, and the gap between the two groups grows rapidly. The greedy fuckers with obscene wealth are the ones people defend when they defend capitalism. Why do people defend a system that will *never* work for them? Why is it so hard to imagine another way?

The dominant global economic system and the politicians who support it in our so-called democracy are the corrupt and greedy ones.

The rest of us (eg 98% of the world) struggle daily just to get by.

[socialist_n_TN]

39. What's kind of odd to me about people

with the "Capitalist Attitude", i.e., greedy, every person for him/her self, more, more, it's never enough type of thinking, is that they actually can't even IMAGINE anybody WITHOUT that attitude. IF you profess the anticapitalist attitude, they think that you're just hiding your capitalist attitude for personal gain LIKE THEY WOULD! It's odd to me.

I don't think that most people really HAVE the capitalist attitude. I'm like you in that I think that most people just want to have enough to be comfortable (what they NEED) and want to feel worthwhile in what they DO (give according to their abilities). But a LOT of people are FORCED by prevailing propaganda to adopt the capitalist attitude even though they have NO chance of ever becoming a real capitalist and that leads to the total mess we find ourselves in today. It's an attitude that's sending the human race on the fast track to extinction.

[Pharaoh]

6. Well said.......

K&R

[tomp]

9. this was true one hundred years ago and is still true today....

....but the democratic party hasn't noticed.

[TBF]

11. Also inherently unequal - in order for one to profit he must step on others.

It's a ridiculous system and one we must evolve from if we want to save this planet.

[raouldukelives]

20. k&r

Same as it ever was.

[Starry Messenger]

21. k & r

[maryf]

25. K&R

[The Wizard]

27. Unfettered capitalism

will devour itself. The unmitigated greed is toxic to itself and all around it.

[socialist_n_TN]

35. Of course. The question is........

how do you "fetter" it? Capitalism takes every opportunity to unfetter itself and requires eternal vigilance or it will throw off any fetters.

That's actually what I meant by saying that it can't even save ITSELF. It's set up to run ideally as unregulated, but when it runs unregulated it destroys itself and everybody else in the wash. That's what happens when money is all that matters.

[TBF]

29. Evening kick. nt

[Steely_Dan]

41. It Was Posted Here...

...just the other day the compensation for Health Insurance CEO's. It ranged from around $9M to around $23M. I looked to my wife and said....Just how many yachts do you need to ski behind.

Just as Capitalists cannot understand why we do not see the "natural" desire for "things," we cannot begin to understand why they don't see the homeless or the hungry. And even if they do, it never seems to bother them.

-P