Comparisons in Cuba pre and post Revolution

[dipsydoodle]

The population
- Before 1959 the Cuban population was just under 7 million and life expectancy was 58 years.
In 2005 the population is 11 million and life expectancy is 77 (UNESCO’s figure).

Distribution of wealth
- Before 1959 the wealthiest 20% of the population enjoyed 58% of the country’s income. The poorest 20% received 2% of the country’s income.
In 2005 all Cubans are guaranteed their basic requirements of cheap food and the right to employment, social security, free health care and education up to and including university level.

Property and land ownership
- Before 1959 75% of the land was in the hands of 8% of the population. A handful of wealthy families owned large estates – latifundios - where they reared cattle or cultivated sugar cane. Other rural families often lived in extreme poverty. In 1956-57 a survey carried out by the Agrupación Católica Universitaria of 4000 rural families (10,000 people) revealed that 66.35% of families lived in ‘bohíos’ – thatched hovels with earthen floors.
In 2005 there is flexibility of ownership of land and property. Just over 75% of homes in Cuba have been built since 1959. Housing is 85% privately owned. The rest is let at minimal rents by the state. In 2002 just over 5% of homes were ‘bohíos’.There is a maximum limit to the area of land an individual can own. Some smallholdings are state owned, others are private and there are different types of co-operative ventures.

Living conditions
- Before 1959 only 35.2% of the Cuban population had running water and 63% had no WC facilities or latrines. 82.6% had no bathtub or shower. There were 13 small reservoirs.
In 2005 94% of the population receives good-quality drinking water. Sanitation has been a priority since the revolution and all Cubans now have WCs or latrines and are able to attend to personal hygiene in their homes. There are 240 reservoirs.
- Before 1959 just 7% of homes had electricity.
Now 95.5% of Cubans have access to electricity. Solar panels and photovoltaic
cells have been installed in schools and clinics in isolated areas.

http://www.cuba-solidarity.org.uk/revol.htm

Much more follows please read all.

[social_critic]

1. How nice

I'm Cuban, and I like to point out the pre-Cuba statistics are from 1958, or before. Because I was there, i can confirm the majority was opposed to Batista and supported the revolution (including this social critic). But what we have to do is compare Cuba before 1958 to what Cuba could have been today if Fidel hadn't made all the wrong moves he made.

You see, many of us are way ahead of the curve, we have had 50 years to give this a lot of thought, and we realize that, while the revolution was indeed needed and a good idea, what followed was riddled with mistakes and bad moves. Therefore, while your statistics may be pleasing to a left wing naif living in the USA, to those of us who have had this foremost in our conscience for so many years, and who have seen history unfold, and who have a first hand understanding of what happened, to us these statistics are hogwash.

The accomplishments of the revolution are INSUFFICIENT. We are not happy with the outcome. And neither is Raul Castro (I don't mention Fidel because he is guilty of having made the mistakes, so now he must be judged and it will be up to his brother to fix the mess he left behind).

And this is something which frankly, does not concern you or all the reddish amateurs who gather here. This is an internal thing, for our family to sort out. And we will sort it out, without gringos of the left, or of the right, telling us what to do. And I challenge any Cuban who is anywhere, be it a communist whose main interest is to keep power, or a right wing nut who just wants to make Cuba a gringo colony, to say they want to do otherwise. They weigh nothing, they are nothing, they are sold out either to greed or their own thirst for power, and they don't really care about the country or its people.

[dipsydoodle]

2. The statistics demonstrate

that the outcomes of the Revolution were for the OVERALL GOOD.

So - you can dream on with your alternative minority viewpoint.

[social_critic]

3. They really don't show overall good

It depends on the statistics you wish to use. I can pick up a different set of statistics and show they were bad. But that's not the point, comparing statistics 50 years apart is a sport for people who want to justify whatever happened.

I would also like to point out my point of view happens to be that of the majority - and I can continue to hold this point for a long time, because neither you nor any of your sidekicks can show me otherwise. I happen to be Cuban, you are not. I know what we talk about, you do not. You are an interloper, an outsider, you have no weight in these matters. I am, on the other hand, empowered by birth,things I have done, and the sacrifices I have made and continue to make, to make sure that eventually things do turn out right.

You see, there are simpler and more powerful truths than you can imagine. These are things which can be buried, but eventually resurface. And even if only one person holds in his mind the truth, then the truth exists, and it remains. And you can not obliterate it, or hide it. It exists. Your comment about "my minority viewpoint" is very telling. You can not abide by free elections, you can not ever allow for the people to express themselves openly, yet you dare claim to be the majority. What a bunch of hogwash, for those whose power derive from the barrel of the gun, everything is possible, isn't it?

[EFerrari]

6. You discredit yourself by personally attacking the poster

instead of debating the issues.

[Judi Lynn]

7. It's odd hearing somone complain about an armed revolution in a country taken by force

itself from the indigenous peoples who stretched from coast to coast, then taken from the original European government by force.

[social_critic]

8. I'm sorry Judy

but you don't have the foggiest idea of the key issue being discussed. Keep posting articles, they are nice and give us a ground for debate.

But I see you lost the thread. The idea is very simple: A comparison of statistics in Cuba pre-1958, with Cuban statistics in the 21st century is a meaningless exercise. I could take the statistics from just about any country and massage them to show today they are living better than 50 years ago.

The concept I present, which Miss Doodle can't really respond to, and which is yet so simple, is that we should not be satisfied to be ahead of 1958. Damn it, in 1958 we had a civil war precisely because the majority of the people thought batista's regime stank to high heaven. So what is the use for you to tell us how much better it is today, when so many of us felt things were so bad we had to pick up a rifle and put a hole in somebody's body to change things for the better? How many people do you think the revolution killed to take over? It wasn't a child's game, it involved a lot of sacrifice, people were burned, lost their limbs, died. Buildings were destroyed, whole towns nearly demolished. I had bombs dropped on me from batista's planes, and I still remember the bastards flying overhead and wishing I could somehow use a magic word to make them explode.

So the point, Judy, is that we are not happy with Cuba's government performance. And hollow contributions from American amateurs don't really do much in this debate. And when you show yourself to be such a monochromatic defender of the establishment, then you are being a "conservative" - you are just a leftist conservative, a preserver of the status quo, defender of those incompetents who rule as if they were geniuses, when history shows them to have so many weaknesses.

You just want to preserve the dinosaur, which we know doesn't work. And which the Cuban people themselves are about to change, whether you like it or not. The forthcoming Communist party congress is going to give your dinosaurs their marching orders, or they will be buried. Change is on, and your weight in all of what happens in the future, you poor Americans who watch through your windows, will be nothing. Like the Iraqi told Matt Damon in "Green Zone", "what happens here will be decided by Iraqis". Well, I'm telling you and Ferrari and Doodle, what happens in Cuba will be decided by Cubans. And Cubans are way beyond these bs stats.

[EFerrari]

9. Again, instead of name calling, why don't you point to specifics?

Make the case. There's no one here that wishes ill to Cuba.

[social_critic]

10. The case is made

Now you make your case. Tell me why do you think it's sensible to compare a country's statistics 50 years ago to today's? Let's look at Chile's, for example. Or let's look at Singapore's. Do you think they don't show progress in 50 years? What I would like for you guys to do is tell me, do you think it could have been done better? Or are you so focused on being supportive of the communist establishment, you can't utter a single word other than to praise your demigods?

[Mika]

11. The case is made by using some kind of yardstick.

We simply can't use Utopia as any meaningful yardstick.

In the case of national statistics, then some comparison to progress in other nations is valid. Yes, we should take a look at the progress of other nations like Chile and Singapore, to look at how progress was undertaken and how effective (in terms of reflecting the will of the people) such progress actually is. This is how we learn. By doing this we, as well as Cubans in Cuba, can see where Cuba ranks on this planet. Since the Revolution, on most counts, progress in Cuba ranks pretty well.

---

[naaman fletcher]

19. a better yardstick...

Simply saying that there is more people with running water now than 50 years of course is a silly yardstick. Perhaps a better one would be to take a basket of countries, perhaps some like Haiti and Dominican Republic, and some in Latin America, and see how each country improved over those 50 years. Then, we would be able to tell if, for example, the Cuban system was better than the systems in other countries.

[Downwinder]

16. Without the embargo, supported by Cuban immigrants,

it could be a lot better.

[Mika]

17. Too broad of a brush.

The majority of Cuban immigrants do not support the sanctions. Only an extreme minority that gets the MSM headlines.

They make a very convenient target for most Americans who are in denial over the absolute dysfunctional and corrupt-to-the-core US political system.

The sanctions on Cuba continue because it is a campaign cash cow for both sides of the policy.

No US sanctions on Cuba = no political fight over it (all stagecraft) - and the requisite campaign contributions for the mixed bag of Rs and Ds who take positions on either side depending on the viability of the topic on their campaign funding needs.

This corrupt function on both sides of the aisle needs cover. Bring on the intransigent Cuban exile minority and blame it all on them.

Broad brushing US based cuban immigrants is as off the mark as claiming that the Castros are responsible for everything in/about Cuba.

We need to expand our understanding and our dialog by truth seeking, not broad brushing to provide cover for the dysfunctional US system.


:hi:

edit: I agree w/your point that Cuba would be doing much better without the US sanctions. Most all here agree on that it should be ended.

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[Downwinder]

20. The embargo hardens the Cuban position. An example of the

territorial imperative. Having the US as an enemy strengthens the GOC position.

Politically, for its expressed goals, it is a failure.

Economically, embargo's have never been shown to be effective.

The Miami Cuban supporters of the embargo show their true colors in the suffering they impose on their countrymen.

[Mika]

21. I agree on all points.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

---

[EFerrari]

18. More name calling. That's not an argument. n/t

[dipsydoodle]

12. You volunteered to produce a different set of statistics.

What's keeping you ?

And no - some of us here have no relationship whatsoever with the vermin without whom the Revolution may not have been necessary.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

5. Thanks for posting these facts. They completely affirm other reports I've read, as well.

An astounding distance has been covered by a society driven to make life livable for those who were ignored, and exploited previously, shunned because of grotesque racism which has been steadily receding into the past with the departure of the virulent racists who exploited the descendants of the slaves imported by the colonial Spanish and later rapacious companies like United Fruit.

Can't wait until the U.S. finally retires its bizarre travel ban on U.S. citizens, so they can make that 90 mile trip to the same country you and your son both have made from the U.K. at different times. It will be FANTASTIC for U.S. Americans to finally get close enough to see the source of all those whoppers we've been fed by the Cuban "exile" hardliners and their offspring regarding Cuba.

Apparently they thought they would have all been long dead by the time U.S. Americans as a group ever made it to that country, and they would never be called liars to their misshapen faces. Ha ha ha. Sneer.

Points so well made about clean drinking water. That dovetails perfectly with material I've seen on the fact so many rural Cubans were afflicted with internal parasites. Not so hard to guess how that happened, is it?

As long as the wealthy scum had theirs, taken at the horrendous expense of others, no one else mattered. Everything in Cuba was great. Surely no one was supposed to care about the others, right?

Bookmarking your thread. Recommending. Thank you.

[CJvR]

13. Actually....

Compared to much of the world Cuba is fairly stagnate. If anything the development in the 20 years before the Castro era was even more impressive. Life expectancy rose by about as much and the per-capita growth improved by about as much as it have done under the twice as long reign of InFidel. Are we to conclude that Batista was twice as good at ruling Cuba as Castro?

http://amser.org/index.php?P=AMSER--ResourceFrame&resourceId=8710

[flamingdem]

14. The way Cuban exiles in Miami treat the Cubans on the island

indicates that Cuban exiles do not have the capacity to work out their problems and drag in outsiders as a result.

Luckily many younger Cuban-Americans are more tolerant and logical about solving the problems at hand.

The people on the island want nothing to do with the exiles and those who think like them in terms of power sharing in the future and the exiles brought it upon themselves by crapping on their own left back on the island for all these years.

And it's so common that Cuban exiles in Miami puff up and say it's a Cuban thing, we'll work it out, meanwhile they have HOISTED SOME OF THE MOST VILE POLITICAL REPRESENTATIVES ON U.S. Citizens and attempted to recreate their fascist wonderland in Miami.

So it's not just a Cuban thing. The distorted mentality of the Cuban exiles has infused U.S. politics in an extremely damaging way, and of course no Cuban exile would take any responsibility for that either.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flamingdem]

24. Sorry but you seem to be in denial about the fact that

your opinions don't matter un tin to a Cuban on the island. Plus, most visitors to Cuba are not blind to the problems
but might be able to see more than a blinded Cuban exile in terms of the situation on the ground.

Nice try to back off of your previous Miami-like positions, you are in that crowd from what you write and you are just as irritable and incapable of nuance. The middle ground is taken by the young immigrants from the island but you're probably
not supportive of them from the patterns I've seen.

Cubans from Miami etc who travel to Cuba are appreciated for what they bring and due to family ties but I'm sure from many conversations that the Cubans who tote the usual line in the USA are not welcome back to any kind of power in Cuba.

Well time will tell and at this point the dysfunction means even more stupid wasted time thanks to ya'll!

That's where SHAME should come into the picture for the destruction of one's own but the dysfunction has gone to far for that..

Believe me Cubans on the island know they were owed far more consideration and realize that Fidel is not the only one to blame
for their economic pain.

[Judi Lynn]

15. Visual comparison posted here earlier by Mika, from the World Bank:

http://thdblog.files.wordpress.com.nyud.net:8090/2007/02/cuba_system_bbc.gif
The facts speak for themselves. Many of us have been aware of Cuba's impressive accomplishments for the common good of Cubans for many years.

[social_critic]

25. On the other hand, the UN ranks Cuba very low in certain areas

"Cuba is excluded from the main Human Development Indices that the UNDP presents, namely the Human Development Index (Table 1), the Inequality-adjusted Human development Index (HDI) (Table 2) and the Multidimensional Poverty Index (Table 5) as well as the HDI Trends from 1980 to 2010 (Table 3)."

"In a new dimension of its analysis (Table 6), the UNDP brings together a variety of indicators of human “empowerment.” Cuba fares uniformly badly, and indeed worst in Latin America for many measures:

■“Democracy”: worst in Latin America;
■“Press Freedom”: worst in the world, including China;
■“Satisfaction with Freedom of Choice”: worst in Latin America, with 26% and 28% satisfaction for males and females respectively;

http://thecubaneconomy.com/articles/2010/11/still-the-%E2%80%9Cbestest%E2%80%9D-and-the-%E2%80%9Cworstest%E2%80%9D-and-maybe-the-most-opaque-cuba-in-the-2010-undp-human-development-report/

As I mentioned earlier, the question isn't whether it improved or not in the last 50 years, the question is, could it be better, and what do the Cuban people think? And there's no way to know for real what they think, is there?

[Judi Lynn]

22. Kicking.

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: