Should pedophiles/sex offenders be allowed back into society?

[apples and oranges]

This is one example of why sex offenders should NEVER be released:

Police have arrested a registered sex offender they believe raped a 4-year-old girl at a Deseret Industries store in Sandy.

Detectives are now looking into how long he was in the store before taking and sexually assaulting the little girl and whether he could have possibly hurt anyone else. "This girl was only away from her mother for a very short time." Sgt. Troy Arnold

Sandy police Sgt. Troy Arnold says the girl was shopping with her mom around 1:30 Tuesday afternoon at the DI near 700 East and 9400 South. She asked if she could go look at the toys nearby. "This girl was only away from her mother for a very short time," Arnold told KSL Newsradio.

When the mother looked for her child, the girl was nowhere in sight. Frantically, the woman started searching for her child in the store, asking for the help of workers. "The mom then started searching the female's and male's restrooms, and when she opened the male's restroom, she discovered her daughter with the suspect," Arnold said.

Police say 41-year-old Richard Chad Randall ran as the mother screamed. Customers chased after him, out of the store and into the parking lot, where they tackled him and waited for police.

The customers held Randall on the ground until officers arrived. He was then arrested for aggravated kidnapping, rape of a child and aggravated sexual abuse of a child.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12337564

Don't tell me this pedophile/rapist can be rehabilitated!

[MrSlayer]

1. No, they should be executed.

This guy should be killed, period. Or put in prison gen pop with everyone knowing exactly what he did, which is the same as a death sentence. There is no cure, no rehabilitation for such scum. The best thing to do is to rid ourselves of them as soon as possible.

[wtmusic]

11. Cattle prods? Waterboarding? Genital shocks?

Don't hold back! You're on a roll.

[Alexander]

22. Sounds like some people here want another Abu Ghraib...

Makes me wonder why exactly they oppose the Bush administration.

[Kalyke]

42. He said nothing of the sort.

Their recidivism rate is only dwarfed by animal abusers - many of whom become child rapists.

[wtmusic]

45. So you feel being beaten to death with a broomstick by other inmates

is a humane way to die, do you?

This subject is always most illuminating.

[Kalyke]

74. It's not a humane way to die and I never said it was.

The original poster said the violator should receive the death sentence - carried out via the state. I can read. Mr. Slayer never said other prisoners should be allowed to beat the offender to death.

[wtmusic]

91. Apparently it went over your head.

"Or put in prison gen pop with everyone knowing exactly what he did, which is the same as a death sentence."

Is that justice?

[snooper2]

75. Nope, just slice their head off the proper way...

You need to go talk to some farmers some time, or spend some time on a farm. They will tell you about the occasional animal that needs to be put down due to "improper" behavior.

That's all the piece of shit in this article is..a rabid dog not worthy of anything...


Doesn't need mental help...doesn't need a "cell", needs to be put down...

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

94. As I said back in the day....

Anyone who harms one of these little ones, it would be better for him if a millstone was hanged around his neck and he were drowned at sea.

[Renew Deal]

95. Wow. You did say that.

Impressive. ;)

It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

http://bible.cc/luke/17-2.htm

[wtmusic]

102. Yeah, well that's probably why many consider you an anachronism. nt

[uncommon]

120. +1

[BoneDaddy]

168. Absolutely

with ya.

[BoneDaddy]

166. Baseball bats, truncheons, whatever suits your fancy.

[Gman]

2. I tend to agree that it is pathological

But I'm not sure what the answer is. You can't lock 'em up forever for, if anything, constitutional reasons. Then again pedophilia wasn't exactly the issue of the day in the late 1700's. Shoot 'em?

[TheWraith]

16. Actually, the recidivism rate on "sex offenders" is pretty low.

A few high profile reoffenders make the news, but the actual reoffense rate is less than 5%.

[Kalyke]

43. Sex offenders aren't always pedophiles. Geesch.

[Alexander]

49. The fascism on DU is strong tonight.

[marmar]

84. No shit. It's a bit scary.

nt

[Renew Deal]

97. Time to look up the word fascism

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fascism?&qsrc=

[Alexander]

146. Funny how your own link backs up my definition.

"A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

Advocating torture and execution without trial of certain people definitely falls under the umbrella of fascism.

Time to start thinking that maybe you don't know everything.

[BoneDaddy]

167. So is the fake moral superiority

if anyone messed with my kids, I would get medieval on them. And for you to sit back and have this air of moral high ground shows me how disconnected you are.

[Pisces]

83. Where did you pull that bullshit number out of your ass??? Pedophiles and specifically

child rapists have a very high recidivism rate. We are not talking about flashers, or 19 yr. olds that have sex with 17 yr olds. We are talking about pedophiles. There is no cure.

[TheWraith]

I got that number from reality. Also known as the United States Department of Justice.

Approximately 4,300 child molesters were released from prisons in 15 States in 1994. An estimated 3.3% of these 4,300 were rearrested for another sex crime against a child within 3 years of release from prison.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsorp94.pdf

Now cite your source for claiming anything different.

[msanthrope]

136. Damn you and your facts....

;-)

[Nuclear Unicorn]

20. I don't think cruel and unusual counts against people who are still threats

There's nothing unusual about isolating someone who is an ongoing threat to the community.

And I doubt there is anything cruel towards an adult by not allowing them to victimize a child.

DISCLAIMER: I'm uneasy about the DP but I gave my honest opinion in spite of that fact, not because of it.

[wtmusic]

46. Correct - due process doesn't apply when you're very, very scared.

[Alexander]

48. Yeah, that pesky 8th Amendment has that "doesn't count" clause...

Oh wait, it doesn't???

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

[Nuclear Unicorn]

70. I not understanding your complaint apart from semantics

The context of my statement obviously means "I do not believe it would be violation of the 8th amendment" and not as you have so grossly and unfairly mischaracterized to infer abrogation.

Suppose a man kills his wife because he doesn't want to deal with a divorce. He only had the one wife and only wanted to be rid of her in one singular instance. For all we know he would never want to harm another human being ever again. He may even be remorseful after giving the deed a second thought.

Yet, there is nothing cruel, unusual or excessive about sentencing him to life in prison...or worse.

But sex offenders--regardless of the age of their victims--display many pathological behaviors. Rape and pedophilia are more times than not acts of violence, not sex.

Amazingly, from what I'm seeing in this very thread, is that there are people arguing for leniency in ways that would get them shouted down if they dared make such excuses for the rape of full grown women.

I have to say, it's got me seriously questioning what that is all about.

[wtmusic]

96. Nice backpedal. nt

[Alexander]

148. The 8th amendment is clear - cruel and unusual punishments are not to be inflicted on ANYONE.

Regardless of how cruel or unusual their acts of violence were against others.

"Yet, there is nothing cruel, unusual or excessive about sentencing him to life in prison...or worse."

Life in prison? No. "Or worse"? The Supreme Court ruled in 1972 that the death penalty was indeed cruel and unusual punishment and banned it nationwide for four years. That same court decided Roe v. Wade a year later.

Given all the sickos posting on DU in the past few days advocating rape, torture and Hammurabi-style punishments for convicted criminals, I'd say that yes, many of those twisted fantasies are most definitely cruel and unusual punishment.

"But sex offenders--regardless of the age of their victims--display many pathological behaviors."

When a drunk peeing in the bushes can be labeled a lifelong sex offender, or an 18-year old having consensual sex with his 16-year old girlfriend, maybe it's time to stop painting all "sex offenders" with the same brush.

If you understand nuance in the slightest, you'll realize that our only choices are not simply the barbarism many DUers are advocating or letting child rapists roam free.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

164. There is indeed a difference between peeing in public and being a pedophile

But that has nothing to do with how long a pedophile should be locked away.

It's means we need to closely examine who we label as a pedophile sex offender.

We would not want to label a teenaged girl borrowing her dad's car without his permission with grand theft auto but that in and of itself says nothing about whether or not laws against car stealing should remain on the books or how those who are duly convicted shuld be punished.

I stand by my analogy. Citing an overturned SC decision does not change my underlying point. If people decide that appropriate punishment for pedophiles (not to be confused with people peeing in the bushes) is life in prison then I don't understand how that is suddenly cosidered excessive or cruel or unusual.

We put rapists away for long stretches I don't understand why pedophiles (not to be confused with people peeing in the bushes) cannot be equally punished or punished for longer periods.

And yes, the law does take into consideration the effect on the victim. That is why shoving someone doesn't carry the same penalty as beating them senseless.

[Alexander]

173. Your words: "I don't think cruel and unusual counts against people who are still threats"

My point is, yes it does. It "counts" against everyone. The 8th Amendment is clear on that. This is the original point on which I disagreed with you. One could take the very sentence you used and apply that to the tortured prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

That means we shouldn't be raping, beating to death, torturing, castrating or executing without trial convicted criminals, whatever their crimes were. Unfortunately, many of DU's lovelier revenge fetishists advocate just that.

Maybe it was a poor choice of words on your part, maybe that's not quite what you meant, and I'll accept that if that's the case.

"It's means we need to closely examine who we label as a pedophile sex offender."

Agreed.

"Citing an overturned SC decision does not change my underlying point."

Sure it does. The same exact Supreme Court that decided the death penalty was cruel and unusual punishment also decided that Roe v. Wade was constitutionally-protected. While I don't know of a single DUer supporting the repeal of Roe v. Wade, I can think of many DUers on this very thread who advocate not only the death penalty, but other horrific and barbaric punishments for criminals whose crimes did not include murder.

"If people decide that appropriate punishment for pedophiles is life in prison then I don't understand how that is suddenly cosidered excessive or cruel or unusual."

While I agree that child rapists should be kept away from society for the rest of their lives, these people are clearly mentally ill and I feel we'd be better off putting them in mental institutions. As a DUer pointed out down below, the human brain is still very unknown to us and our society would benefit a lot more by figuring out exactly what makes certain people do these horrible things.

Life in prison is not, in my view, cruel and unusual punishment, but giving these people the death penalty not only qualifies as such in my view (and in the view of the Supreme Court that decided Roe v. Wade), it also gives child rapists an incentive to murder their victims.

Unfortunately, many DUers in this thread are showing their true colors, and their complete inability to think outside of black-and-white terms.

I'm guessing many people here were appalled when Bush supporters said opposing the Iraq War meant we loved Saddam Hussein. Yet a common logical fallacy found in this thread is that if you don't support barbaric punishments against child molesters, you therefore want to protect them.

[leftstreet]

3. Doesn't DU have a forum for these kinds of threads?

If not, who do I have to sleep with to get one

:shrug:

[Codeine]

9. Yeah, some sort of Revenge Porn forum would be nice.

Quarantine this shit.

[NuclearDem]

4. As someone convicted of a sex crime and rehabilitated...

...I take offense at the idea that all sex offenders should be killed.

Yes, there are the really sick, incurable offenders who have no real chance at rehabilitation, but they deserve to be locked up away from society.

I'm living proof that someone who let his sexual urges get out of control can be rehabilitated, be it through counseling, therapy, or medication. I turned my life around, I corrected my mistakes, and I'm better for it.

We've got some bloodthirsty DUers out here tonight...

[OhioBlue]

10. Bloodthirsty for a reason.

Glad you turned your life around.

But there are many, many women and men that have been the victims or are close to someone that has. It can screw you up just like PTSD. It can take a lot of work to recover and some never do - like my cousin that committed suicide. This is an emotional, serious topic and as a victim and now a parent it is one that is very difficult to deal with on reason alone.

[wtmusic]

13. People who have difficulty with reason alone is why we have laws. nt

[NuclearDem]

15. I agree

I mean, comparing a 21 year old who let his urges get out of control (albeit consensually) with a 16 year old (as it was in my case) to a 41 year old who abducts and rapes 4 year olds is completely erroneous.

And I wouldn't give a second thought to locking someone up for good if they mentally traumatize their victim. After watching one of my high school friends walk around with just a blank stare on for months and having her break down crying at random...it's despicable.

[lunasun]

34. So many offenders claim it was consensual and there was no trauma for the underage victim

yes victim

[Alexander]

57. 16 years old is legal in some states, but not in others.

Are you suggesting the 16 year old was a victim in his case? There are several states that would disagree with you.

EDIT: Including, possibly, yours.

[proteus_lives]

55. Ah, I see.

No, if that's case you don't deserve to locked up for the rest of your life.

It's gross that you went for a teenager but hopefully you have more sense now.

[Ter]

153. "It's gross that you went for a teenager"

Suppose she was 19? Is it still "gross?" I was 21 with a 19 year old g/f once.

[proteus_lives]

157. That's not the same.

A 19 and 21 can be emotionally the same, in college together, etc.

But a 16 year-old and 21 year old are not in the same place. It's gross to go after a high-schooler when you're past that phase in your life.

[TexasObserver]

66. Far too many are classified as "sex offenders."

A 21 year old having sex with a 16 year old may be against the law in some states, but it's hardly in the category that should be made a registered sex offender.

If our laws were much more realistic and actually targeted pedophiles instead of also targeting young people between 16 and their early 20s, they'd make a lot more sense.

As with most of our criminal justice system, there is massive overkill, which means the really dangerous criminals are masked among the majority of "criminals," who pose little threat to anyone. Every day there are truly dangerous criminals let our early because room is needed for that kid who got caught selling X at a rave, or that boy who had sex with a girl 3 years younger than him.

The adults we want prosecuted, convicted, and imprisoned are the ones who are truly pedophiles. And I hope all those who want to see such people put away will either make sure the elements of proof are beyond a reasonable doubt, or reveal in jury voir dire that they cannot do so.

[Jamastiene]

151. In NC, you would not have been breaking the law.

The legal age of consent here is 16. I'd say in your case, you shouldn't even be on the sex offenders registry. That should be reserved to child molesters and rapists. I DO think there is a difference between child molesters/rapists and someone who took a whizz outside or had sex with a girlfriend, who would have been old enough in another state.

[mudplanet]

58. To make this an even more uncomfortable subject ad that the majority of sex

offenses against children are perpetrated by an family member.

[uncommon]

109. It isn't "just like PTSD" ---

it IS PTSD.

And I have known several men and women who were sexually abused as children and it destroyed their ability to function normally.

I don't give two shits if a rapist thinks he turned his life around - until he can turn THEIR lives around he better stay the fuck away from me.

[NuclearDem]

122. Thanks

I'll stay the fuck away from you then.

[uncommon]

126. Good plan.

[proteus_lives]

54. What sex crime?

Are you a pedo, rapist, what?

[NuclearDem]

79. None of the above

Just a young guy who let his hormones get out of control with some close (ish) to his own age. I realized my problem and fixed it. I don't find 10 year olds attractive, I don't get a thrill out of dominating anyone. I just had a bad lapse of judgment and got caught.

[uncommon]

110. I hope your victim had an inspirational "recovery" as well.

There is a big difference between out of control hormones and being a rapist.

[NuclearDem]

125. Well, I concede to you

You're obviously familiar with the full facts of the case and the situation, so I concede to you that I am indeed a pedorapist and deserve to be put down.

[uncommon]

127. No one said anything about pedophilia.

I just said I hope your victim had every bit as effective a recovery as you did. Somehow I doubt it.

[wtmusic]

56. Do you have to register where you live? nt

[NuclearDem]

80. Yes, I do

I live in Nebraska right now, but I'll moving back to Indiana in the near future. Both states require 25 years for my conviction.

[wtmusic]

90. IMO that really, really sucks

and well-qualifies as cruel and unusual.

Punish sex offenders - lock them up for life, in the most heinous circumstances - but once the others have paid their debt to society, they should be able to walk. With a fresh start, if not a clear conscience.

I hope it makes everyone in your community feel better about themselves to be able to stigmatize someone else. Especially those who just never got caught. :grr:

[proteus_lives]

142. Depends.

Pedos and rapists have no conscience.

Communities needed to be warned because they will most likely re-offend.

[wtmusic]

154. Blanket judgements suck too.

It's all about context. Forced registration has none.

[NuclearDem]

156. Exactly.

The guy who raped his wife is much more of a concern to a community than the guy who got drunk one night and pissed on the sidewalk.

Yet both have to register.

[proteus_lives]

158. That's why I said rapists and pedos.

And not "sex offender" because it's too vague of a term.

Read closer.

[wtmusic]

159. My post had nothing to do with rapists and pedos.

It had to do with to whom I was replying. Read closer. :eyes:

[proteus_lives]

160. You responded to my post about rapists and pedos.

So you have a problem with "blanket judgments" against them?

[snooper2]

77. Depends on what the sex crime was

If you shared some online pictures of a 12 year old..that's one thing..


If you raped a 2nd grader, you should be dead.

[NuclearDem]

81. See above

Child porn is disgusting...I would never sink to that level.

And I agree, anyone who rapes young children deserve the worst.

[uncommon]

111. Anyone who rapes anyone deserves the worst.

Those who rape children just happen to be the lowest of the low.

[Ter]

152. What did you do?

If you had sex with a 17 year old when you were 25, then it's not a big deal that's gonna make you a threat for life.

[NuclearDem]

155. I explained a few posts up

But yeah, it's along those lines.

[OhioBlue]

5. uggg!

With this story - I don't EVER want him released. My gut says "just shoot him".... but... reason has a way of coming in and pissing me off....

Reason.... this guy is an example... I don't want him ever released... but we have other examples of people that are labeled as "sex offenders" For example... is the 24 year old male that had a consensual relationship with a 16 year old female really "a sex offender"? I think he showed bad judgment but I'm not ready to write him off for society. labels have an ugly way about them....

But.. for the guy in the OP.. yeah.. I hope he is never allowed to be around the general public again.

[MadHound]

6. Depends, it should be judged on a case by case basis

You can put a blanket judgment of any kind on any group of people.

[aikoaiko]

7. There are some who should never see the light of day.

[Codeine]

8. Not all sex offenders are pedophiles. nt

[kestrel91316]

23. I think in CA if you go to a bar, get drunk, and then while walking home decide

to pee in the bushes, and have the bad luck to be seen by a cop, you are a labeled a sex offender for life. To me that's just wrong.

[Dead_Parrot]

25. Indeed. The "Sex Offender" tag...

...is applied way too often: It's in danger of becoming meaningless (rather like the "no fly" tag).

[Hugabear]

32. Or, if you're an 18yr old kid having sex with your 16yr old girlfriend

In some places, that can get you the "sex offender" label.

[Kweli4Real]

85. Especially ...

If you live in Georgia and you are Black and the girl is white.

[Codeine]

35. And the yahoos who look people like that up

and assume they've molested a two-year-old may be as dangerous as the offenders themselves.

[apples and oranges]

41. Really? Wow!

[uncommon]

113. The registries give information about the crime - at least in MA.

It will say "rape of a child under 14" or "sexual battery" or something along these lines. It's not just "SEX OFFENDER ZOMG!!11!"

[kestrel91316]

134. Yep, because the Megan's Law website isn't real clear on exactly WHAT

offense someone has committed. It's too vague.

I just don't want to see some harmless fool punished the same as some really dangerous, violent person.

[wtmusic]

47. Another reason why stigmata never fill in very well for jurisprudence. nt

[AngryAmish]

98. stigma

stigmata is having the wounds of christ

[uncommon]

112. How often does this happen? I am truly curious since it's the straw man brought out

every time a discussion of rape comes up.

[kestrel91316]

133. I've never brought it up before, so take your accusations somewhere else.

The discussion is about sex offenders and not just rapists. Go piss on somebody else's post.

[donheld]

141. That happens far too often.

[ismnotwasm]

12. I have several living in my neighborhood

My husband keeps track on-line, since we live in one of those working class neighborhoods these guys seem to end up. No problems I'm aware of, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Whether they should be 'allowed back in society' well, I guess it depends on the crime, or the number of offenses. Like, more than one?-- No, they need to stay out of society. Violent? No. Raping 4 year olds? No.

Exposing oneself at a school yard? Now there's were the law fails. This behavior tends to go relatively unpunished, and can very well accelerate to physical violence, but should they be locked up for life, or even executed?


My SIL works part-time in corrections on a special offenders unit. He doesn't think they can be rehabilitated either, but sees no solution other than execution as he feels they cost too much to warehouse and have no redeeming human value. Of note, many of the offenders he deals with are mentally ill in some way but too violent to be put in a Hospital for Mentally ill criminals. They often attempt self harm and need to be watched constantly. Generally what they've done to their victims is worse than what they do to themselves.

How I feel is that we need to understand what creates these monsters, otherwise we'll never stop creating them. I refuse to believe it's a natural part of the human condition. How this is to be done I have no fucking idea. In the meantime, we have no treatment that works, a justice system that would rather lock up pot dealers longer than pedophiles, and an inefficient tracking/follow up for the ones released.

[mudplanet]

64. If your husband works in a special offenders unit I'm surprised that you don't know

that "what creates these monsters" is other offenders. The overwhelming majority (most experts in the area will tell you 100%) of pedophiles were molested sexually when they were children, usually by a family member.

The evidence shows that, at least in America, pedophilia is "a family tradition."

For people who expose themselves for sexual gratification the act is an end in itself and not a precursor to some further sexual activity. http://www.uplink.com.au/lawlibrary/Documents/Docs/Doc81.html

Exhibitionism, which involves exposing one's genitals or sexual organs to a stranger, falls under the psychiatric sexual disorders category of paraphilias, "abnormal or unnatural attraction" or obsession with unusual sexual practices or with sexual activity involving nonconsenting or inappropriate partners.

The exhibitionist might masturbate (or fantasize about masturbating) while exposing himself but makes no further attempt at sexual activity with the stranger. The individual is sometimes aware of a desire to startle or upset the observer. At times, the individual might fantasize that the observer will become sexually aroused. Exhibitionism, though often discussed as a humorous topic, is a very serious behavior that can frighten the victim. The exhibitionist is typically male, and the victim is usually a female (adult or child), and usually an unsuspecting stranger. http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/exhibitionism

[ismnotwasm]

92. My son in law, not my husband!

We're aware of the background of most pedophiles. My SIL seems bitter and hardened, not from an inherent lack of compassion, but exposure to this type of criminal and awareness of the crimes.

The stories he tells me are often very sad, but he always has compassion for the victim, none for the criminal.

Personally I have compassion for someone who hates themselves so much they cut off their genitalia with the small piece of disposable razor they've managed to conceal. Or who cut their throat AND their arms, lengthwise, in a suicide attempt that nearly succeeds, but doesn't quite (both these are true stories)


My example of exposing oneself to a group of children was to point out the variance of of this type of crime, but I was keeping it simple-- it certainly *can* accelerate to physical behavior if you look at the background of some of these criminals.

So why one molested child grows up to molest others and the next one doesn't remains a question. There is a societal component, most likely, in how we sexualized young girls. In fact one method of treatment is to provide 'pin-up' type posters of adult women to hang on the wall of pedophiles in an attempt to redirect their fantasies. I find that a little disturbing.

[Sirveri]

14. I don't know, I'm not his pyschotherapist, nor trained to be one.

If they'll never be accepted and have to be stigmatized for the rest of their life what's the point though right. Why not just kill them, same effect.

[beyurslf]

17. We should really, as a society, at least learn the difference between a

pedophile and a sex offender. A sex offender is any one who commits any sex-related crime. This can be lots and lots and lots of things that do not include pedophilia. A pedophile is sexually attracted to and desires sex with pre-pubescent children.

It's like calling someone who speeds to work and someone who drives drunk "traffic violators" and asking what their punishment should be.

[jberryhill]

18. They Should Receive The Sentence Specified By Statute

If people are unsatisfied with the sentence specified by their state's criminal code, they should change the sentence.

This notion we have developed, of "tacking on" additional punishments to people who have already been convicted and sentenced, is IMHO a Constitutional problem.

[wtmusic]

37. A voice of sanity.

It's amazing that certain subjects are capable of turning so-called "progressives" into a lynch mob.

[Alexander]

52. Seems like the death penalty and sex offenders get DUers to bring out the pitchforks tonight.

What the hell happened to this place?

[Alexander]

19. What a loaded question. Why even bother asking? You already gave an answer.

Should child rapists be let back into society? Definitely not. However, many are, and many more are not even tried and convicted of their crimes. A good example: the Catholic church.

I had a doctor who turned out to be a pedophile, which I didn't realize after doing some research and learning he fled another part of the state and nearly lost his license. Why he not only kept his license, but was allowed to continue practicing is something that only the Arizona authorities can answer. Thankfully, I was not one of his victims.

I think people like this are mentally ill and could use a lifelong stay in a mental institution, myself.

Since I don't believe in torture or the death penalty, I don't support the barbaric and inhumane punishments many "liberal" DUers have come up with for people like this. But neither should these people be released.

On the other hand, sex offenders? That's a whole different ball game.

You can be a convicted sex offender for pissing in a back alley while drunk, or being 18 and having sex with your 16-year-old significant other. Branding someone for life over that is ridiculous.

And frankly, I think if someone is to be released from prison, they should either have full rights and privileges of other free people (including voting, housing, jobs, etc) or they should never be let out in the first place.

DU certainly sounds vicious tonight.

[applegrove]

21. No. They shouldn't be allowed to roam free unless they are chemically castrated.

And only then if they've served their full sentence.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

24. Actually some chemically castrated offenders repeat offend

They use tools to compensate for physical inability.

Like rape it's about power, violence and control, not sex.

[Blue_In_AK]

29. Sex offenses have very little to do with sex.

It's all about the power and control. Simply castrating someone is not going to remedy the power and control issue.

[applegrove]

31. Reducing their testosterone would help I bet.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

71. No, because even women commit acts of sexual violence

Again, it's about power and control.

[uncommon]

117. Rarely however.

But you are correct, it is a crime of power and violence, like other violent crimes, yet with the added likelihood of causing severe psychological harm to the victims.

[applegrove]

149. I think they already give out drugs to suppress a convicted sex abuser testosterone. I read it in

the newspaper.

[lonestarnot]

26. No. And I'm talking real pedophiles with pedovans. Not some bullshit charge

someone dreamed up for some dough.

[Terra Alta]

27. anyone who would rape a 4 year old

should be locked in a tiny cell 24 hours a day and fed only bread and water. Those people can't be rehabilitated, and should spend the rest of their life in prison.

Not all sex offenders are equal though -- a while back in my area a guy had to register as a sex offender simply for mooning someone. That's just ridiculous, IMO.

[Blue_In_AK]

28. Sex offenders and pedophiles are two entirely different categories

of criminals. I worked with sex offenders, both varieties, for a couple of years in Alaska's DOC, and they had very different dynamics going on. It's hard to explain, but whenever I got a new "client," I could tell after just a few minutes whether he was a child molester or a rapist.

Interestingly, most of the rapists had been burglars, but most of the child molesters had never been in trouble with the law before.

[Hugabear]

33. Not if you listen to the local news media

Not sure about where you are, but here in Orlando, every now and then the local news media will do "exposes" such as 'Is your plumber a sex offender? I suppose if you've ever been busted for public urination, you're supposed to live in poverty for the rest of your life?

[Odin2005]

30. No. Keep them locked up.

[MrScorpio]

36. In America? No way.

This country has neither the forbearance, willingness, or even the ability expend the effort necessary to reform ANY kind of offender, in order reintegrate them back into society.

So, you can write sex offenders completely off.

America does not believe in rehab.

[apples and oranges]

39. The child rapist went through "rehab"

Why believe in something that does not work

[MrScorpio]

44. Sure, "rehab" and just toss him back out on the streets

I have a hard time in believing that enough time and effort, with constant follow up was even available or tried.

[uncommon]

114. Why should we waste resources on someone like that?

Maybe it makes me a bad liberal, but I don't want my tax dollars spent to "rehab" someone who rapes children.

[MrScorpio]

128. You've just proven my point exactly...

If this was Denmark or Norway, "liberals" there wouldn't ever ask such a question.

But in America, our liberals would.

[uncommon]

131. Well this liberal has her own ideas about crime and justice.

Just because they don't fit your worldview, doesn't make me a fascist.

Some people the world is better off without.

[proteus_lives]

50. Not according to my family.

Several members of my family have been through rehab and the prison system.

None of them are current offenders.

So yes, it does happen in America.

[MrScorpio]

62. Thanks for some good news

We need more of it to go around.

[Dappleganger]

38. I have a very personal opinion about that.

It's a mental illness that cannot be fixed. Just like an alcoholic needs to stay away from bars, a pedo must be kept away from children.

[proteus_lives]

51. And there are two ways to keep them away from children.

Prison or death.

Nothing else works.

[Warren DeMontague]

59. Delete. Dupe.

[Kalyke]

40. Nope.

And neither should animal abusers.

The recidivism rate is nearly 100 percent for both.

Sorry - some people just can't be helped - and we should break the cycle of abuse (which is why most of these people are the way they are).

[mudplanet]

65. The recidivism rate for drunk drivers is nearly 100% and they

kill innocent people every day, including children. What should we do about them? Anyone in your family ever had a drunk driving conviction? What can be done to break this cycle of lawlessness and death?

Everyone hates child molesters and animal abusers, but just stating things that are demonstrably untrue makes one sound like a conservative. By the way, abusing animals is one of the biggest red flags in identifying children who are being sexually abused.

Also, a lot of fairly good research on this subject can be done in a simple google search (you don't have to go to graduate school). This site has good information.

In a study of the characteristics of individuals who repeatedly offend, Beier31 found that one fourth of heterosexual pedophiles (n=62) and half of homosexual and bisexual pedophiles (n=59) repeated offenses (as evidenced by repeated arrests for a sexual violation or a self-reported violation) during a 25- to 32-year period. http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/82/4/457.full

[Kalyke]

78. And they should be punished for their crimes, too.

And, nothing I said was demonstrably untrue.

Child molesters and animal abusers have a nearly 100 percent recidivism rate. Your data is only of those who were convicted. And, conviction usually leads to incarceration and/or treatment, which can reduce the rate. How many assholes do you think get convicted? Ask the Pope.

A lot of fairly good information can be done from actually paying attention, too.

[EOTE]

82. You said the recidivism rate is close to 100%, that's definitely not true.

And trying to muddy the issue by saying that those who aren't convicted DO have a 100% recidivism rate is ridiculous. So you're saying that we need to lock up the non-convicted sex offenders for life? Yeah, that makes sense. So you think all sex offenders need to be put away for life because the ones who don't get caught are all repeat offenders. That's some brilliant logic if I've ever seen it.

[mudplanet]

104. Kalyke, that's some wierd math. Sounds like reducing the deficit by cutting taxes.

[proteus_lives]

53. No. They can't be fixed.

They should be imprisoned for life or put down.

[Warren DeMontague]

60. As long as we have laws that say the drunk peeing in the bushes can be a "sex offender"

and the 18 year old HS Senior who has sex with his 16 yr. old girlfriend can be a "sex offender"...

...but the dude in the Vatican with the funny hat who, over a span of decades, helped countless ACTUAL child molesters escape prosecution and justice isn't an international fugitive with a warrant for his arrest,


this "debate" is bullshit.

[Alexander]

61. +1

[Maru Kitteh]

63. YAY CUSTOMERS!

I wonder how many "accidental" abrasions and such he ended up with before the police arrived.

[Warren Stupidity]

67. recidivism and sex offenders. Don't read if you want facts.

A 2002 study by the United States Department of Justice indicated that recidivism rates among sex offenders was 5.3%; that is, 5.3% of released sex offenders were later arrested for another sex crime. The same study mentioned that 68% of released non-sex offenders were rearrested for any crime (both sex and non-sex offenses), while 43% of the released sex offenders were rearrested for any crime (and 24% reconvicted).<2>

A collection of official studies spanning the years 1983 to 2010 across all 50 states and the federal government has been assembled <3>. This URL provides a spreadsheet and .zip file containing sources supporting the DOJ study, where the average recidivism of sex offenders committing new sex crimes since 1983 is approximately 9%, compared to the 42% average recidivism rate for all felony offenders committing any new felony offense.

According to the Office of Justice Programs of the United States Department of Justice,<3> in New York State the recidivism rates for sex offenders have been shown to be lower than any other crime except murder. Another report from the OJP that studied recidivism of prisoners released in 1994 in 15 states accounting for two-thirds of all prisoners released in the United States that year,<4> reached the same conclusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_offender

I personally want to go after Men Who Drown Kittens. Those monsters need SPECIAL TREATMENT.

[apples and oranges]

68. Do you really think all of his crimes were reported?

For every crime these perverts are caught for, they have 5 or so crimes that they got away with.

[Warren Stupidity]

69. As I said, do not let the data obscure your feelings.

[Xithras]

99. This is a subject that makes otherwise rational people lose their minds.

I've posted those numbers before. People don't care. It's a lost cause.

Even worse, posting facts will get you accused of "defending pedophiles" or "supporting child molestation".

This is a subject of particular interest to me, because my sister and I were molestation victims as kids, and I've always had an odd curiosity about the type of mental disfunction that led otherwise normal people to commit these kinds of crimes. What I've found, in my reading, is that most common assumptions about pedophiles are wrong and are completely unsupported by research. Unfortunatly, trying to educate people on this subject just makes them defensive, and often makes them wonder why you're working so hard to "defend" child molesters. It's not just that people don't understand...they don't want to understand.

It's really not worth the effort.

[wtmusic]

100. +1 nt

[uncommon]

121. In fairness,

why would anyone want to "understand" someone who rapes children? It's an unfathomable crime to most of us.

[Xithras]

130. Because you can't fix what you don't understand.

One of the things I've come to realize is that we're not talking about a "choice" crime like robbing a bank, or making meth. Pedophilia is a mental illness, like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. It's a medical condition that should be treated.

Are you aware that there is a study suggesting that as many as 1 in 5 men (and at least 1 in 20) may have some degree of pedophilic feelings? As in, a "non-zero" amount of sexual interest in prepubescent children? If that number seems high, it's only because OTHER studies have confirmed that the overwhelming majority of pedophiles never act on those feelings. They know it's wrong, and they bury it deep.

So the real question is: What's the difference between the minority who act on those feelings, and the majority who don't? We don't know, because we're still not totally certain how their mind works.

And THAT is why we need to better understand them. If we can figure out what is happening in their heads, we might have a better shot at keeping them from reoffending...or from offending in the first place.

[Warren Stupidity]

144. Because when you propose a social program that

is based on the premise "cannot be rehabilitated, always will repeat offend", it would be a good thing to actually have data that demonstrates the validity of that premise. Except of course for MEN WHO DROWN KITTENS. For them, no data is required. Boil them in oil.

[RadicalTexan]

137. This is bullshit

Most child molesters target their own family members.

How would you feel if, as a child, your touchy grandpa was put in jail after you were brave enough to A) tell; B) enter testimony, possibly in a courtroom in front of a judge, jury, and/or audience; C) face the disbelief and shaming of the rest of your family members, who typically defend the offender rather than the child, and then, after all that, the abuser is released after a paltry couple of years and is back in your family? When they molest you again, would you tell?

I don't believe these statistics at all, at least not applied to pedophiles. Pedophiles, in my experience, have a mental illness. It's a compulsion. The one I know desperately wants to be "normal," but cannot change, despite support from family, counseling, prison - everything. He's sick.

I would think the recidivism rate (of actual crimes, not convictions, which are VERY different, as I have tried to show) is more like 95%.

Of course, I have not conducted a scientific study, but from what I know of the pedophile who made my own childhood, adolescence, and early adulthood hell, I highly doubt that pedophiles can be rehabilitated.

Write me off as "emotional," if you want. I challenge you to spend one day with my uncle.

[EOTE]

139. So we need to lock up for good the ones who don't get caught.

And set free the ones who do get caught. Because, after all, the ones who do all the re-offending are the ones who don't get caught, those are the most dangerous ones. The ones who don't get caught have a very small chance of re-offending, so they can be released. I'm sure if you did conduct a scientific survey, your results would bear this out.

[Warren Stupidity]

143. never mind the data, WE KNOW THE FACTS

sorry, I insist that the data match the theory or the theory should be considered false. If you have data that disproves my theory, that sex offenders have a general recidivism rate that is lower than other felony offenders and a sex offense recidivism rate that is vastly lower than other felony recidivism rates, please do present your evidence.

[RadicalTexan]

171. One study doesn't not shine a light on the totality of child abuse in the world

Basically, I question the assumptions and parameters of this study.

I suspect the vast majority of sex offenders, and especially of pedophiles, are never caught, much less prosecuted.

Do you know any pedophiles? Have you had any in your immediate family with whom you were close for 20+ years?

You are saying my uncle is a statistical outlier. I think that's bullshit. End of conversation.

[Warren Stupidity]

172. One study?

"A collection of official studies spanning the years 1983 to 2010 across all 50 states" - other than that you make an excellent point.

Again - please provide the data that either falsifies my assertion that recidivism for sex offenses is massively low, or that substantiates your position that it massively high. If you cannot provide such data, that is fine, you are of course entitled to your opinion. That opinion would not, however, be evidence based.

[Hugabear]

145. Does that study differentiate between sex offenders and sex predators?

Seems there would be a huge difference between someone arrested for having sex with a 17-yr old, urinating in the street, etc versus someone arrested for molesting prepubescent children.

[Warren Stupidity]

163. Does the OP?

The studies cited are for felony sex offenses. The recidivism rate is massively low for felony sex offenses, despite the evidence-free assertions to the contrary.

[Kweli4Real]

72. Yes ...

The research and the facts indicate that sex offenders have a lower recidivism rate than any other crime than murder. We just hear about the most horrific cases, when they do.

[snooper2]

73. In my opinion, if a person over the age of 18 rapes anyone under 9

Automatic death penalty...period


Of the 7 or so billion people on this planet, a percentage are some really sick fuckers. No need for them around. Put their atoms back into the earth.

[madokie]

76. Of all the crimes that can be tolerated

Pedophilia is not one of them. IMHO

[Kweli4Real]

86. No one is calling for being tolerate ... n/t

[durkermaker]

87. it needs to be considered case by case

blanket classifications for groups of people doesnt have the best record in human history

and what if it was a false/mistaken accusation? it happens you know - ready to completely throw someone's rights away forever when that happens? what if you just happened to be out jogging at the wrong place at the wrong time, dressed the same as someone else?

DNA analysis of old cases has discovered countless wrongly convicted people

(and no, i would not be in any hurry to have someone who hurt a member of my family released)

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nye Bevan]

93. Yes. How *dare* someone spark a debate on an internet discussion board. (nt)

[Saboburns]

89. This topic always bums me out

I sit and watch otherwise normal, healthy people become deranged sociopaths. I see people try and out mean each other as they say all these horrible things they'd like done to these people.

But then I reckon it's because they've been taught to hate, taught to despise these people.

But it saddens me just the same.

[Rebubula]

132. Sociopathy

It is NOT sociopathic to want to bring great harm to those that deal harm to you and yours.

Illogical maybe...sociopathic - not so much

It is NOT hate to wish death upon someone that rapes your child - it is a valid emotional response. If you do not despise these so-called people, you are either lying, in complete denial or you sympathize with child rapists.

[BoneDaddy]

169. Stop being so damn naive

and understand that being fully human means that we are not loving, tolerant and understanding all the time. What you are seeing is empathy for the victim and the families of the victims in that they can FEEL what it would be like to be violated like that and what range of emotional experiences that could come from that.

This moral superiority makes me want to gag.

If someone did that to my loved one, I could become demonic.

[Mimosa]

101. Pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated

Every study has shown they are compulsive.

[durkermaker]

103. To say a class of people cant be rehabilitated contradicts the notion of personal accountability

because you're telling them they must change and that they cant change at the same time

[KamaAina]

105. Define "sex offender".

In some jurisdictions, an arrest for peeing in an alley outside a club -- "indecent exposure" -- can get you branded as a sex offender for life.

[bemildred]

106. Unthinking rage won't get you very far. nt

[durkermaker]

107. The number one reason for not giving all sex offenders life/death sentences

because then they have nothing to lose by killing all witnesses

why doesnt anyone ever think about that?!?!?!

[uncommon]

115. A bullet to the head would fix that.

I really have 0 sympathy for rapists.

[durkermaker]

116. do you really believe there is an armed policeman present at ever sex offence?

because if there isnt, the victim (and any other witnesses) will be dead

[uncommon]

118. I didn't say it was realistic -

I'd just prefer to see them dead is all.

[durkermaker]

119. but that's the danger of these 'one up' hate discussions

because some states actually did propose death penalty for child molesters, emotion took over 'game theory' in planning

and it sickened me to imagine some little girl crying and saying 'please mister, i promise i wont tell' in the last minute of her life

and it absolutely, positively WOULD happen, as the end product of people's outrage

[uncommon]

123. It already happens, a lot.

I can't give you a solution to this, other than that these people should not be allowed to mingle out and about in society. They deserve to be shunned.

[durkermaker]

124. the key to control, is to not quickly exhaust what you can threaten with

nothing to lose is a power position

[EOTE]

129. Nuanced thought is kind of tough...

when you've got nothing but blood on your mind.

[uncommon]

108. I think it's pathological. I don't think people with this kind of sickness of the brain can be fixe

d. So no, I don't think they should be allowed back into society. Any of them.

Want to be a member of a civilized society? Don't rape anyone.

That should be pretty damn easy.

[RadicalTexan]

135. My uncle is a pedophile

He cannot be rehabilitated.

He should be quarantined away from society but allowed to enjoy his natural life.

I think he has a genetic predisposition coupled with PTSD from having witnessed his own father abuse my mother when they were both children.

He has molested children, harassed children, exposed himself in public and private, and was caught driving around with Barbies, rope, and duct tape in his trunk. He has been in and out of jail (once, for a couple of years for exposing himself, and again for violating his parole by having a handgun in his possession - but my cousins called the police and reported that because, despite the fact that they were trying to help him re-enter society by letting them live at their house during his parole, he exposed himself to them, too!). He is sick, and it's compulsive. He has to act on these fantasies and desires in much the same way a drug addict has to get a fix. I have watched him my entire life.

I feel sorry for him. He's a broken human. I hate his father, but not him. But then I wonder, what happened to his father that made him turn into a sexually abusive father? I suspect there was a long cycle of abuse there.

My mother, who was abused even more tragically than my uncle, has never shown any signs of being an abuser, although she, too, has had a life limited and defined by her shitty childhood.

So, based totally on anecdotal evidence, culled from 30 years of observing my uncle (who abused me, too, of course), I don't think pedophiles can be rehabilitated. It's sad, and I feel deep mourning for the little boy he was. But if he is not able to live in society with others, his rights end. He should not be allowed to inflict a continuing cycle of abuse on others. Period.

I do not, however, think he should be castrated (mainly because I don't think there is much evidence that this is effective) or executed. I just think he should be quarantined, perhaps in some kind of low-security penal community with other offenders, who are all there for life. They can make license plates or something. I think he should receive counseling, and any medication that will help. I don't think he should be confined to a tiny cell and suffer abuse from other violent offenders. But I don't think he should be released back into general society, ever. Unfortunately, he has been back out of jail for several years. He has an ankle monitor and regular parole meetings, but I still worry about what he's up to, and I resent the fact that I cannot go back to my hometown without running into him in the damn public library.

$0.02

[NuclearDem]

138. This is the most rational post in this entire discussion I think

Kudos :fistbump:

[RadicalTexan]

170. Thanks.

I am a pretty rational person, I think. Even about this very personal and usually high-drama issue.

It's very complicated.

I firmly stand in solidarity with all survivors, but I suspect most pedophiles are also survivors. It's very tragic, but, like I said, I think their rights end when they cannot control themselves in open society.

[Jamastiene]

150. I wish my aunt was awake.

She is pro DP all the way, but on this issue, she agrees with a colony that she keeps talking about for pedophiles. I think, if I am remembering correctly, the colony is off the coast in the northwestern US. I want to say it is off the coast of either Seattle or somewhere in Oregon. It is basically what you are talking about. It is a penal colony for pedophiles and they are not allowed off the island. It is also not exactly a prison, at least not in the traditional sense. It is more like a commune on an island. There was a documentary about it years ago that my aunt saw. I have wanted to see it myself for years, because ever since she talked about it, I have wondered what they could have said to make her reconsider the DP. She used to be for the DP for all sex offenders. I wish she was awake so I could ask her exactly which state.

[laundry_queen]

162. Wish I could rec this post! nt

[devilgrrl]

140. Nope. They should be locked away for the rest of time

eom

[cynatnite]

147. An individual I heard about watched child porn and he taugh youth sports...

He confessed to law enforcement that he began having thoughts about doing things to the boys he was coaching. He quit because of this and worked to remove himself from the presence of children.

That tells me there is some potential in helping these individuals. I truly believe this is more than behavioral. I think pedophilia has a physical component that science cannot detect right now. Something in the brain perhaps.

Until there is a cure or a way to help prevent them from harming children, we have no choice but to keep a tight leash on these people.

[Rage for Order]

161. Only if they live next door to everyone who thinks they should be released into society

If people are so confident that pedophiles won't re-offend let's let the pedophiles live near those people's kids. I don't want to have to worry about them molesting my kids.

[BoneDaddy]

165. If the police break

in and you are screwing a six year old, I think they have a good argument to put you out of your misery.

Or let the family of the child do it.