What Teacher Tenure Is — And What It’s Not

[proud2BlibKansan]

A recent Time magazine poll asked members of the public how they felt about teacher tenure. And, in the course of a 26-word question, Time managed to perpetuate three myths that educators say are contributing to the public’s misunderstanding over what tenure is — and what it’s not.

Specifically, Time asked, “Do you support or oppose tenure for teachers, the practice of guaranteeing teachers lifetime job security after they have worked for a certain amount of time?”

The problem is, tenure does not guarantee teachers a job, does not offer any lifetime employment security, and, regardless of the implication of Time’s question, does not just happen after a “certain amount of time.”

Educators participating in a recent discussion on NEA Today’s Facebook page said that these three tenure myths are prevalent among the media and the general public, and are distractions in the debate on how to improve America’s public schools.

The notion that tenure is a guaranteed job for life must have come as a shock for Lancaster, Calif., teacher Carolyn Heia Brown, who said that she received tenure and was laid off in the same month.

If you thought tenured teachers couldn’t lose their jobs, you’re not alone — it’s a common misunderstanding, but that doesn’t make it accurate.

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And teachers who receive tenure often endure a marathon process before it is granted.

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contracts between unions and school districts in no way forbid the firing of tenured teachers.

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“Tenure is a red herring that really has nothing at all to do with the problems our schools are facing,“ she said. “I think all the attention paid to tenure should be refocused on NCLB which is hurting us far more.”

more . . . http://neatoday.org/2010/09/17/what-tenure-is-and-what-it’s-not/comment-page-1/#comment-462

[Dappleganger]

1. But it's so much easier...

just to repeat NCLB memes!

:sarcasm:

[Nikki Stone1]

2. K&R

K

[goddess40]

3. It's management not the unions fault for keeping poor teachers

always has been, always will be. Management either doesn't want to do the work or they are protecting their pet.

[DailyGrind51]

7. This occurs more often than we would like to believe. Getting along with the boss always trumps

competence, in any field or organization.

[Davis_X_Machina]

4. I wonder what...

...the poll results would be if the question was worded this way: "Do you think teachers should be protected against arbitrary dismissal after they have worked some set number of years?"

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Interesting question

Some will say yes because the current meme is that the experienced teachers are the bad guys,

[Starry Messenger]

6. k & r

[Nye Bevan]

8. A teacher in New York told an eighth grader "You have a sexy body".

He couldn't be fired because of tenure. So he ended up being paid over $100,000 per year (by the NYC Department of Education) to sit in a "rubber room" and do nothing (he used the time to manage his multi-million dollar real estate portfolio).

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/leazy_of_rubber_room_vJlavofm7uiZjmfrTAgTxM

Obviously some kind of reform of tenure is needed. My boss can fire me at any time so long as there is no illegal discrimination. And I am sure that the same applies to most DUers. Why should teachers enjoy special protection that the rest of us do not?

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. Utter bullshit

Tenure doesn't enable a teacher to sexually harass a student. Did you even bother to read the OP?

[Nye Bevan]

11. So why didn't they fire this guy?

Why are they paying him $100k to do nothing?

Don't you think they would have fired him if they could?

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. You're going to have to ask them that

Tenure has absolutely nothing to do with administrative incompetence.

[wcast]

21. Did you even bother to read the article you linked to?

Nowhere does it say that tenure prevented the firings. The teacher had a hearing before the DOE who fixed punishment. Whether it was lenient or not is another matter, but we don't know the facts, just a two sentence blurb. Whether through being cleared during a court trial, as was the case of Francisco Olivares, or through a DOE hearing, as with several others, they were cleared or given punishment. Why are you being disingenuous about the tenure aspect?

In PA, tenure means that you can not be let go on a whim. If the school board president's son has a biology degree, he can't come in and fire the biology teacher to make a spot. In order to be fired, all a teacher in PA needs is two unsatisfactory evaluations within a four month period. There are steps, as there should be, to prevent abuse of the system, and to allow teachers the chance to improve. I have seen several teacher's dismissed over my 18 years as a teacher, but by and large, most teachers are quality individuals who are committed to their profession. You could make a list like this about any other profession, and you could find similar cases in other professions where management failed to do their jobs, or they individual was cleared. Why scapegoat teachers??

[Nye Bevan]

22. From the article...

The DOE says such tenured teachers are almost impossible to fire.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. "The DOE says"

The same group that CAN'T fire the teachers is now blaming tenure. Tenure doesn't hire. Tenure doesn't fire. The DOE does that. How about we call them out for incompetence instead of blaming tenure laws?

[MajorChode]

28. Might as well ask Wal-Mart for an opinion on unions

[mistertrickster]

38. I have a hard time believing that any teacher gets 100 grand in this country. nt

[boppers]

39. I'm guessing that's an "administrator" salary, or that they had a lot of years in.

http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

49. I don't know.

Did you make the story up?

[LWolf]

12. The real question is this:

Why do administrators not use the due process available to them to fire such teachers?

[Bozita]

18. Management fucks up, blames tenure laws and evil unions. MSM parrots the excuses.

But then, checking things out would require investigative journalism.

And THAT costs money!

[Recursion]

43. Well, from my very anecdotal direct experience

It was because the two teachers in question had a lot of friends in the city's political system.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. Even though you didn't read the OP, I read your link.

First of all, the NY Post is not a very reliable source, unless of course you think the National Enquirer is good journalism. But let's look at the 'facts' in the article you posted.

Typing teacher Alan Rosenfeld, 64, pulled in $100,049 a year while he practiced law and oversaw his $7 million in real-estate properties. A DOE arbitrator had suspended him for a week for lewdness, telling one eighth-grader, "You have a sexy body,"

Why only a week's suspension? Why is he STILL not in class? And what relationship does tenure have to the dumb decisions made by administrators in this case?

Francisco Olivares, 60, rakes in $94,154 a year. He allegedly impregnated a 16-year-old he first met when she was 13 at IS 61 in Corona, Queens. He was also accused of molesting three girls. His criminal conviction was overturned on a technicality

How does a technicality in a criminal case relate to tenure? It doesn't. Sounds like your beef should be with the prosecutor who failed to put this man in prison and not with his tenure.

Joining them on the dishonor roll is computer teacher George Addison, 40, who makes $80,695 a year. He was accused of allegedly shoving his hand down the pants of a 15-year-old special-ed pupil in 2003. Years after his criminal case was dismissed, he still hasn't picked up piece of chalk.

Accused and case dismissed. Last year two 7th grade girls in my school accused their teacher of fondling them in class in front of their classmates. None of the other kids agreed this had happened. So the teacher returned to class. And again, what do false accusations by kids have to do with tenure?

Music teacher Aryeh Eller, 43, first appeared on DOE radar in 1998 when a Hillcrest HS student complained about the way he hugged her and made suggestive comments. He told another pupil, "You have a nice ass."
But officials failed to act, according to a report by then-Special Schools Investigator Ed Stancik, who called it a "missed opportunity to remove a problem teacher from the system."

Tenure was the reason administrators missed an opportunity to fire a teacher? Huh?

guidance counselor Radharaman Upadhyaya, who collects $102,852 a year despite having served a three-day suspension for failing to report his arrest for alleged sexual abuse of a student at his home

"alleged" Do I need to look that up for you? Or should I allege some wrongdoing on your part?

science instructor Wayne Miller, who pulls down $78,039 a year after he was arrested for allegedly sexually assaulting a child, sources said. His case was dismissed.

Case dismissed? And this was because of tenure?


.




Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/leazy_of_rubber_room_vJlavofm7uiZjmfrTAgTxM#ixzz10fmvNYs8

[MajorChode]

20. Most American workers have the right to bargain collectively

What you are describing for yourself is an "at-will" employee which means you have no contract. Employees who have a contract may have provisions in place which guarantee due process not necessarily guaranteed under the law. This is not just true of teachers. When I was a union steward I represented employees who probably did deserve to get fired, but weren't because of management incompetence. No organization on earth is going to sign a contract that absolutely prevents someone from getting fired. There is always a process for doing so.

If you are looking for someone or something to blame here, blame the incompetent managers that are allowing these "technicalities". This same argument is used against all sorts of unions, and it's bullshit.

[Nevernose]

52. Maybe you should join a union

Then your boss would at least need a good reason to fire you.

Note that I'm not commenting on your link -- I have no idea whther that teacher sexually harrassed a student or not -- merely commenting on your personal response, which sounds more like jealousy than anything.

[Pisces]

10. Who cares about tenure??/ WE are talking about educating kids. This is a red

herring that you are holding onto. Just because that was brought up as a part of the conversation, this is what you have been focusing on. We are talking about programs that are designed to help
inner city children with the inherent problems that they face. Why are some on this board so focused on the teacher, union agenda. If we all focused on what was the most important ( THE CHILDREN)
maybe we could come up with the best plan to educate them, instead of accepting that they are throw aways. I have read posts about how undisciplined, rude, asshole, terrible parents etc about the kids that need the help the most. Yet, despite this negative view of certain children, the SEED Program has been able to take these kids and get 100% graduation rate with 87% martriculation to college.
These are hard numbers that no one can dispute ( and no these are not hand selected children) .

The outrage on this board at times feels contrived and deliberate to derail any kind of change that is benefitting kids today.

[LWolf]

13. Who is "WE?"

Educators spend more time talking about educating kids than anyone else I've ever known.

The reason this is brought up is clear. Current school "reforms" are focused on blaming and firing teachers, and this administration supports doing away with due process.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. What LWolf said

As an actual stakeholder in this industry, I can attest that my union has consistently been on the side of the children. So have the teachers. That's why I focus on the union. They have a track record to prove their competence and they have consistently focused on doing what's best for students. Administrators do not. As for tenure, teachers who are worried about losing their jobs without due process are not likely to fully concentrate on teaching and learning.

[hendo]

16. Tenure or not

There are too many bad teachers who should be fired, and not enough good teachers who should be kept.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. LOL

Okay. Thanks for the well researched post and evidence to back up your claims.

[wcast]

23. I swear, post a link about education, and they come out of the woodwork

When I was in school, I had a few bad teachers, but they were just that, a few. Most where very good at their jobs, and cared. You don't teach for the money, but because you care. Very few people could do this job for 35 years for the "money" alone. You would wear down and burn out. Commenting on Post 16

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. We have too many who believe that going to school means they are qualified to be a critic

and their mean 3rd grade teacher means all of us are mean. Sigh.

Thanks for your support.

[hendo]

29. Can you honestly tell me

that every teacher you have ever worked with was a good teacher? There was never one that got on your nerves because they were not doing a good job? What are you, the only teacher in your school?

[hendo]

27. I am related to plenty of teachers

my mom is a teachers, my sister is a teacher, my mother-in-law and father-in-law are teachers, two of my aunts are teachers.

[Obamanaut]

46. "my mom is a teachers" Is our childrens learning? nt

[hendo]

26. You do not agree that they are bad teachers?

Are you serious?

My wife spent the summer working with Milwaukee Public School district high school science teachers. One of them didn't even know what liquid nitrogen was. Are you honestly telling me you think that's okay? Do you really want incompetent teachers teaching children?

[hendo]

55. I guess you do agree. NT

[Codeine]

30. As much as the OP irritates me,

the problem is not "bad teachers." Most teachers kick ass. There's only so much they can do when faced with empty budgets, shitty parents, apathetic and lazy kids, and a hostile society.

[hendo]

31. I never said that all teachers were bad, just that some are

and that the ones who do not know the subject matter they are tasked with teaching should be tossed out.

[Codeine]

32. My experience tell me that such teachers are an infinitesimally small percentage. nt

[Recursion]

42. Not mine

It's certainly not 50% or even 25% in the districts I've worked in. Maybe 5-10%.

[MajorChode]

33. Think about what you are saying for a moment

Do you think that somehow all these teachers you claim are incompetent got incompetent overnight?

I manage employees for a living. I have yet to find one incompetent employee that wasn't already incompetent the day they walked in the door. That is the time they should be removed, not years down the road.

Even if what you claim is true, all those incompetent teachers should have been removed well before they ever got tenure. If an incompetent teacher gets tenure, that's not the fault of the teacher or the teacher's union or the teachers' union contract. That is a fault of incompetent management. Your suggestion that they should be "tossed out" only insures more will fill their vacancies. It's better to attack the actual problem rather than the symptom.

[hendo]

34. No, some teachers become incompetent over a period of time

They choose to not keep up with developments in their fields, whether it be a science teacher who has no clue of scientific advances, or the history teacher who still teaches an outdated interpretation of historical events.

When teaching a freshmen level course in college, the general rule is that incoming freshmen students learned inaccurate data in high school. Professors are tasked with the dual ability of covering course material, and backtracking to cover topics or skill sets that the student should have learned while they were in high school.

Here is an older article, but the premise still holds: http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/article/CA6448200.html

[MajorChode]

36. That hasn't been my experience managing other professionals

Competence encompasses knowledge, skills, and ability. People who are lacking in one can generally make up for it with the other two. Knowledge is the easiest one to overcome. Incompetence generally involves a failure of two or more of those things, and that just doesn't happen over time. That's not to say that it can't, but it's quite rare. People who don't keep up generally never did to begin with, and even if that were the case it's still the responsibility of management to review lesson plans and insure that teachers are informed of changes. If poor employees is a systemic problem, management is almost always at fault. They will typically blame union contracts and whatever else they can to avoid taking responsibility.

[AlecBGreen]

35. I agree 100%

"I have yet to find one incompetent employee that wasn't already incompetent the day they walked in the door."

Heres the problem in my school district, and I suspect many others:

with the low pay and the NCLB, many people dont want to get into teaching. Seeing how ARRRRRR!ne Duncan is taking things, it will only get worse. This leads to a teacher shortage, especially in high need areas like math, science, ESL and SPED. Because of this shortage, the powers-that-be are often forced to hire whomever they can find. I spoke with one of my admins right before school started and here was the conversation we had:

ME: "Hey M, hows it going?"
M: Shitty.
Why?
I have to hire a SPED teacher and I only have one candidate. She wants to be put at year 15 of the pay scale (=$50,000) even though she doesnt have much experience.
So what are you going to do?
I dont know but Im required by law to have X number of SPED teachers and we are one short. School starts in a week...

[Recursion]

44. Are the apathetic and lazy kids of shitty parents educable or not?

If there's someone who can educate those kids, we need to find them.

If there's not, why does it matter at all who is teaching them?

If teachers are as powerless to help out kids as some people seem to say, why bother being a teacher?

[Codeine]

48. Because they can teach the kids who want to learn.

They can even teach many of the kids who don't. But one realistically has to recognize that some of the nasty little buggers are never, ever, ever going to learn a damned thing.

[Recursion]

50. Well, there we go

If good teachers can help the kids who want to learn, but can't help the ones who don't, what's the point? Anybody can help the kids who want to learn. And apparently nobody can help the kids who don't. Why are teachers important, then?

some of the nasty little buggers are never, ever, ever going to learn a damned thing.

A third of those nasty little buggers in DC drop out. Would that be worse with different teachers?

[mistertrickster]

37. As a former NEA president at my school, my understanding of tenure only insures

that a proper process will be followed before firing.

In other words, a professional employee cannot be terminated without cause. Usually, that means that employee will be informed of unsatisfactory performance and be given a chance to remediate the situation.

But if teachers don't shape up and meet the performance review, they can and will be fired. I've seen it happen more than once.

[Recursion]

41. Right. That's "job security for life"

Cause is required for termination. Do you not get that this is 1000 times more job security than those of us in the private sector have? It's job security for life. Not that that's a bad thing; I'd imagine it does help teachers. But to claim it's nothing special is irritating. So is hearing people complain that their annual COLAs aren't as big as they used to be.

[PVnRT]

57. Well, heaven forbid any employee in this country

have anything like job security. I bet you hate labor unions, too, since they protect their members in exactly the same way.

[Recursion]

60. I love labor unions. I wish I were in one.

Well, I'm in two that don't really count because they don't do anything except offer life insurance.

[Recursion]

40. How is "cannot be let go on a whim" NOT "job security for life"?

That sounds to me exactly like job security for life.

[newtothegame]

45. Somewhat...

I'm on the advisory committee for the Finance department at our state college and we have two tenured professors who are basically "unfireable" according to administration. They refuse to update their syllabus, use email with their students or hold office hours. Their reviews on professor ratings sites are basement-low.
And they've as much as said they couldn't care less about teaching anymore or the students that pay their salaries. We can't get the department to move forward on anything because of these two, but there's virtually nothing we can do about it either.

[PVnRT]

58. Sigh.....

Tenure for college professors is entirely different than tenure for K-12 teachers. Is that really too hard for people to understand?

[JCMach1]

47. I got out of public school teaching for how these reforms played-out in FL

Much of what Obama and Duncan want to put in-place is straight out of Jeb Bush's playbook in that regard.

Modest pay, no raises, ever-increasing insurance rates, shrinking retirement option... You think the kids are bad until you actually meet the parents.

I remember one poor girl who was in my homeroom. I had to write her up on a couple of vacations for various issues. I found out after the fact that her father was a drug addict with AIDS who would beat her regularly about even the smallest issue. I radically changed my approach with the child, of course...

I wish that parents like that were rare, but I could go down the list student by student...

I have a few modest proposals:

How about more time learning and less time on testing?
How about extra-curricular (sports included) truly take a back seat to academics?
Why not fund schools equally across this country?
Why not listen and put educators in-charge, not politicians when it comes to education?

Seriously, where is the bi-partisan PROFESSIONAL blue ribbon committee on education reform??? The east answer is politicians AND the public don't want educators to have a say.

That's why I bugged-out... I tried to make a difference (even running for the legislature as an educator) and it was all for naught. Like many other teachers, I left and took an immediate raise by entering higher education outside of the U.S. But it wasn't just a raise, I made a shift to a culture that also places a great value on educators and the education process.

Americans love to say they value education... value children..., but I see less and less of it as the years go by...

[masmdu]

56. Just curious...where did you 'bugout' to?

[JCMach1]

61. UAE, for a new job

Where I have been able to make very good money and have enough left over to travel the world WITH MY FAMILY.

Try doing that on a teacher's salary in the US.

[Tatiana]

51. An example of why teacher tenure is important:

As a union steward, I remember filing a grievance against a new principal who tried to fire a teacher (giving him a bad evaluation after 6 consecutive superior ratings).

The principal's real problem with this award-winning teacher? He was gay and wanted to start a gay-straight alliance club at the school.

After the teacher submitted his proposal is when the harrassment began. The principal did not approve of the teacher's "lifestyle choice" (yes, he actually said this at a hearing). Without tenure, this stellar teacher could have been fired without a valid cause and thousands of future students would have missed out on the opportunity to participate and learn in his courses.

[PVnRT]

59. According to some of the Brain Trust around here

it is absolutely proper to be fired for being gay, or for wearing a funny hat, or perhaps for driving a Volkswagon.

[slackmaster]

53. 98% of probationary hires in the Los Angeles school district achieve tenure

After just two years on the job.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/dec/20/local/la-me-teacher-tenure20-2009dec20

[Recursion]

54. My college did its faculty like that

"Tenured" basically meant "no longer probationary". Though it wasn't a research institution and faculty were not expected to publish, so it's probably closer to how a secondary school tenure system works.

[Hannah Bell]

62. if that's the case (& i don't necessarily buy it since it's the la times saying so, in fact,

district turnover seems to belie that, but whatever) --

it's not a problem with teachers or unions, but administrators.

so why don't all the deformers go harrass THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE. DUH.