More observance of John Lennon here than of Pearl Harbor yesterday.

[Subdivisions]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=9716938

Don't get me wrong. I have always been and will always be a John Lennon fan. But it seems as if hardly anyone cares anymore about what happened that terrible day, a day Roosevelt said would live in infamy. 2,402 personnel were killed and 1,282 were wounded that day. And it was the day that drew us into WWII. Yet it seems to have been forgotten. Imagine...that.

[uppityperson]

1. I observed it last night. I think it is an age thing, so many here weren't alive then

and it has little immediate impact whereas John Lennon was such a pop-culture thing in more recent times.

I know what you mean though.

[starroute]

30. The "infamy" part was Japan attacking without a declaration of war

And since that's become standard practice for the US in its last however-many wars, it becomes more than a bit hypocritical to commemorate the last time somebody did it to us.

Kind of makes it a day you'd prefer to forget.

[uppityperson]

36. Ignoring a past attack because the USA has attacked others more recently is wrong

It isn't hypocritical to observe or acknowledge the Pearl Harbor attacks simply because the USA has attacked other countries "without a declaration of war" since. Sorry if you feel that way, talk to my father, or an older man or woman who was alive and/or involved with Pearl Harbor or WW2

[starroute]

39. You do realize the original point wasn't just that we were attacked?

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/fdrpearlharbor.htm

Yesterday, December 7th, 1941 -- a date which will live in infamy -- the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.

The United States was at peace with that nation and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with its government and its emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific.

Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in the American island of Oahu, the Japanese ambassador to the United States and his colleague delivered to our Secretary of State a formal reply to a recent American message. And while this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or of armed attack.

It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago. During the intervening time, the Japanese government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17347-2004Apr16.html

Beginning in late December 2001, President Bush met repeatedly with Army Gen. Tommy R. Franks and his war cabinet to plan the U.S. attack on Iraq even as he and administration spokesmen insisted they were pursuing a diplomatic solution, according to a new book on the origins of the war. . . .

In 3 1/2 hours of interviews with Woodward, an assistant managing editor at The Washington Post, Bush said that the secret planning was necessary to avoid "enormous international angst and domestic speculation" and that "war is my absolute last option."


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/international/europe/27memo.html

In the weeks before the United States-led invasion of Iraq, as the United States and Britain pressed for a second United Nations resolution condemning Iraq, President Bush's public ultimatum to Saddam Hussein was blunt: Disarm or face war.

But behind closed doors, the president was certain that war was inevitable. During a private two-hour meeting in the Oval Office on Jan. 31, 2003, he made clear to Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain that he was determined to invade Iraq without the second resolution, or even if international arms inspectors failed to find unconventional weapons, said a confidential memo about the meeting written by Mr. Blair's top foreign policy adviser and reviewed by The New York Times.

[uppityperson]

46. " But it seems as if hardly anyone cares anymore about what happened that terrible day, a day..."

OP compares the Lennon remembrances with Pearl Harbor and points out that Pearl Harbor seems to have been forgotten.

To quote OP: "More observance of John Lennon here than of Pearl Harbor yesterday." "But it seems as if hardly anyone cares anymore about what happened that terrible day, a day Roosevelt said would live in infamy. 2,402 personnel were killed and 1,282 were wounded that day. And it was the day that drew us into WWII. Yet it seems to have been forgotten."

I don't want the date forgotten, unlike you who wrote "Kind of makes it a day you'd prefer to forget." Ignoring, forgetting the past is wrong in my opinion. In reply to what you wrote, I do not find it hypocritical to commemorate it simply because the USA has attacked other countries without a formal declaration of war since.

I am capable of remembering the awfulness of Pearl Harbor and believing attacking Iraq was wrong.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue_In_AK]

3. I thought it was Roosevelt who said the infamy thing?

I always think of Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7 -- but I'm old and remember people talking about it in my childhood years.

[Subdivisions]

5. You're right, my bad. I had just been reading something about Truman and I

guess his name was stuck in my head. Thanks for the correction.

[Individualist]

6. It was.

[spanone]

4. long, long time ago. many were alive when John died. few from ph

:shrug:

[HockeyMom]

10. Very true

I wasn't alive for that day of infamy, but I was in my 30's when Lennon died. I am a old lady now. Very soon there will be few of us who will even be alive when he died.

Time, and life, goes on.

[Iggo]

35. Just think: The day is coming when more people will remember where they were...

...when they heard that Kurt Cobain shot himself than where they were when that old fuddy-duddy John Lennon was murdered.

Further on down the line, more people will remember where they were on 9/11 than either of those dudes.

And 70 years after that someone may be decrying the fact that not enough young'ns are suitably reverent of 9/11.

That's the nature of time, kids. It's just one thing after another.

[HockeyMom]

48. You are right, of course

but that is the power of the WRITTEN WORD. "Never Forget". Yes, I was in NY for that too.

[ORDagnabbit]

7. considering fdr set the stage and let the attack happen

I for one am glad there's less of the myth of the unprovoked attack

[cherokeeprogressive]

8. Had I seen your OP yesterday, I would have chimed in

for better or for worse...

I was nine years a Sailor. Someday I shall go to the Arizona Memorial and I'm pretty sure I won't be able to hold back tears for those men I never knew, but feel a kinship with because we were ALL Sailors.

Peace

K & R

[Subdivisions]

9. I had a relative who was there but was not injured, thankfully. He died an old man. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

12. Good for him. Not dying per se, but dying an old man. n/t

[Subdivisions]

14. All I know of his time there was that he helped deal with the carnage. But he

never would talk much about it.

[cherokeeprogressive]

17. I would have thought that talking about such things would be cathartic in a way.

I can't say though, having never been in such a situation.

I never knew my Grandfather went ashore at Normandy until after he died 10 years ago. Go figure.

[CTyankee]

31. I remember seeing the ARizona. It was a tremendously moving experience.

I wasn't expecting it. But it happened. I couldn't help feeling such horror and sadness for these men's horrible deaths...

The memorial was wonderful in that it instilled in people a feeling of respect for the fallen on that day. It was a terrible, terrible experience for so many...I was stunned by its significance when I visited in 1999...

[Subdivisions]

33. If I ever get to Hawaii, the Arizona will be my first excursion. Thank you

for your sharing your experience, CTyankee.

[cherokeeprogressive]

40. I have to go there someday, if for no other reason than to pay respect to those who lost their lives

that day, and honor those who were injured.

Thanks for sharing.

[blondeatlast]

41. It's quite moving.

It's rather disturbing to look into the water and realize what might be down there. My dad was a Army Air Force navigator and it really disturbed me.

Do get there, you deserve it; I really felt a deep respect and mourning there.

Warning: you will see PLENTY of people laughing and having a gay old time--it really pissed me off but what are you going to do? For too many people, it's just an ordinary tourist spot. :cry:

[cherokeeprogressive]

43. I guess the hardest part will be holding my tongue while people are having a gay old time...

I'd be happy if while I was there not a word was spoken, but I know that's not going to be the case.

I think my wife and I will probably go sometime in 2011.

Thanks for sharing ;)

[madinmaryland]

11. Kicked and recommended. It's sad that he died, but it was not a defining moment for me.

I had just witness the Reagan Junta take over this country and start us on the path to destruction. Sadly, that was far more of memory than the death of John Lennon. He was only an entertainer.

[Subdivisions]

13. Thanks for the reply, mim. I think it's important to remember. n/t

[xxqqqzme]

15. ONLY an entertainer?

That's stunning!

[madinmaryland]

34. What is stunning. Yes, people enjoyed his music and thought a lot of

people looked up to him, but he did not make policy and change the direction of the country.

[DainBramaged]

16. I'll be the 7th rec

[gmoney]

18. well, the 30th Anniversary tends to draw more attention

Anniversaries and birthdays that end in 5 or 0 tend to feel more significant for some reason. I'm sure next year on the 70th anniversary of Pearl Harbor, there will be quite a lot of commemoration.

[Subdivisions]

20. You're right about the 5s and 0s. And I agree, next year being

the 70th anniversary will probably see a lot of remembrance. That had not occured to me.

Thanks for posting.

[Raine]

19. Pearl Harbor was before I was born

I remember John Lennon but still I give thought to both things.

[Subdivisions]

24. Yes, it was before I was born too. But I'm sure there are those here who lost

relatives in that attack. I just think it's important to remember it and to not let those who died be forgotten.

Thank you for your comment. :)

[xiamiam]

21. it is not that..it is that the world wants peace..lennons message resonates still today..nt

[kimi]

22. Arlington National Cemetery

is having it's "Arlington Wreath Project" this Saturday - the weekend after the anniversary of Pearl Harbor. They do this wreath-laying on thousands of graves every year, but IMO it's also to honor Pearl Harbor in a way. My son, who's 22, will go with me to volunteer on Saturday. That's how I remember Pearl Harbor, even though I was born more than 20 years after that day. It's a day that deserves to be remembered.

[AndrewP]

23. I spent the day celebrating my Mom's birthday

You make a good point. I'm just saying that everyone has their own view and experience, as you know. A lot of people are younger and disconnected from Pearl Harbor. It's something they've read about but didn't experience. It was 32 years before I was born, so it's that way to me as well.

I have no problem with John Lennon at all, but I'm not a huge fan. A fan, but not a huge one.

So for me, it was just about work and dinner with my Mom to celebrate her birthday.

[Subdivisions]

27. Well, Happy Birthday to your Mom! I hope you and her had a very nice

day together in celebration. :) :party:

[AndrewP]

29. Thanks :) n/t

[pitohui]

25. yes, ww2 was won already, the war for peace on earth...not so much, we're still fighting that

why don't people employ a little logic before they squeak up?

[H2O Man]

26. Good.

I always prefered the Beatles to Pearl Harbor.

[Subdivisions]

28. Hi there, H20 Man. I hope you're doing well these days! =)

I read with great concern of your recent health problems. And your posts were just inpirational and compelling.

[cherish44]

32. Bigger than Jesus

The very misunderstood Beatles are "bigger than Jesus" quote was a very astute observation by John Lennon. People become obsessed with popular culture over all else. I imagine 50 years from now 9/11 will be remembered as an important historic event just like Pearl Harbor or the Battle of Gettsburg were...but people will probably be talking more about entertainers and popular culture.

[bigtree]

37. ha!

Classic. Lennon was an advocate for peace and non-violence. Pearl Harbor was a testament to our need to defend our nation militarily. It makes sense that there's some conflict about highlighting the two here (if only in some abstract, unintentional form).

[Puregonzo1188]

38. Probably because more people on here actually remember John Lennon being shot than Pearl Harbor?

I mean most of the Lennon posts entailed people's personal memories. I doubt many DUers have personal memories of Pear Harbor.

[JonLP24]

49. That is all there is to it

Both were before my time so you likely didn't see me participate in either thread, sharing my memories and feelings.

[BlueIris]

42. I noticed that, and yes I did and do care about Pearl Harbor. nt

[Journeyman]

44. Let's revisit this next Thursday, when we know how many commemorated Bill of Rights Day. . .

People are more prone to respond to what is immediate in their personal lives, and don't always recognize the milestones of events that preceded their lives or which don't have pressing a call on their time. How many here recognized the historical importance of last November 6, or noted in passing it was the sesquicentennial of Abraham Lincoln's election to the Presidency, the event that proved the catalyst for the War Between the States? There may be more recognition of this come April 12, but I suspect it too may result in "little note nor long remembrance."

[karynnj]

45. This is atypical as Lennon's is a (3) "decade" anniversary

- where it is not of Pearl Harbor.

It also reflects that a large portion of people in the news media were of the generation that John Lennon was a hero to and who were not born at the time of WWII.

I suspect that 6 years from now - at the 36th anniversary of Lennon's death and the 75th of Pearl Harbor - you will hear more of Pearl Harbor.

[bananas]

47. Because we're more interested in peace than in war.

We're called anti-war, but we're really pro-peace.
Come together.
Over me.
Right now.