If you don't rate teachers by how well their students learn what they are teaching them, then how do

[RB TexLa]

you rate them? How well the students learned is not a good way to rate how well a teacher did their job?

[activa8tr]

1. Well, there are several ways, student learning measurements prominent among them but not

the only one.

Do you rate your Banker by the profits he makes for his bank?

Do you rate your salesman by the commissions he makes?

Do you rate your politician ONLY by how many ways he agrees with you?

Do you rate your neighbor by how he helps you out?

Do you rate fellow humans by how similar they look to you?



Obviously those are ways of rating, but not the only ones.

If you don't know what it is to be a teacher, try it for a few years, or a few days. Each day as a teacher teaches the good teacher more about being a good teacher.

[Synicus Maximus]

5. the first 4 yes the 5th no

[mzteris]

37. Why yes, yes I do...

Do you rate your Banker by the profits he makes for his bank? YES

Do you rate your salesman by the commissions he makes? Most DEFINITELY YES

Do you rate your politician ONLY by how many ways he agrees with you? Apparently, there are a whole damn lot of DU'ers who feel this way!

Do you rate your neighbor by how he helps you out? Well, yeah.

Do you rate fellow humans by how similar they look to you? That just makes no sense in this argument.

[The Straight Story]

2. Every student is different - but NCLB/OBE do not recognize that

I am good friends with a person who teaches teachers, and I am also working currently in the education field.

Not all kids are the same, and teachers need to be given the freedom to do their jobs in various ways depending on those they are teaching.

"One test to rule them all...."

[BeFree]

41. Cattle

The whole education system reminds me of industrial dead cow productions.

Each person is different, teachers and students. Today, they are all looked at as two-legged cows.

We need more specialization, more independent nurturing, more free range grazing and more of the parents actually taking responsibility for their little rug-rats.

&&&&&

When I was a kid, I rated my teachers on how much they left me alone... y'know, be free.

[Fire1]

61. Well stated. Students are not numbers on a spread sheet to

balance a banker's books! You're dealing with live human beings with all that that entails! All students are exceptional but not every one is going to meet said standards. THAT is just a FACT!! I'll be damned if teachers' should be held accountable for the differentiation.

[leftofcool]

3. Never ask a question like that on DU. You won't get a straight answer

[seabeyond]

28. of course you will. a willingness on the childs part TO learn is a HUGE factor on what a kid

learns from a teacher and may have absolutely nothing to do with a teachers worth.

straight enough for you?

[Barack2theFuture]

4. how well they learned what?

how well did you test what they "learned"?

WTF do you mean by "learn"?

[leftofcool]

7. Predictable. Another snide DU answer to an honest question

proposed by a poster who is just trying to understand the education problem.

[Barack2theFuture]

17. Predictable. Another dismissive DU response to a post

asking three legitimate questions.

[Xipe Totec]

6. Do public schools get to pick who they will teach?

Like private schools do?

It's easy to show that students are learning, if you get to choose which students get measured.

Do you want to see improved grades in public schools? Easy. Expel the students with the lowest marks.

[leftofcool]

9. Doesn't exactly answer the question does it?

[Xipe Totec]

10. Yes it does

Measure the teachers as suggested, but let the teachers pick their students.

That seems fair, doesn't it?

PS: What's your contribution to the discussion, besides the snark about straight answers?

Before you criticize, contribute some straight answers yourself.

[leftofcool]

12. But, the question was, "how should teachers be rated?"

As a retired teacher, I have my own ideas. But I think many people do not understand the problems and when they ask a question, they never get an honest answer.

[Xipe Totec]

15. Answer: as suggested in the OP

As a retired teacher, you should work on those reading skills.

[leftofcool]

20. No, it is not fair. Public school teachers should never

be allowed to "choose" students. Nor should they be rated on how well their students learn and nationally normed tests should have been thrown out the window long ago. If this administration wants kids to learn, it can start by creating an entirely free breakfast and lunch program for ALL kids in public schools. Next step, clean up the damn schools and get the kids proper equipment and supplies. Cut the classroom size down to about 15 kids per teacher. This would be a good start.

[Catshrink]

26. That's it in a nutsehll.

[Lance_Boyle]

35. class size is a red herring

Class sizes in the 50s, 60s, and 70s were 25+ kids per teacher per class, and students learned. The difference? Discipline - yes, including corporal punishment or the mere threat thereof. A teacher who refuses to maintain (or is barred from maintaining) discipline in a class of 20 will not fare any better in a class of 15.

