I'm a white woman who used to live with a black man (re: Biden)

[femmedem]

I'll never forget how, after meeting my black boyfriend, a white friend's first words to me were, "He seems very articulate."

I've dated plenty of white men, and nobody ever called them articulate. That went without saying.

Yeah, it's racist. It's not deliberately hateful, but it's racist.

[Virginia Dare]

1. Agreed...n/t

[helderheid]

2. I agree ... but your subject line made me think you were living with Biden and he was actually black

:spray:

[femmedem]

10. Oh no! I fixed it. Thanks. nt

[AngryAmish]

3. Was he a credit to his race?

Maybe I should ask Joe...

[CatWoman]

46. and was he "clean"?

[rebel with a cause]

115. and one of the "good ones"?

[Bluebear]

4. Biden used to be black?

He sure lost a lot of ...hair.

[Patiod]

5. Bingo - a black friend told me the same thing

I've tried to pass on her explanation to others.

[babylonsister]

6. I don't have as big an issue with 'articulate' as I do with 'clean'.

If someone is well-spoken, or gave a speech like Obama did at the 04 DNC, and you wanted to compliment the delivery and content of the speech, how would one characterize that without offending? And that goes for black or white or whatever.
But 'clean', as if most African Americans he meets aren't? That sounded pretty bad to me.

[sandnsea]

18. dynamic, eloquent, expressive

Anything but articulate. But the 'clean' line bugged me too, just posted below. White people. Jeez. Can't take us anywhere. :)

[babylonsister]

28. LOL! I got 'chewed out' on DU after Obama's speech for calling him

'eloquent' for the same reason 'articulate' is being dissed now. Can't win.

[sandnsea]

30. Along with dynamic and expressive??

Yeah, I'd hesitate to use anything that described verbalization skills only, because I know it's sensitive. That's why I listed three words, not one that goes to elocution only. So I understand what you're saying, but I do think white people can generally try harder.

[Solon]

34. I don't see why you would have been dissed for that...

being articulate, at least to most people, means being understandable, a backhanded compliment at best. This is far and away different than being eloquent. Like I said earlier, Obama is a great orator, granted, that's a term that has fell out of favor a long time ago, but he can MOVE people with his speeches, that's a gift only a few people have.

The guy in my sig had that gift, so did FDR, JFK, MLK Jr., and RFK. Damn that's a lot of initials. :)

[cherokeeprogressive]

39. The first thing that came to my mind

was the old cliche "He cleans up well". To me that's ALWAYS been a derogatory statement. Definitely not a good thing to say about a sitting US Senator who just happens to be of color.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

121. "He (or she) cleans up well" is derogatory?

I've only heard it as a compliment. Never derogatory. To me, it means someone "looks good" after losing the normal grubby or casual garb for something more formal, like when going to a wedding. Maybe even shaving for the occasion.

I don't think it applies to Obama. He doesn't normally appear in casual garb, looking grubby.

[cherokeeprogressive]

127. While I might agree that it doesn't apply to Obama

I don't really see it as a solid compliment when it's used... Maybe I'm a little too sensitive?

[Lex]

7. I agree. To call a black person "articulate" makes me cringe.

For all the reasons you state.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lex]

13. "Too bad the blacks can't enjoy that compliment."

Ugh. :thumbsdown:

[BlooInBloo]

70. God I wish they wouldn't delete posts... If white folks were held to PUBLIC scrutiny...

... about how they really feel about black folks, we might be able to get somewhere.

Thanks for capturing the money-quote tho!

[liberalhistorian]

108. Not only should such posts not be deleted,

we should be able to debate with the poster and pile on, if necessary.

I'm white, and it's never failed to amaze me how, when some whites get together among themselves, they automatically assume that the other whites are all as racist and/or ignorant as they are, i.e., in telling racist jokes, or bigoted comments, etc., all with a wink-wink, nudge-nudge attitude. I'm currently working on a Sioux reservation in SD and some of the blatantly racist comments from whites everywhere in this state are truly disheartening and disgusting. However, I do enjoy the looks on their faces when I set them straight and when they know that I'm not gonna join in on their racist pile-ons. Quite amusing, actually, especially the sudden and day late and dollar short backtracking.

[FiveGoodMen]

19. I agree that we shouldn't have a list of off-limits compliments.

That PC stuff never seems to help.

However, many here seem to be reading into what Biden might have been getting at when he made this statement. And they may be right.

[Stuckinthebush]

35. PC is very helpful

PC means "critically aware" really.

It makes us think about our words and actions and how they effect others.

[Bill McBlueState]

43. i like that definition for pc

I find it helpful to point out that the C in PC stands for correct, and that it's rarely a bad thing to be correct instead of wrong.

[Stuckinthebush]

56. I like it

I'm going to have to use that in class! Thanks.

[sandnsea]

22. It's always used with blacks - expresses shock and disbelief

That a black person could be educated and not bowing to the massa. White people protrayed black people as backhills ignoramuses for decades, particularly in film, white people created the stereotype. Then, for white people to get on their high horse and 'compliment' black people for not being the stereotype white people created??? It isn't a compliment.

And I'm white. Find another way to say what you like about the guy.

[Connie_Corleone]

23. Oh no! The Blacks!!

[Buck Laser]

29. Can you say "condescending?"

[Dora]

33. You're articulate for a white American.

She throws good for a girl.
He cooks good for a guy.
He's pretty clean, for a black man.

ANY COMPLIMENT THAT HAS A CONDITION ON IT - "FOR A (BLACK, GIRL, MAN, QUEER, WHATEVER)" IS NOT A COMPLIMENT.

If you want to compliment somebody, compliment them. "Wow, you're very articulate!"

Not, "For a black man, you're very articulate."

[katsy]

44. A compliment is: "nice suit you're wearing" or "love your tie".

Being articulate is a given for anyone whether white, black, green, male, female who has the level of achievement that Senator Obama has worked hard for.

Nothing can make white people nervous about talking to or about black people if they spoke to/about them as equals.

Remember when msm was stuck on stupid talking about Speaker Pelosi's dress? Did you hear msm comment on ex-senator frist's undertaker garb? Of course not.

No one has ever said "Senator Clinton is a great Senator for a woman" either. I'd be offended if they did.

Peace

[MonkeyFunk]

9. Yes

it's definitely racist. Biden messed up big-time.

[sandnsea]

11. "and clean"

Where the hell did that come from??

What's really out-of-touch is that he doesn't seem to know it's racist to say it. He may as well have said he was a 'good black'. Being of a different age is no excuse, not when you're going to run for President.

[druidity33]

85. politically clean...

no skeletons. No Tawana Brawleys hiding in his closet.

[sandnsea]

89. Why are you making shit up?

Biden said on TDS that he meant fresh and new. He didn't mean anything about skeletons in the closet, some bigot apologist made that shit up yesterday. I do not understand why white people deny that we say racist shit, sometimes on purpose, sometimes out of ignorance. When we do it, we need to LISTEN and come to an understanding, and then own it.

[druidity33]

91. sorry...

if my first impression of what he meant doesn't jibe with your insightful analysis. First time i read it, that's what i thought. Does that make me a racist? I would have thought the same thing had he used Edwards' name and not Obama's. Honestly, i think had he said this about any other candidate, it would be a non-issue. As for articulate being demeaning to black people well, it may be trite and shallow, but i think calling it racist is crossing a line.

In this we just disagree...
:shrug:

[Karenina]

103. Whose line?

Just asking. :shrug:

[JacksonWest]

104. Um, he probably wouldn't describe Edwards as the "First African-American" anything...eh?

Message:
The statement is not bigoted if you ignore the English language, I'll give you that. It Biden was speaking in a different dialect-favored by credit card cronies- than there's the small chance that his statements were not bigoted.

However, he, through the use of the English language, draws a direct comparison to all other African American candidates. His statement, at the very least, says that Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, And Carol Moseley Braun are all inarticulate, dirty(or corrupt), dumb, and ugly.

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. "

Note the use of the word first, and the use of the word African-American. You can argue that the three people I mentioned are not mainstream-even though they all ran national campaigns, one was a Senator, and all three are household names.

[druidity33]

107. i can argue

that the word "mainstream" acts as a quantifier... and that none of the other 3 candidates mentioned are mainstream. I just think to call the man racist based on poor syntax and inadequate adjective selection is too strong a stance to take. It's like showing your artwork in a gallery and a viewer saying "you're work is... interesting". Biden is a bore (boor? or Boer?), why make more of it than it is?

and for people to call other people 'apologists' for pointing that out is silly. It's not like he said Macaca or anything...

[JacksonWest]

117. If you can argue-please start.

You just keep changing your premise. Maybe you should run for President. Have we abandoned the comparison that Biden could have said the same thing about Edwards? And now, you're going to say that none of the candidates I mentioned were "mainstream".

Fine, fine, fine. One of them had to be mainstream, according to Biden. He was making a direct comparison to other mainstream, African-American candidates. So, please, pick which candidate was "mainstream", and apply the insults to that person.

[druidity33]

120. see... there you go again...

picking on someone's semantics. What i should have said was "i argue", because i think it's ridiculously obvious that Sharpton, JAckson and Carol MB are not Mainstream. JJ could possibly be considered that, but i think this country is a far cry from having a Reverend President.

And since when is adding another example, "changing my premise". Will YOU answer that question? If he had said the same exact thing about Edwards, but said Southerner or Midwesterner instead of African-American, what WOULD your response be?

I am of the opinion that this verbal gaffe does not prove Biden is a racist and that levelling that charge at ANYONE for anything but the best of well-founded reasons is a mistake and wrong.

I'm done with this thread now, you all can go on and on if you want... it's just wallowing in crapulence.

[JacksonWest]

122. Quoting Reagan. Not surprised.....

"I would have thought the same thing had he used Edwards' name and not Obama's"

That was what you said about Edwards. You changed your last question about Edwards to
"Will YOU answer that question? If he had said the same exact thing about Edwards, but said Southerner or Midwesterner instead of African-American, what WOULD your response be?"

YOU(to use your phrasing) never asked a question. And, not that you have, it's different then YOUR original statement. You little premise shifter you! You little devil!

But, yes, I will answer YOUR question. If he had said the same thing about Edwards in reference to Southerner or Midwesterner-it couldn't be racist-since both are geographic areas with every race represented. My response would be"Biden just insulted every single Presidential Candidate to come from the Midwest and the South-ever."

So, if we live in a vacuum, we can pretend that the use of the word "articulate" is not over-used by bigots in their descriptions of African-Americans that they are ever so impressed with.

[druidity33]

125. yes

i think there is a grave difference between being insulting and being racist. Insults can be forgivable.


you can feel free to call elaborating on a concept "premise shifting" if you want...



As for quoting Reagan, WTF?

[JacksonWest]

126. "There you go again" is one of the most famous lines uttered during a presidential debate.

http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/amit/display.cfm?amit_id=1250

Is a racist insult half forgivable?

Now I'm just being difficult.

I don't think Biden is racist, or his comments are racist. I think they showcase bigotry, which is different then racism.

[liberalhistorian]

112. Why don't you try letting African-Americans decide

whether or not it's racist? What the hell would we as whites know, anyway? How the hell would we know if something is racist or not? Who are you to tell them it ISN'T racist? How would you like it if someone said of you that "he shoots baskets okay for a white guy?" Just like, as a woman, I hate it when men decide for me what is or should be considered sexist/mysognist or not. What the fuck would they know?

What that blithering idiot Biden was basically saying is that he talks well and is clean FOR A BLACK MAN. The stereotype of blacks, mostly created by whites, is that they "talk funny" and are "unclear", and to say that someone is "articulate for a black man" is, frankly, kowtowing to the stereotype. Then again, Biden has always had terminal foot-in-the-mouth disease and he's always talked too goddamned much, anyway, he loves to hear the sound of his own voice. He's beyond annoying, always has been, which is why he's never made any headway in any of his primary tries the past twenty years.

[JacksonWest]

118. No. Racism is racism. It's not subjective. You don't need to be a certain race to interpret these

comments.

If only people of a certain race can know or deem something "racist", then nothing and everything is racist. People wouldn't have to be responsible for their own behavior-since they wouldn't "know" what was racist or not.

A racist comment or offense is an objective event. It's not something that requires interpretation by a particular race.

[druidity33]

119. i call BS

on your entire post. First of all, how do you know i'm not an African-American? Second of all, are you? If not, then by your own words, you can't make that "racism!" determination. And please, would you read what he actually said.

"he is the first MAINSTREAM African-American candidate..."

you can't use his words to say ANYTHING about his feelings for Sharpton, Jackson, or Mosely-Braun... none of them are MAINSTREAM.

Also
TO ME:
Bright means INTELLIGENT.
Articulate means WELL-SPOKEN.
Clean means WITHOUT BAGGAGE.

If you want to play etymologist and dissect words like you're in a poetry class that's fine.
But don't play that game with me. I am telling you what i THINK. You are trying to pass off what you say as unequivocal fact... and that's just plain wrong.

[Bombtrack]

12. Hi, this is Sal Governale...

[Marnieworld]

27. LOL!

Biden's apology is about as enlightened. :hi:

[redqueen]

14. It's so sad that this has to be explained.

*sigh*

[Karenina]

82. It's EVEN SADDER that when it IS EXPLAINED

by people who have experienced the sting of coded language, that their realities and perceptions are shouted down and blown off by those WHO DO NOT AND CANNOT KNOW what "stealth racism" is.

Never mind that Joe was attempting to bait Obama. He failed. :rofl:

[redqueen]

84. Yeah, no kidding...

It's all in our heads!

:crazy:

[jgraz]

15. "He seems very articulate."

Jesus, that brought back some unpleasant memories. In my first job out of college I was part of an interview for a prospective engineer. One of the candidates was black, and his "surprising" articulateness was one of the main topics of discussion in the feedback session. He wasn't credited with being "very articulate", though (“did you hear? he said ‘axed’ instead of ‘asked’!”).

I was appalled, but said nothing. He was not the best candidate for the job, so I just let the racist comments slide. Needless to say, I got out of there as soon as I could.

ETA: Also, "articulate", when applied to black men, is often code for "he sounds white". For some people, the guy could be Neil DeGrasse Tyson and if he doesn't speak with a perfect midwestern accent, he's not "articulate".

[Matariki]

16. I absolutely agree

otoh - given the glut of idiot politicians, particularly the president, being articulate is a bit of a stand out... ;-)

[femmedem]

37. Bush didn't even know how to pronounce articulate

until he heard Biden say it.:P

[northzax]

17. maybe the white men you were dating weren't all that articulate?

just a thought.

and was he, in fact, articulate?

[femmedem]

26. Most of the white boyfriends were extremely articulate.

Three of them were national merit scholarship winners. Also my Dad edits crossword puzzles for a living, but I never heard anyone call him articulate either.

My black boyfriend was kind of quiet and introverted.

[Colobo]

94. As a "foreign" black

I have to admit that many of my white American friends have "admitted" that they feel "so comfortable" with me because I "dress well", I'm "so nice and intelligent" and all those compliments, and in many ways (sometimes directly) told me they saw me as a "different" kind of black person. Different from African-Americans, who, I think, they seemed not to like so much.

Ignorant as I was when I came here 6 years ago, I felt good with what I saw as "acceptance" from those around me in my new social environment... little I knew then what many of those compliments really meant, and mean. I tell you this: most of those who have said such things, I feel, are good people. They do mean what they say as compliments. However, they are rooted in their own racist feelings... feelings they don't know how to fight against or deal with.

I don't blame them, in fact. Coming from a part of the continent where there is open cultural and insitituional racism against blacks and against Natives (in countries with substantial Native populations), I can say in Latin America minorities (or numerical majorities, in many cases) have it much worse.

[femmedem]

123. Welcome to DU! And I would agree

that most whites who make statements like this mean well, are not conscious of their racism, and not conscious that these are racist statements.

In a better world, white people would realize that if they are surprised that a black person is bright, articulate, clean and good-looking, they have some unconscious racism. It would be a moment of learning.

In a perfect world, black people would not have to possess Ivy League educations, eschew Southern black accents, wear expensive clothes and have fairly light skin in order for whites to perceive them as bright, articulate, clean and good-looking.

[peacetalksforall]

20. He could have referred to his scholarly knowledge of a subject and

his expert delivery. Guess he, Biden, had a really bad day. I'm kinda feeling sorry for him. We all have those bad days. Makes we wonder what ever happened to bio-rhythms?

[Zodiak]

21. Depends on how articulate

If a person is called "articulate" and they possess exceptional speaking ability, then the word is not an insult. I only say that because I have a weird gift of public speaking (too bad for DU it is not the written word) and people have used that term to descibe my speaking style for years. I'm "white".

However, when the term is used because a person can put two words together and be understood, it is an insult. Kind of like "oh look, this doggie knows how to roll over".

I consider it an insult to Obama, but then again, he does have marvelous speaking ability that rises head and shoulders above his peers (other Senators, all of whom are white), so the statement can plausibly be couched into that.

Bush and Biden both said it...

They need to rephrase it to "marvelous speaker"...or "when he speaks, he moves people". Far more specific and these statements cannot be misconstrued.

I will say that coupled with "clean"..."articulate" sounds like an insult. Like he is surprised Obama wipes his ass or something.

[Nutmegger]

24. Hi femmedem!!!

How's everything in your neck of the woods?

[femmedem]

31. Good! And good to see you!

If you pop into New London before Feb. 11, stop in to the Hygienic Gallery. I've got a piece up about Adel Hamad, prisoner #940 at Guantanamo Bay. But PM me if you want to chat more--I don't want to hijack the thread. Oh and yes, I surely want to delete Lieberman.:hi:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

25. I had a similar experience in jury duty.

I'm of Indian descent, and when it came time for the defense lawyer to quiz me about certain topics, I responded with the best answers I could come up with.

The lawyer then said, "You're very articulate," as if it were a surprise to him.

:eyes:

[Gormy Cuss]

52. It happens with economic class too.

In our best days my family was blue collar, on the rest we were low income and on public assistance. Some of my siblings are employed in blue collar jobs. One sister become very ill from what was later diagnosed as a rare viral disease -- rare as in the CDC wanted to confirm the diagnosis after a local specialist made his assessment. The specialist had taken a full history on her and knew that she worked in a factory. After talking to her the doctor remarked that she was quite articulate, with a tone of surprise in his voice. The doc was lucky that she was under the weather because had she realized what he was implying she would have ripped his head off.

[FrenchieCat]

32. The odd thing is, there are so many articulate folks in the Black community

it ain't even funny. It is not the exception....

[Beaverhausen]

36. Maybe people use the word "articulate" in the way it is intended

Think about it- not everyone actually is articulate.

I mean, that would hardly be a word anyone would use to describe Bush.

But Obama is very articulate. Biden...not so much, but I generally get what he is trying to say.

Why is it so improbable that people use the word as a compliment?

[K8-EEE]

38. He Lost Me With The Bankruptcy Bill Anyhow.

I cannot believe he said that -- it's so clueless.

[The Count]

40. Now that * chimed in there's no doubt left.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=93022&mesg_id=93022

"He hasn't gotten elected yet. He hasn't even gotten the party's nomination. He's an attractive guy. He's articulate," Bush said in an interview with Fox News.

[kiahzero]

41. Is it possible he was more articulate than some of your other dates?

It's not like "articulate" has any racist overtones in of itself. I don't think it "goes without saying" that someone is articulate these days, since so many people play fast and loose with the language.

Perhaps I'm just biased, since I'm a white male who's been called "articulate" on quite a few occasions.

[femmedem]

53. A fair question, considering you never met him.

But no, he didn't particularly have the gift of gab. But he grew up in an otherwise all-white community in MA, and he sounded like a white person from MA. And some of the white men I dated were technically geniuses, as articulate as they come.

[malaise]

42. At best it's patronizing

At worst it's racist.

[CatWoman]

45. Jackie Kennedy, upon meeting Coretta Scott King, marvelled

at how "articulate" she was.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[crispini]

47. I sort of get this, but I sort of don't.

I mean, if somebody met ME and said afterwards of me, "she seems very articulate," I would take it as a compliment. I am white and female.

On the other hand, I understand that this is the kind of thing where there might be an implied, "Hey, he's not stupid!" in there.

Is this something one can only say about white people without being racist, that they are articulate?

[Beaverhausen]

50. I agree. I too would love to be called 'articulate'

But it's not one of my strong points.

[femmedem]

51. That is a good question.

And there may be no absolute answer. I think, though, that when a white person is tempted to call a black person articulate, they would do well to ask themselves if what they really mean is that the person is more articulate than they expected a black person to be.

If Biden had merely called Obama articulate, without also calling him clean and bright, I might give him the benefit of the doubt on this, given Obama's way with a speech. But put it all together...

That said, I think it's very hard, maybe even impossible, for a white person to grow up in the U.S. and not have a shred of racism in them. I hope Biden learns from this.

[crispini]

55. Haha, yes, context is everything.

I see your point. It sounds pretty bad in the context of "clean," (what on earth possessed Biden to say that, anyway?) :eyes:

Perhaps in the context of perhaps recently having heard him speak, or discussing his book, i.e. "That Obama! He's such a good speaker/writer! So articulate!" it might not be so bad.

[nam78_two]

62. Heh yeah-context makes a huge difference.

I am not white but I always thought of "articulate", when I was in grad school in particular, strictly in the context of liberal arts majors vs. science majors. I was in Applied Physics/Engineering at the time and Engineers are notorious for their poor communication skills. I worked on a project with a guy (white, native English speaker) one summer, who communicated almost entirely in grunts and monosyllables...that was fun :eyes:. When I helped my professor teach a "Physics for non-science majors" class, I remember thinking how "articulate" kids outside engineering seemed :).

[Karenina]

59. Hmmm.... Crispini, this shit is so subtle (not). Try these examples...

I graduated from the most prestigious conservatory in the world. I'm the "first" _______. I walk out on stage behind the pianist for whom I'm a page turner (the fuckin' WORST JOB IN THE MUSIC WORLD) and an audible GASP arises from the audience. The intendant remarks to me afterward, "You were the most noticed thing on the stage." Then there's the comment from someone who is AWARE of that tidbit on my CV, "WOW :wow: she can really SIGHT READ WELL!" OR the question from a colleague, "But CAN YOU read music?" this from someone who has PLAYED MY ARRANGEMENTS. How long do you think it takes for a sensitive someone to go insane? I ask myself that question daily.

[femmedem]

63. That is horrible.

In my naivete I thought the world of the arts was different. But it isn't different anywhere, is it?

[Karenina]

67. Really not.

Sexism and racism are sick chronic conditions of most societies on this planet. Once I'd travelled enough to confront that reality, I had to begin a serious re-evaluation in my own head. I'm still workin' on it. ;-)

[sandnsea]

60. "She's got such strong opinions"

Compliment? Condescension? "Bitch" in disguise?

[crispini]

61. ROFL.

Yeah, I get that all the time. Hee hee hee. Fuck 'em, I am a bitch. :rofl:

Context is everything, I guess. :D

[BlooInBloo]

110. In general, things are only worth saying when there's reason to believe to the contrary...

... or, at the very least, no reason at all to believe in the affirmative.

Which, applied to this case, is clearly and blatantly racist. It's standard for cowardly white bigots to further this linguistic move by "playing stupid" - pretending to have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER could be construed as racist-ly insulting.

A cute addition to this kind of racist comment is the "plausible deniability shield" it gives to other white bigots, who are too cowardly to expressly support racism.

Another cute characteristic of this type of racism, exacerbating the primary characteristic, is the low-set bar - white candidate: Harvard law, years of state and national experience, extraordinary diplomatic abilities. Black candidate: clean and articulate.

No matter how good an "acting stupid" job DUers do, everyone, in reality, knows it's racist.


Hey Crispini! You spelled "if" correctly! Good job!

I love "merely complimenting" people.


Keep on blissfully pretending,

BlooInBloo.

[Czolgosz]

48. John Conyers ought to kick Biden's ass!

[emulatorloo]

49. Biden's a JackAss. But I have heard people of all races described as "Articulate"

Even "white" people, if indeed they were articulate (which not everybody is, obviouly including me).

[hfojvt]

54. so compliments are racist?

Who knew?

[Solon]

58. Are you being obtuse on purpose?

Some compliments, especially in context, aren't really compliments at all, besides articulate equals "not sounding black" in cases like this.

[sniffa]

64. you're not as ugLy as i thought you'd be

you're weLcome.

[hfojvt]

66. I'm probably uglier

however, that's a long way from a compliment. By itself, articulate does not sound like a backhanded compliment. Maybe it's just the impression I make when people meet me, they notice my articulativity. I guess it would be less racist if the person noticed that he seemed arrogant or loud instead of articulate.

[KurtNYC]

114. Just for reference...

“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”

He does NOT simply say Obama is articulate and "clean"(?!). He says Obama is "the first mainstream African-American who is."

[leftofthedial]

57. was he clean too?

[MsKandice01]

65. A HUGE pet peeve of mine...

My brother and I get this alot. "Wow, you're so articulate!" Not ONCE have I heard of a white person being referred to as articulate for just being able to speak proper English. Not once. It's a compliment, sure, but it still bugs the crap out of me because I know that the color of my skin plays a big part in the reason I'm being complimented.

But...I don't consider it racist.

[femmedem]

68. I'm not sure what you mean.

I understood the pet peeve part, and that skin color has something to do with why people are calling you and your brother articulate. Why don't you consider it racist? Because it isn't deliberate?

[MsKandice01]

80. Yeah...it's the intent.. n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

69. Yeah, it's like praising someone as "a sober and hardworking Irishman".

Because those Micks are all lazy drunks, you know.

I'm kind of surprised that so many people here seem not to get the negative connotations.

[Nikki Stone1]

71. Is "articulate" racist code? I use it all the time for truly articulate people. (Like Jim Webb)

I'll take your word for it, though. People say a lot of things with subtext.

[Karenina]

86. Yes, Nikki! "Articulate" is racist code.

And THANK YOU, dear one, for taking OUR word about something you quite likely have not likely experienced. Many "overachievers" (that's ANOTHER one) of my generation ABSOLUTELY BRISTLE when we hear the word in the context that Joe presented it. I'd never hear, "She KNOWS what she's talking about." No. It was this "articulate" word that was coded to warn other whites to beware of engaging me in debate if they were shaky on their facts and references. The subtexts are many. THANK YOU for considering MY PERCEPTIONS valid, after nearly 6 decades on this planet, growing up black in a white world. THE FIRST THING that has to happen to heal the racial divide in America is the WILLINGNESS of the dominant culture to LISTEN rather than DICTATE.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

72. Even though I was appalled by his comments, I just now

happened to remember that some months ago I posted that Biden, in his interviews, always appeared so spotlessly clean and well groomed. So I guess I shouldn't judge him on his comments on appearance. I just really have a problem with his dismissal of other outstanding black men and women in public service positions.

[goodhue]

73. Great post!

It baffles me that this has to be explained.

[Rex]

74. Fuck that, yeah he is articulate and so what?

What were they expecting? A bone through the nose and a grass skirt? :eyes:

It's 2007 and we still have white people who are afraid of black people. What progress. :eyes:

[Nikki Stone1]

75. Why are you picking on "articulate" when "clean" seems particularly nasty?

“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” he said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”

I mean, come on. Clean?

Edited to add: Biden really showed his underlying feelings, like Ronald Reagan did when he stood in front of a group of businesswomen and credited women for "civilizing" men and meant it as a compliment. Biden's done.

[Rex]

76. I just found out about that in another thread.

I'm really depressed (about Molly) and pissed off about Biden. Just when I think MAYBE we are moving forward in race relations - some asshole like Joe opens his mouth and embarrasses the entire country.

[Nikki Stone1]

77. Yeah. Depressing, isn't it.

:(

[Rex]

78. Yeah.

:cry:

[fujiyama]

79. It shows a real cluelessness on his part

in his ability to interact with minorities - and recall this is his SECOND time making a racially insensitive and idiotic remark. He earlier said, you can't go into a Dunkin Donuts or 7/11 without hearing an Indian accent. I think that was the statement.

Does this all mean he's racist? I doubt it. But I think he's inept and has not idea how to talk to people outside of his incredibly isolated social circle - which is probably made largely of lobbyists for MBNA.

Hell, couldn't Biden have simply said - "Obama is an amazingly gifted speaker" or "He's a great orator"?. And yes, I've always understood "articulate" to be code for "Oh wow, look it's a black people that can speak clear English, not ebonics". It's very patronizing and condescending. It displays a sense of astonishment that a black person can speak clear English - it's one step above "coherent" if you ask me.

I recently read Bush using "articulate" referring to Obama. And it came off snide and nasty. It was so clear what Bush's agenda was - be dismissive of Obama's obvious oratical skills, which best justa about every politician including Clinton. But this is nothing new for Bush. He IS an ass hole in every which way.

Biden coupled the word with "clean" and "bright", further perpetuating a stereotype that black people are generally unfit for office.

Biden is an idiot and he talks out of his ass. That's why I'm not really that surprised he said what he said. Plus, he hadn't a chance to begin with to win the party's nomination. Hopefully this will just knock him out earlier. I used to kind of feel he knew what he was talking about regarding foreign policy, but I frankly don't give a shit what he says about that issue as well anymore - considering he huffed and puffed about Bush's strategy before Iraq, then gave him a blank check. He's just a pompous arrogant blowhard, who has an ego rivaling Donald Trump.

[baldguy]

81. "If anything has put to rest the myth of white supremacy, it the last 6 yrs under George Bush."

Gotta love Charlie Rangle.

[SunDrop23]

83. I think articulate was a compliment and maybe he should have said clean cut...

also as a compliment. Maybe I am missing the point. I did not see Biden's remarks live, I just heard them read by a news reporter so that is all I can go on. Is it too far out of the realm of possibilities to think Biden was making reference to the progress we have made as a society that has an overly racist history - where Obama is a serious contender?

[jeffrey_X]

87. that's not the point.

He specifically mentioned AFRICAN AMERICAN before he talked about articulate and clean, meaning that he (Obama) is an a-typical African American, which means most African Americans must be inarticulate and dirty.

Biden is a fucking jackass.

[marmar]

88. I don't think he was intentionally being racist, however.....

The implication, at least to me as an African American man, is that Obama is articulate, sharp and clean....unlike the rest of his people. Everyone doesn't filter this kind of statement the same way. Understand that for African Americans, and probably for minorities and women in general, words and phrases have a lot of subtext.

[Jonathan50]

90. The most despised minority

I'm a middle aged, heterosexual aryan man. Blond hair, blue eyes, nearly six feet tall and not too ugly (or so my wife tells me) ;-)

Despite that I'm a member of the most despised minority in America. A black lesbian would have a better chance of getting elected president than I.

To the minority I belong to words and phrases have a lot of subtext also.

The minority I belong to has absolutely *zero* political representation for our point of view in the USA. There is not one member of the minority to which I belong that holds any political office anywhere in the country.

The minority to which I belong is so despised that the Washington Post ran an editorial by a professor at Brooklyn College which began this way:

I never met an ****** I could like. Surely, somewhere on this planet, there is a friendly ******, but I haven’t bumped into one yet.

The ******s who have crossed my path are obnoxious.

Direct quote from the Washington Post's editorial page, I have replaced the name of my minority with ***s. Wherever I have put **s substitute black, jew or even muslim. Do you think the Washington Post would have printed such an editorial about any of those minorities?

Does the quote above sound like naked bigotry to you?

Here's a link to the editorial in question:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/anthony_m_stevensarroyo/2006/12/atheist_wannabes_vs_agnostic_t.html

Have you guessed the minority I belong to yet?

Click on the link and see if you are right.

[Solon]

100. Uhm, unless you are from Iran, that word doesn't describe your...

ethnic group. Seriously, Aryan is only used today to describe Modern Iranian or ancient Proto-Indo-Iranian groups. Not to mention the Neo-Nazi false usage of it.

But, on a more serious note, I thought the editorial was about some religious minority, the ethnicity of the person showing the bigotry isn't important. I was right, obviously, but that doesn't dismiss real bigotry against other people based on race, religion or sexual orientation.

Let's not play the game of who is more "persecuted" in this country, look at my avatar, for crying out loud!

