What /who are the Taliban and why are we killing them?

[Toots]

If I recall when we first went into Afghanistan it was to get Bin Laden and we were mad at the Taliban because we said they were protecting him or at least not turning him over to us. Bush* has said Bin Laden is no longer relevent so why are we killing Taliban? Isn't the Taliban a religious sect? Have we begun a religious war? What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? I never hear about Al Qaeda being hunted or killed there only Taliban....Taliban is just Afghanistani people that are very fundamentalist..What did they ever do to America?

[ThomWV]

1. They Are The Ones Who Destroyed The Buddhas of Bamiyan

Dispicable.

Here is some heavy reading for anyone who cares:

http://www.tamu.edu/anthropology/Buddhas.html

[Toots]

2. And the Americans destroying mosques in Iraq????

While that is indeed dispicable is it a reason to go to war with them? What have they ever done to America?

[ThomWV]

3. They Got In Our Way

Stopped Phillips from running a natural gas pipeline through their country.

Its no great secrete.

Oh, and if you will recall they offered Ossama up to us before we invaded them. All they asked was proof he was responsible for the attack on our country on September 11th, 2001. We refused to provide such proof but invaded none the less. So it clearly was not about Ossama, or the events of the day mentioned. That leaves the pipeline, unless someone else knows of another reason.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

5. Dude, spell checker. Seriously.

[The2ndWheel]

4. Why?

Because we don't invest as much money as we do into the military for the bombs and bullets to just sit on the shelf?

There is a reason you can't name a decade where we haven't done something somewhere militarily.

[havocmom]

6. They are 'the other' and we are killing them so fundies here don't notice bushco killed America

Takes killing a fundy 'other' to distract a fundy local from seeing just how screwn they are.

[INDIA]

Sure, that's it...nt

[NNN0LHI]

7. Taliban are gone according to the Pentagon in 2001. Just killing Afghan people now

http://www.iht.com/articles/2001/10/17/attack_ed3__8.php

Taliban Is 'Eviscerated,' Pentagon Declares : Deadly Gunship Joins U.S. Air Attack Force


Wednesday, October 17, 2001

The U.S. military introduced one of its deadliest aircraft amid fierce aerial raids Tuesday on Afghanistan, and the White House expressed new determination to force the Taliban rulers to hand over militants of the Qaida network headed by Osama bin Laden.

For the first time since U.S.-led forces launched an assault on the Taliban and suspected terrorist targets Oct. 7, a U.S. Air Force AC-130 gunship joined the campaign, using high-power cannon and heavy machine guns to attack a Taliban stronghold near Kandahar, military officials said.

"The combat power of the Taliban has been eviscerated," said Lieutenant General Gregory Newbold of the Marine Corps, in one of the strongest Pentagon assessments of the effectiveness of 10 days of air strikes.

[INDIA]

8. Seems pretty simple to me...

We went in because the Taliban was basically allowing the use of their country for Al Qaeda bases/training camps etc. They refused to turn over Bin Laden. Their government sucked in the worst way possible. Pure fucking religious fundamentalist assholes.

We invaded, took over, and installed Karzai. Good move. Now women can go to school, and dancing is allowed, Kevin Bacon is happy.

Right now there is no real strategic goal/interest in attacking the Taliban. They are still (somewhat unclearly) allied with Al Qaeda members hiding in the tribal areas of the east, so that's one reason. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, they are trying to overthrow the government, they are still attacking/killing Afghanis and Peacekeeping troops. They are shooting at us, why shouldn't we shoot back?

I have a better question for you. Why should we NOT kill them? Seems like a pretty good plan to me.

[sinkingfeeling]

9. So if some country like China, invaded and occupied the USA, you'd just sit back and

applaud while they installed their puppet government and outlawed your religious beliefs?

[INDIA]

10. If you're trying to equate the present government...

of the USA with the Taliban government, then we can't even have this discussion. We don't function on the same plane of reality.

[sinkingfeeling]

21. No. That wasn't the question at all.

[Balbus]

15. LOL!

That was a pathetic reach.. You can do better than that.

[Toots]

11. They are shooting at occupiers of THEIR country

They are not shooting at Americans anywhere else on earth. Why are we there in Afghanistan when Bin Laden is no longer relevent and according to Bush* the Afghanistan war is over and won...Should America be occupying their land? I guess our pipeline needs protection.. huh?

[INDIA]

12. Let me try to type this slow and not use big words.

Afghanistan was terrorist Disney World before the invasion. It was also home to one of the most cruel, and fundamentalist Islamic governments in the world. We were attacked on 9-11 by people who used the country, and the protection of the Taliban, to train and operate a global terror network. They got what they deserved. The world, and Afghanistan is a better place without the Taliban. No progressive can possibly argue otherwise.

The majority of Afghanis would agree with me. Although they are no fan of non-muslims in their country, the Taliban was not exactly popular either, especially with women.

Right now, there is a Western style democracy in place, and an INTERNATIONAL coalition (not just evil Amerikkans) supporting the government. The Taliban is continuing to kill innocent Afghanis and attack peacekeeping troops. So accordingly, we kill them, and rightfully so.

It isn't the goal of the international force to wipe out the remnants of the Taliban. In fact, most members/supporters of the overthrown regime, have assimilated back into non-violent, regular lives. Nobody is targeting them. We are targeting the assholes roaming the tribal areas and killing teachers for teaching girls how to read. We are targeting the assholes who still stone to death adulterers and kill muslims who convert to other religions. We are targeting the assholes blowing themselves up in marketplaces. We are targeting the assholes killing international peacekeeping troops.

And as for your "pipeline" argument. I've heard little about it, I believe it is of little importance. Look at where the international forces are located. They aren't gathered in a protective 180 around some obscure pipeline. That's a strawman argument. I'm sure if by some coincidence Afghanistan had oil fields, you would argue we are only there for oil. Whatever is convenient for your argument I guess.

And on edit: Afghanistan does not belong to the Taliban. It is not "THEIR" country as you put it. The Taliban, like many regimes before it, had it's day, and then was overthrown. Afghanistan belongs to the Afghanis, who at present, seem rather glad to be rid of those assholes.

[Marrah_G]

13. The Taliban are monsters

Do some research. Not fighting them and giving them back control would seal the fate of Afghani women. It would condemn them to a life of virtual slavery and oppression you cannot imagine.

Below is taken from Rawa.org

Taliban restrictions and mistreatment of women include the:

1- Complete ban on women's work outside the home, which also applies to female teachers, engineers and most professionals. Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul.

2- Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband).

3- Ban on women dealing with male shopkeepers.

4- Ban on women being treated by male doctors.

5- Ban on women studying at schools, universities or any other educational institution. (Taliban have converted girls' schools into religious seminaries.)

6- Requirement that women wear a long veil (Burqa), which covers them from head to toe.

7- Whipping, beating and verbal abuse of women not clothed in accordance with Taliban rules, or of women unaccompanied by a mahram.

8- Whipping of women in public for having non-covered ankles.

9- Public stoning of women accused of having sex outside marriage. (A number of lovers are stoned to death under this rule).

10- Ban on the use of cosmetics. (Many women with painted nails have had fingers cut off).

11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males.

12- Ban on women laughing loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice).

13- Ban on women wearing high heel shoes, which would produce sound while walking. (A man must not hear a woman's footsteps.)

14- Ban on women riding in a taxi without a mahram.

15- Ban on women's presence in radio, television or public gatherings of any kind.

16- Ban on women playing sports or entering a sport center or club.

17- Ban on women riding bicycles or motorcycles, even with their mahrams.

18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors."

19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose.

20- Ban on women washing clothes next to rivers or in a public place.

21- Modification of all place names including the word "women." For example, "women's garden" has been renamed "spring garden".

22- Ban on women appearing on the balconies of their apartments or houses.

23- Compulsory painting of all windows, so women can not be seen from outside their homes.

24- Ban on male tailors taking women's measurements or sewing women's clothes.

25- Ban on female public baths.

26- Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus. Public buses have now been designated "males only" (or "females only").

27- Ban on flared (wide) pant-legs, even under a burqa.

28- Ban on the photographing or filming of women.

29- Ban on women's pictures printed in newspapers and books, or hung on the walls of houses and shops.

Apart from the above restrictions on women, the Taliban has:

- Banned listening to music, not only for women but men as well.

- Banned the watching of movies, television and videos, for everyone.

- Banned celebrating the traditional new year (Nowroz) on March 21. The Taliban has proclaimed the holiday un-Islamic.

- Disavowed Labor Day (May 1st), because it is deemed a "communist" holiday.

- Ordered that all people with non-Islamic names change them to Islamic ones.

- Forced haircuts upon Afghan youth.

- Ordered that men wear Islamic clothes and a cap.

- Ordered that men not shave or trim their beards, which should grow long enough to protrude from a fist clasped at the point of the chin.

- Ordered that all people attend prayers in mosques five times daily.

- Banned the keeping of pigeons and playing with the birds, describing it as un-Islamic. The violators will be imprisoned and the birds shall be killed. The kite flying has also been stopped.

- Ordered all onlookers, while encouraging the sportsmen, to chant Allah-o-Akbar (God is great) and refrain from clapping.

- Ban on certain games including kite flying which is "un-Islamic" according to Taliban.

- Anyone who carries objectionable literature will be executed.

- Anyone who converts from Islam to any other religion will be executed.

- All boy students must wear turbans. They say "No turban, no education".

- Non-Muslim minorities must distinct badge or stitch a yellow cloth onto their dress to be differentiated from the majority Muslim population. Just like what did Nazis with Jews.

- Banned the use of the internet by both ordinary Afghans and foreigners.

And so on...

And there books and movies out there written by Afghani women.
I suggest :

Book- A bed of red flowers
Movies- Osama (not "that" osama) and Kandahar

[INDIA]

14. But...But...It's THEIR country! /sarc nt

[Bandit]

16. Let me guess, you belong to DLC

Or some other very Pro-war group. Do you have solid evidence Bin Laden or any "Al Qaeda" group was involved in 9-11? Oh that's right there was a pristeen passport found on the city streets of New York that belonged to Atta so the evidence is solid. I suppose the Insurgents (Iraqi women and children) in Iraq don't have a country either. Afghanistan is indeed "their" country. Whether you like them or not they are Afghanistani people and it is their country. As far as it being a NATO force there and not American do you honestly believe without America there would be any foreign troops in Afghanistan? Maybe you'll get lucky and America will attack Iran and a lot more people without a country can be killed and tortured. I don't think I have ever read anyone more pro-war on these boards...

[INDIA]

17. And if by "pro-war" you mean I support

the toppling of the Taliban, then yes. I am against any armed conflict with Iran, although I think we should put heavy political and economic pressure on them, along with the Russians and Chinese, toward dissuading them from getting nuclear weapons.

I am against the war in Iraq. There were no WMD's. That's good enough for me to be against this brainless, costly war.

And please don't start flying the conspiracy bullcrap with me. "Do you have solid evidence Bin Laden or any "Al Qaeda" group was involved in 9-11?" I can't argue with someone who doesn't argue on my same plane of reality. The entire educated world knows what you seem to have trouble accepting. If you can't, then there is no point in having a discussion with you. I just won't be able to win with you.

But nice try with the " you'll get lucky and America will attack Iran and " comment. It's completely false, and a borderline smear/lie. Please feel free to peruse my 1000+ posts and quote me advocating a war with Iran. I won't hold my breath.

[wuushew]

18. By your criteria what other nations qualify for military intervention?

Africa is rife with many humanitarian problems. In the grand order of things I don't see how Afghanistan took the top spot as the gold standard for targeted destruction.

[INDIA]

19. Al Qaeda training camps/Bin Laden was in country.

We were attacked by people being protected by the Taliban. That is just infinitely clear and simple to me. It isn't to you? We didn't go in for solely humanitarian reasons, I don't know where you got that idea.

(And for the record, I think in extreme humanitarian cases, like Rwanda, we should intervene. I think Clinton made a huge blunder in not doing so. I think Bush is making a huge blunder by not intervening in Sudan. And I'm not advocating boots on the ground invasion. Clinton proved in Bosnia that US Airpower is more than enough to stop genocide and bring a third world country to the negotiating table.)

[wuushew]

20. Al Queda is composed of mainly Arab Sunnies

Numerically they were never more than a tiny percentage of the overall population of Afghanistan. Why not simply use covert action forces to eliminate these training camps?


The United States has at least nominal relations with most countries these "bad guys" originate from. It could be argued that what is really sought is better access and control of those you emigrate abroad from Middle Eastern countries. Why is full scale war and occupation needed? The cost of doing so can clearly be measured in human, monetary and material metrics.

[INDIA]

24. So I have you on record supporting search and destroy Black Ops...

inside countries that we are not at war with?

I'm kinda suprised. I definitely see your point, but in the case of the Taliban, they were so bad, and so weak anyway, we might as well have just toppled the whole damn government. I certainly don't condone this tactic in all situations (Iraq Iraq Iraq), but in Afghanistan it worked, and the world is a better place because of it.

[Marrah_G]

23. Once again this is about the Taliban not all Afghanis

The AMAERICAN government trained and armed the Taliban to kick out Russia. These people that AMERICA put in power then completely oppressed the country. They took the very humanity away from women. Do some reading and find out how horrible it really was/is.

Then you come back here and say that we should just give the Taliban back control and NOT try and help them fight these thugs.

I cannot fathom how ANYONE on a liberal progressive board coud take the side of these horrible men.

Really, please go read about them. There is a large quantities of information out there.

[treestar]

26. But none of that is why we invaded

And there are many other countries just as worthy of invasion on that score.

The reason given was Al Qaeda being allowed refuge there.

Now that Al Qaeda is, according to *, defeated, why are we still there?

[npincus]

40. great post

[onenote]

22. I find it rather amazing that some DUers who rail against the power of the fundamentalist

minority in the US (as represented by Falwell, Robertson, et al), seem to have no problem with a fundamentalist minority that subjugated the majority in Afghanistan -- and was far more successful at it than the US fundies.

[treestar]

28. It's not really our problem

The fundies here are our problem, the fundies in Afghanistan are the Afghanis problem.

And on that score, we should invade Saudi Arabia, too, they are just as bad, if not worse, and produced the very terrorists who actually carried out 911 (most of them).

The whole trouble with the GWOT always has been that there's no country to declare war on, and declaring war on a method or concept just doesn't apply in reality.

[Marrah_G]

31. The Nato troops are already there.

Rather then help the Afghanis fight the Taliban you would have Nato leave them to be slaughtered by these bastards?

[Marrah_G]

29. I don't get it either

I think most are just very confused about who the Taliban are. They seem to think they are just Mulsim conservatives. The truth is these guys make Iran look like an Oasis of Liberalism.

Imagine you are a young woman in your twenties. Your father is dead, your brother is dead, killed in the war with Russia. You are educated but now with the Taliban in power you cannot teach or work. You cannot go out of your home to find food, you must rely on the kindness of nieghbors to eat. Your sister is ill, but you cannot take her to a doctor and a doctor is not allowed to come to her. You do your best to care for her as she dies. After she dies you cannot go to bury her, you rely on neighbors, giving them the last trinkets of value in payment. You sit and wait.

It's not much better for the girl next door, except she can go outside when accompanied by her husband, who purchased her from her father when she was 12. She must have every speck of herself covered, she may not speak, her very footsteps must be silent. Even at the market she may ask her husband to purchase something but she may communicate with the shop keeper himself.


It goes on and on. Just take a look all over the internet. There are movies and books out there.

If Nato troops pull out of Afghanistan then you have condemned these women to life a ghosts. There only to serve the needs of thier husbands and children. Even the windows are painted, lest someone see that there is a human being living there.

Afghanistan was NOT like this until our government armed and trained these aweful men to fight against Russia. Once they were victorious over the Russians they turned their guns on the people of Afghanistan and imposed their own twisted views on a population already weary from MANY years of war.

[pinniped]

25. Where are all these Northern Alliance allies we allegedly had when POS*....

first ordered the bombing of their country?

Did they mysteriously turn into Taliban or what?

[NNN0LHI]

27. The Northern Alliance' specialty was rape and producing heroin

My guess is that they have been very busy since Bush put them in charge.

Don

[merh]

30. They are the extreme Islamic leaders that governed Afghanistan

strictly in accordance with their extreme beliefs. They were guilty of many human rights violations and were living under UN sanctions when Bozobush&co took office. In February 2001, the Taliban offered the US Bin Laden if we would consider helping them get out from under the sanctions that were choking their nation. (See my sig line for the link) - Apparently bozobush&co ignored the offer, thus we are fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan (but we got that natural gas pipeline going) and we are fighting the "terrarists in Iraq" because Bin Laden attacked us on 9/11, something he couldn't have done if we hadn't ignored/rejected the Taliban's offer.

Just imagine what things would be like if the US actually acknowledged the Taliban and negotiated with them in February and March of 2001.

:(

[Bronyraurus]

32. They violated international law

by allowing Al Qaeda to launch attacks on other countries from their soil. It is one of the justifications for making war according to the UN charter.

Not only that, but they actually protected Al Qaeda when the US demanded that they give up Bin Laden.

Oh, and they were also some of the cruelest tyrants on earth, executing women, gays, and heretics at the drop of the hat.

A better question is: why are you defending them?

[merh]

41. They offered the US Bin Laden and the bush admin rejected the offer

7 months later the WTC was destroyed and the pentagon attacked.

Oh, by the way, the USofA has violated the UN Charter by attacking, invading and now occupying Iraq. Not to mention, our government tortures folks, holds political prisoners indefinitely without charges or due process.

But hey, it's cool, as a female, I get to wear slacks and my hair blows free in the air and I can post here, right.

[leeroysphitz]

33. They are very BAD men who...

1. Force women, most of whom were raised by tradition to wear bourqas and want to wear bourqas, to wear bourqas.

2. Force men, most of whom were raised by tradition to wear a beard and want to wear beards, to wear beards

3. Force the Afghani people, Muslims, most of whom were raised by tradition to live under Islamic law and want to live under Islamic law, to live under Islamic law.

4. Oh and I think they were holding up a big pipeline deal that big western oil companies wanted to run through Afghanistan but that probably doesn't have anything to do with it.


Note: I'm aware that not all Afghani women were happy to be second class citizens (or worse) and I hope that their situation has improved even if that isn't the REAL reason U.S. forces are fighting and dying in Afghanistan.

[Marrah_G]

34. You are very wrong to think that most Afghani's like Taliban rule.

They were oppressed by force. Take a look back at a previous post to see the laws the Taliban imposed.

Better yet, read a book called a Bed of Red Flowers. It will give you a much clearer view of Afghani life before and during the Taliban took over.

[wuushew]

35. So what, is our raison d'etre to eliminate "badness" from the world?

look at the opportunity costs. If we slashed all non-defensive military spending those same resources could be used fight AIDS, malaria or hunger. Why does tyranny rank higher than hunger? The money saved could also be used to improve security at home.

I believe war to be counter productive, if not then it is at least inefficient at the goal of alleviating human suffering.

[INDIA]

36. When that "badness" attacks us in a major way, yes...

we should rid the world of it. Duh.

[INDIA]

37. Wow, you are just dead ass wrong in every single way. Amazing. n/t

[Toots]

38. You sure think a lot of yourself don't you?

You have told numerous people here they are dead wrong when it is apparent to me you have the same mentality as Bush*. Kill, Kill, Kill, You seem quite happy people are being killed and you use as your reasoning the exact same talking points as Bush* uses. Are you really Bush* in hiding?

[INDIA]

39. YES! IT'S ME, BUSH!!!

hahahahahahahhahahahahhahahah!

Nice to see you again toots, I thought you had bailed on your own thread.

And my "Kill Kill Kill" mentality only extends as far as scum like the Taliban. You started this thread with a poor understanding of who the Taliban are, what they have done, and what they are doing.

Maybe you've become a little more enlightened? You haven't specifically responded to any of my above posts, which directly answered your questions of why we are there and why we are still engaging the Taliban. I've offered perfectly correct, and sensible answers to your questions, and you've ignored it all, instead claiming I am * undercover, lol.

Have a nice day toots.


And on edit: I believe the purpose of the asterisk is so that one can discuss Bush without using his name. Writing his name with an asterisk at the end of it seems to defeat the purpose. I could be wrong though.

[Bandit]

42. You could be wrong...no say it ain't so

I don't know why toots uses the asterisk after Bush* but the reason I do is because Supreme Court Justice Breyer (I believe) when writing his opinion on the Bush* vs Gore ruling said that Bush* would always be followed by an asterisk because of how wrong the ruling was in his opinion. My opinion is identical to his..and thus the asterisk after his name and not in place of his name..

[INDIA]

44. I stand corrected. I was wrong.

I'm big enough to admit it instead of dissapearing from the thread. Although I usually see the * in place of the entire name when DU'ers use it.

[magellan]

43. You are wrong

The asterisk(s) after Bush**'s name indicate his election isn't held as legitimate by the poster. I use two as I believe he stole both 2000 and '04.

You're also somewhat wrong about the Taliban. They aren't a monolith organization where everyone within its ranks believes and does the same thing any more than the religious right in this country is. There are Taliban tribal leaders in southern Afghanistan who oppose the militant Taliban extremists. That doesn't mean I condone their shared beliefs, particularly as they pertain to the treatment of women, but they are not the black & white terrorist organization you make them out to be.

[cemaphonic]

45. Another distinction with the Taliban

Is that they held no international legitimacy as the government of Afghanistan, only recognized by Saudi, UAE and Sudan, IIRC. Considering the dozens of nasty regimes that have no trouble achieving diplomatic recognition once in control, that should tell you something about how sorry the rest of the world is to see them ousted. And most of Afghanistan is glad they are out of power, but it is a very culturally and politically decentralized country, so it is relatively easy for a group like the Taliban to go underground for awhile and build up a new power base in the remote tribal areas far from Kabul.

As for what they did to America... Harbored and aided an international criminal gang that pulled off a destructive and high-profile attack on us. One of the more reasonable casus belli we have had for the wars that our nation has been involved in.