Falwell hatred issue: It is about Civility. We need civility in a just society.

[Morereason]

I have not posted about Falwell, but have been "lurking". I have to say while I understand both sides...

I "Get" what the folks objecting are saying. And it is not being heard.

If we are going to build a better society, WE MUST HAVE A PLACE FOR CIVILITY. Destructive anger, which is basically what I think we are allowing to get the better of us, is not something that is consistant with making a Just and Progressive society. Destructive anger derails Democracy. It inflates and kills communication. It is human and happens, but it is a root of violence and is not healthy.

If we want a just society simply "Demanding" it and having an angry revolution or some such does nothing. Look at the former Soviet Union.

Who are we emulating and learning from? Leaders in the progressive movement? Philosophers of peace? Ghandi?

There are times when just people have to fight in anger, but only when absolutely necessary. This is not one of those times.

By allowing this kind of anger, venting, whatever your want to call it, we only hurt what we think we want to do.

If we want to make a better world we have to fight this side of our human nature. Learn. Understand. Love.

(edited to fix spelling and remove exclamations in title)

If you agree please recommend. I hope this message will help build understanding.

[Jed Dilligan]

1. Show me a just society

and maybe I'll learn to be civil.

[Morereason]

2. How we build one if we perpetuate the ills of the other?

[Jed Dilligan]

7. I don't buy it

The "we have to change ourselves first" swallowed up the activism of the sixties and engendered the narcissism of every decade since. Left and right, we have the weakest generation of leaders in history, people who confuse the project of being a great person with actual projects that need to be accomplished.

You don't have to be perfect to change what is wrong with the world. Our greatest leaders all had their personal flaws, anger or boozing or philandering or whatever. I wouldn't trade one of them for all the perfectly self-actualized individuals in the world.

[BurtWorm]

3. The society just may become a little more civil

now that Jerry "Fat Motherfucker" Falwell is departed from it.

:patriot:

[kimmerspixelated]

4. Well put!

My thoughts exactly. One of the the best ways to fight hatred and anger is to spread love and tolerance. That said, we can rant and rave, but we don't have to pull out the absolute worst in ourselves over someone that absolutely isn't/wasn't worth it!

[Tarheel_Dem]

5. You are kidding right?

While I understand the sentiment behind your post, I disagree most strenuously with its content. Jerry Falwell was one of the most divisive hate-filled "religious leaders" of the 20th century, so I find it difficult that we're being asked to treat him with the respect that he never showed us while he was alive. And I don't intend to speak any differently of him because he's dead. Sorry....

[Morereason]

10. There is a line that is crossed. I think we need to be aware of it

I somewhat disagree though. We *do* have to learn to treat each other with more respect if we are going to really have a better society. We are a very angry and violent society.
You don't have to appreciate him.

But fight his **IDEAS** not his dead body. There is a difference.

[treestar]

20. Tell that to the right wing

That's what we've been doing for the last 30 years and guess what? The RW has gotten more and more of what it wants.

It's not working - it has a certain feel-good, positive thinking aspect to it, but it's not working in present day America.

RWs just see it as weakness. That's the way they operate.

[tlsmith1963]

97. Nice Doesn't Work With These People

The conservatives are the coldest people I have ever come across. No compassion, no sympathy, no empathy...nothing. They weren't always this bad, but the neocon sickness has infected them. If they go back to the way they once were, I will try to be nicer to them. Otherwise, forget it.

[Jamastiene]

47. Great point.

I'm not going to sing the man's praises after all the hate speech he used against GLBT people, pagans, women, and anyone else who didn't agree with him hook, line and sinker. The man made many arrogant hate-filled comments while he was alive. That's a fact that not too many people can dispute. If stating facts make me less civil, then the discourse has been stifled. Why bother being here in that case?

[Blashyrkh]

78. So, please, explain how lowering yourself to his level rather than ignoring him is the answer?

[Gemini Cat]

119. So who is lowering themselves to his level?

No one (here) that I've seen.
No one here has gotten as vile as that dead fuck-wad.


Thank-you for your concern about levels and such.

[iverglas]

227. STOP the goddamned EQUIVOCATION

I hate Jerry Falwell.
I hate brussels sprouts.
I hate gay men and lesbians and unsubmitted women and liberals.


Do you see ANY similarities between ANY of those statements?

I do not. And anyone who claims to is being less than, er, intellectually honest.

Hating a person who has done nothing but speak and do evil, and promote the harming of other people, and contribute mightily to a climate of hatred and oppression in his society, IS NOT THE SAME AS hating people because of who and what they are, when who and what they are is none of one's fucking business and of no concern to anyone but themselves.

Stop it, just fucking stop it. It is beyond tired.

[gatorboy]

6. Everybody give that corpse a biiiiig hug!

[Madspirit]

11. Please don't make me Gatorboy...

I don't want to hug him.
Lee

[Solly Mack]

22. there's a word for that - besides ew, that is

[bobbolink]

8. Civility died, along with justice.

Our society just needs to recognize our own death.

[Bucky]

170. Just isn't dead. It's just under-exercised. We make justice & civility stronger by practicing them.

[Madspirit]

9. Let me know

Let me know when we have a more just society. In the meantime...ding dong the fascist fucker is dead...not just a little dead...waaaaaay dead....dead dead dead....ding dong. QUIT TRYING TO COVER THE CRIMES OF FASCISTS UNDER SANCTIMONY AND PSEUDO CIVILITY.

How's this for civil:

Matthew Shepard
On October 6, 1998, 21-year-old college student Matthew Shepard was tied to a fence in Laramie, Wyoming, pistol-whipped, then left for dead in the freezing night. He died six days later.

Brandon Teena
Born Teena Brandon and raised as a girl, he was living as a man known as Brandon Teena in Falls City, Nebraska, when he was murdered at age 21. In December of 1993, two men who discovered his gender raped him. His attackers later shot and killed him after learning Brandon had reported the rape and was to help police in the investigation.

Danny Overstreet
On September 22, 2000, a man looking to "waste some faggots" entered a gay bar in Roanoke, Virginia and opened fire, killing Danny Overstreet, and injuring 6 others.

JR Warren
On the fourth of July, 2000, JR Warren, 26, who was black and gay, was beaten to death by three men in West Virginia, then run over by a car to make it look like a hit and run.

PFC Barry Winchell
Pfc. Barry Winchell, 21, was beaten to death by fellow servicemembers while sleeping in his cot on July 5, 1999 at Fort Campbell, Ky. His Army colleagues thought (correctly) that he was gay, so they killed him.

Billy Jack Gaither
Billy Jack Gaither, 39, of Sylacauga, Alabama was bludgeoned to death by two men on Feb. 19, 1999, then set on fire with automobile tires because he was gay.

Bill Clayton
On May 8, 1995, Bill Clayton, 17, committed suicide after having been brutally assaulted for being bisexual.

Tyra Hunter
On August 7, 1995, Tyra Hunter died after DC fire department emergency medical technicians called her epithets, backed away, and refused to render treatment on discovering that she was a transgendered woman.


(Courtesy of OUT magazine.)

Through 1994

ALABAMA
James Primus, 35- murdered, set on fire in his car, 21 June 1993

ARIZONA
Joseph Charles Holleran- beaten, assaulted, 24 October 1992, died May 1994
Duane Linsley- shot, 16 January 1994
Robert Haines- shot execution-style, 4 April 1994
Michael Despain, 24- burned, 6 June 1994
Thomas Frazee, 28- shot, 12 December 1994

ARKANSAS
Chris Miller, 23- stabbed and beaten, 30 July 1993
Ronnie Hugh Smith, 58- bludgeoned, found 25 February 1994

CALIFORNIA
John Garfield- shot, 30 May 1992
Cameron(Tina) Tanner- fall 1992
Mauricio Bassa- murdered, 22 May 1993
Keith Michael Ogden, 31- beaten, 7 July 1993
John Duncan O'Friel, 46- beaten, 8 July 1993
Father Ronald Maupin- multiple stab wounds, August 1993
James Graves- bludgeoned, 22 December 1993
Tony Ray- shot, 24 March 1994
Tommy Wenger, 24- multiple stab wounds, dismembered, 28 March 1994
Therman Brown, 50- gunshot wounds, 4 July 1994
Jon Simmons- gunshot to the head, 17 October 1994

COLORADO
James Holman, 36- multiple stab wounds, 13 February 1992
David Stewart- stabbed, 2 June 1992
Benjamin Zesch, 61- multiple stab wounds, 16 July 1992
*Robert Ferrell, 57- multiple stab wounds 15 September 1992
*Anthony carr, 33- stabbed, 26 December 1992
Randy Gonzales, 26- multiple stab wounds, 22 January 1993
Steven R. Heyman, 47- bludgeoned, 2 November 1993
*Bruce Hutchinson, 31- raped, bludgeoned 8 May 1994
*Poul Anderson, 54- gunshot to the head, found 23 May 1994

CONNECTICUT
James Maile, 25- bludgeoned, 10 December 1993

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA (Metro Area)

Sanford "Sam" Swift, 31- puncture wound to the head, 11 June 1992
Jack Cowles, 74- stabbed and bludgeoned, 21 December 1992
Kenneth Love, 42- head caved in, 21 December 1992
Ana Maria Rosales, 24- shot in the face, 7 January 1993
Alan Haskell, 30- strangled, 3 February 1993
Ricky Godbolt, 33- bound, gagged, and stabbed, 16 September 1993
Rogers Donahue, 25- bound, gagged, and stabbed, 16 September 1993
Eric Moore, 22- shot at point-blank range, body hung from a hook, 3 January 1993
Charles Logan, 47- multiple gunshot wounds, 8 January 1994
Paul McClure, 47- strangled, 5 February 1994
Frank W. White, 56- multiple gunshot wounds, 18 March 1994
*David A. Jarman, 38- strangled, 4 April 1994
Andrew Rowe, 53- multiple stab wounds, found 9 May 1994
Marvin Greenwell, 55- multiple stab wounds, found 10 May 1994
Stuart Jerome Moses, 33- multiple gunshot wounds, 17 May 1994
Shelton Thigpen, 74- strangled, found 23 June 1994

FLORIDA
James Flaherty, 52- stabbed, bludgeoned, and strangled, 14 February 1993
Michael Cooper,- multiple gunshot wounds, 11 March 1993
Craig Duncan, 20s- stabbed, March 1994
*Albert Alcie Morris, 37- bludgeoned and shot, 19 May 1994
*Walter Jammell Hinton, 43- murdered, 20 November 1994
*John Hardy Roberts, 59- murdered, 15 March 1994

GEORGIA
*Unidentified male transvestite, shot, December 1992
Elizabeth Kelle Davidson, 25- shot, 14 January 1993
Milton Bradley, 72- strangled and beaten, 5 May 1994
*Unidentified gay man- killed by serial killer Gary Ray Bowles, May 1994

ILLINOIS
Robert Harris- bludgeoned, 2 February 1993
Dennis Johnson- throat slit, 31 October 1993
Unidentified gay man, 70s- beaten, December 1993
Unidentified transvestite- multiple stab wounds, 18 December 1993
Unidentified male prostitute- multiple stab wounds, 31 December 1993
William Lemke- multiple stab wounds, 9 April 1994
Unidentified gay man- multiple stab wounds, 22 April 1994

INDIANA
Leta Dains- stabbed, 8 November 1992
Pamela Agee- stabbed, 8 November 1992
*Unidentified gay man, 22- murdered, 31 May 1993
*Unidentified gay man, 50- gunshot wound, June 1994

KANSAS
Unidentified gay man, 20s- bludgeoned, found 29 October 1994

KENTUCKY
Jack Gilman- shot in the head, 9 May 1993

LOUISIANA
Unidentified gay man, 51- beaten, 24 April 1993
Joe Balogg, 22- straight man stabbed by five men shouting antigay epithets, 12 November 1993

MARYLAND
Joey H. Jordan, 31- gunshot wound to the head, 6 July 1992
Marvin Johnson, 29- multiple stab wounds, 2 January 1994

MASSACHUSETTS
Thomas Carey, 39- gunshot wounds, 14 May 1993

MICHIGAN
Susan Pittman, 56- shot at point-blank range by neighbor, May 1992
Christine Puckett, 39- shot at point-blank range by neighbor, May 1992
Bruce Andrews, 28- multiple stab wounds, October 1992
Jeffrey Dansby- stabbed, March 1993
David Converse, 51- stabbed, 16 July 1994
Gary Rocus, 41- beaten and strangled, November 1994
MINNESOTA

Howard Liebhaber, 34- beaten and stabbed, 25 October 1992
Terry Oliver, 27- beaten and strangled, found 29 January 1993
Duane Swalve, 23- beaten and strangled, 29 April 1993
Craig Green, 34- beaten, 26 May 1993
Johnnie Williams, 48- beaten and strangled, 15 July 1994
Steven Fox, 25- bludgeoned, neck broken, 20 July 1994

MISSISSIPPI
Robert Walters, 34- gunshot wound to the head, 8 October 1994
Joseph Shoemake, 24- gunshot wound to the head, 8 October 1994
Stanley King, 24- shot, 15 December 1994

MISSOURI
William Childs, 27- beaten, stabbed, throat slit, 22 April 1993
Craig Johnson, 23- gunshot wound to the head, 27 June 1993

NEBRASKA
Brandon Teena, 21- execution-style shooting, 31 December 1993

NEVADA
William Metz- multiple stab wounds, 8 July 1994
Anton Walker, 54- bludgeoned, induced heart attack, August 1994

NEW JERSEY
James Septimphelter- strangeled, 5 March 1994
Harold Draper, 29- multiple stab wounds, 30 May 1992
*Thomas Mulcahey, 57- dismembered, 13 July 1992

NEW YORK
Julio Prado, 39- multiple stab wounds, 11 January 1992
Jesus Santiago, 24- beaten, 2 February 1992
Bernie Walsh, 28- bludgeoned and stabbed, 12 April 1992
Marsha P. Johnson (Malcom Michaels, Jr.), 46- drowned, 6 July 1992
Victor Bones, 20s- gunshot wound to the head, 27 July 1992
Vanathan Pleasant, III, 21- multiple gunshot wounds to the head, 19 July 1992
Brian Burke, 36- bludgeoned, found 25 October 1992
David Schwartz, 55- multiple stab wounds, found 9 November 1992
Salvatore Caggiano, 50s- strangled and burned, 26 December 1992
Stephan "Stephanie" Chapman, 20- gunshot wound to the head, December 1992
Lawrence Andrews, 44- strangled and stabbed, 11 March 1993
George "Joe" Ortiz, 40- multiple stab wounds, bludgeoned, 27 March 1993
Roosevelt "Terry" Lewis, 30s- strangled and burned, found 3 April 1993
Charles Lee- multiple stab wounds, 17 April 1993
*Anthony Marrero, 44- stabbed and dismembered, 16 May 1993
Milton Setzer, 60- throat slit, 29 June 1993
Eric Price, 25- throat slit, 29 June 1993
Dwight Greene, 44- bludgeoned, 8 July 1993
James Seward, 42- multiple stab wounds, 28 July 1993
*Michael Sakara, 56- dismembered, 31 July 1993
Jimmy Hawkins, 50- multiple stab wounds, found 15 August 1993
Mervin Wallace, mid 50s- strangled, found 30 September 1993
Jeannie Fenmore, 48- gunshot wound to the head, 23 December 1993
Pauline Campbell, 34- multiple stab wounds, 23 February 1994
Bernard Friedman, 56- multiple stab wounds, 20 April 1994
John Stella, 33- gunshot wounds, 1 May 1994
Javier Munsuri, 40- gunshot wound to the head, found 28 May 1994
Richard Whitesell, 32- multiple stab wounds, 13 June 1994
Martin Parian, 20s- gunshot wound to the head, 13 July 1994
Nelson Rawlins, 48- stabbed, found 30 July 1994
*Benjamin Rosario, 45- dismembered, 3 August 1994
Robert Kase, 44- 16 October 1994

NORTH CAROLINA
Carlos Stoner, 33- stabbed and beaten, 27 May 1992
Gerald Taylor, 66- multiple stab wounds, 20 July 1992
James Buchanan, 52- gunshot wound to the head, burned, 2 October 1994
Jerry Lee Dowdy, 50- bludgeoned, 2 October 1994



OHIO
Unidentified gay man- gunshot wounds, 13 October 1992
George S.- bludgeoned, mutilated, 10 January 1993
Eric Farrow (a.k.a. Ashley-Ann Summers)- gunshot wounds, found 20 November 1993

OKLAHOMA
Unidentified gay man, shot, March 1993

OREGON
Hattie Mae Cohens, 25- smoke inhalation due to firebombing, 26 September 1992
Brian Mock, 45- smoke inhalation due to firebombing, 26 September 1992

PENNSYLVANIA
Robert Hagan- throat slashed, found 9 August 1993
Paul Steekman, 47- beaten, 3 April 1994
Robert Harris- strangled, 5 October 1994

RHODE ISLAND
Roger Oliver, 23- beaten, near-decapitation 2 May 1994

SOUTH CAROLINA
Andre Jones, 33- bludgeoned, run over by car, 23 July 1994

TENNESSEE
Unidentified gay man- bludgeoned, 21 July 1994

TEXAS
Jose Rubio- multiple stab wounds, 1 July 1992
*Leopoldo "Paul" Quintanilla, 29- multiple stab wounds, throat and genitals cut, 23 June 1993
Nicholas West, 23- multiple gunshot wounds, 30 November 1993
*Larry Leggett- multiple stab wounds, 25 January 1994
*Joe Trevino, strangled and bludgeoned, 3 March 1994
Michael Benishek- bludgeoned and throat slit, January 1994
Tommy Musick, 48- multiple gunshot wounds, Feubruary 1994
John Anthony Burwell, 26- multiple gunshot wounds, 2 April 1994
Michael Burzinski, 29- gunshot wound to the head, 30 July 1994
Larry David Allen- multiple stab wounds, 18 August 1994

UTAH
Doug Koehler, 31- gunshot wound to the head, 15 August 1993

VIRGINIA
*Unidentified gay man, 27- strangled, 28 June 1993
*Unidentified gay man, 24- strangled, 3 September 1993
Gary Watts, 34- multiple gunshot wounds, 10 June 1994
*Henry Weatherford Jr., 50- shot, 13 June 1994
*Garland LeRoy Taylor, 24- strangled, 17 September 1994
Harold Coon- beaten and stabbed, 17 December 1994

WASHINGTON
Bradley Wantdler- multiple stab wounds, 20 June 1993

WYOMING
Roger Melner, 60s- bludgeoned, fall 1994


* Murder committed or suspected to have been committed by an antigay serial killer.


_Principal_Source_: New York City Anti-Violence Project report, 1994

[Morereason]

16. Your post is very informative. But you don't realize how much the anger distracts from your message

Do we want to stop the violence and hate, or do we just want to "shift" it to the our side and the violence to their side.

[Madspirit]

17. I AM Angry!

...and it will be my fuel. YOU can be a Pollyanna. Don't try to force it on us.
We're pissed and we're not going to take it any more. We aren't asking for YOUR approval. We aren't asking for anything. We're taking what is ours.
Lee

[Morereason]

37. You just turned me into "opposition" when I said your post was informative

Your tone is offensive on a personal level. I have remained civil to you and you just personally attacked me. Don't you see it yet? You let your anger rule your own effectiveness. You may ultimately alienate someone who is an ally. Why? Do we really want change or revenge?

[Duncan Grant]

83. Fine, don't be my ally.

If you can't muster more than this in the face of the injustices perpetrated upon GLBT people then go back to watching your television (or whatever it is you do in your peaceful and oh-so-evolved manner).

As far as I can tell, no one is talking about revenge except you.

[LostinVA]

163. Who mentioned revenge or violence? No one

[DearAbby]

56. "OH" STANDING OVATION! -nt

[iverglas]

40. and you apparently don't realize a few things either

Actually, I wouldn't phrase it that way myself. I find it utterly patronizing.

You are committing an apples and oranges fallacy. I keep trying to get people here to realize this ...

Hating complete strangers because of who they are is one thing. Hating people because of the colour of the skin or the sex of the person to whom they are attracted or what they think or do in matters that are not your concern, and spending your life saying and doing things for the purpose of whipping up hatred against those people on the part of other people (even if you pretend that's not what you're doing): "apple".

Hating public persons because of what they do is another thing. Hating an individual who has spent his life whipping up hatred against complete strangers because of who they are: "orange".

They are not the same. They are not equivalent, morally or any other wise.

A society in which people are hated for who they are, or for things they think or do that are none of anyone else's business, when they have done nothing to harm anyone, is a society I don't want to live in.

A society in which people who do that are not hated is also a society I don't want to live in.

A society in which people do not have a deep-down, thorough-going, irresistible instinct of hatred for people who knowingly and intentionally incite hatred against innocent people and knowingly and intentionally seek to have harmed caused to innocent people is never going to be a just society.

Reason is just not enough. With reason alone, we would spend our lives arguing cases with the Falwells of the world. They don't want reasoning with, they want flat-out, full-force rejection; they want fingers pointed at them and they want naming. We'll be reasoning with them and exhibiting decent restraint, and they'll be carting their victims off to the prisons and graveyards.

Anyone who thinks for a moment that people who are driven by hatred of complete strangers because of who they are is going to be altered by seeing their victims exhibit decent restraint when one of them leaves our company is in for some big disappointments. They don't want a just society, and they don't want peaceful coexistence. They want you, dead or alive.

[noiretextatique]

53. i am not violent, nor do i hate

it's people like falwell who spread violence and hatred. i don't rejoice in his death, but i won't shed a tear either. and i'll add...at least he won't be around anymore to continue preaching hatred.

[Duncan Grant]

61. Perhaps if you could empathize with Madspirit's post you wouldn't be distracted from the message.

I for one, will not be complicit in my own oppression. This is healthy anger you're seeing; not something destructive, violent or hateful.

I'm interested in your empathy, not your judgment or discomfort with emotions you apparently can't tolerate. No GLBT person is suggesting we "shift" violence and hate to our side. Honestly! :grr:

[Bluerthanblue]

68. are you sure about your last

statement?

You have no way of knowing how much anyone posting on this internet can empathize with MadSpirit or anyone. Hatred given free reign, is a deadly destructive force, and more like a plague than a cancer.

Refusing to employ the weapons that those who have done 'us' harm isn't being 'complicit' in our own oppression. It is sometimes the only way we have left of taking a meaningful stand in opposition to those who seek to destroy us.

No one has the 'corner' on suffering, injustice and loss. That doesn't minimize any injustice- or hate-filled action. It is a statement of truth.

I wish us ALL, peace, healing and wisdom,
blu

[Duncan Grant]

82. Must we pathologize anger? Can't we trust people to express anger in healthy ways without judgment?

You have no way of knowing how much anyone posting on this internet can empathize with MadSpirit or anyone.

In the broadest sense you're right but I'm speaking to a specific post which I believe is more judgmental than empathetic, ymmv. I still believe that the anger of GLBT people is healthy -- it's self-defense, it's a tool to reclaim personal power, it's a creative engine used in the face of an entire culture who is complicit in oppressing GLBT people. Why so many here are enablers in the face of such an injustice is beyond me!

Hatred given free reign, is a deadly destructive force, and more like a plague than a cancer.

Who's giving free reign to hatred? Perhaps this is projection on your part? I see no evidence to support a "free reign" argument -- at least not in Madspirit's or my own posts.

Refusing to employ the weapons that those who have done 'us' harm isn't being 'complicit' in our own oppression.

How did you ever make that leap based on my post? I'm not a "campfire kum-by-yah singing" doormat. I'm an activist and community organizer. We bring attention to injustice. After all, SNCC played an important role in the civil rights movement, too!

It is sometimes the only way we have left of taking a meaningful stand in opposition to those who seek to destroy us.

I'm not advocating that we employ the weapons which Falwell used against "us". I'm not a deceitful pompous ass who relies upon the manipulation of ignorant people to gain wealth and power. While I see the value of what you suggest, I don't think it has much context in regard to the list Madspirit posted. Again, ymmv.

No one has the 'corner' on suffering, injustice and loss. That doesn't minimize any injustice- or hate-filled action. It is a statement of truth.

How dare you trivialize GLBT people with such a statement. WE more than most KNOW the truth of that sentiment. Do you honestly think that all GLBT activists are interested solely in their own cause? We're trying to bring justice to everyone. Again, it speaks to empathy.

I wish us ALL, peace, healing and wisdom,

I do too. I happen to think that we have more tools at our disposal than passivity and the race to some idealized moral highground. Maybe you could go preach this "hate is cancer" message to the millions of children who go to bed hungry every night? I'm sure it will be as well received by them as it is by me.

edit: sp

[Bluerthanblue]

95. you claim to care about every one's

rights, but don't demonstrate it in your reply.

You believe "your" perspective gives you more knowledge of suffering than "most people"??-

You have made some pretty sweeping assumptions, given you know absolutely nothing about me at all.

How "dare" I?

How dare you?


I'm sorry life has hurt you so severely.
I hope you find some peace and healing.
I'm sorry to have offended you.
I'm not sorry for trying to offer my perspective.

peace,
blu

[Duncan Grant]

107. Oh, bullshit.

Address some of my questions, engage in a little empathy and we can talk some more. Otherwise, nice to meet ya.

[Puglover]

171. Hear hear!

I'm getting way tired of these dime store Gandhi knock offs too.

[Bluerthanblue]

235. i think i finally

understand what i'm having such a hard time hearing-

You have no way of knowing how much anyone posting on this internet can empathize with MadSpirit or anyone.

In the broadest sense you're right but I'm speaking to a specific post which I believe is more judgmental than empathetic, ymmv. I still believe that the anger of GLBT people is healthy -- it's self-defense, it's a tool to reclaim personal power, it's a creative engine used in the face of an entire culture who is complicit in oppressing GLBT people. Why so many here are enablers in the face of such an injustice is beyond me!

Is it that because i personally am not gay, i'm part of the 'complicit culture'??

That i 'am' simply by being me your oppressor?

It makes sense in a pretty twisted and sad way.

but at last it makes sense.

I'm sorry.

blu

[iverglas]

236. up to you

I'm not gay or lesbian, but I have no problem at all understanding why anyone -- gay, lesbian, female, Iranian, Chilean, any other oppressed and victimized group you might want to mention -- would REJOICE in the death of one of their long-time, big-time persecutors.

If you think you don't get it because you're not gay or lesbian, you could be right. Seems kinda lame to me, but whatever.

I don't think anybody else has said it, anyhow. But "twisted" might be just the word you're looking for when considering your interpretation of what was said in the post you responded to.

[Bluerthanblue]

243. i'm not

saying I can't understand why anyone would not feel relief or feel like rejoicing because falwell died. And I've never said as much. It isn't that I don't feel that I 'get' it.

But when people have spoken something other than "you go girl" or it's equivalent we are often told that we cannot begin to comprehend the kind of pain and suffering that 'they' have endured.

That is a bit unfair- but hey.

The poster i addressed my above response to said they were interested in empathy- And people have expressed empathy- and been rejected. It has been said that if you aren't gay, a minority, or a woman your perspective about falwell is worthless. You are for all intents and purposes an enemy.

It is impossible not to carry some of the emotions from one post over into another on this issue- After reading reply after reply that accused people of being 'trolls' 'Pollyanna's' 'kum-by-ya sit around the campfire' losers', it's gotten harder to 'hear' posts in anything other than a snarky tone. Maybe it's time to use the "ignore" function for the first time ever- ?

When reading the post I quoted in the post you replied to- the words which are bolded jumped out- and offered what might be an explanation for why some people are getting their heads bitten off, or trashed with little cause.

i'm tired and babbling-

sorry-
good-nite.
blu

[Duncan Grant]

239. I don't understand what you're trying to tell me.

What makes sense in a pretty twisted and sad way? I'm not firing these questions off at you just to impress everyone with what a smart-ass I can be. I'm really interested in dialog. Unfortunately, I can't tell if you're exploring some personal epiphany or trying to insult me.

Who you're attracted to has nothing to do with it; nor does just being "you".

In an attempt to answer your questions, I'd say you're complicit (and uninformed) if you think GLBT people enjoy the same rights and privileges as every other American. Whether or not you're my oppressor simply by being you is a question I can't answer -- are you?

[Bluerthanblue]

245. i can tell you

one thing without any problem-
I am not trying to insult you-

The last thing i have tried to do in this whole mess is insult or cause more pain.

i'm really maxed out tonite. i'm sick to death of all the animosity, anger and indignation in this world-

I don't know many people who "enjoy the same rights and privileges as every other American"- Even when the 'laws' say they should-

Ask my 14yr old African American son. Ask him if he enjoys the same 'rights' that the white boys in his class do- Ask him why the security guards follow him around a store like white on rice- Ask him why people lock their doors when he is walking down the road, why he will have to expect to be pulled over by police for no reason at all other than the color of his skin. Some groups who cope with discrimination get a choice to disclose who they are- not my son-

... i could go on but i won't- there are far too many examples of the way society has harmed innocent people for absolutely NO good reason- and who continue to harm us, and harbor pre-conceived beliefs and prejudices that KILL- and destroy lives. Being born female was my second sin, being born to begin with was my first- I understand your suffering is sacred to you, as mine is to me- but this shouldn't be a contest- and i don't believe people should be blithely dismissed as 'not having a clue' unless they join the 'gang'- not if we hope to really change the world-

i'm going to shut up and try and leave this world behind for awhile-

peace,
blu

[Gemini Cat]

114. What side are you talking about?

Who's "side" are you on?

[LostinVA]

161. Anger is allowed

[JuniperLea]

30. Falwell and his ilk consider these to be victories...

Nuff said.

[cboy4]

126. Oh yes Madspirit, your post is very "informative." Not horribly sad

or tragic or outrageous. Just "informative." -- You know, like Schindler's List was informative. :eyes:

[LostinVA]

160. Fantastic post, Lee

[Kutjara]

12. Be civil, by all means...

...but not to the extent of massaging reality into some Disneyfied rose-tinted lie. Falwell was a force for evil, and his legacy must always reflect that fact. To say otherwise, or to disguise the fact in comforting platitudes, is to do injustice to the truth. Certain people (Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, "Papa Doc" come to mind) do not deserve to benefit from the injunction against speaking ill of the dead. Falwell was not able to wreak quite as much havok as the other names on my list, but that was more the result of a lack of opportunity than a lack of intent.

[Morereason]

19. Can't disagree with you. You make the point while remaining civil

I agree. Being civil is not candy coating. It is empowering. I think we look at civil discourse as meaning we can't express strong opinions or argue. Which is not true.

[LostinVA]

164. Very good post!

And, I agree. As I've been saying this week: Falwell was as bad as anyone who sat in the dock at Nuremberg. Saying he wasn't is turning a blind eye to hate and evil.

[devilgrrl]

13. I'll give the grave dancers this - at least they focus their ire on one person at a time...

rather than an entire group. Jerry Falwell is one person. A repugnant person.

[Madspirit]

18. ...and Falwell

...actually caused harm and focused it on ALL gays, women, minorities, etc. ...and no Falwells were actually harmed in the making of these threads.
Lee

[JuniperLea]

25. This is the part that chaps my hide

He was a vile excuse of a human being and he caused great harm to society with his bigotry. I say any rejoicing in his demise, along with accurate descriptive reasons for people to feel that way are absolutely in order. If that digresses to school yard taunting, so be it. We have lived with the beast for a very long time and there has been much damage done and much anger pent up. Releasing that anger, and showing just cause why, is very healthy. To push it back down again is to turn a back on it. That will never, ever do.

[Madspirit]

39. Hey Juniper!

I agree...of course. At least this newbie wasn't vile toward us as many have been. Kind of sweet and naive...<g>
Lee

[Iris]

14. That'd be great if we lived in a just society.

Falwell was an example of just how unjust our society is.

[Jankyn]

15. I "get" what you're saying...

...but (which means I'm going to disagree) all too often, "civility" is the grease that oils the wheels of oppression.

Sure is hard to be polite when someone is trying to kill you.

[Morereason]

23. Civility does not mean "polite". Strong leaders remain civil but express strong ideas.

Martin Luther King was a civil man. But he awoke passion within people. His discourse was not weak. It was not "polite".

Imagine if Martin Luther King started focusing on anger in his speeches? There are some that think that would have been good. But I have read too much history. Violence in any form other than self defense leads to more violence. Regardless of who is right or wrong.

[Raksha]

74. A lot of the anger you're seeing here *IS* self-defense,

although somewhat after the fact. But that's the basic motivation.

Re >>Violence in any form other than self defense leads to more violence. Regardless of who is right or wrong.<<

BTW, I have a real prejudice against the very word "civility," let alone the concept. I've heard too many bleating demands from the right for "civility" (a word I ALWAYS put in quotation marks), which actually means the left is supposed to back off when we're winning, or worse yet not defend ourselves against THEIR lack of "civility."

Sorry, but I equate "civility" with "roll over and die." And what I REALLY resent more than anything are ANY statements asserting "that just puts our side on their level."

It reminds me something I heard from a Holocaust survivor years ago and never forgot: "We were the victims. We were not the perpetrators."

NO FUCKING WAY will the victims ever be on the same level as the perpetrators, no matter how much rage or lack of "civility" they express.

[jdiggity]

21. hmmm

You know what bothers me the most about this situation? I've been lurking on DU for a good 4-5 years now, and have never heard the name Falwell. Not once did i even hear it mentioned on DU.

Now the man dies, and all of a sudden we choose now to vent and rage against what this man has said? Why not while the man was alive? Or is it only when our opponents die that we gain the courage to shout back at them? As if Falwell is hearing what we're saying and could give a rats rear end what we think about him.

And that's what strikes me as classless in all this--the fact that I haven't heard a damn thing about this guy up until the time that he falls into his grave. If we had been ranting and railing against him the whole while, then at least we'd be being consistent.

[karlrschneider]

24. You must have been lurking VERY RARELY.

:eyes:

[gatorboy]

28. Slow lurker.

Like a sloth. You should check out his IM's. They take weeks to finish. :P

[jdiggity]

31. Actually

I check out DU at least once a day. Usually several times. Perhaps my mistake was never going to the religion forum. Dunno, but the name did not ring a bell for me when I associated it with DU.

[karlrschneider]

43. Apparently you are not aware of the (more accurate) spelling variations:

Foulball
Fartwell
Fatwall
and so forth

[gatorboy]

26. Who's "we"

You just got here. (Welcome by the way! :hi:)

And as far as not ever hearing his name. Well, you probably weren't looking very hard (I can't think of anyone that hadn't at least heard his 9/11 comments in passing).

[JuniperLea]

29. Surely you jest!

The leader of the silent majority has graced these hallowed halls since the beginning.

You have lost all credibility. Outright lies that you spout about this place is the only classless act I see here.

This vile creature, this subhuman, preached hate. Jesus did not. End of story.

[KG]

32. oops

[jdiggity]

33. Credibility?

I didn't realize I had been given any to start with.

[JuniperLea]

50. It's assumed that people who post here are credible...

It's like being innocent until proved guilty.

[Solly Mack]

35. crock.of.shit

Dec-31-04
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2885730
Jan-01-05
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2890062
Dec-30-04
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2882046
Nov-28-04
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2758627

Search link:1144 topics match your criteria - Jerry Falwell

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=search_advanced&hits_per_page=25&search_type=advanced&page=6

[gatorboy]

45. "Forget it, Jake. It's Freepertown."

[JuniperLea]

54. Well done n/t

[Duncan Grant]

98. That darn anecdotal evidence never stands up. LOL.

You're such a meany, Solly Mack! :rofl:

[iverglas]

42. google is your friend

http://www.google.ca/search?num=30&hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=site%3Awww.democraticunderground.com+fallwell+-2007&btnG=Search&meta=

search results for

site:www.democraticunderground.com falwell -2007

Oh dang! That was for "fallwell" -- 510 results prior to 2007, even misspelled!

Here's the real thing:

http://www.google.ca/search?num=30&hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=site%3Awww.democraticunderground.com+falwell+-07&btnG=Search&meta=

spelling the name right, and correcting to "-07" because that's how dates read in DU threads.

2,110 results (not counting "fallwell"s), an incomplete list because of how Google does things, but it should be a start.

[Crunchy Frog]

135. Really? You haven't seen a damn thing about Falwell posted

in all the 4 or 5 years you've been lurking here? We would have been consistent if we'd been railing against him this whole time?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2761946

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2527506

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2471794

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2230405

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2159552

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2025442

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2010947

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1936986

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1831237

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1725286

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1689698

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1640168

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1640938

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1567119

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1485576

Well gee, golly, gosh. Maybe you just haven't been looking in the right places. Like on the DU message board.

There are pages and pages and pages of these in the archives. :eyes:

[Tarheel_Dem]

185. Nice work Crunchy.....but I don't think you'll get a response or...

an "I'm sorry, I was mistaken" from newbie. That was perhaps the most easily & quickly debunked lie I've ever seen here at DU. You guys are good.....

:toast:

[edbermac]

27. I'm civil to people that are civil to me. On the other hand...

If they're not, they can fuck off.

When Bush was first elected, every Republican and their media whores were crying all over the airwaves "Oh, we must stop the politics of personal destruction".

This after trying to cut Bill Clinton a new asshole 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for 8+ years. And they're STILL doing it! "Oh, 9/11 happened because of Bill Clinton!" And "God help the US if Hillary is elected!"

FUCK THAT! I'm tired of eating shit from these scumbags.

[callous taoboy]

57. Some MEpublicans are tired of the Clinton haters, too. They know

they've been played. Just think what more intensified investigations by Waxman, Leahy etc. are going to reveal and how that will inevitably drive more people away from the God On Parade party.

[KG]

34. any comparision the of whats be posted on this site to the hate engendered but falwell and his ilk

is idiotic.

[Madspirit]

36. Believe it or Not

I will give you a kick and a recommend. I don't agree with you and I think you are a naif. I think anger is needed but I think you are sincere and hey, it would be cool for a newbie to make it to "Greatest Posts". I actually get what you are saying. I simply don't agree. As I said, this IS the time for anger.

Anyway, you just got a k&r from me, JUST for your sincerity...
Lee

[callous taoboy]

51. Madspirit- As an advocate for children I am pissed as hell at how

our society seems to be turning a blind eye to the fact that we are not only neglecting children more now than ever, we are using public institutions to label children as failures at ages 8 and 9 (through NCLB) when many of them haven't even had the chance to grow enough to handle the rigors of testing. It is insane. I'm doing what I can as a teacher to change this system (by teaming up with Democratic legislators who are introducing bills aimed at introducing reason into NCLB) while doing everything I can to help the struggling learners in my class. No, I'm not fishing for a merit badge. What I'm saying is, there are times when I want to drive to the state capitol and scream at the legislature for being complicit in this criminal treatment of young children. Would that be productive? Do I start by sending hate-mail to the people behind NCLB? Where would that get me?

Change is happening, slowly, yes, and with tragedies along the way. But I can't see how raging hatred of individuals is going to help. Europe is leaving fundamentalism behind and becoming ever more secular. The generation of youngsters coming up in the U.S. is more tolerant of gays and minorities than ever before.

Myself- I was a racist little bastard growing up. I'm sure there were progressives in my hometown at that time who would love to have found out who was behind some of the vandalism of property I took part in against the minorities who were moving into "our" white neighborhood and I'm sure some of these progressives, and most assuredly some minorities, would have kicked my ass had they found me. That would have learned me, no? No. Education did it. Now I have a hard time listening to MLK speak without getting choked up with emotion and feeling very shameful of my past actions. In those videos of police brutality against black demonstrators in Montgomery I feel powerful sympathy now for the black man who doesn't so much as raise his fists as the police raise batons. Way more powerful than getting my ass kicked, or getting screamed at.

Just my 2 cents.

[Madspirit]

62. I am

I am and have always been, as a former horribly battered and abused child, a Children's Advocate.
Lee

[callous taoboy]

67. You have my deepest understanding, Lee.

I was horribly neglected and psychologically abused myself, and my only light, my mom, died suddenly when I was nine. It will tear you up. But so will rage. I'm not trying to "preach," if you will. I just know that doing as much constructive work to battle the evils in society has been very good for my outlook. I was starting to relate another personal experience to you in a new thread but will throw it in here instead:

In '04 I had a Kerry yard sign in my very red neighborhood. It kept getting vandalized. I kept putting new ones out. I complained to my bush-loving neighbor one day about his dog keeping me up at night. I got a face full of rage thrown at me, so much so that several neighbors came out to watch. His wife joined in. I was called everything in the book by this bully, including, of course, a "fucking liberal asshole." It took every ounce of energy to contain the urge to bash the man's head in with a brick, especially given that he was reminding me of my old man when he'd go on one of his out-of-control rages at me. I calmly repeated that if something wasn't done about the dog it would become a law-enforcement issue. I walked back to my house as he continued to rage at me: "Yeah, crawl back into your fucking cave you goddamned liberal! Go smoke a joint!" He got nothing from me. I went inside, smoked something and calmed down. Then I wrote him a letter explaining why I am a liberal. It was a 5 pager, very diplomatic, front and back, and included a lot of my history and a lot of why I keep to myself. I put it in his mailbox the next morning on my way to school. The man came over when I got home and apologized, we shook hands and I've not heard one yip out of his dog. We aren't friends, really, but we wave to one another and I'd like to think he gained some respect for me and, perhaps, though not likely, for Democrats. His wife told me later that I had been the bigger man, and that that must've taken a lot of effort. I assured her that it did.

For what it's worth.

[Donnachaidh]

38. Civility has been used AGAINST those with differing viewpoints

Personally I'm sick to DEATH of all these cries for civility! We've been talked into an illegal war with civility, we've had our RIGHTS shredded with civility, we're having our working class strangled with civility.

I will NOT sit back and be NICED to death. I will NOT be ignored because I don't defer to someone else's false sense of decorum. I will NOT have my children's FUTURE stolen from them because I didn't keep my TONE down.

This is sickening! This call for civility is what got us into all this trouble in the first place. If you don't raise your voice in anger -- you are NOT paying attention!

:rant:

[Morereason]

41. I disagree

lack of informed citizenry, corruption, greed, intolerance, narcsisism have put us where we are.

I think some on this board do not understand. You can be angry and civil. They are not mutually exclusive.

[noiretextatique]

63. i agree with the other poster

the faux veneer of faux civility in public discourse is also a part of why we are where we are.

[Solly Mack]

158. It really is..."Thank you, Sir. May I have another?"

[Donnachaidh]

162. False Decorum

Is nothing more than shoving one's head in the sand.

[DearAbby]

44. Gee, I wonder if people wrung their hands

over those who expressed the joy of learning Hitler shot his brains out?

Sorry, I will not enable this, by not expressing what this piece of human filth stood for, what he did. It's like the battered wife syndrome, its all our fault that we were abused, so it is up to us to put on the better face, and try to change ourselves, to appease.

You are a better person than I. I will not do it.

You don't see people reacting like this at the news of the death of just anyone. What this man did, what he stood for, flew against decency. I spoke out against his views when he was alive, I will not be silent, now that he is dead. I will not be ashamed that the news of his death, caused a great relief within me.

I vented, and said I would dance on his grave. I doubt very seriously if that would ever happen. I am also sure you realize it was just a figure of speech. I am passed the grave dancing stage, back to the anger. We have a lot of work to do, to undo the harm this man and others like him have done to our country. Its not over.

I thought the Falwell threads would be over. the grave dancing part is, now its the hand wringer's turn?

[CBGLuthier]

55. Comparing Hitler to Falwell

Do you even listen to yourself. Do you understand what hyperbole is?

[Madspirit]

60. You are so full of it

All my Jewish friends say I can invoke the name of Hitler any time I want. In case you didn't know, they stuck US in ovens too. I don't think Hitler actually ever killed anyone with his own widdle hands either. He had others do it for him. Just like Falwell. HOW FUCKING DARE YOU BE DISMISSIVE OF THE DAMAGE, PAIN AND DEATH done to gays, minorities, lesbians, women, bisexuals and transgendered every single fucking day. Coretta Scott King spoke for US as did Yolanda King and Mandela and the NAACP and Amnesty International and The Southern Poverty Law Center. WE HAVE DONE NO VIOLENCE TO FALWELL. LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU HEAR OF A GAY ON STRAIGHT HATE CRIME. NO FALWELLS WERE ACTUALLY HURT IN THE MAKING OF THESE TRHEADS. you can stick your piety where the sun doesn't shine:

Matthew Shepard
On October 6, 1998, 21-year-old college student Matthew Shepard was tied to a fence in Laramie, Wyoming, pistol-whipped, then left for dead in the freezing night. He died six days later.

Brandon Teena
Born Teena Brandon and raised as a girl, he was living as a man known as Brandon Teena in Falls City, Nebraska, when he was murdered at age 21. In December of 1993, two men who discovered his gender raped him. His attackers later shot and killed him after learning Brandon had reported the rape and was to help police in the investigation.

Danny Overstreet
On September 22, 2000, a man looking to "waste some faggots" entered a gay bar in Roanoke, Virginia and opened fire, killing Danny Overstreet, and injuring 6 others.

JR Warren
On the fourth of July, 2000, JR Warren, 26, who was black and gay, was beaten to death by three men in West Virginia, then run over by a car to make it look like a hit and run.

PFC Barry Winchell
Pfc. Barry Winchell, 21, was beaten to death by fellow servicemembers while sleeping in his cot on July 5, 1999 at Fort Campbell, Ky. His Army colleagues thought (correctly) that he was gay, so they killed him.

Billy Jack Gaither
Billy Jack Gaither, 39, of Sylacauga, Alabama was bludgeoned to death by two men on Feb. 19, 1999, then set on fire with automobile tires because he was gay.

Bill Clayton
On May 8, 1995, Bill Clayton, 17, committed suicide after having been brutally assaulted for being bisexual.

Tyra Hunter
On August 7, 1995, Tyra Hunter died after DC fire department emergency medical technicians called her epithets, backed away, and refused to render treatment on discovering that she was a transgendered woman.


(Courtesy of OUT magazine.)

Through 1994

ALABAMA
James Primus, 35- murdered, set on fire in his car, 21 June 1993

ARIZONA
Joseph Charles Holleran- beaten, assaulted, 24 October 1992, died May 1994
Duane Linsley- shot, 16 January 1994
Robert Haines- shot execution-style, 4 April 1994
Michael Despain, 24- burned, 6 June 1994
Thomas Frazee, 28- shot, 12 December 1994

ARKANSAS
Chris Miller, 23- stabbed and beaten, 30 July 1993
Ronnie Hugh Smith, 58- bludgeoned, found 25 February 1994

CALIFORNIA
John Garfield- shot, 30 May 1992
Cameron(Tina) Tanner- fall 1992
Mauricio Bassa- murdered, 22 May 1993
Keith Michael Ogden, 31- beaten, 7 July 1993
John Duncan O'Friel, 46- beaten, 8 July 1993
Father Ronald Maupin- multiple stab wounds, August 1993
James Graves- bludgeoned, 22 December 1993
Tony Ray- shot, 24 March 1994
Tommy Wenger, 24- multiple stab wounds, dismembered, 28 March 1994
Therman Brown, 50- gunshot wounds, 4 July 1994
Jon Simmons- gunshot to the head, 17 October 1994

COLORADO
James Holman, 36- multiple stab wounds, 13 February 1992
David Stewart- stabbed, 2 June 1992
Benjamin Zesch, 61- multiple stab wounds, 16 July 1992
*Robert Ferrell, 57- multiple stab wounds 15 September 1992
*Anthony carr, 33- stabbed, 26 December 1992
Randy Gonzales, 26- multiple stab wounds, 22 January 1993
Steven R. Heyman, 47- bludgeoned, 2 November 1993
*Bruce Hutchinson, 31- raped, bludgeoned 8 May 1994
*Poul Anderson, 54- gunshot to the head, found 23 May 1994

CONNECTICUT
James Maile, 25- bludgeoned, 10 December 1993

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA (Metro Area)

Sanford "Sam" Swift, 31- puncture wound to the head, 11 June 1992
Jack Cowles, 74- stabbed and bludgeoned, 21 December 1992
Kenneth Love, 42- head caved in, 21 December 1992
Ana Maria Rosales, 24- shot in the face, 7 January 1993
Alan Haskell, 30- strangled, 3 February 1993
Ricky Godbolt, 33- bound, gagged, and stabbed, 16 September 1993
Rogers Donahue, 25- bound, gagged, and stabbed, 16 September 1993
Eric Moore, 22- shot at point-blank range, body hung from a hook, 3 January 1993
Charles Logan, 47- multiple gunshot wounds, 8 January 1994
Paul McClure, 47- strangled, 5 February 1994
Frank W. White, 56- multiple gunshot wounds, 18 March 1994
*David A. Jarman, 38- strangled, 4 April 1994
Andrew Rowe, 53- multiple stab wounds, found 9 May 1994
Marvin Greenwell, 55- multiple stab wounds, found 10 May 1994
Stuart Jerome Moses, 33- multiple gunshot wounds, 17 May 1994
Shelton Thigpen, 74- strangled, found 23 June 1994

FLORIDA
James Flaherty, 52- stabbed, bludgeoned, and strangled, 14 February 1993
Michael Cooper,- multiple gunshot wounds, 11 March 1993
Craig Duncan, 20s- stabbed, March 1994
*Albert Alcie Morris, 37- bludgeoned and shot, 19 May 1994
*Walter Jammell Hinton, 43- murdered, 20 November 1994
*John Hardy Roberts, 59- murdered, 15 March 1994

GEORGIA
*Unidentified male transvestite, shot, December 1992
Elizabeth Kelle Davidson, 25- shot, 14 January 1993
Milton Bradley, 72- strangled and beaten, 5 May 1994
*Unidentified gay man- killed by serial killer Gary Ray Bowles, May 1994

ILLINOIS
Robert Harris- bludgeoned, 2 February 1993
Dennis Johnson- throat slit, 31 October 1993
Unidentified gay man, 70s- beaten, December 1993
Unidentified transvestite- multiple stab wounds, 18 December 1993
Unidentified male prostitute- multiple stab wounds, 31 December 1993
William Lemke- multiple stab wounds, 9 April 1994
Unidentified gay man- multiple stab wounds, 22 April 1994

INDIANA
Leta Dains- stabbed, 8 November 1992
Pamela Agee- stabbed, 8 November 1992
*Unidentified gay man, 22- murdered, 31 May 1993
*Unidentified gay man, 50- gunshot wound, June 1994

KANSAS
Unidentified gay man, 20s- bludgeoned, found 29 October 1994

KENTUCKY
Jack Gilman- shot in the head, 9 May 1993

LOUISIANA
Unidentified gay man, 51- beaten, 24 April 1993
Joe Balogg, 22- straight man stabbed by five men shouting antigay epithets, 12 November 1993

MARYLAND
Joey H. Jordan, 31- gunshot wound to the head, 6 July 1992
Marvin Johnson, 29- multiple stab wounds, 2 January 1994

MASSACHUSETTS
Thomas Carey, 39- gunshot wounds, 14 May 1993

MICHIGAN
Susan Pittman, 56- shot at point-blank range by neighbor, May 1992
Christine Puckett, 39- shot at point-blank range by neighbor, May 1992
Bruce Andrews, 28- multiple stab wounds, October 1992
Jeffrey Dansby- stabbed, March 1993
David Converse, 51- stabbed, 16 July 1994
Gary Rocus, 41- beaten and strangled, November 1994
MINNESOTA

Howard Liebhaber, 34- beaten and stabbed, 25 October 1992
Terry Oliver, 27- beaten and strangled, found 29 January 1993
Duane Swalve, 23- beaten and strangled, 29 April 1993
Craig Green, 34- beaten, 26 May 1993
Johnnie Williams, 48- beaten and strangled, 15 July 1994
Steven Fox, 25- bludgeoned, neck broken, 20 July 1994

MISSISSIPPI
Robert Walters, 34- gunshot wound to the head, 8 October 1994
Joseph Shoemake, 24- gunshot wound to the head, 8 October 1994
Stanley King, 24- shot, 15 December 1994

MISSOURI
William Childs, 27- beaten, stabbed, throat slit, 22 April 1993
Craig Johnson, 23- gunshot wound to the head, 27 June 1993

NEBRASKA
Brandon Teena, 21- execution-style shooting, 31 December 1993

NEVADA
William Metz- multiple stab wounds, 8 July 1994
Anton Walker, 54- bludgeoned, induced heart attack, August 1994

NEW JERSEY
James Septimphelter- strangeled, 5 March 1994
Harold Draper, 29- multiple stab wounds, 30 May 1992
*Thomas Mulcahey, 57- dismembered, 13 July 1992

NEW YORK
Julio Prado, 39- multiple stab wounds, 11 January 1992
Jesus Santiago, 24- beaten, 2 February 1992
Bernie Walsh, 28- bludgeoned and stabbed, 12 April 1992
Marsha P. Johnson (Malcom Michaels, Jr.), 46- drowned, 6 July 1992
Victor Bones, 20s- gunshot wound to the head, 27 July 1992
Vanathan Pleasant, III, 21- multiple gunshot wounds to the head, 19 July 1992
Brian Burke, 36- bludgeoned, found 25 October 1992
David Schwartz, 55- multiple stab wounds, found 9 November 1992
Salvatore Caggiano, 50s- strangled and burned, 26 December 1992
Stephan "Stephanie" Chapman, 20- gunshot wound to the head, December 1992
Lawrence Andrews, 44- strangled and stabbed, 11 March 1993
George "Joe" Ortiz, 40- multiple stab wounds, bludgeoned, 27 March 1993
Roosevelt "Terry" Lewis, 30s- strangled and burned, found 3 April 1993
Charles Lee- multiple stab wounds, 17 April 1993
*Anthony Marrero, 44- stabbed and dismembered, 16 May 1993
Milton Setzer, 60- throat slit, 29 June 1993
Eric Price, 25- throat slit, 29 June 1993
Dwight Greene, 44- bludgeoned, 8 July 1993
James Seward, 42- multiple stab wounds, 28 July 1993
*Michael Sakara, 56- dismembered, 31 July 1993
Jimmy Hawkins, 50- multiple stab wounds, found 15 August 1993
Mervin Wallace, mid 50s- strangled, found 30 September 1993
Jeannie Fenmore, 48- gunshot wound to the head, 23 December 1993
Pauline Campbell, 34- multiple stab wounds, 23 February 1994
Bernard Friedman, 56- multiple stab wounds, 20 April 1994
John Stella, 33- gunshot wounds, 1 May 1994
Javier Munsuri, 40- gunshot wound to the head, found 28 May 1994
Richard Whitesell, 32- multiple stab wounds, 13 June 1994
Martin Parian, 20s- gunshot wound to the head, 13 July 1994
Nelson Rawlins, 48- stabbed, found 30 July 1994
*Benjamin Rosario, 45- dismembered, 3 August 1994
Robert Kase, 44- 16 October 1994

NORTH CAROLINA
Carlos Stoner, 33- stabbed and beaten, 27 May 1992
Gerald Taylor, 66- multiple stab wounds, 20 July 1992
James Buchanan, 52- gunshot wound to the head, burned, 2 October 1994
Jerry Lee Dowdy, 50- bludgeoned, 2 October 1994



OHIO
Unidentified gay man- gunshot wounds, 13 October 1992
George S.- bludgeoned, mutilated, 10 January 1993
Eric Farrow (a.k.a. Ashley-Ann Summers)- gunshot wounds, found 20 November 1993

OKLAHOMA
Unidentified gay man, shot, March 1993

OREGON
Hattie Mae Cohens, 25- smoke inhalation due to firebombing, 26 September 1992
Brian Mock, 45- smoke inhalation due to firebombing, 26 September 1992

PENNSYLVANIA
Robert Hagan- throat slashed, found 9 August 1993
Paul Steekman, 47- beaten, 3 April 1994
Robert Harris- strangled, 5 October 1994

RHODE ISLAND
Roger Oliver, 23- beaten, near-decapitation 2 May 1994

SOUTH CAROLINA
Andre Jones, 33- bludgeoned, run over by car, 23 July 1994

TENNESSEE
Unidentified gay man- bludgeoned, 21 July 1994

TEXAS
Jose Rubio- multiple stab wounds, 1 July 1992
*Leopoldo "Paul" Quintanilla, 29- multiple stab wounds, throat and genitals cut, 23 June 1993
Nicholas West, 23- multiple gunshot wounds, 30 November 1993
*Larry Leggett- multiple stab wounds, 25 January 1994
*Joe Trevino, strangled and bludgeoned, 3 March 1994
Michael Benishek- bludgeoned and throat slit, January 1994
Tommy Musick, 48- multiple gunshot wounds, Feubruary 1994
John Anthony Burwell, 26- multiple gunshot wounds, 2 April 1994
Michael Burzinski, 29- gunshot wound to the head, 30 July 1994
Larry David Allen- multiple stab wounds, 18 August 1994

UTAH
Doug Koehler, 31- gunshot wound to the head, 15 August 1993

VIRGINIA
*Unidentified gay man, 27- strangled, 28 June 1993
*Unidentified gay man, 24- strangled, 3 September 1993
Gary Watts, 34- multiple gunshot wounds, 10 June 1994
*Henry Weatherford Jr., 50- shot, 13 June 1994
*Garland LeRoy Taylor, 24- strangled, 17 September 1994
Harold Coon- beaten and stabbed, 17 December 1994

WASHINGTON
Bradley Wantdler- multiple stab wounds, 20 June 1993

WYOMING
Roger Melner, 60s- bludgeoned, fall 1994


* Murder committed or suspected to have been committed by an antigay serial killer.


_Principal_Source_: New York City Anti-Violence Project report, 1994

[CBGLuthier]

85. What I am full of

Is second hand hypocrisy delivered from so-called compassionate people who are as bigoted, tasteles and wiothout class as anyone can be.

And hauling that tired list out as if it is a list of Falwell's victims is just getting a bit old. I hate to think of the megabytes of bandwidth and storage that has taken today.

[Duncan Grant]

101. Whoa. I hope more of the kum-buy-yah crowd reads your post.

bigoted? tasteless? and without class?

There's a big ol' glass house with your name all over it. :freak:

[Madspirit]

105. Wow...dismissing murder

"tired list" You are a shameful human.
Lee

[Louis C. Phurye]

121. Congratulations, you have now become the oppressor.

The cycle is complete.

[Madspirit]

131. Who is it I've killed?

Jerk-off thing to say, utterly stupid and without depth or understanding. ...and :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

...and who is it I've killed? There are over 1200 hate crimes against gays every fucking year.

No Falwells have been killed in the making of these threads. Let me know when you hear about a gay on straight hate crime. What a moronic thing to say.
Lee

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Duncan Grant]

152. That's a cheap shot.

Seriously, telling someone that their "hatred" has consumed them and then posting this? Whoa. Who are you to pathologize someone? The nerve. :eyes:

[Duncan Grant]

153. Oh please.

I'd suggest you have a very subjective view of how the cycle works. Particularly, if your chastising the response to a very dismissive (and callous) post.

[racaulk]

199. Who exactly has Madspirit oppressed?

Please. :eyes:

[DearAbby]

66. Hate is hate

I forgot, I uttered the hitler word, like there is some unspoken law, that no other living human being could ever live up to that man...excuse me.

In my mind, Falwell was another hitler, how do I feel this way? It's personal, he de-humanized people I loved. Made them objects of scorn, an abomination. He used his influence, to prevent FULL CITIZENSHIP RIGHTS for them. Equal protection under the law. If people like Falwell do succeed in making this a theocracy...how far would it go then. No, I wouldnt even put that past them.

Problem is, A hitler is not all that rare.

It has been used recently...dehumanizing people...so you can slaughter them during war.

[LostinVA]

165. No hyperbole at all by that poster

Falwell WAS as bad as Hitler. If he had the means and opportunity, he would have been building "re-education" and concentration camps quicker than spit.

[Orsino]

46. Civil rights before civility.

Let Falwell's disciples hate. Just keep 'em from legislating that hate.

[William769]

48. Falwell Got what he deserved, well almost.

Wait till the maggots get hold of him. Can anyone say 50 course dinner?

[Az]

49. Some points to consider

First let me say I neither mourn his passing nor do I rejoice in his passing. I am relieved that the voice of hatred he represented has been stilled but I would rather it have been stilled by reason rather than death. It is a lost opportunity in my opinion.

But that is just my way. It is not and need not be other people's way.

In many ways Jerry Falwell made his own bed. There was this old Jewish philosopher that supposedly taught this notion that we all ought to treat others as we wish to be treated ourselves. And Falwell pumped quite a bit of hatred and suffering into this world. If I believed in Karma I would suggest that it all came back to him in his death.

For many Jerry Falwell was the key cause for much of the hatred and malicious attitude towards homosexuals in this society. His tirade against Secular Humanists marginalized even more people (amongst whom I count myself). Just because he was a charismatic smiling man does not mean he did not cause hatred and sew social discord. And the damage he did cannot be forgiven by many many people.

[The Backlash Cometh]

52. In today's world, civility is a sign of weakness.

We're a property right's society, babe. The common grounds belong to the most ruthless son of a bitch that wants to take it.

Hey, I didn't make da rules.

[noiretextatique]

58. too bad falwell didn't know about this "civility" thing eom

[Arugula Latte]

59. Here we go again ...

*sigh*

[hunter]

64. That hateful pig fucking self loathing masturbator killed and maimed people dear to me.

It wouldn't have been any different then if he'd driven his party bus full of ignorant freaks directly onto a crowded sidewalk while claiming it was God's will.

He's dead now. Good.

It's best you know the magnitude and the reasons for people's ventings.

Falwell wasn't some misguided Sunday School Teacher who did some bad things. He was a Monster.

Clear enough, dude?

Don't tell me to be civil. I won't be.

[Bluerthanblue]

75. no, to be honest

he didn't-

He didn't actually do it himself- He didn't hire people to do it- and he didn't hold people hostage to accomplish it.

What he DID do, was to stroke and nurture the very feelings you are being controlled by now.- Only he encouraged people to focus their rage on people who didn't merit it. It WOULD have been different if he'd driven his party bus full of "ignorant freaks" directly onto a crowded sidewalk while claiming it was God's will. It would have been easier to point to this specific incident and address it. But instead of actual acts of violence, he planted the seeds of prejudice, and bigotry and sat back and watched as other people carried out their violence upon others feeling 'justified' and 'righteous'- while doing it. THAT to me, is far worse. What Falwell did was to broadcast hate- and it is continuing to grow, and will continue to be harvested.

There is nothing that will make the loss of your loved ones ok. There is nothing that will bring them back- We have to believe there are ways to prevent others from suffering what they did, and to bring all society to a better place. If we can't then all the politics in the world, all the marches, letters, votes, vigils, all the efforts of the committed and advocates for everything 'good' are just a worthless waste of time.

I'm sorry for what you have endured.

peace-
blu

[hunter]

108. I write my words with a cold, clear, precise purpose, Bluerthanblue.

I will not tolerate evil hidden behind a mask of civility.

I mean to express the depth of my anger with posts like the one you responded to; I am not "controlled" by that anger.

If I make people like the original poster uncomfortable, than I have achieved my purpose.

In person I am a gentle soul, but the people who choose to abuse my civility, the people who expect me to remain silent as they spew their hatred, I will call out.

And should they lash out at me, I will turn the other cheek as their fists crumble against my firm standing.

Evil expects us to be afraid, but I will fear no evil.

Jerry Falwell was a cowardly man who feared the devil more than his Lord Maker, and he rotted away from within and became a monster for that.

Now Falwell is dead and the Good Lord has shown this fearful little man the Truth, and for that Jerry Falwell will live in anguish for all eternity.




(Looky that -- I don't often wear my religion on DU, mostly because it distracts from the discussions at hand, but there it is.)

[Bluerthanblue]

110. I'm not going

to keep going on with the Falwell posts.

I thank you for your reply- You speak very well.

I am glad you have refused to be afraid. Personally, I'm more comfortable with fear than I am with anger- but they are closely related from what I've come to understand. Both are emotions that can be very dangerous and deceptive.

I'd like to believe that the "evil" Falwell cultivated died with him. But I don't see it happening-

May we all know peace, and comfort-
May there come a day when discussions such as ours are completely unnecessary-
May we learn how to make that day come as quickly as possible.

peace,
blu

[EFerrari]

120. Go, hunter.

:toast:

[Bluerthanblue]

65. beautifully said,

thank you for this calm lucid statement of truth - I'm happy to recommend.
:hug:
peace,
blu

[ima_sinnic]

69. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? phony BS kissy-face

"civility"--PRETENDING we're not glad a bigoted SOB who made a mint off of hatred, brain-wiped hundreds of thousands, ranted and raved against every group except white republican males and got paid to do so.

You are talking about a phony-@$$ society in which people cannot express any true feelings because they might be "uncivil." Like somebody's feelings might be "hurt" by the truth. And you know what? That would just be too effing bad, because, gee, yeah, the TRUTH HURTS. And WHOSE feelings, exactly, are we supposed to be so caring about, anyway? SHEEEESH!!

So it's okay to say Rush Limbaugh is a big fat walking, talking pile of dog crap, now, while he's alive--but if he dies tomorrow, we better not say anything? because when someone dies they automatically enter some kind of sanctified state where nobody is allowed to say anything bad about him? JUST WHY IS THAT, ANYWAY?

I still have heard no good reason WHY it is not all right to call a spade a spade when someone dies. I have a suspicion that it is rooted in some superstitious crap from the 7th century when "speaking ill of the dead" could induce spells or some such malarkey.

please tell me more about this fantasy-land "civility" crap, because all I see is some phony "etiquette" thing that does nothing except repress people's true feelings. And "god" knows I'm sick of PHONINESS.

The guy was a waste of oxygen and the world is a better place because he's gone. And I KNOW for damn sure I'm not alone in THAT sentiment. Get over it!

[terrya]

70. How civil is it to say that AIDS is God's punishment for gay people?

Now, that's not very civil, is it?

And he never, ever apologized for it.

We were sick, disgusting people to him. His idea of compassion and understanding towards us was to say that we could be cured by joining "ex-gay" groups.

No, I don't think we are under any obligation to be civil to the likes of people like him.

[in_cog_ni_to]

71. CIVILITY WENT OUT THE DOOR WITH THE CLINTON WITCH HUNT! SORRY! They have YEARS

of nastiness coming their way and I, for one, plan to dish it out to them! They don't DESERVE civility after what they've done to this country! They all should be hung by their fingernails for the crimes they've committed! How's THAT for civility?:grr:

NOPE! We tried be good guys and they took advantage of our "civility" and they will NEVER be trusted again!

[Kurovski]

72. Resistance is futile! What you resist, persists!

:D Oh man, I am so going to kick my own thread that disagrees with this.

People are not running around seething. Most of us had our memorial service for Falwell already.

Sir, or ma'am, for I know not which you are--The Poles were pissed-off for generations and THEY finally got their freedom.

Anger and even hate do not derail Democracy. It is right wing movements that derail Democracy. Passivity derails Democracy.

Do you have any idea how angry people were during the American Revolution? Do you know how uncivilly our founders treated one another? Very.

And lord of mercy, but how they fucking hated King George of England.

Here's the BIG SCOOP...Democracy and change do not ever happen WITHOUT anger.

And Right-wingers know that one, inside-out, backward and forward. It's why they spent decades--with Falwell's help--whipping up the emotions. And look where we are. They WON.

The right-wing also knows to keep their opposition in-fighting EACH OTHER as much as possible instead of directing anger toward the right-wing itself.

Anger and discontent, and even rudeness and hate is what will now get the right-wing out of our hair as Americans are increasingly, passionately motivated for change.

(YEGODS!! Do you people realize that "Falwell" is on our spellcheck here? EVIL SPIRIT, BE GONE I SAY!!!)

Here is a counterpoint thread I wrote, if you care to read it:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x901378

[earthlover]

77. selective history....

You forgot to add that Lincoln, after the Civil War, wanted to welcome the South back into the Union "with malice towards none, with charity for all"....

I suppose Lincoln did not help Democracy....ya think?

[Kurovski]

79. Yeah, after 620,000 deaths.

And the south never really completely took him up on that offer.

Anger and hatred for slavery brought the change. it was intolerance that motivated people.

[earthlover]

89. Some quotes from historical figures....

"Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none".
- Benjamin Franklin

"In a time of social fragmentation, vulgarity becomes a way of life. To be shocking becomes more important - and often more profitable - than to be civil or creative or truly original.’’
- Al Gore

"So let us begin anew - remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof" John Fitzgerald Kennedy

[Kurovski]

106. Sincere and civil people get angry too.

They feel hatred for wrongs consciously committed.

They don't go out and kill people and destroy other's rights when they do feel anger. They do not live life from a center of anger.

Gore is not speaking of people who were abused and have legitimate grievances, and understandable human emotions, and are in pain. though I completely doubt that he'd approve of glee expressed at a death.

DU is not the front page of the New York Times. And if Hannity wants to give DU air time, then he better write up a contract so we shlubs can clean up our act for primetime. (not that it matters, because people will come and decide for themselves about DU when Hannity--or anyone else-- makes reference to the board.)

And Benjamin Franklin was a real bitch. No foolin'.

[earthlover]

109. hatred is harmful

Gore was talking about social fragmentation. Seems as if people can't get along. Civic disagrements become wars. I think the internet has magnified this tendency. People say on the internet what they would never dream of saying face to face.

The anti-Falwell people say he is responsible for countless deaths and suicides and compare him to Hitler. The pro-Falwell people say the liberals are responsible for countless abortion deaths and compare that to Hitler. Both sides use the other side to justify hatred.

I don't see any positive result from hatred. Forceful fighting for a cause, yes, but hatred is something quite different. Hatred can consume a person and hurts oneself as well as others. It has been used to "justify" wars, genocides, ethnic cleansing, and a host of social ills. Every religion I believe is against it, yet look how many people have hated in god's name?

Falwell was a hateful man. People on DU should not view his hate as a role model. Hate can always be rationalized against "the other". Hating a hater is to be more like him.

[Kurovski]

117. It's odd, I just came here to share a thought I had regarding Al Gore.

It has to do with finding a leader capable of taking widespread anger and fear and channeling it into positive action. I believe that Al Gore may be the only American leader now conceivably capable of such a thing.

His vision appears to be quite clear these days. That book of his will tell the story I guess.

As for all the rest, we're going to most likely just continue to disagree. I see what you're saying, but I also am saying that I can't convince you of the points that have been made--by many different people on DU as well--about how we believe and think that much of what you say doesn't apply in all cases.

Our beliefs on the matter are too far apart, and I don't think either of us will be changing at this point. :-) But we'll still be thinking about it, I'm certain.

So our travel together here has ended for now. You seem very much to be a sweet, gentle and thoughtful person. I've enjoyed this very much, and thank you.

[Downtown Hound]

115. Ben Franklin huh?

A man who actively took part in the violent overthrow of British rule? Tell me something, if we were to take up arms against the Bush administration, would you be quoting him as to why we shouldn't be doing that?

Not that I'm advocating we do that. I don't think we're at that point yet. But I'm pointing out the fallacy of your argument. You quote Ben Franklin as an example of adhering to this ideal you have of never responding with anger and violence, when in fact he was one of the architects of a war that killed tens of thousands of people. And why did he do this? Simple. HE WAS PISSED OFF. But back then there were plenty of people that opposed him and his fellow revolutionaries, some of them arguing the same things you're arguing.

And Kennedy? Hmm, let's see. The Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, and let's not forget that he faced off with Russia in a showdown that could have destroyed the world during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Yep, there's a guy that always turned the other cheek.

And finally Gore. While he was vice-president, the United States repeatedly bombed Iraq, fought a minor war in Somalia, and bombed Yugoslavia for a month and a half.

I'm not criticizing or praising any of these actions here. That's not the purpose of this post. I believe that all of these men were and are great men in many ways. But they are human, and you quote their words while ignoring their actions. Words are easy to speak, anybody can say them. But even the best of men have done things that could be considered reprehensible or wrong by someone else.

Funny how you would quote these men, who have done far more than just spout off some rage on the internet as the people here are doing, as an example of why we should be more evolved than that.

[earthlover]

156. yes, Ben Franklin

I never said that I didn't support the American Revolution.

But, you might be unaware of your history in at least one respect.

Ben Franklin used his DIPLOMACY powers to persuade the French to aid the American Revolution. Without the help of the French, we might not have won the Revolutionary War.

Golly gee whiz....what would have happened if Ben Franklin got all huffy instead and pissed off the French King because he wasn't democratic enough instead of being civil?

[Downtown Hound]

181. Pretty ridiculous hypothetical there friend,

In the early days of the revolution, people took to the streets of New York and tore down a statue of King George. They also dumped a shitload of tea into Boston Harbor. Were those actions "civil?"

Obviously there is a place for civility, like say, when you're trying to woo a potential ally to come to your aid. But when you are dealing with pure slime like in the case of Falwell, and you get some people that are happy that the pig is gone, just do me a favor and don't lecture me the need to be civil, okay? If King George had suddenly kicked the bucket during the American Revolution, I can pretty much guarantee you that people would have been dancing in the streets. Old Ben himself, who was known to imbibe the brew on more than a few occasions, probably would have cracked a keg open. Now, imagine if there had been someone there that suddenly started complaining and lecturing about the need to be civil at a time like this? Most people probably would have either laughed at him or kicked his ass.

Look, get over it, we're glad Falwell is gone. We're fucking thrilled Falwell is gone. That piece of maggot shit was a blight on humanity. I'm happy. We're happy. End of story, and you're not going to change that. Bye, bye!

[earthlover]

206. civility could have prevented wars

I am getting a LOT annoyed. Yes, Falwell and his ilk were divisive, hateful, and dangerous to our liberties. Nobody is arguing that point.

Some Democrats, including myself, have pointed out that the excesses in the "celebrations" during the day of Falwell's death have been counterproductive, ie, they have helped the radical right instead of hurt it. Because they make us look hateful and do nothing to focus on the hatefulness that Falwell lived for, in fact it distracts attention away from this.

I reiterate if all it was was stating how Falwell's preaching had been hurtful, hateful, etc I don't think any of us would have objected. What HAS drawn some fire was the juvenile ranting of some posts that quite frankly crossed the line and showed beyond doubt that Falwell's crowd does not have a monopoly on hate.

We COULD have been having discussions about Falwell's evil legacy, and how we can confront it. Instead, much of the discussion was between people who just wanted to vent, use profanity, call names, talk about excrement, etc and those who thought this sort of thing was counter-productive before someone is buried.

You go to great lengths trying to talk about the American Revolution. I think the clear implication is to use it to justify the lack of civility in public discourse. You're not going to get me to argue against the American Revolution, and I would not argue against several reform movements during our history either. However, there are essential differences between the American Revolution and our opposition to Falwell's clan.


I DO think civility is essential and history bears this out. How many wars did we get in that could have been avoided with diplomacy? Iraq is the example of this that comes to mind. How many lives could have been spared if Bush had used diplomacy and civility instead of taking the tack that his cause was just and Saddam was as evil-- as we think Falwell is-- and violence was the logical method of action from his view? I think we have reached a point in our society where civility is on a wane, and this hurts all of us. Much of this has been caused by the radical right. However, it is not just the right.

We know this. We know that being uncivil on discussion boards is a problem. That is why there are rules against flaming, etc. I also think it is true that we can be a LOT more effective on discussion boards, and in life in general, by being civil than by being uncivil. Uncivility turns people off, gets them angry, and just raises their defenses instead of leading to dialogue.

[Downtown Hound]

216. There's a time for civility and there's a time for fighting

Being civil towards Falwell and his ilk is a waste of time. It has gotten us nowhere. You can't agree to disagree with people that ultimately want to take your freedom and maybe your life away from you. Do you think that's an exaggeration? Do you realize that these people want to make America a Christian-only nation? That they want to eliminate the Bill of Rights (except for the second amendment), and that in the past they have advocated for the quarantining of AIDS patients, and the castration of gay men? Do you realize that they have had much success in making some of these things happen? If they are not opposed, and OPPOSED HARSHLY AND WITH INCREDIBLE VIGOR, they very well might succeed. God only knows what would happen to people like gays, arabs, pagans, wiccans, free-thinkers, and the like if they do succeed.

You say that by being uncivil towards them we are giving them power. Have you ever considered that by being civil towards them YOU are the one giving them power? You are so worried about what they're going to think of these threads. Who gives a shit what they or anybody else thinks of them? These threads are not that important. Nobody is going to base their decision on who to vote for in 2008 based on a few threads they read on DU, okay? But when you are so worried about what they might think, you are giving them a legitimacy they don't deserve. They are going to hate us no matter what. They already think we are hateful and un-American. Boo fucking who. As someone once said, I've been called worse things by better men.

But whenever one of our own like you speaks out against us then they'll say, well, there's one that's not so crazy. And that only encourages them. It affirms what they already believe. I for one am through giving them that kind of legitimacy. They will never, ever again get me to concede even that one little bit to them. I oppose them with everything I have, and I really don't give a shit what they think of me, because I don't think all that highly of them either.

The time for civility is over. People are dying in the Middle East. Our constitution has been shredded. Gays are still treated as second-class citizens. Our environment is crumbling. Our electoral system is a complete fraud. Now is the time to get aggressive, my friend. The time for nicey-nice is over.

[earthlover]

249. there is a time and place for everything....

I think that the day of someone's death is not the time for dancing on his grave.

You seem to think the electoral system is a complete fraud. OK, you are entitled to your opinion. So I guess that means you are not going to vote or support a candidate?

The constitution is "shredded". Gays are second-class citizens. People are dying in the Middle East.

So you think we need to get "aggressive".

Well, friend, why don't you spell out what you mean by "aggressive"! Do you mean a revolution? Violent protest? A nationwide strike? WHAT?
I know you don't like "nicey-nice" but you gotta be more specific as to what you are advocating.

Come back here on DU and tell us what you want us to do.

Or, here is another idea. Instead of spending time on the internet, why don't you prepare your manifesto, and circulate it door-to-door talking to the citizens of this country.

Let us know what they say....

While you are talking to them about your manifesto ask them what they think about dancing on Falwell's grave before he is buried. I think if you actually talked to some real live citizens instead of preaching to the choir here on DU you might get an earful.

[Downtown Hound]

250. "Tell us what you want to do?"

Look, I'm one the one whining and bitching because some people expressed glee over the fact that a patron of hate died. So don't come and tell me that I need to come up with a comprehensive plan for revolution. What a ridiculous response.

All I'm saying is we don't have to always be so fucking nice. That's it. Period. End of story. And I'm getting really tired of people always saying we have to be so fucking nice. Somehow you took that to mean that I'm single handedly planning the violent overthrow of the U.S. government. No, all I'm saying is that I'm going to tell these fuckers what I really think of them from now on, and I'm not going to hold back. And I have told that to people on the street and I have gotten an earful. And I can give an earful back just as good as I get. And I did. I am not afraid of these people. Now, I'm done with you, Mr. Polyanna. You go and be civil to hate mongers all you want. Don't be too offensive, politely disagree when you can, and live and let live. Be a good boy.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I know that playing nice with these people just doesn't work.

[Zenlitened]

237. What exactly was Mr. Franklin asking the French to provide? Croissants?

Holy fuckin' shit. :crazy: :dunce: :crazy:

He was asking for guns. Warships. Armed confrontation on an empire-spanning scale.

He might even have said some NOT NICE THINGS about the British in making his case.

Horrors!

:rofl:

[earthlover]

248. I think you need to re-read the post you are responding to.

My clear point was that Franklin got much needed help from the French. But if Franklin had acted pissy towards the French because they were not democratic enough, he probably would not have succeeded. And without the French help we might not have won the Revolution.

Now, keep in mind that the French were ruled at the time by a monarchy. A country that not only preached but practiced a form of government even more repressive than that Falwell talked about. So, to spell things out....if Franklin had had the attitude towards the French that many of us have towards Falwell and Franklin got pissy at the king in the same way advocated by some of us on DU towards Falwell et al....well, I doubt very much if the French king would have helped us and our glorious revolution might have floundered.

So sometimes civility is needed. Even to fight a revolution!

[Zenlitened]

256. Fair enough. I appreciate your clarification.

I think Franklin and the French started from a point of shared interests, though, which made dialogue of the sort you seek possible.

In a situation where the dialogue is, by definition, adversarial from the very beginning -- a dialogue between Progressives and Falwell followers, for example -- some difficult truths are bound to be aired.

And that's always going to appear "uncivil" to the hand-wringers of the world, for whom sanctimony seems to be a higher value than confronting and overcoming injustice.

Look at that "meeting" Falwell had with GLBT leaders a few years back. The Fallwellians wouldn't share a meal with the GLBT folks, because their bible says it's wrong to break bread with "sinners." Civility? It wasn't even allowed to enter the room.

So after 30 years of political scheming by Falwell and his crowd, it shouldn't be a surprise that notions of civility are not uppermost on the minds of some folks on a political message board.

True, we might not want to send some of the most emotional DUers -- the folks expressing their pain most vocally -- to the next negotiating table if that that day every comes. But I sure as hell hope we'll send the ones who are willing to speak the plain truth.

Meanwhile, we'll tend to the ones in pain. Not tell them to shut up.

[undergroundpanther]

73. To have civility one needs boundaries

Hurt people venting are angry because a boundary has been violated which is their human rights,their rights as citizens,

Instead of telling victims to shut up
Try listening.Try finding exactly where the injustice was done than when you understand stand by the victims and voice outrage until the haters will not dare break that boundary again.Because if they do they will have hell to pay.

A hater or psychopath sees everything as a zero sum game as in what kind of hurtful shit can I get away with?
psychopaths are not concerned about morality or civility they just want to do what they want and not be accountable for it.

We gotta make these uncivil assholes accountable for the hate they spew and they won't be held accountable for it while we silence victims who know where the boundaries have been violated because THEY were hurt.If bystanders are encouraged to tolerate the intolerable and pretend to play nice this shit people like Falwell do will NEVER end..Civility requires a contract that we all share the same boundary.People like falwell are social boundary breakers in a BAD sense.
That is why the people who got their boundaries trampled by him and his followers are pissed.

[DearAbby]

76. It is not like

people are making up a vigilante, or rioting in the streets.

NO ACTUAL PEOPLE WERE HARMED with the venting of people here on DU, No people were harmed, by a font on a computer screen.

I doubt Falwell's family visits DU. and those who thought Falwell spoke for them...are not likely to vote Democratic anyway...I do see the good, It has been a long time coming, the weight of it has lifted. I feel renewed in my purpose.

Our job is not over, just a brief resprite.

[Madspirit]

80. We are sick and tired

We are sick and tired of our anger being dismissed. We have every right to be angry. ...and yet, when have YOU ever heard of a gay on straight hate crime? Huh? I can't hear you. WHEN? All we've done is vent.
Let me know when you hear about a gay on straight hate crime. Let me know when you hear about a bunch of gays tying some straight boy to a fence, after beating him to a bloody pulp and then leaving him there to die.

IF YOU'RE NOT ANGRY, YOU'RE NOT LISTENING.
Lee

[Louis C. Phurye]

127. Gay Man Kills Woman In Religious Dispute

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/2983

Gay Man Kills Woman In Religious Dispute
GAY.COM/PlanetOut.com Network
Wednesday 20 November, 2002 10:06 | More from this date | Today's headlines

A gay Chicago-area man stands accused of killing a woman who allegedly tried to persuade him to change his sexual orientation.

Police arrested Nicholas Gutierrez, 19, on Saturday after he confessed and the body of Mary Stachowicz, 51, was found in a crawl space beneath his apartment. He has been charged with first-degree murder, attempting to conceal a homicide and burglary, according to a Chicago Tribune report.

Authorities said Gutierrez made a videotaped confession, admitting that he became enraged during a conversation with Stachowicz because her questioning of his sexuality reminded him of debates with his mother.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Louis C. Phurye]

136. Excuse me? I've killed people?

So, you are saying it was OK for that man to kill that woman because he was gay and she was a religous zealot?

[Madspirit]

139. No. No I did not say that

Radical interpretation of the text. I said it does not, under law or psychology, add up to THE definition of a hate crime.

...but there is a group called Pink Pistols...that arms gay people. You can't bash an armed queer.

Lee

[Louis C. Phurye]

140. You said that I killed people.

You better have some pretty solid facts before you go around accusing people of murder. You seriously might find yourself on the wrong end of a libel case. I'm not kidding.

[Madspirit]

142. hahahhaha

You're right. I said people like you kill people. They do. ...and libel? *snort* I'm unemployed and own nothing. Go for it.

My name is Lee Hillhouse. I live in Austin. Run. Run like the wind. Sue the unemployed who owns nothing...haha
Lee

[Louis C. Phurye]

143. Who am I?

You know nothing about me. From my profile you can see that I'm male. You know nothing else about me. who are "people like me"?

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Louis C. Phurye]

145. What about Aileen Wuornos?

[Madspirit]

146. Why oh Why

Do you keep bringing up severely mentally ill people? Jeeeesus...you really don't get it. That woman was sick sick sick sick. Really, run like the wind and google "hate crimes". It is very specific. It is not about the pathologically ill. It wasn't sick people who killed Matthew Sheppard. You are definitely my enemy.
Lee

[Louis C. Phurye]

149. Relax, I'm not trying to be your enemy.

I just thought the grave dancing was a little excessive. You don't think so, that is fine, I can look beyond that. Which I guess is really the message I guess I'm trying to say, why be consumed with so much hate for a vile excuse of a human being like Jerry Falwell? He doesn't deserve your attention, and especially since he is dead, he is now irrelevent. Then you challenged me to find a gay on straight hate crime. Sorry, I can't let a challenge go, it's my nature. Of course gay on straight crime is going to exist, granted there hardly any cases. And as you said those that do are questionable. Concern yourself with Jerry Falwel's sons who are alive and who are no doubt going to continue in the hate filled rhetoric. Not your enemy. see ya around.

:-)

[Madspirit]

154. Olive Branch back at you....n/t

[LostinVA]

177. There is no grave dancing -- I'm sooo tired of that meme

[spoony]

212. You are so obviously in error that I can

only think you fell asleep on the keyboard and accidentally posted that. No grave-dancing? Lol...

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Madspirit]

141. You Can't Bash an Armed Queer!

"The opportunity to be threatened, humiliated and to live in fear of being beaten to death is the only 'special right' our culture bestows on homosexuals."
- Diane Carman, Denver Post


"Thirty-one states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "
--Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

We did. There are now over 35 Pink Pistols chapters nationwide, and more are starting up every day. We are dedicated to the legal, safe, and responsible use of firearms for self-defense of the sexual-minority community. We no longer believe it is the right of those who hate and fear gay, lesbian, bi, trans, or polyamorous persons to use us as targets for their rage. Self-defense is our RIGHT.

The Pink Pistols get together at least once a month at local firing ranges to practice shooting, and to acquaint people new to firearms with them. We will help you select a firearm, acquire a permit, and receive proper training in its safe and legal use for self-defense. The more people know that members of our community may be armed, the less likely they will be to single us out for attack. Join us today. It is your RIGHT.



http://www.qrd.org/qrd/www/RRR/rrrpage.html


_____________________________
If the apocalypse comes, beep me.
Buffy
_____________________________

[Duncan Grant]

155. One example compared to the hundreds of crimes by straight people against gays.

When gay people start ambushing (and beating) random straights who dare to congregate at a small town bar -- then we'll talk.

Yeah, that gay on straight crime sure is alarming. :eyes:

[sniffa]

183. but but but

sLippery sLope, speciaL rights, murka damnit, don't touch my guns.

[LittleClarkie]

81. Well, it's not a matter of allowing or not allowing really

I'm puzzled by your use of that word in particular.

Those who react a certain way have a right to. And those who think that reaction is uncool have a right to say their peace as well.

It's the belittling of both sides by both sides, which I too have been guilty of (and I'm sorry for), that I find most distasteful. The majority opinion seems to be that there is nothing much wrong with celebrating the death of Falwell. But those of us who find this distasteful are not morally questionable, nor too affluent to understand the plight of the oppressed, or what not.

I just wish we'd stick to discussion behaviors without getting so personal. If I find certain behaviors a problem, that doesn't mean I'm aiming at the person behind those behaviors necessarily.

[sheerjoy]

84. Betty Bowers of all people....

http://www.bettybowers.com/nl_may2007.html

[Kurovski]

111. Here's a taste...

"Verily, I am crying as I type. You can imagine my shock in hearing that Reverend Jerry Falwell had been found dead, lying in a pool of his own gravy."

It's titled "All's Well That End's Falwell". However I think she could have done without that apostrophe in "ends".

Not sure, though.

[Crunchy Frog]

147. "Frankly, I blame the homosexuals, abortionists, liberals, feminists -- and Hormel

-- for Mr. Falwell's death. The Lord apparently lifted His mercurial veil of protection, saw how truly hideous this obese con artist had become and slapped the self-serving glutton into a place where his self-aggrandizing wickedness would go relatively unnoticed. After all, to Jerry, Hell will be any place without media attention -- and a buffet." :rofl:

[Kurovski]

150. It's the most delicious eulogy ever created.

:-)

[sheerjoy]

159. Haha I figured

many would enjoy her eulogy...ohwell....life goes on

ROTFLMAO.......


http://i.euniverse.com/funpages/cms_content/13180/HillaryCondi_HoDown.swf

[Downtown Hound]

86. You want to know what's really not being addressed?

The fact that we have a mother fucking right to be angry. I'm sick and tired of always being told I have to be a fucking saint in the face of vile, putrid, murderous evil. If you want to respond to this with a great big group hug, be my guest. But don't presume you have the right to tell me how to act. My anger has given me power during the course of these insane and murderous years of the right wing's leadership. I honor my anger. I honor my hate. In fact, I'm grateful to them both, because they have kept me sane. Don't think I don't hear you if you say you want to respond to hatred with love. I do hear you, and that's your choice, and I respect that. What pisses me off is when people like you develop this air of moral superiority over those of us that don't. My feelings are just as valid as yours, so do me a big favor and spare me the big "let's get together and try and love one another right now" speech, okay?

I don't want to love these people. I will never want to love these people. And that is my right. Respect that, and I will respect your right to love them as you choose, in spite of the fact that they are the biggest pieces of shit on the planet.

[motocicleta]

92. I wish I could recommend your reply,

and anti-recommend this thread.

[Maven]

94. What he said.

:kick:

[Raksha]

102. I totally agree with you! I can totally understand taking the high road

and not returning hatred for hatred...IF that is what you truly feel and want to do. There are perfectly valid reasons for that approach, and the fact that I don't share that feeling (not in this particular context, or at least not yet) doesn't mean I don't know what they are. Hatred is a very corrosive emotion, after all, and usually does more damage to the person feeling it than to its object. I say that from personal experience, having felt a good deal of anger and hatred in my life. It is so exhausting to feel that way I have no doubt it would kill me if it kept on for any length of time.

That said, however...what I absolutely CANNOT understand, much less sympathize with, is this compulsion some people have to wag their fingers and tell others how they "should" feel, or how they express their feelings. What is that all about? Don't other people have just as much right to their feelings as the "high road" types? Don't they have the right to express those feelings? Or are they supposed to be hypocrites and repress their true feelings?

It's hard to imagine how/why anyone would have the gall to advocate hypocrisy on DU, or why they'd expect anything but a reaction if they do.

[Morereason]

184. I just don't see how we are going to bring about a just society without changing

I understand the anger. It is human. And as I have said on this board you can be angry *and* civil.

The kind of anger we see in America is learned. We have learned it as our society has corroded. You see it in every aspect of society. We are competitive and darwinistic, even in the workplace with people we should be in solidarity with.

What I see too often on DU boards does not give me hope. It makes me wonder if we win this "fight", what kind of society we will build.

Unfortunately the violent often win, that is what happened in the Russian revolution. There were several socialist movements. The one that was willing to annihilate the other to take over is the one that won, and went on to build a society that perpetuated injustice.

[LostinVA]

166. EXCELLENT!

[mondo joe]

174. Bravo. I'm not here to join some fucking abused-victims-club.

Thank you!

[spoony]

210. Neither are the rest of us, so why do we have to

tiptoe around all of the "venting" that swamps the forum and makes it look like a haven for ghouls, without offering up a word of protest without being called killers, nazis, etc.

[mondo joe]

225. There's nothing ghoulish about rejoicing in the passing of your persecution.

Just FYI.

[Left Is Write]

87. The objections are being heard. Just because others disagree doesn't mean

they don't "hear."

Anger is anger. People who have angry, bitter feelings are better off venting them here where they can blow off steam than stuffing those feelings and having them explode in other ways. That is what is destructive, not venting anger in the first place.

The wounds Falwell caused run harsh and deep. Let people react as they will. I don't understand why some DUers seek to control and direct others' reactions and responses to the man's death. Must everyone sublimate their anger and frustration?

Give people some time.

[GoneOffShore]

88. Yes it is, and he was never civil about us.

Sometimes tolerance equals complicity.

[Malikshah]

90. Civility does not mean ignoring evil. So with all due respect

think about what you're calling for and what you are accusing others of.

Destructive anger? What a vile accusation.

Your message appears to be nothing more than self-righteous and superficial.

Do look up the word civility and then see where it applies to those who are justifiably pleased that a blight on humanity is no longer among us.

Ignoring the impact that Falwell had on humanity and calling for "civility" is to compound the pain.

You ignore that impact and turn your back on the deaths of thousands.

Shame on you.

[Raine]

91. I miss civility in our society

as if things weren't bad enough treating each other in rude disrespectful ways makes everything worse. I've tried to refrain from uncivil responses regarding Falwell. While I honestly won't say I'm not one bit sorry he's gone I think I've managed to hold back the worst of my impulses to get really nasty. Restraint is not easy but it can be a character building exercise in each of us....I agree with you.

[Maven]

93. You shouldn't have bothered.

Really. We have plenty of pollyannas already.

[Bluebear]

96. Cluck, cluck, cluck. nt

[baldguy]

99. If you're forced to have dinner with Hannibal Lecter, do you expect him to be civil?

Or do you expect him to try to eat your liver?

Same with people like the beast Falwell. Civility is a two-way street; the history of conservative incivility toward those they can't control is the fuel that drives celebrations of his death.

[Chovexani]

113. To go way off the subject

Hannibal Lecter's a very urbane and polite fellow, and a consummate host. If you look at who he killed and why, it was because they were boorish, ignorant, rude and generally boils on the ass of humanity. In other words, Falwell.

(Sorry, I'm a bit of a Thomas Harris fangirl and I couldn't resist. :silly:)

[Marr]

100. Bullshit. And frankly,

I think that if you can urge others to show respect for a religious huckster like Jerry Falwell- a charlatan who made a career out of spreading hatred and infecting our system of government with relgious fundamentalism- well, I think you're contributing to our problem.

We don't need more civility from the left. We don't need more polite avoidance of uncomfortable facts. We need more people standing up and calling things what they are, and Jerry Falwell was a self-glorifying religious fraud who did alot of damage to this country and to the world.

[ima_sinnic]

104. what you said!

:kick: :kick:

[Chovexani]

103. 'K, Yoda.

Meanwhile, here in a place called Reality, people vent their emotions and are Healthy.

So, in conclusion:

[earthlover]

112. venting?

Seems an odd way to "vent" by dancing on someone's grave while the body is still warm. Pretty self-defeating too, since it is more likely to provoke sympathy for the dead and contempt for the dancer among most impartial observers.

Might I suggest aerobics? Jogging? Maybe going out into the country and yelling "Falwell Sucks" ten times?

Throwing a temper tantrum is also venting. Tantrums at least do not strenthen the religious right like dancing on Falwell's grave does.

So, please, just throw a temper tantrum already.

It's venting....

[Chovexani]

123. I'm not really sure how much more we can explain

When People in the Real World (as opposed to the saintly Jedis of earthloverland) are upset, and filled with righteous and wholly justified anger, they're not really concerned about who might pass judgment on them, whether it be mouth-breathing freepers or the self-righteous pearl-clutching set on DU. When a cabbie runs over my foot in Midtown Manhattan, I'm going to scream bloody murder and will likely use the word "motherfucker" a few times, probably in reference to him. Because I'm hurt. I'll go to the hospital and get my foot looked at and once the Vicodin kicks in, I'll feel better. The next cab I ride in, I'll probably give the driver a tip.

Of course, that's when the cabbie isn't actively trying to kill me and everyone I love, and influencing the millions who pay attention to him, or live and work with those who do, to do the same. (Though, after being born and raised in NY, I'm not quite sure of that...on second thought, maybe this was a bad metaphor.)

Because no one (self-included, apparently) seems to be able to explain this in words, I'm just going to post another amusing cat picture. :)

[Puglover]

173. You OWE me

a new keyboard. Mine is now dripping with spewed coffee.

[LostinVA]

167. NOBODY is dancing on anyone's grave -- I am so tired of this meme

[Bluerthanblue]

218. and nobody

is showing all this love for dead Jerry-

I'm tired of this too- but we obviously need to learn something here-

I must have missed a lot of posts-

[highplainsdem]

116. K&R. And thank you.

[EFerrari]

118. Who died and made you Jerry Falwell?

lol (That was a joke, in part)


Reality is often uncivil. And I will not commit the Reagan Error again.

This man was poison to our culture and he incited homophobia and racism. You go cuddle up with James Dobson and comfort his spawn -- who are no doubt this moment trying to capitalize on their father's death.

We do no good by silently standing by and allowing these hate mongers to be deified. In fact, we do a lot of harm by failing to speak truth when it counts.

If that's "uncivil" of me, so be it. I'd rather be an accurate memory than a "civil" collaborator.

There are things that are worth making waves for. Like human rights, like equality, like democracy -- everything this POS held in contempt and made a bundle subverting.

[tyedyeto]

125. Rotflmao

Spot on!!

To the OP: when was he ever civil about women's issues, gay issues, etc?

If he had been, then perhaps the remarks seen on this site would not have been so crude.

Sorry sfexpat, I agree with you but had to point out to the OP the man was a cretin.

[EFerrari]

128. Oh, go ahead, laugh. I'm used to it.

lol

[tyedyeto]

132. I just loved your subject line above...

Why can't I think that quick? This old brain just doesn't think that fast anymore. Too much living with the AZ old fogies, I suspect. LOL

So, I have to commend you for a witty response to the OP.

:applause:

[Madspirit]

137. I wuv you...

Your posts and your support...you are GREAT.

You do owe me a keyboard for spewing coffee after reading your "subject" line.
Lee

[cboy4]

122. Ironic that the word "civility" is being used to discuss

this horrible human being's death.

[philosophie_en_rose]

124. It's not about civility. It's about enabling.

It's about the self-proclaimed morally superior telling people how to feel, while enabling the evil they allegedly fight with their nicey niceness.

[earthlover]

157. restraint not enabling

Get a grip. The people you are chiding are Democrats.

Nobody is talking about enabling Falwell or the right. The only point I see them making is that dancing on a still fresh grave HELPS the right, not hurts it. It might make you feel good to vent, but if it winds up helping the right, isn't that more enabling than keeping quiet for two or three days and then resuming the fight? Nobody on these boards has said we should give up our fight of the right. The most any of us has said is be respectful before someone is buried. ANd some of you not only are getting pissed at Falwell, you send some of your pissiness towards fellow Democrats who urge restraint. Good thing you weren't in battle with Jackson when he said not to fire until you can see the whites of their eyes!

[Morereason]

189. Divide an conquer?

It is amazing all the harsh comments toward me. Being accused of being a sympathizer, etc. Actually I am quite active, probably more active than most of the posters here, and have had a fair impact in promoting progressive values.

In history, progressives have killed other progressives just as religious fundamentalists have fought others in their own faith. In fact, throughout history the ones who have done the best job at turning anger into violence have often won. And gone on to perpetuate misery.

I have hope that the worldwide movement that is currently occurring can break that mold, but it won't happen unless people change their way of thinking.

[BlooInBloo]

129. The cause of civility has been immeasurably aided by Falwell's death. Rejoice!

[Crunchy Frog]

130. WE MUST HAVE A PLACE FOR CIVILITY

But a highly partisan internet message board is not it.

If you think this sort of venting should not be allowed on DU, then you should contact Skinner with your suggestions as to how he should run his message board. The other alternative, of course, is to start your own board. It could be sort of a liberal-Democratic, but with no partisan nastiness board. It's not like there aren't already lots of DU spinoff boards. If there's a niche for that sort of board, then you might be just the person to provide the platform for it.

I will not be joining you there, however. However inappropriate you think it may be, I am absolutely furious about what's going on in this country. Maybe you don't think anger is useful or productive, but I think it is. Anger is a way for us to realize that something is not right, and to marshal the energy to do something about it. And who the fuck do think is talking about having a Soviet style "angry" revolution here!!!???

Maybe you should find a place where you can be all lovey dovey, but leave the rest of us alone to just be our angry, messy, human selves. When people who have constant access to mass media are calling you a traitor and suggesting you should be sent to Gitmo for your views, anger is a natural and healthy reaction.

Not Reccomending.

[Morereason]

190. Crunch, read all my comments please.

I have said many times that you can be angry and civil. I am not talking about "venting".

[Crunchy Frog]

205. Well, you know. Sometimes when I'm angry, I don't feel like doing it in a civil fashion.

I still contend that internet message boards are not the place to go when you're looking for civility. If you don't believe me, stick around here for when the primaries really heat up.

[Madspirit]

134. Concern Trolls

Also, notice how mean and nasty the holier-than-thou finger-waggers are. That part cracks me up. I actually showed some of those posts to my shrink. She cracked up too. "THEY are the high-roaders with all that spewing bile at true victims?" That is actually what she said. They remind me of the RW "Family Values" folks...preaching about other people's nasty behavior while totally lacking in depth or compassion or empathy, etc.
Lee

[Morereason]

192. Interesting Therapist

Sounds like you need to get a new therapist. I don't know who's posts you are talking about, but there is nothing in my posts that is "spewing vile" at all. If you discussing my posts, which you replied to, I think there are a couple of words you need to teach your therapist, namely "displacement" and "Projection".

If you are talking of another poster. Most of the people here are on your side more than you are willing to admit, even those that disagree with the way folks are expressing themselves.

[spoony]

211. Lol, look at who's chirping about OTHER people being

mean and nasty. Well I guess you'd know, wouldn't you?

[alittlelark]

148. Your post sounds so similar to this one!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x911746#912071

Spacing between sentences, 'giving us' all the right ?'s

Low post#'s..... hmmmm


"we need to be above all this....."
"We're better than this...."
"I thought DU was better than this....."
"Why are you all obscessing...."
"Why are you being so mean...."


Low post#'s long time members.

'High Traffic' times on DU bring out certain posters.

[Tarheel_Dem]

193. I'm glad you said it...cause we're all thinking it....

They only come out for certain "events". :hi:

[Sapphocrat]

151. "Destructive anger"...

...is shooting two men to death as they sleep in their bed, and saying the only thing you're sorry for is that you didn't inspire more people to emulate you -- since, after all, you're not guilty of a crime, but only of "obeying the laws of the Creator." (1)

"Destructive anger" is killing three people and injuring 150 more by bombing abortion clinics, lesbian bars, and the Olympics, because Jesus would condone "militant action in defense of the innocent." (2)

"Destructive anger" is murdering at least 11 people, most of them gay, because "According to the Bible, homosexuals must die because they will never enter the kingdom of God." (3)

Where do you think people get such ideas? Who do you think "inspires" them?

Preachers who teach that satanism, Nazism, and homosexuality all go together? (4)

Preachers who teach that "God hates fags," and that God is killing U.S. soldiers in Iraq because America tolerates homosexuals (oh, and by the way, "Thank God for IEDs!")? (5)

Preachers who teach that killing abortion providers is "justifiable homicide," and that "sodomy is a graver sin than murder"? (6)

Preachers who teach that gays, lesbians, abortionists and other "sinners" were personally responsible for 9/11? Or that AIDS is not God's punishment for homosexuals, but "for the society that tolerates homosexuals"? Or who warns that "If we do not act now, homosexuals will own America"? (7)

"Pro-family," "pro-life" organizations (8) that continue to perpetuate the ravings of a universally-discredited psychologist (9) who advocates castration for all gay men? And tattooing, forced quarantine, and banishment to Molokai for all AIDS patients? And who once opined: "'Unless we get medically lucky, in three or four years, one of the options discussed will be the extermination of homosexuals"?

Religious leaders who call gay people "objectively disordered" and "intrinsically evil"? (10)

Preachers, syndicated columnists, and TV and radio commentators who insist that there is no such thing as a "hate crime," and that it is in fact the Christians who are being persecuted... by "the gays"? (11) That "homosexual activists" are doing to "people of faith" the very same thing "Hitler began to build against the Jews"? (12)

The day Ellen DeGeneres brainwashes millions of gay people to into believing that heterosexuals are an immoral, degenerate, biologically-inferior subspecies whose very existence is a threat to the salvation of our souls -- and when heterosexuals start losing their jobs, their homes, their civil rights, and their lives because of it -- then you can lecture me about "destructive anger."

Nobody killed Jerry Falwell. But Jerry Falwell killed millions of us -- without spilling a single drop of blood on his own hands. His legacy is not one of faith, but of "destructive anger" and death -- and it is a legacy which will last long after my bones, and yours, and the bones of your grandchildren, have turned to dust.

Until you understand that, you will never understand why many of us were relieved upon awakening two mornings ago to discover a world we were no longer forced to share with the one man responsible for coalescing such a diverse group of hysterical haters into a vast, indomitable force, for giving them an unassailable excuse for hating us, and for inspiring so many to dominate us, persecute us, beat us, murder us, drive us out of our homes, and attempt to legislate us out of existence.

You know nothing about "destructive anger."


1) Benjamin Williams
2) Eric Rudolph
3) "Railway Killer" Angel Maturino Resendiz
4) Pat Robertson
5) Fred Phelps
6) Fr. David Trosch
7) Jerry Falwell
8) Family Research Council, American Family Association, Focus on the Family, Concerned Women for America, NARTH, Claremont Institute, Colorado for Family Values, Traditional Values Coalition, and many others
9) Dr. Paul Cameron
10) Pope Benedict XVI
11) Far too many to list
12) Rev. Lou Sheldon

[LostinVA]

168. BRAVA! BRAVA! BRAVA!

Start this as a thread -- please.

[Duncan Grant]

178. I agree with lostinva -- your post deserves its own thread.

Thanks, Sapph. This is greatest page material. :applause:

[Puglover]

180. As usual Saph

BRILLIANT!

Hey MOREREASON. I'm eagerly awaiting your response here. Please I'm curious what you have to say here.

[EFerrari]

186. What you said and so well, Sapphocrat. n/t

[Tarheel_Dem]

188. Sapph....that was beautiful.....EOM

[noiretextatique]

197. i'm late in chiming in

but i had to give a big :yourock: for that post.

[racaulk]

198. Absolutely brilliant, Sapphocrat!

I agree with other replies in this subthread, you should start this as a new thread in GD. Thank you, thank you, a million times thank you for posting this!

:yourock:

[tavalon]

169. Well, it IS more civil.......

now that Falwell is pushing up daisies.

[GeorgeGist]

175. Learn: Falwell was a force of evil

Understand: Falwell and his admirers deserve contempt.
Love: The truth.

[dogday]

176. Live by the sword and die by the sword

Jerry F. spent his entire life bad-mouthing everyone who did not see things his way.. I would say he gets what he served up in life... It is called Karma....

[NaturalHigh]

179. Well stated...

but I suspect your post will fall on deaf ears here. Some people are having too much fun dancing about Falwell's death.

[bleedingheart]

182. In the name of Civility...Good Men will do nothing in the face of evil..

I am a cynic by nature...and to be honest I think Edmund Burke's statement below

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

is very true.

Civility may have its place but it should never shackle those who would call out true evil.

An evil man is dead and to try and promote civility for a man who never demonstrated any himself is just hypocrisy.

[hfojvt]

187. "good manners, good morals, good night"

A Vonnegut essay where he commented on the difference between himself and the hippie war protestors. He could have dinner with the secretary of defense and engage in polite conversation, whereas the war protestors would not be able to meet with such a person without spitting in his face or pouring a bucket of blood on him.

But he says in another essay, that using foul language, cussing, just gives people an excuse to ignore what you are trying to say. Uncivil behaviour does the same thing. It distracts from and discredits the message. Especially if you are preaching a message of tolerance and peace and kindness and understanding, it seems a bit hypocritical.

[chaska]

191. Fuck this shit. To everything there is a season. It's time for gathering stones.

[Morereason]

195. Yes lets stone folks..? Isn't that what they do in the middle east?

Of course you are not wanting to stone these women, but who are you going to stone?

[stirlingsliver]

194. Fuck Civility! It's A Tool For The Powerful

Fuck civility!

"Civility" is a word the powerful and privileged use to keep the powerless "in our place".

I, for one, will NOT be civil when it comes to hate-mongers and powerful men like Jerry Falwell.

[magellan]

196. CIVILITY GETS YOU NOTHING BUT RUN OVER BY SAVAGES!!!

Ask Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid! They know all about letting the savages run them over!!!

[Morereason]

200. Seems to be confusion... Civility.. Not PASSIVITY

They are quite diffent

[magellan]

201. Sorry, I'm just mad as a wet hen at the moment

Best to ignore me. I'll try to refrain from interrupting further threads with my furious splurges.

[spoony]

213. ...said the Vikings...

[mitchtv]

202. No Recommendation fro me

Don't confuse Sheer Joy with anger and Hatred. Falwell is in Hell, ehre he belongs. I for one, am happy about it

[nickgutierrez]

203. A just society does not occur because of civility.

Civility occurs because there is a just society, on some level. When you talk about civility, in reference to the fact that a vicious thug who would actively promote an unjust society when it comes to non-whites, gays, atheists, and other people that aren't like him, you miss the point. Completely.

Falwell should not be respected, any more than he respected those he demonized.

[Warren DeMontague]

204. Ah, another expression of concern.

Thank you for your concern. Your concerns have been noted. It's nice to see so many concerned posters showing up to express their concern. You know, we got an awful lot of this sort of helpful expression of concern right before the 2006 election... Afterwards, with a few notable exceptions, we've sort of had a dearth of concern. A veritable concern shortage. But now, with any luck, it will rain down from the heavens again, like manna.

So it's nice to see such heartfelt concern expressed here, once again. Thanks for showing up to help out!

...

:eyes:

[Common Sense Party]

207. You're wasting your breath. DUers gravedance on anyone with

whom they disagree. Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, Jerry Falwell.

It's all the same.

It's SOP here. You'll get used to it.

[EFerrari]

208. What utter crap. n/t

[Common Sense Party]

214. What part is "crap"? Did, or did not, DUers gleefully cheer

at the deaths of Reagan and Ford?

[EFerrari]

217. You must be reading another DU. n/t

[Common Sense Party]

222. Riiiiight.

People here have far too much class, no?

[spoony]

209. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

Consider this my k and r anyway

[devilgrrl]

215. Someone who finds the need to use the word "reason" in their username is most likely full of shit

Get off your high horse you twit.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

219. I can do nothing but fully agree

with the fact that one can be angry and yet civil, there is no reason for hatred, tho i also have two questions for the rest.

1: I read a number using 'self defense' as a reason to be hate Falwell, just how is he forcing himself upon you?

2: I see a lot of people stating they need to 'fight' Falwell as a reason as well, could anybody explain what they 'gain' by beating on a corpse that can't fight back?

And since i saw a jedi comment above, two quotes:

Jedi code:
There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.

Sith code:
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

As a long term lurker i'm fairly sad to see how many are falling into the second code after being used to seeing them rather valiant defenders of the first in ways of behavior and reasoning(not that i care to much about star wars, but i have always liked those two codes)

[Bluebear]

220. 'just how is he forcing himself upon you?' You just have no clue, do you?

Do you know the hate and prejudice he has wrought on gay people? Do you know the political machine that he started continues to oppress people and will continue to do so for years to come?

Please, if you have lurked so long I wish you would have learned something along the way about the "moral majority".

[Bodhi BloodWave]

221. Clue or no clue

I see no justification behind a claim of 'self defense' to speak/write hatred, to me that cheapens the meaning of self defense

If you want to defeat hatred and prejudice then the use of common sense, logic, and reason are a lot more effective weapons then adopting your enemies weapon of hatred.

Hatred against hatred only fuels more hatred, welcome to keeping his views alive rather then working to defeat it.

[Duncan Grant]

223. I've talked about self-defense. Maybe you're referencing me?

I'm the guy who said:

I still believe that the anger of GLBT people is healthy -- it's self-defense, it's a tool to reclaim personal power, it's a creative engine used in the face of an entire culture who is complicit in oppressing GLBT people. Why so many here are enablers in the face of such an injustice is beyond me!

Please note: I didn't say hate or hatred. Some here conveniently confuse hate and anger.

Until you take the oppression of GLBT people -- and the implicit agreement of our society that GLBT people are indeed second-class citizens -- as literally as you do self-defense, then I don't know what to say to make you understand what complicity and enabling mean to me.

Seeing that you're so committed to the values of the Jedi, please accept my personal invitation to join me and my GLBT brothers and sisters on the front lines in our pursuit of justice. Please bring your effective weapons of common sense, logic and reason! We're waiting for you.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

224. I have no quarrel with you

or your stance, actually i applaud it. Anger can be healthy used in a proper and responsible way(yes i do believe one can do that).

I'll admit that my knowledge of the US society is limited to a 3 month visit and what i read in the papers and on-line(Norwegian here). That aside i do agree that the classification of GLBT people as second-class citizens us wrong and i would be honored to accept the invitation.

My question tho was directed to those talking about self defense while speaking hatred, not healthy anger as you do (not only what was stated in this thread as there has been many of them)

And my stance would fall closer to the Sith then Jedi mainly because that i believe one can be passionate and that i value freedom, the hatred part i disagree with but thats not really in the Sith code itself(it does however let you justify it if you want to use it)

A number on this topic(not thread) seem to combine both the passion and hatred which i see as a bad move

[Duncan Grant]

240. I haven't seen the "self-defense" posts you're addressing.

What I have seen is the words "hate" and "anger" being used interchangeably. That has truly muddied the waters around here.

I would agree with you that hatred and aggression together are always a bad move.

I value the international members of DU, I hope you'll enjoy posting here as much as I do. Welcome! :hi:

edit: spelling

[Bodhi BloodWave]

244. muddled is an accurate term i think

I will likely not be posting to much as i kinda like being an observer

I'm actually a bit surprised i've posted as much on this thread as i have(i've likely posted more here then in total since the day i registered :P)

Considering i enjoy reading this forum as much as i do(its the first place i tend to log onto when i wake up, meaning within a minute or two of so doing) i'm quite sure i will enjoy posting here if i don't return to being a lurker again

And thanks for the welcome :pals:

[earthlover]

251. are you familiar with Soul Force?

Soul Force is an organization that has fought for gay rights, was founded by Mel White who has a long association of combat with Falwell ....anyhow, Soul Force has been a veteran in in fighting Falwell face to face in the trenches. If anyone knows Falwell and the depth of Falwell's wrong position on homosexuality it is Mel White and Soul Force.

For an article, http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idarticle=9449

Two things stand out. One, in spite of the fact that Soul Force has more experiencing fighting Falwell in real life than probably anyone on this board....Mel White expressed a very CIVIL reaction to Falwell's death.

If anyone here wants to paint Mel White as anti-gay, remember that he is not only gay, but has devoted his life to fight for gay/lesbian/cross gender rights and specifically against Falwell in his home town.

Secondly, and this is quite an irony, and a side light. Because Falwell met with Soul Force, there is now a super conservative wacko group that is going to protest Falwell at Falwell's funeral. Imagine that....Falwell's funeral being protested because Falwell had too much discussion with gays! The irony of that is immense. I predict that they will do damage to their own cause because being uncivil during a funeral is not going to go over well with most normal people. But what do I know?

In any case, I think it important to point out that many gays are indeed civil towards Falwell, even though they wish he did not go into his grave on the wrong side of this issue.

[mondo joe]

226. While you enoy your Star Wars philosophy, the real world goes on, and it has real villains.

And they're not the people who are happy Falwell died.

[philosophie_en_rose]

228. Philosophically speaking, should anyone not be happy that he died?

Didn't he claim to live his life to reach some sort of heavenly reward?

Finally, he'll see if he's right.

[mondo joe]

230. Indeed. And being happy he died isn't like being happy he was tortured. Death - especially a

death like his - is often a very natural part of life. It needn't be a mystified occasion for the suspension of honesty.

If he's been raped and beat to death, I'd say it would be very wrong to take pleasure in it. But death alone, absent some vile cause or compounding factor, isn't a tragedy.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

234. Agreed to some degree

But on the same note, why take the 'pleasure' of his death to such a degree that hatred is an required component?

and to adjust one line of yours: but death alone is not a reason for a celebration of hatred

Its up to each person to decide how they feel on this i admit, but bringing it to the level of hatred is more a victory to him then anything in my eyes

[mondo joe]

241. I don't share your problem with hate. Hate is an emotion, as legitimate as any other.

Sometimes the left and the right are equally dysfunctional about hate.

I'm more concerned with what you DO than what you feel.

[earthlover]

252. so....are you saying....

that someone who HATES blacks, gays, liberals, immigrants, Jews is just expressing "an emotion, as legitimate as any other"? And if it is not accompanied by action it is OK to express this emotion that is "legitimate"?

Or are you just trying to rationalizing hate towards Falwell?

[mondo joe]

255. Am I saying that hate for no reason = hate for just cause? Uh, NO.

Hating someone who never harmed you or anyone else because of the color of their skin is inane. Hating someone who willfully tried to do you harm doesn't equate to that.

Just the same, no matter what anyone's feelings, I care a lot more about their ACTIONS. As a gay man, I care very little if I'm hated -- I care very much, however, about my RIGHTS.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

233. No problem with being happy

that he died, i'm against all the talk of hatred (be it from him, my friends or strangers on a forum)

And you are correct, he will finally see if he was right

[Bodhi BloodWave]

232. True

But i don't see a harm in using philosophy(even if from a movie) to illustrate a point

And i have nothing against those who is glad he is dead(i am in that group myself), i do have a problem with those who went past that and into a gleeful dance of hatred before his corpse even had a chance to grow cold(not that hatred afterward helps anymore)

As others have stated, the smart thing to do would be fighting the issues he preached(using the 'weapons' i mentioned a few posts up), not celebrating his death in excess like some here do.

All that behavior accomplishes is driving away people that might otherwise have listened and agreed if informed.

As i've stated earlier: hatred vs hatred causes more hatred, what we need to do is get rid of the hatred on both sides and not feed it

[mondo joe]

242. I personally haven't felt hatred on his death - just relief. But I defend those who did

voice the hate. I think it's a legitimate feeling, for those who have it.

It's just a feeling, and we live in a repressed, emotionally fucked up culture already.

[burythehatchet]

229. how in the hell can a rational person think we have "time"?

It's just plain wierd. We are on the edge of destuction.

[MUSTANG_2004]

231. No argument with that

It's possible to disagree strongly with someone and not wish them personal misfortune. It's simply not healthy to be gleeful over death and illness the way some people are (on both sides of the aisle).

[Harper_is_Bush]

238. Does "civility" mean we can't call a spade a spade?

He was a divisive and dishonest man.

Pure and simple.

If anyone wants to call global warming a "myth" designed by Satan to distract people from more important issues like gay marriage and abortion, they deserve to have that made a part of the discussion upon their death. Civil or not.

[Skittles]

246. oh bite me

that bastard reaped what he sowed and I am tired of being told to calm down

[AlCzervik]

247. for fucks sake it's been almost a week already, i forgot around day 2.

[earthlover]

253. it was wednesday, today is saturday.....almost a week?

I guess time is relative....

[Neshanic]

254. "Learn. Understand. Love." They hate us for our weakness.

They learn nothing. A Vietnam repeat.

They understand nothing. Money, power they understand.

They Love. Not the kind of love that only they will allow.

Take it somewhere else..."My Little Pony" is working the side of the street you want to be, go cross at the light.