On Falwell and hate and news

[nadinbrzezinski]

As I said yesterday yes, his death was a news item... now the current circus, my teevee has remained off... no thank you

But let me address something else here...

Yes folks are free to feel whatever joy, hate, what have you on the man... but you expressing this says more about you, than the man

Now I will not defend the Reverend Jerry Falwell.

Perhaps he wasn't loved enough as a kid

Or he had a love of a cult of personality, as long as he was the leader

Or he truly believed in his message

It is now between himself and that god he believed in. If there is a Christian God... again it is between him and that god

But what we can all argue and mostly agree on is that Jerry Falwell was a hate filled man, telling us a hate filled message.

In many ways when he (and many line him) say that Liberals are hate filled, they are talking of themselves.

Yes, we all can discuss the message, and his effects on the culture (which were and are still corrosive) but your feelings... well folks... there are some who will use YOUR feelings as ammo to show how hate filled Liberals are. Granted, it is reflection... but for god sakes, why give them the ammo?

And by the way... we will go through this same dog and pony show when some of the other leaders of the so called moral major ty kick the can... and they are getting up in years... So think about it... the message, absolutely it is hate filled... but the person... no he did not enter just because he died. Historians will have a lot of less than positive things to say about his message and his effect on US Society (assuming we win the culture war), Otherwise, he is a hero... and them are the apples...

And if we have a civil war (hot one), I will blame his message as one of the causes for it


But notice, I said the message, his writings, his public persona, but not the man himself. Oh and there is more... hate... it is too strong of a word.

Think about it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. kick

[DFW]

2. You're right, of course, but

All one has to do is see an image of his fat, bloated face
in his silk suit, pouring out his bile at people for merely
being as they are, or for maladies that were brought upon them
by others (such as AIDS victims infected by transfusion), and
it is difficult to separate the man from his message.

In the end, that which is cause for celebration is the cessation
of his message, and not the demise of a fellow human, I agree.
Nonetheless, those who felt the direct thrust of his awful
message have, to my mind, every right to feel otherwise, and I
would be the last to condemn them for feeling that way or saying so.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Feel whatever you want

but ahem.. "dancing on his grave" tells us far more about the person than Jerry Falwell

Just as jerry's dancing on the graves of the victims of 9.11 told us far more about the so called moral majority.

And just as Falwell should (and to a point was) called on it, so should people dancing on his grave

Believe you me, hate is corrosive

[Neoma]

3. I don't hate him.

I am in complete joy that he's dead. I cannot say that I felt the same way for him while he was alive, but heck, that's just how it works. Be glad that the world sorta believes in the good of mankind so faithfully as to morally reject a persons harmful beliefs to a point of love that those beliefs will not be recalled again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. The world will reject you too

want me to explain you this thing called cell maturation and lack of divisions after a certain finite number of divisions?

Death comes to all of us

He wasn't rejected, he died. We all die. We all are dying a day at a time since the moment we were born.

Now reject the message, hat is quite a different story

But this poppy cock that the world rejected him as if the planet has the capacity to reject is just poppycock... Oh and he has quite a few followers that will try to spread the message, so the message is not gone, just the messenger

[Neoma]

8. I never said that he was rejected because he died.

Quite the opposite. Reread my statement.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Well his believes and philosophy ain't dead yet

DO NOT take your eye away from that

[Neoma]

10. They are only an echo of the man now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Nope, Fallwell's power had gone down quite a bit

over the last few yaers.

There are others in the movement that have quite a bit more power and ahve had it for a while

[Neoma]

12. His followers may have gotten all of their ideas from the man.

But their messages are their own in the end, that is what they believe and the hate is their message.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Yes but they will be with us forever

and that is the point, and Falwell is just the tip of the iceberg

research Dominionist movement, it will make your blood go cold

[Neoma]

14. They are not him, you must be confused.

Ding dong, the witch is dead.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. The dominionist movement is dead?

ok

[Neoma]

17. I see that it is worthless to debate with a person who cannot listen.

Good day sir.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. All I am saying is that the movement is far from dead

and it has its paws all over the place

Falwell was part of it... he is dead, but the movement is far from dead

Go head, dance on graves, or whatever you want... while you do that, they are working in the shadows

Oh and I was not debating, it is called a conversation

[Neoma]

20. A debate is a conversation that has disagreements in it.

I am not ignorant over other extreme Christian conservatives, far from it. It's like relief from having a particular annoying guy yelling in your ear for years anyways.
:toast:

[bobcra]

4. falwell

Well, I respect the right of people to believe what they want as long as it doesn't impede my ability to live as I wish within a free society. Falwell constantly tried to interfere with that basic right. I didn't want him dead; I just wanted him to stfu and now he has. I'm happy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. First welcome to DU

now do you think his followers will just stuff it and be quiet?

they have failed, spectacularly so

Every group Jerry Falwell blamed for the ills of society is generally speaking, free to walk the streets

Yes we do have crimes against Gays, but twenty years ago they were not hate crimes... and many police departments, ranging from large urban departments to small rural refused to even deal with them. These days you still have areas of the country, mostly rural and mostly south, though I could take you to some areas in Cali where this applies, where it is still unsafe to be gay, or for that matter black. But that is receding.

There states and more to come will actually recognize the ability of Gays to commit

But if you believe that he's taking his message to the grave, I have a bridge to sell you.

the MESSAGE is alive and well... and kicking.

Don't take your eyes off that ball!

And that should be YOUR message

[Maven]

16. This is completely misguided.

The man cannot and should not be separated from his message. And no truth-teller need censor himself out of some misplaced sense of propriety or shame. Because that is EXACTLY what those who profited from Falwell's treachery while he was alive will count on in order to rewrite history after he's dead. Falwell's a "hero," and them's the apples, eh? Not on my watch. Not on the watch of anyone who cares to tell the truth to undo the damage caused by this hateful person. I wouldn't silence myself while he was alive, and I won't silence myself now that he's dead. Nor will I allow anyone to convince me that his ideas and his personage should be uncoupled. If there is anything decent that may come of this despicable man's death, it is that people can get a full and honest look at his life and his deeds, and move on from them.

Furthermore, merely telling the truth about what this person was--a horrible bigot--is not "dancing on his grave." Everyone needs to grow up a little and stop with the false piety. Because that, as I've already stated, is what his followers will count on to continue the damage he started--to continue inflicting suffering on others in order to vindicate their own "suffering." That can't be allowed to happen.

As for the line about Falwell's crimes being between him and his God, well, I'm an atheist. So sell that one someplace else. I also think it's absolutely healthy for people to express their feelings, regardless of how some right-wing jerkoff will twist them to his advantage. Because said jerkoff will continue twisting and turning to further his agenda while we wring our hands about "restraint." That, again, is exactly what they're counting on.

And P.S., when Pat Robertson dies I won't mourn for him, either. Nor will I have any qualms about stating the simple truth that Falwell was a force of evil in our country and the world, and we are all better off without him.

That's my right.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. There is a difference between speaking of the hate filled

massage and going, ding dong the witch is dead

if you cannot see the difference, I can't help you

And as to it is between him and his god, that is for those who believe in that. You don't, well he is worm food now... I'm personally an agnostic, closer to the way the Founding Fathers believed in the creator, that is a force that was there at the moment of creation. If you know anytyhing about cosmology, you will see why I said at the moment of creation. But one that intervenes in human history... nope, one that will judge us for our "sins" you kidding me? If that god was real... he would not have time to listen to every petty complaint, let alone the major ones.

He\she\it, if it even exists, is at the back of the theater popping popcorn enjoying the show... hey look, they are about to make the same mistake... whoops, ah the are about to step into the same damn hole... this is funny! Or the Gods at Olympus just having fun watching us mere mortals make the same mistake over and over and over and over and over again.

That is assuming there is even a god

But in this country, you will have way too many people tell you, well it is now between him and his god... or devil.

[Neoma]

22. Well you are correct, there is a difference.

I do not believe in hate so much as being given the right to ignore a persons speech by its harmful effects. I acknowledge his hate filled life and I choose to guide my mind away from that hate. To receive the message that he died is uplifting and any untamed anger toward him is let out through joy, not by hatred or sadness, but pure fluffy happiness. So be it if you disagree with this feeling, but there's a real peaceful sensation about it and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. And there we part company

Hate is corrosive, (as his life proved)

You may imbide in that fountain, I will not

Have a good day

[Neoma]

24. You are mistaken, for I am in joy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Whatever makes you happy

I guess.

Sorry, if I cannot condone that... nor will I condone that

[Neoma]

28. I never asked you to condone it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Yet you keep justifying it

have a good day

[Neoma]

30. No.

I believed there was a misunderstanding.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. My apologies then

[Neoma]

21. Hear, hear!

[terrya]

25. I've been re-reading his hate...someone should drive a stake through his heart.

Just to make sure he's dead.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. His dead buit the mesage

is not.

[Obamarama]

31. I've had it about up to HERE with these soft-on-Falwell threads...

What the FUCK is wrong with you people?? I've kept my opinion under wraps during this whole Jerry Falwell brouhaha, but I've reached my limit, so here's my two cents:

Okay, okay...in your heart you can't bring yourself to hate Jerry Falwell. Well pin a rose on you and call you morally superior.

But DON'T admonish me, DON'T point your finger at me and make the insinuation that I am somehow morally or ethically inferior because I jumped with joy when I found out the loathsome fat fuck had died.

I went through adolesence and a good share of my early adulthood trying to convince myself that I wasn't the pile of evil shit Jerry Falwell would have liked you to believe I was. Moreover, I had to listen to his simpleton Evangelical robot clones spout the same, twisted rhetoric.

I'm lucky. I made it through the process of accepting my sexuality more or less unscathed psychologically, but it wasn't without a lot of swimming against the tide of polluted streams of rhetoric spit out by that ployester-clad false Messiah. Others weren't so lucky.

So yeah...till you have walked a mile in my shoes, or the shoes of any other gay person who has had to fight the brand of bigotry pedaled by this bastard SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY ABOUT ME WANTING TO DANCE ON THE GRAVE OF FALWELL.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. I've walked in your shoes

my father walked in them and then some

Fifty of my relatives lay in ashes at a place called Treblinka because they were Jewish... just like Falwell would have loved to do that to you... and me... who also has other minority issues that make Falwell hate my kind

I have faced fear because I am Jewish

I have walked in those shoes because I am an immigrant

And I have walked in those shoes because I came from a third world country

So yes I have walked in your shoes

And you know what is worst I will share with you once again what my father shared with me about hate.

hate is corrosive

It is also blinding

By the way it is nothing about moral superiority... but if you wish to believe that, your prerogative'

But while you dance and sing in joy... Dominionist are thinking on how to make their message not only corrosive but reality

Celebrate that they have not been able to do that

And be fully aware that yes, they will continue to try.

Don't be a victim

Be a survivor...