[mzteris]

39. Good start?

How about a GREAT start!

AND increase teacher pay - a lot. Schools themselves should be smaller, too.

[kiva]

8. Maybe this will help you figure it out:

So tomorrow your boss tells you that you are getting a group of trainees, and that any raise, even your job itself, is dependent on how well they perform.

But...you don't get to decide who your will train, you take whomever is sent to you; it turns out that a third of them have massive personal problems that interfere with their ability to do the work, another fair chunk don't have the skill set necessary to learn what you are teaching them, and several have financial problems that force them to work another job, meaning that they don't get enough sleep and miss a few meals along the way.

You know that if your trainees' families could help, it would really benefit your trainees, but too many can't or won't; a minority of your trainees really don't want to be there, and will passively or actively limit the progress that your group as a whole makes.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that you are really missing the point of the discussion about testing.

[mzteris]

38. If you're hired as a trainer - it's your job to TRAIN.

It's your job how to figure out how to train those people, regardless of who you get.

I've been a trainer, I know the challenges. But in the end, if you're good, you CAN get the job done better than someone who isn't.

[kwassa]

51. and can you fire the trainee that refuses to be trained?

They don't let us fire the students that refuse the same thing.

[mzteris]

52. there should be alternative programs

for students who have difficulties. Sometimes "mainstreaming" does way more harm than good.

[kwassa]

59. there should be many things, like infinite money and infinite time.

but there isn't, of course, particularly now.

[Davis_X_Machina]

11. No one objects to

trying to 'rate teachers by how well their students learn what they are teaching them'.

The problem is no one knows how to measure it, no one can agree beyond literacy and numeracy what they should be taught, and no one has more than a vague idea what to do with the data, provided you can even get it.

Little things like that.

The testing regimen used in most cases is like expecting a massive build-out in the number of fire detectors to reduce the number of actual fires.

[leftofcool]

14. Excellent! Finally, an honest response.

[HockeyMom]

13. How do you measure PE, Art, Music, or Special Ed Teachers?

You cannot measure them by standardized test scores since the students don't even take tests in these, in particular the severely disabled kids.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. In class observation.

[Davis_X_Machina]

18. By whom? How often? For how long?

Using which observational techniques?

That's only the embryo of an answer.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. The principal, usually.

How often? And for how long?

However long is needed to get an accurate assessment of teaching ability.

"That's only the embryo of an answer."

It's a fine answer, I just don't think it's one you were expecting or will appreciate.

[Davis_X_Machina]

22. Principals average 10-15 minutes per staff member per year....

...in every building (7 high schools) I've worked in in 30 years. They have other things they do.

I do observation & supervision visits as part of new-teacher training and retention. I ride a class light as a result. So it takes 1/6th of a teacher's time to do it right with 2 people.

In a 70-person school, that's the equivalent of about 3-5 people doing nothing else.

[leftofcool]

23. What about a staff of retired teachers for observation?

I don't know if it would work, but it might be worth considering. A staff of 10 maybe for each elementary school in the district?

[Davis_X_Machina]

29. I would be glad to have them. I...

...don't teach a class as a result of my present gig, and I'd rather teach. You'd need to pay them, but they wouldn't need to be full-time. You would need a mix -- elementary & secondary, math-science, reading, etc. to do a good job. A fair amount of what secondary teachers do isn't obvious unless you have a passing familiarity with the discipline, and a lot of what early-elementary teachers do -- I wouldn't presume to supervise or observe at that level, except to learn -- is rooted in child-development stuff I know only from raising my own kids.

In Europe, with a common curriculum and highly centralized educational bureaucracies, school inspectors are a familiar part of life. We've got something similar, but only once in a decade, when the regional accrediting body comes to do a site visit.

[rucky]

32. That's a damn good idea.

In states that require the Praxis III, they already have a similar infrastructure in place for this.

[Gaedel]

36. Principals average 10-15 minutes per staff member per year....

That is the crux of the problem. The "principal" is no longer the "principal teacher" which is where the term comes from.

Maybe the "principal" should be the "principal teacher" responsible for supervising the other teachers to include observing and rating them.

All of the admin and facilities stuff should be handled by a "school administrator" who reports to a "chief administrator" in the office of the superintendant.

The principal reports to a superintendant of instruction in the ofice of the superintendant.