Just my two cents from a Green-eyed, Blond haired Mick.

[Karenina]

93. I wish the American educational system

REQUIRED all students to become FLUENT in another language. I teach English to Germans. Subtext in German words is INCREDIBLE. I have to teach my students to recognize when an apple is simply an apple, as they tend to look for subtexts where none exist and when they are being BOMBARDED, for example with "question tags."

We're going to the party tonight, aren't we?
We're not going to the party tonight, are we?

versus

Are we going to the party tonight?

One of my students screamed at me in frustration, "The construction says MORE about the SPEAKER'S POV than the question (assumption stated) asked!!!"

[paulk]

95. here, have a listen

http://www.brightcove.com/title.jsp?title=463858485

in context, even!

[Az]

92. Different baggage

I suspect there is a valid difference between ignorance that results in such rude statements and the malicious conscious hatred of a people for ignorant reasons. Yes, ignorance is at the heart of both cases. But the word Racist is used to cover both situations and this may be unwarranted.

[Karenina]

96. Because whites HATE THE IDEA

that their unconscious bigotry may be discovered? That they are TRANSPARENT to their "inferiors? Why is the word "racist" such a hot button in the white community? Why is it that anyone (of colour) uttering that word in response to a statement or behaviour is MORE SUSPECT (to the dominant culture) than the statement or behaviour that triggered the observation? :shrug:

[Az]

97. No I think it has more to do with intent

Calling someone a racist carries with it the implication that there is a deliberate attempt to belittle another people for unjust reasons. In fact those that are honestly ignorant of their misstatements will truly feel guilt while those who are angry at others for race reasons will not feel guilt.

[Karenina]

98. Az, those "deliberate intents" are often buried deep.

In my experience EVEN THOSE who are simply honestly ignorant tend to GO DIRECTLY INTO DENIAL. And if they can find ANYONE with whom they can circle the wagons they will do so.

[Az]

99. I understand what you are getting at

But part of what you are experiencing may in fact be a reaction to anger rather than a malicious circling of the wagons. If you jump on a person for something it doesn't matter how innocent or nefarious it was meant as. They are going to react defensively and protect themselves. Thats human nature.

If you go into a conflict with a mindset that people cannot change or realize their mistakes then you will be right. But if you go into it ready to forgive and to educate them then you may find that you can.

[Karenina]

102. Az, I realize you don't mean to be patronizing

Do please understand that I have 50 years experience in learning ways to encourage members of the dominant society to open up, make an exception or WHATEVER it took for me to survive in their midst. The center of my socialization and education in such matters is the great good fortune of having been born into a family that "resembles the United Nations. We have EVERYBODY!" as one of my old aunts is delighted to point out. Please examine your stance that I am somehow responsible for others' bigotry or inability to confront their own biases. Then do look at double standard you've presented. Do you see it? I continue to confront my biases, as I was taught since childhood to do regularly and rigorously, and also continue to tiptoe through the tulips as the situation warrants. For me it isn't theoretical. It's everyday life.

[Az]

116. Not responsible

But rather availed to an opportunity. Do with it what you will.

[Oak2004]

101. There are similar "code words" for the disabled:

"courageous" and "inspirational".

I'm inspirational when I write a really good political argument which motivates people to take action, and I'm courageous when I publish controversial authors or speak up in spite of bogus legal threats. I am not "courageous" and "inspirational" because I wake up in the morning, or breathe roughly 20 times a minute. Unless of course, you (generic/hypothetical you) think that by virtue of my disability my life is so unworthy of living, that I am no longer fully human, that it takes unbelievable "courage" for me to get out of bed in the morning and show myself in public. And unless "inspiration" is the the name you give your feelings of subconscious (and perhaps not so subconscious) disgust with who I am and your amazement I don't think as badly of myself as you do.

[BlooInBloo]

106. I thought you were gonna say "independent".

[The Traveler]

105. Funny

I'm white, healthy, just an average kinda guy. Lots of people have called me articulate. Should I have felt slighted? :shrug:

[RiverStone]

109. Good point! Yep - its racism.

Hard to see unless your in someone else's shoes. Thanks for sharing :)

[BlooInBloo]

111. No it's not hard to see in the least....

The Fundamental Bigotry Of White Folks notwithstanding, black folks don't differ in any substantial intrinsic way from anyone else. One only has to be human to see immediately that such comments are, and intended to be, racist.

[MrSlayer]

113. People who say things like that probably haven't really dealt with many black people.

And when the stereotype doesn't hold it's surprising to them.

[Sparkly]

124. My highschool sweetheart was black, and I heard similar remarks.

When my sister got married, her new in-laws remarked how impressed they were with my boyfriend because he "uses big words and everything." :rofl: