Are we "on our way down?"

[LawnLover]

I read the following words in another thread about the U.S.: "Nothing lasts forever. Looks to me like we're on our way down."

I've said this before and I'll say it again:

To suggest that we're "on our way down" is ludicrous. To accept this idea is to believe that our country is worse off now than it's ever been in its history and that there's no chance of recovery.

Time to get a little perspective, folks.

We've been through much, much harder and more dire political and economic times than these. We survived secession by a good portion of the country, a massive depression in the 30's, two World Wars, an endless and bloody struggle in Vietnam in which thousands and thousands of our young men and women were killed, "Commie" witch hunts, the shootings of our children at Kent State, and most recently, a bloodless coup that allowed a handful of men to wage war and systematically rape this country.

We are much better off today than we have been many times in the past. This country is still in its infancy and is far from being on its way down. Empires may rise and fall, but generally speaking they last a bit longer than a couple hundred years and there are many, many highs and lows along the way.

Defeatism is neither productive nor attractive.

[Leftist Agitator]

1. Your post is bad and you should feel bad.

Unbridled optimism does not change reality.

[HereSince1628]

2. You are confusing 'downward' with 'worse'

I'm making no comment about where the US is, but downward is a direction of movement, and worse is a state.

Imagine having been at the pinnacle of a mountain, and then starting back homeward. With the first steps you are on your way down, even though you are much higher than you were for much of the climb up.

[LawnLover]

5. No confusion at all

We are neither moving downward or worse off than we have been in the past. And to believe we are is, to my mind, ignorant of our long, rocky history.

[HereSince1628]

6. Ok fine, have it your way.

[Extend a Hand]

7. Do you really believe that it will be possible for our children

or grandchildren to have a better standard of living than we currently have?

Given resource constraints and the globilization of world economies, continued 'growth to prosperity' doesn't seem to me to be the most likely outcome. I hope I'm wrong on that.


Dang it , sorry I meant to reply to the OP.

[Bluenorthwest]

25. Think about this. In our time, people like me actually get to have

children and grandchildren, when in the past, even in my own short lifetime, we were subject to arrest for merely gathering, our meeting places raided by your heterosexualist police forces. So you know what? For me, for mine, it is better now than it was then. Of course for you, that is not relevant, and all that matters is material goods that you hope your offspring will have access to?
Would you be willing to say to me that we should go back to when my people were being arrested and other minorities were segregated, when women had an even worse deal in society, so that your children can have a better standard of living than you do?
All of this longing for 'better times' when your kind had the rule and others were subject to great abuse is frightening to me.
I'm somewhere between the doomsayers and the OP's optimism. I know, for a fact, that change is constant, and that today is not tomorrow, even when today is the perfect day, it is going to change. Same when today is a lousy day, it will change. It will not remain the same. Waves and cycles.
My Grandpa was born a landowner, became an immigrant with nothing, built a family farm, lost it in the Great Depression, Dad went to the foster care of the time, so did the rest of the kids. It was bad. By the time I was born, Grandpa had a big farm, his children were each and every one healthy, living, and prospering more than any generation of the family had in hundreds of years. The world my Dad gave me was one of limitless possibilities, in which my own abilities defined my potential, not the town I was born in, or what Dad did for a living, or the religious group we were born into.
Up is followed by down, which is followed by up. To worship at the alter of the present moment as being the whole of time, or the indication of all things is to me, absurd.
I mean, I have known dozens of people who escaped Hitler's Germany. Many lost their entire families, everything. Entire towns were burned down. Some of those very people were vital to my early life, for they were creative forces, money makers, people who did things and made things and helped to teach the world. They had previously hidden in a pile of corpses, been chased by dogs that sort of thing. They saw their world end, actually end. So they made another one. Those people are my mentors and patterns in life, not those who feel a glitch and lay down to die.

[LawnLover]

33. A voice of reason and experience

Thank you.

[Extend a Hand]

81. you presume a lot

but regardless of your ancestory (or mine) global warming will be impacting your children and mine. Dwindling natural resourses will also be impacting our children. No amount of wishful thinking (or projecting) will change that. For the record (just in case I need to spell it out) Those 'material resources' that you think I don't need to worry about are things like clean water and fertile soil.

[CrispyQ]

18. It's not ignorance of history, it's recognition of some vital differences between now & then.

The largest voting segment in the country is the non-voters. We have a severely compromised media that has abandoned journalism in favor of sensationalist 'news' & promoting the corporate line. The younger generation is being taught how to take tests, not how to think critically. We have electronic voting & Citizens United. We are facing climate change & peak oil, yet our government continues to do the bidding of big oil.

You may disagree with our assessment, but implying that we're ignorant is an insult. Unrec.

[LawnLover]

29. Look at the media over the course of this country

and tell me it hasn't been more biased and sensationalist than neutral over the decades. Corporatism is simply another name for the Bankers/robber barons who ruled us in the past. The younger generation is no more clueless than it has been in the past and I think it's an insult to young people everywhere to suggest it is. We had ballot box stuffing and we've gone without election reform much longer than we've had it. We have been through disasters and shortages and economic troubles, yet managed to pull through and become better for it.

I'm not implying that you're ignorant. I'm saying that you're allowing this defeatism to cloud your judgment and color your perception of the past.

[CrispyQ]

78. I didn't say that today's youth are "clueless."

I said they are not being taught critical thinking skills. I should have added "...in public schools" so you would have understood my statement was a commentary on the quality of public education. Teachers are grappling with large class sizes, budget cuts, less time to plan lessons & hostile administrations. But don't take my word for it.

http://www.edweek.org/tm/articles/2010/12/01/tln_teacherswonder.html?tkn=MQQFe+a+9p+v6RJFmXSTXGfubDQJqsxolTbe&cmp=clp-edweek

snip...

My district has had massive teacher layoffs the past two years, with resulting increased class sizes. Layoffs were not based on seniority, degrees or accomplishments, but solely on student test scores and teacher evaluations. Furthermore, the district is proceeding with a pay-for-performance plan, which will go into effect at the latest in 2014. It is not following any kind of best practices research in its structure. Pay would be dependent solely on teacher "effectiveness," which every indication suggests will be based primarily on test scores.

I know that all of this is causing our most experienced, most accomplished, most prepared teachers to rethink their plans for work versus retirement. I also know that absenteeism among teachers is on the rise. At my high-needs schools, most of our teachers are very young, and I am the only nationally certified teacher. We have already had seven teachers resign since school started in August.

I've never before questioned my commitment to teaching the way I am now, and I have never felt so discouraged about the profession in general or the future of my school district or the welfare of and opportunities for our students. I'm not really ready to stop working, but I'm starting to think I've lost heart for teaching. I don't know if I can get it back.

There is something positive about all this, though. The kids aren't working in coal mines. :eyes:

[Swede]

3. K&R

The sun is gonna rise tomorrow.

[joeybee12]

4. Yes, we are headed downward...quite obviously we are...

all empires rise and fall, and you cannot say just because we're young we still have plenty of time...everything is speeding up and life goes forward.

[City Lights]

8. Yup, we're headed down.

We peaked and now we're headed down. Doesn't mean we can't recover, but we're definitely headed down now.

[LawnLover]

9. Heading down would indicate that we're in a worse place today

than we were three years ago. Do you honestly think that's true? Do you yearn for the boom era of 2001-2008?

[City Lights]

10. For me and my family, yes.

Things are tougher for us today than they were three years ago. I'm glad things are better for you, though. :-)

[LawnLover]

11. Ah, I see. That's what it boils down to

This has nothing to do with the direction of our country in general, but everything to do with you and your family.

I'm sorry for your troubled times, but it isn't all about you.

[City Lights]

15. I believe the same is true for America.

The nation is currently headed downward. As I said in my earlier post, it doesn't mean we can't recover, but I don't think we're trending upward at the moment.

[LawnLover]

19. And as I said, trending downward

would indicate that we're worse off now than we were three years ago. And that's patently untrue.

[EOTE]

42. Ummm, 3 years ago there wasn't a global economic meltdown.

Pretty much any economist would tell you that we were in better shape then. Of course, the machinations were already in place to lead us to where we are now, but things were certainly better for the bulk of families 3 years ago. Yes, we are trending downward. I don't hold out much hope for this country.

[LawnLover]

52. Three years ago we were ruled by dictators

who caused that economic meltdown and raped this country for every last cent they could get.

Now we have a President who, through his policies, managed to avoid a massive depression. I'd say we're headed in a much better direction than we were three years ago.

[EOTE]

55. Who knows what we've avoided or where we're headed.

Obama didn't do nearly enough for his stimulus and now we're looking at sustained high unemployment for several years. Unemployment is NOT going down, if anything, it's slightly leveling off for a while. We're not headed in a good direction at all. Not only that, but it seems as if from the very beginning, Obama has been intent on deflecting as much blame from republicans as possible. Bending over backward to please them only to get kicked time after time. This past election should have been a democratic victory. As much as you'd like it to be, this country is not headed in the right direction. Who knows if it ever will again. We'd certainly need a leader who has got some guts to do it, I haven't seen one in quite some time.

[LawnLover]

58. All I know at this very moment in time is

that we're better off under Obama than we were under Bush no matter how you slice it and what kind of knife you use.

Will the economy collapse? Maybe. And if it does, we'll find a way to carry on. We always do.

[EOTE]

64. We now have a president who is willing to put a bandaid on a gushing wound.

Where as the previous president was content to pick open that wound. Regardless, things are worse now than 3 years ago. For better or for worse, the wound didn't begin gushing until Obama took over. Just because we've got a better president (compared to what, exactly?), does not mean that things are still not trending worse. If anyone were truly expecting things to start getting better, we'd have needed a massive stimulus and it would have needed to be focused with great precision. We got none of that, and we're suffering as a result. Things are not getting better. Hell, things aren't even staying the same.

[LawnLover]

65. The world is NOT just economics

and the human spirit is not so weak that it can't prevail despite economic bad times. We've proven that in the past.

We may not be better off in that regard, but had we continued with the same leadership, we'd be in free fall.

[EOTE]

66. That's right, it's not. Let's see what else there is.

We've got developed world's highest incarceration rate and it's only getting higher. We've got the developed world's highest inequity of wealth as well and it's been trending worse for quite a while. And while economics isn't everything, it's hard to do much or feel good about anything when you're unemployed. And now we have to deal with things like Citizens United that make sure that actual citizens will have far less of a voice in terms of putting things back on the right track. Yes, the past 50 odd years have seen a number of good and important pieces of legislation passed. That does nothing to negate the fact that we're headed in the wrong direction and things are very bad.

[LawnLover]

67. I think you misunderstand

I'm not suggesting things aren't bad. Of course they are. I'm simply saying that things are BETTER in many ways and, as in the past when things were bad, we will prevail.

I have no problem with people pointing out that we're in trouble. I'd be worried if they didn't. But it seems to me that it is most often done with the implication that we're doomed, it's hopeless, and we might as well shoot ourselves because we're fucked.

I choose not to live my life with that attitude, thank you. I've seen proof -- through our history -- that things ultimately get better. Acknowledge the problems and tackle them. That's what we do best.

[EOTE]

70. Sigh. If this is what you call better, I'd hate to see worse.

I'd imagine it's something just before apocalyptic. You are of the opinion that pretending things aren't awful will give us the strength to carry on. I am of the opinion that suggesting things aren't awful now will just encourage our leaders to bring us past awful even quicker. You say you've seen proof, but many things we're experiencing now have never been this bad, especially considering the advances that we've seen that should be able to prevent the situation that we're in. I'm not going to allow the elites in this country to tell me that I should be happy with what I've got when they suck up more and more and leave the rest of the country with the crumbs. More than anything I want things to get better in this country and in the world. I hold out a modicum of hope for the world, but I see things getting worse in this country for some time to come. I'm going to continue to fight for it, but I'll be damned if I'm going to be putting on any rose colored glasses.

[LawnLover]

71. Take a time capsule to the sixties or the fifties

and you'll find plenty to be alarmed and depressed by.

Again, however, you mistake what I'm saying. I'm not of the opinion that we should PRETEND about anything. Things are bad. No question about it. But they've been MUCH worse and we prevailed. That's all I'm saying.

Yet despite how bad things are, there's no need to assume that our country is doomed. Many greater thinkers than you and I have thought as much many times in the past. But we're still standing.

I have a suggestion for you -- one you'll probably ignore, but I'll make it anyway:

Get away from this stuff for a while. Being surrounded by the constant negativity -- whether it's grounded in reality or not -- is not good for the soul. Take a week off from the news, DU and all the forecasts of doom and gloom. I force myself to do it once in a while because I get incredibly depressed when I'm around it too long. Depression, cynicism and defeatism are viruses that spread quickly and take no prisoners.

Refuse to give into them.

[donheld]

82. Let's see now

We elected "yes we can"/hope/change and got

Cover up the torture, continue the spying, continue tax cuts for billionaires, tax breaks for moving jobs over seas, locked in endless wars, Jobless numbers rising again, no help for climate change, millions off the unemployment rolls (99ers) with no jobs.

You be the judge. Where's the boom era from 2009 to present/future? Do you see on on the horizon?

[Speck Tater]

12. I'm sure the Romans believed that their empire would last forever too.

Guess what? It didn't. Neither will our empire. We are already in a slow-motion collapse and two things are certain:

1) Business as usual will not solve the problems we face.
2) The established powers that be will never allow anything but business as usual.

From those two simple facts it follows as a simple syllogism that the problems will not be solved. They will only get worse until the whole system collapses completely and is replaced by the next new system. Politicians only know how to tinker and reparing this system will require a great deal more than mere tinkering.

[LawnLover]

14. The Roman Empire lasted SEVERAL centuries

We've been around for a little over two.

Perhaps the analogy you chose is not the best one.

[Speck Tater]

21. I don't have to prove my point. I merely have to wait a few years and my point will be proven

by the events themselves. And it's not just the U.S. that's collapsing. It's all of western civilization.

Oh, and did you hear, the U.K. is now burning wood to generate electricity. Burning it at an unsustainable rate, BTW.

Oh, and did you hear, there is talk of merging all those too-big-to-fail banks into one giant super bank that would be too big to save, and whose collapse would certainly bring down the world economy. Those are the kind of "solutions" that are dooming us.

And if you didn't already realize it, we have passed peak oil and are on the downslope of energy availability, which means that energy costs will go nowhere but up making it more and more costly to get energy, and since energy is the chief ingredient in modern technology, that will make everything technological more expensive. So how will you lifestyle be better when your daily electricity ration is not enough to run both your air conditioner and your internet connection? What then?

Blind optimism in the face of disaster is called "denial".

[LawnLover]

23. As I've said countless times

we've been much worse off in the past, yet we've managed to survive and thrive.

Blind pessimism is pointless. Thank god not everyone says, "it's hopeless, I give up."

[Speck Tater]

27. I never said "I give up."

I say merely that I will make the best plans I can for the most probable future. To do otherwise is irresponsible.

[LawnLover]

31. Forgive me

I didn't mean to imply that you, personally, are giving up. I'm addressing the general sentiment around here lately.

It's my belief that the best plans are always those fueled by optimism, not pessimism.

[Speck Tater]

37. I admire your attitude.

If I were 50 years younger I might share it, but since I'm too old to start over I need to focus on protecting what little I have. And realistically, that means adopting a pessimistic stance. Research has shown, by the way, that pessimists are more often right than optimists. ;)

But don't make the assumption that pessimism means "gloomy". I am a very happy, upbeat person who laughs a lot and maintains a generally cheerful state of mind in spite of believing that the empire is falling apart. I'm reminded of those Tibetans who fled into exile in Nepal and India, laughing and smiling and enjoying their trek as they left behind the smoldering ruins of their former life. If the world economy takes off and everyone prospers, I will be happy. And if the world economy collapses tomorrow, I will still be happy.

[LawnLover]

43. I look at those Tibetans and think

the possibilities are endless. There is a lot to hate in this world, but the human spirit lives on.

I'm glad you're happy. And I'd love to see that happiness shared through a message of hope.

I find it interesting (and I don't include you in this) that so many come here to tell me that I'm basically full of shit and that we're completely fucked. What a sad attitude to have.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. No, but the USSR is...

And we are where the USSR was oh about oh 1987-8 or so...

[LawnLover]

47. I might have agreed with you

a few years back. Not so much now.

[COLGATE4]

13. And if you click your heels together three times and repeat "I

wish things were better" three times, it'll all come true.

[LawnLover]

16. And if you keep saying "no, no, no" forever

it becomes true and drags you down.

I'd rather say "yes."

[AnArmyVeteran]

30. 'Yes we can' if you force me to do it!

Too bad Obama didn't put that condition on all his remarks while running for office. "If you make me" will be the name of a book describing his presidency and the selling out of his entire base. It's obvious now that when he said 'Yes we can' he was talking about all of his Wall Street and business buddies. They are the only ones he's representing.

[LawnLover]

32. Is that what this is all about? Obama has disappointed you?

I'm sorry, but I'll never put my hopes and dreams into one man. They have to come from within and a willingness to carry on despite the perceived failures of a President. We've had much, much worse Presidents in the past yet managed to survive and thrive.

[bemildred]

17. Mindless optimism isn't very productive either.

We have been on the way down for 40 years now, the depressing thing is the government refuses to adapt.

[LawnLover]

20. How is it mindless optimism to look at

where we've come from to where we are and see a much better world. We have made unprecedented progress in the last 40 years socially, politically and economically. The quality of life in this country is better than it has ever been.

Are things perfect? No. Could they get better? Yes, of course.

The mindlessness comes when you throw up your hands in defeat and join the lemmings who preach doom and gloom.

[bemildred]

36. We are not in a much better world.

I was born here right after WWII, I've lived here all my life. We were once respected and feared, now we are just feared. We are awash in poverty 40 years after the "War on Poverty" began. We are awash in drugs 40 years after the "War on Drugs" began. We used to have half the world's industrial capacity, we were the world's largest creditor nation. Now we hear babble about the "service economy", we would be bankrupt if governments were allowed to be bankrupt. The political system went from dirty and underhanded to pure Orwellian babble. Our "News" media is the joke of the world. We are bogged down in two hopeless wars and dozens of small "conflicts". The people who purport to govern us are delusional, immature, ignorant, self-absorbed fakes. Have a nice day.

Edit: excuse me, I left out "unprincipled".

[LawnLover]

40. I'll refer you to this post. It's much better said than I've managed so far:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9680184&mesg_id=9680543

[bemildred]

41. That is all true, and what I said is all true.

Like I said "Mindless optimism is not very productive either". Our society HAS come a long way.

[LawnLover]

48. The words "mindless" and "optimism"

don't always have to be paired. I'm well aware of the troubles we face. That has been my whole point. We've faced much worse circumstances in the past yet have managed to prevail, thanks in large part to those who refused to give in to defeatism and gloom.

There's nothing mindless about that.

[bemildred]

50. We are on our way down, have been, I agree that it's not necessarily a permanent condition.

I see no reason at present to think it's going to get better any time soon. As long as our political/economic system remains corrupt and decadent, things will get worse.

It is true that great improvements have been made in the areas of civil and human rights for women, non-whites, gays, etc., it is the thing I am proudest of about this country. But it does not cancel out the casting of millions of our fellow citizens into poverty, into ignorance, into jail, the spineless greed which permeates our society too.

[LawnLover]

51. See, where we disagree is

that apparently you have this notion that at some point in our history our political/economic system was NOT corrupt and decadent. It always has been. From the very beginning. What's more decadent and corrupt than importing slaves from Africa in order to drive up your profit margin? The very founders of our country did this.

Despite this, we've managed to continue forward and get better as a country. We have our ups and downs and, yes, economically things are pretty bleak right now, but we've been through much worse and will, as always, prevail.

[bemildred]

54. We don't disagree about that, I agree with you about that.

We did well because we had a entire largely unexploited hemisphere to pillage, and we did. We were very good at that. You can make a good argument that our recent decline is related to the "depletion" of our local resources base, and the consequences of that. Our global hegemonic pretensions have a great deal to do with the need to go abroad to get adequate economic inputs, likewise the outsourceing and de-industrialization. Our vaunted military uses vast quantities of petroleum. Like I said before, our government does not adapt, fifty years on it is still trying to keep the old game alive. It is not going to work. They can have reform or they can have collapse a bit later on.

[LawnLover]

56. But our government can and will adapt

Of course it'll take time. It always does. But why should anyone here assume the game is almost over when our history has proven time and again that we can carry on no matter how tough things get.

I find it very interesting that I have to argue for hope and optimism, as if I'm some kind of deluded fool for believing in it.

[bemildred]

63. You assume your desired conclusion.

I can't say I blame you, but it isn't much as an argument. What history shows is that we are all ephemeral beings, that empires and nations, governments and peoples, come and go, most of them pretty quickly.

[LawnLover]

72. Of COURSE that's what history shows

But as a species we prevail and always will. But I'm not sure how you define quickly. I'm sure the Romans at various times in their long history thought their world was doomed as well, yet it took many, many lifetimes for that to happen.

What is quickly to you? A couple hundred years? Fifty?

I will be DEAD in fifty years. And while I want this country to continue to thrive and be a place where my kids and grandkids can have a good life, I can only do what I can do to help insure that, and it's possible I might fail. But I can't live my life consumed with the notion that the future is hopeless. What does that do to the quality of my life and my children's life RIGHT NOW?

You don't think that's much of an argument -- fine. But why on earth would you choose cynicism and negativity when THAT in itself is incredibly destructive?

Why not take the CONstructive path, find something to believe in and hope for and FIGHT for it, rather than come to places like DU and bitch and moan that we're almost done? That just makes no practical sense to me. It's unhealthy and unproductive.

There's no need to bury your head in the sand to be happy and have a healthy outlook. I see the shit that goes down every day and all I can think is, WE WILL DO BETTER. As we always have.

[StarsInHerHair]

80. I really despise this cotton candy sweet "optimism" which comes

from the root word that means "to see". Optometry, opthamology, optic-the OP seems to be suffering from hopeless optimism rooted in nothing. See no problem fix no problem.

[Deep13]

22. "We," the average people, have been down for a long time.

But yes, the country as a world power is on the way out too.

[LawnLover]

24. Interesting that you define us as "average"

Pretty much says it all, I guess.

[Deep13]

35. If that's a snide remark, then its meaning is lost on me.

Anyway, I mean those who are not among the ultra-rich elite class.

[LawnLover]

39. Not snide at all.

I don't think there's anything average about the people of this country, especially when you look back at our long history and the progress we've made. Average just doesn't compute.

So when you used that label, I had to wonder if you were selling us short.

[Binka]

59. No Snark Just Question...How Old Are You?

Have you ever been abroad? Do you know anything about other cultures? You keep touting this long USA history and then you digress and point out how young it is. (Your Roman Empire comment.)

The average American is below average dude.

[LawnLover]

68. Wow, what a fine attitude

"The average American is below average dude."

I'm nearing my sixties. I've traveled extensively and have not only experienced other cultures but write about them.

There is nothing below average about humans in general.

[Binka]

69. American Humans defy your assertions

Humans can be great. American humans another story.... I pity your readers.

[LawnLover]

74. And I feel sorry for you

Because my world is made up of many different types of humans (Americans and otherwise) and I would never dream of lumping them all together as you have. Your bigotry is astounding.

Yes, I suppose you should pity my readers. My stories have happy endings -- and apparently in your world that's something to frown upon.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pintobean]

77. Join the ranks

of the invisible.

[LawnLover]

83. I'm always amused when people announce they're putting someone on ignore

As if anyone really cares.

[AnArmyVeteran]

26. If it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all.

[TwilightGardener]

28. Well, the eagle's been flyin' slow, and the flag's been flyin' low, and some people say

that America's fixin' to fall...

[LawnLover]

53. America's been fixin' to fail for as long as I can remember

Or at least that's been the meme.

[laughingliberal]

34. Yes, we're on our way down. Everyone should be reading on the conditions before Argentina's crash.

And the journals about the conditions people were faced with.

Then fight those who are taking us down that road.

[WinkyDink]

38. What do we make? Look at our tax structure, our wealth disparity. There is no "there" there.

[LawnLover]

46. A small minority has most of the wealth

Has it ever really been any different in any country in the world? There are always exceptions, of course, but wealth is more often than not a lopsided affair.

Most of us will never be and never have -- in our short history -- been rich. Yet we manage to carry on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Yes, read the rise and fall of great powers

Your explanation is in there as well...it is simple actually...STEEL production.

[krabigirl]

49. We are circling the drain.

[Binka]

61. LawnLover Must Have Some Mowing To Do n/t

[Taverner]

57. Yes, but since when in our history have the two parties been working so hard to TAKE it down?

[Swamp Rat]

60. Yes, too many infiltrators who are made of teflon.

[hunter]

62. We're swimming in a toilet that's been flushed.

My university education was paid for almost entirely by the good state of California. I had an ordinary student sort of job making trashed student housing somewhat habitable again, and I remember I could drive all over the Southwest for fun without even thinking about how much the gasoline cost. For less than an hours wages I could fill the tank.

My dad had an ordinary union job, owned a house, full health and dental insurance for the family. and a good retirement plan that is comfortably supporting him and my mom today.

Thirty years later don't even ask me how much it's costing for my kids' university education, how our retirement plan is doing, or how much we spend on crappy high deductible health insurance, medical, and dental care. Accounting for inflation our family income is supposedly far greater than my parents ever was but I've got medical bills and university bills sitting on my desk right now that I can't pay. I suppose I could get off my ass and get a job as a Wal-Mart shopping cart wrangler... but wait, even if I did that and never slept it wouldn't even make a dent. Woohoo, time for PLUS again! Kaching! Pump up that bubble!

I graduated from college without any loans.

The middle class is being squeezed. We are going to end up with a working class living in poverty and an economic elite living in luxury just like any other typically crappy corrupt nation state that's ever existed.

Guess I should be thankful for cheap donkey piss beer and flat screen LCD televisions. If things get too bad I could always drink the beer, turn on the TV, and slump down on the sofa in an apolitical stupor.

[Greyhound]

73. A double whammy, a circular argument based on a false premise. n/t

[TNLib]

76. I completely agree

Personally I am better off in some ways than my parents were. I'm hoping my child will have the same or better opportunities than I did. I'm not sure if that will happen but I'm doing everything in my power to make that happen by providing the best education I can, both in the home and school.

I think as Americans we really need to start putting education first before other priorities and that starts in the home.

India focused on education and I see so many indians in our country in high paying professions. I often wonder why can't our country crank out talented IT and medical professionals the way India did. And I don't buy the fact they are all low wage earners because that's bull crap. I work side by side with some of these folks and they make very good money.

My biggest concern for America is I see way to many people in this country being willfully ignorant and there seems to be this growing trend to be proud of being stupid.

[Terry in Austin]

79. Minor point: the US is actually one of the oldest nations

>> This country is still in its infancy

Hardly. A check of the OECD countries shows only two national states older than the US: the Netherlands and the United Kingdom. (Our two predecessors in the empire business, btw, but that may just be an odd coincidence.)

Clinton referred to the US in his first inaugural address as "the world's oldest democracy." The Swiss refer to themselves as the second oldest democracy, after the US. The "young country" meme crops up often, but there's not much substance to it.

On the major point, I'd have to say, yes "we" -- meaning the imperial nation-state ruled by Washington and known as "the United States of America" -- are indeed on the way down.

That's a heck of a way to define "we," though. The real "we," apart from this national fiction, are doing okay, in terms of relative comfort and safety for most of the population. We're still above the historical norm of "poor, nasty, brutish and short" lives for the majority. We still have the benefit of fossil-fueled industrialism, although that historically-unique period is winding down and there is some definite "reversion to the mean" ahead of us.