The instructional staff only worries about curriculum and instruction. The administrative staff takes care of everything else.

P.S. Educators need not apply for admin jobs. They have to sty in the classroom.

[Hannah Bell]

30. already done. forever. it has its own problems. besides, schools are cutting

those non-essential items.

[montanto]

47. Regarding in class observation.

This is my personal experience gained over 14 years in two very large (4000, 4500 student) Los Angeles high schools:

-Teacher evaluations are often low on the Principal (or in the case of these very large schools, several Assistant Principals) or A.P.'s list of things to do.

-Evaluations are often left until the last minute of the school year, after testing, during stop week (no teaching going on), when students and teachers are not in their fullest stride of teaching and learning. Last minute evaluations are rushed, incomplete, inconclusive, and frequently enough even falsified to cover the requirements.

-The teacher in room 100 may be evaluated by a strict, diligent, well prepared A.P., while the teacher in room 101 is evaluated by a lax, unconcerned, untrained A.P. with equal power to submit evaluations.

-Some teachers are observed for an hour a year over several days, while other teachers are not observed at all.

-I have personally received false evaluations based on many of the points above. The A.P. waited until the last minute, couldn't make the appointment, and wrote up a glowing observation for me to sign to cover his/her requirements. One year I wasn't evaluated at all, unless papers were submitted that I never saw. I know teachers who haven't had a physical visit to the classroom in six years but have received their evaluations nonetheless.

-While there are rules for Teachers in the classroom, and there are rules for evaluation, there is no oversight of the observations once completed. Once the forms go in to H.R. they are their own proof that a valid observation was made. No one checks to see that the Principal or A.P. actually did anything or that the findings are in any way valid or a reflection of what is going on in the classroom.

In class observation is a fine idea, but the practice is so loose and variable that it's hard for anyone to say what a good or bad evaluation actually means. Teachers have been asking for this reform for years, but it will cost money in a system that already can't provide for itself.

[rucky]

19. Here's a video that explains some of your question:

http://seattleducation2010.wordpress.com/2010/08/07/merit-pay-teacher-pay-and-value-added-measures/

Stolded from hannah bell.

As for what does measure learning, teachers are already measuring that in the classroom - they always have been. There has been studies on assessment for years, and which ones are the best way to measure learning. I'm partial to portfolio assessments as the best representation of student work & improvement, but different lessons & subjects require different forms of assessments - and the best ones don't necessarily fit into a multiple-choice format. They're finding project based work to be an effective teaching method - where the measure of learning is in the final product. Those are typically graded on a rubric.

As far as measuring teacher performance, I think the Principal is the best person to assess that - just like any manager in any job. And the role of the unions is to assure that due process is followed in disciplining teachers, because you may have suspected that teachers are often political targets - sometimes justified and sometimes unfairly - locally & now nationally too.

[last_texas_dem]

24. How do you plan to measure how well the students are learning

what they are being taught?

[msongs]

25. the best way to rate teachers is how cheap you can get to go to work - that's the way of the future

[Hannah Bell]

31. +100

[seabeyond]

27. have a teacher in upper income, professional households were education is a priority

have a teacher in low income areas where survival is the priority.

how do you think that effects learning abilities and do you really think that qualifies whether a teacher is "good" or not.

that is just one example i came up with without a lot of thought

[Sixathome]

33. Class system in school

The P.S is nothing more than a tool to keep the masses from discovering truths and to perpetuate false ideas. If teachers taught what was interesting and truthful kids would learn.Children recognize falsehoods just listen to the music they listen to. Remember your own childhood. If the Union was not infiltrated by those who despised it they would stop asking for too much and accepting too little. The mind is what is at stake not a JOB. Stop teaching the party line and engage students. This does not take money just devotion,from the parents on down to the shopkeeper who is looking for an employee. "Standards" are ridiculous because as with NCLB it makes teachers feel the need to teach for a test. If we want better education , poor communities especially ,need to rally together and pool resources to form their own "private school" and TAKE THE CHILDREN BACK!! Home school them and rotate teaching duties, even pay a teacher that you know is great. This crap of sitting back and bemoaning the situation is ridiculous. I am poor and educate at home. I want thinkers not dumbed down followers that are easily swayed by the likes of Limbaugh.
If one can read and if one can listen then we have a start.
P.S.teachers and the union need to rethink their motives. P.S.teachers should not allow their schools to be jails. The community has been long neglected and is reflected in the schools.
We also know that the class system is in effect here. One who is poor is neglected for the one who is not, both on the individual level and community level. By government and by P.S. teachers.

[seabeyond]

34. there is so much that is simply wrong in your post.

my kids have gone to private, to low income public and to high income public. son is now in a highly diverse, huge high school.

a constant in all that. education is available if the kid is willing to take the opportunity given him. most all teachers interest is to educate the student. ALL administrations i have dealt with in all these schools goal has been the interest of the child

i am going to suggest i am not so extremely blessed to live in the abnormal. that this must be a nation wide consistency.

i took the time and put in the effort to not only be involved with kids education but with their schools, too.

my kids are more diverse and educated and informed than a lot of adults. my son could easily argue your post. i have found from the youngest of ages the kids had teachers allow diverse and contradicting opinions and thoughts. one of the things i have been most impressed with in this area of red, the highest number of conservatives across the nation, is every school allowed my children to speak out and express their differing views, insisting all be respectful and listen and discuss. they have never had a teacher shut them up. the teachers have always welcomed differing view.

i have watched the attack on the teacher over the years, replacing the blame of the parent or the child. we have been conditioned to place all blame on the teacher, to the point of today giving absolutely no responsibility to community, learning environment or lack of, parental ability or child's willingness to learn

and if you think it is merely a matter of teacher being good enough to interest these students and they will learn, it shows your naivety or lack of understanding.

[Sixathome]

60. Lucky you

you had time and luck in your child's school. But you misunderstand, I did recognize the community responsibility as well as the parents! However, when that same community is for years served by the same school that has sliding scores and graduation rates it should be the teachers who protest! Not because they fear their jobs but because they are the canary in the coal-mine. The longer conditions are allowed to deteriorate the less likely it is to fix.They produce the poorly prepared parent for the next teacher.
People lacking education have a harder time as parents and employment.
If your problem was with the class system then read; Brophy and Good in "Teacher-Student Relationships"(Holt)or Reba Page,"The Lower Track Student's View of Curriculum" (American Education Research Assoc.). Drop out rates tell the truth, just because your son managed does not mean that the kids who dropped out just didn't want to learn.
Standardized tests are known to benefit the well off and the white. Our history is Euro centric and perpetuates a good guy face of our country.That's not truthful and kids know it.If you get the answer wrong because you answered truthfully for your reality then the test is skewed. "Are the police your friends?" Depends on where you live!!
If you think Limbaugh is tolerant or thoughtful ... well so sorry for you.
Would you not protest if they installed police and metal detectors and insisted that you be frisked by a member of the opposite sex at your work or the local grocery store?? Why would anyone think that this is a learning environment??
Teachers should be protesting louder on these issues and the parents could rally behind them. But in the end I think if you have a problem with your school TAKE THEM OUT! Groups like the Black Panthers began doing just that but were abruptly stopped.By our good guy government.

[MadHound]

40. No one objects to assessing teacher performance,

In fact it probably surprises many of the education bashers around here, but teachers are assessed on a regular basis throughout the school year.

What teachers object to is basing that assessment on some standardized test that the child is given. This is for a number of reasons, ranging from the fact that many students don't do well on taking standardized tests, to the fact that since a student generally has no stake in this test, it is easy for a number of them to blow it, or worse, deliberately sabotage it.

[mzteris]

42. See - NO ONE has suggested tying teacher assessment to

just "A STANDARDIZED TEST" score . . .

from the Blueprint on Education:

Our proposals will ask states and districts to put in place the conditions that allow for teachers, principals, and leaders at all levels of the school system to get meaningful information about their practice, and support them in using this information to ensure that all students are getting the effective teaching they deserve.


Effective Teachers and Leaders

Our proposal will continue and improve formula grants to states and school districts to improve the effectiveness of teachers and leaders, and ensure that students in high-need schools are being taught by effective teachers in schools led by effective principals. To help meet these goals, states and districts may choose how to spend funds to meet local needs, as long as they are improving teacher and principal effectiveness and ensuring the equitable distribution of effective teachers and principals. To measure, develop, and improve the effectiveness of their teachers, leaders, and preparation programs, states and districts will be required to put in place a few specific policies and systems, including:

* Statewide definitions of "effective teacher," "effective principal," "highly effective teacher," and "highly effective principal," developed in collaboration with teachers, principals, and other stakeholders, that are based in significant part on student growth and also include other measures, such as classroom observations of practice. As states transition to using these measures of effectiveness, we will maintain the provisions of current law relating to "Highly Qualified Teachers," but with additional flexibility.

* State-level data systems that link information on teacher and principal preparation programs to the job placement, student growth, and retention outcomes of their graduates.

* District-level evaluation systems that (i) meaningfully differentiate teachers and principals by effectiveness across at least three performance levels; (ii) are consistent with their state's definitions of "effective" and "highly effective" teacher and principal; (iii) provide meaningful feedback to teachers and principals to improve their practice and inform professional development; and (iv) are developed in collaboration with teachers, principals, and other education stakeholders.


snip

School districts may use funds to develop and implement fair and meaningful teacher and principal evaluation systems, working in collaboration with teachers, principals, and other stakeholders; to foster and provide collaboration and development opportunities in schools and build instructional teams of teachers, leaders, and other school staff, including paraprofessionals; to support educators in improving their instructional practice through effective, ongoing, job-embedded, professional development that is targeted to student and school needs; and to carry out other activities to improve the effectiveness of teachers, principals, and other school staff, and ensure the equitable distribution of effective teachers and principals. Funds spent on strategies such as professional development and class size reduction must be aligned with evidence of improvements in student learning.

snip

Measuring Success. We will require transparency around the key indicators of whether students and schools have effective teachers and principals and whether teachers have the professional supports they need. Both states and districts must publish report cards at least every two years that provide information on key indicators, such as teacher qualifications and teacher and principal designations of effectiveness; teachers and principals hired from high-performing pathways; teacher survey data on levels of support and working conditions in schools; the novice status of teachers and principals; teacher and principal attendance; and retention rates of teachers by performance level. States will also be required to report on the performance of teacher and principal preparation programs by their graduates' impact on student growth and other measures, job placement, and retention.


http://www2.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/blueprint/publication_pg5.html#part5

[MadHound]

44. Of course they have, where the fuck have you been?

Ever hear of Race to the Top. Here, let me quote you some choice passages:

"Compensating, promoting, and retaining teachers and principals, including by providing
opportunities for highly effective teachers and principals (both as defined in this notice) to obtain additional compensation and be given additional responsibilities;"


"Highly effective teacher means a teacher whose students achieve high rates (e.g., one and one-half
grade levels in an academic year) of student growth (as defined in this notice)."

"Student growth means the change in student achievement (as defined in this notice) for an individual
student between two or more points in time."

"Student achievement means—
(a) For tested grades and subjects: (1) a student’s score on the State’s assessments under the ESEA;"


There you have it, the basic outline of merit based pay and retention, based on standardized tests. Here is the document I got this information from
<http://www2.ed.gov/programs/racetothetop/executive-summary.pdf>

Here is a page full of information for you. I suggest you take advantage of it and educate yourself.
<http://www2.ed.gov/programs/racetothetop/index.html>

[mzteris]

45. Not to just "A" test score...

You sure seem to "pick and choose" passages - are you sure you've read and understand the entire document?


Effective teacher means a teacher whose students achieve acceptable rates (e.g., at least one grade level in an academic year) of student growth (as defined in this notice). States, LEAs, or schools must include multiple measures, provided that teacher effectiveness is evaluated, in significant part, by student growth (as defined in this notice). Supplemental measures may include, for example, multiple observation-based assessments of teacher performance.


Student achievement means—
(a) For tested grades and subjects:
.....(1) a student’s score on the State’s assessments under the ESEA; and, as appropriate,
.....(2) other measures of student learning, such as those described in paragraph (b) of this definition, provided they are rigorous and comparable across classrooms.

(b) For non-tested grades and subjects: alternative measures of student learning and performance such as student scores on pre-tests and end-of-course tests; student performance on English language proficiency assessments; and other measures of student achievement that are rigorous and comparable across classrooms.

Student growth means the change in student achievement (as defined in this notice) for an individual student between two or more points in time. A State may also include other measures that are rigorous and comparable across classrooms


NO WHERE do I see it being tied to a SINGLE TEST SCORE.


And did you even READ the Blueprint?

[MadHound]

46. They shouldn't be tied to a test score in any fashion,

Whether combined with other assessment methods or as a stand alone. The variables of a standardized test are far too great to match teacher performance, or school performance for that matter, with a standardized test score.

But here is Obama, doing just that. Yet you continue to be in denial, even when shown otherwise.

Oh, and don't forget, Obama's proposed ESEA changes will also, in part, tie teacher compensation to students' performance on standardized test scores.

More and more standardized tests, didn't we recognize this as a failed policy under Bush? Why is the Obama administration broadening their support for these tests, and why are you supporting that initiative. Standardized testing isn't in the best interests of teachers or students.

Congratulations, you are supporting a failed policy.

[mzteris]

49. I'm not in denial -

I'm not interpreting what I'm reading the way you're interpreting what you're reading. I think it's a preconceived bias on your part, but what do I know?

Seriously, I can't see why you aren't understanding what you're reading here. It doesn't seem that difficult to understand. :shrug:


btw - I am anti-standardized testing for kids, too, btw. I'm more of a "portfolio" kinda girl myself.

[madfloridian]

48. Yes, they are. What do you think the L.A. Times is doing?

They are going to publish names based on one test score.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/6598

[msanthrope]

55. One test score??? Try seven years of testing. Here's a link to the

actual study.....not your journal.

"Seeking to shed light on the problem, The Times obtained seven years of math and English test scores from the Los Angeles Unified School District and used the information to estimate the effectiveness of L.A. teachers — something the district could do but has not."

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-teachers-value-20100815,0,2695044.story?page=1

[Joe Fields]

62. Yeah, that what I thought. There are those here who use their own propaganda.

Thanks for shedding more light on this subject.

[WinkyDink]

43. First of all, not all subjects are covered here: art; "home ec"; phys ed; etc. YET those teachers

get paid the SAME as others while NOT being "rated by how well their students learn." (The faculty also includes Guidance Counselors; I know, as I was both teacher and G.C.)

So IF you can come up with some equitable, all-inclusive staff-ratings system, I'd like to hear it.
But as long as it's only English, Social Studies, mathematics, and science teachers, I'm in opposition.

[mzteris]

53. the plan calls for ALL teachers to be evaluated -

and using methods OTHER THAN "standardized tests"... the website is down for maintenance right now for the Blueprint for Education, but it's in there.


edit to add: see post #42 - I have the info posted in there. And a link for when it's up.

[mrmpa]

50. What if you teach a subject that there's no standardized test for?

Such as a foreign language, history, and geography

[LWolf]

54. You don't "rate" them.

You evaluate them on the characteristics of high quality teaching. What THEY do.

You do not use what others (students) do to evaluate teachers. Use what students do to evaluate STUDENTS.

If this simple, common sense concept isn't enough for you, then please be aware:

The biggest predictor of standardized test scores is nothing that schools or teachers do. It's parent SES. Using scores that are affected by factors outside of teachers' control to "rate" students is invalid and unethical.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LWolf]

64. I'm sorry you can't defend your position without attacking the messenger.

It's a demonstration of weakness.

For the record, I AM held accountable for my job performance, and always have been. Student test scores have nothing to do with that. Not coincidentally, my students have generally done relatively well on standardized tests. The vast majority of parents have been satisfied with their students' experiences in my classroom. My evaluations, though, have rated me against what I do, not what students do. As it should be. I do not control what other human beings do, and I don't want to. I give my students opportunities; as many and varied as I can within the constraints I work within. I encourage them to use those opportunities well, and help them to do so to the best of my ability and to the extent that they will allow me to. THEY, though, are responsible in the end for what they choose to do with those opportunities.

I've "gotten away" with superb evaluations, successful students, and happy parents. And I've done it for decades. Nobody is "shining a light" on me. The light in my classroom has been blazing all along.

So much for the personal attacks.

How should teachers be evaluated? They should be evaluated on how what they do, of course. That evaluation includes things like organization, lesson planning and implementation, record keeping, personal interactions with students, staff, and parents, and timely completion of all duties including the myriad that happen outside the instructional day. Only one of those are reflected in student test scores.

And while teachers DO influence student test scores, they are not the only, nor the biggest, influence. There is no practical or effective way to filter out all those other influences, which is what it would take to make student test scores a valid measure of what a teacher, instead of a student, did. There's no benefit to public education, or to students, to use an invalid measure to evaluate teachers. That doesn't help anything. When an invalid measure is used as a political weapon, it DOES harm.

[flvegan]

56. Glad to see this show is back in town again tonight.

Never disappoints.

[Bluebear]

57. I have no reason why it's being held over, nt

[flvegan]

58. This show...

DOESN'T TEACH WITH YOU!!!1!

[LostinVA]

65. ...

:rofl: