So, we and they are going to punish Obama for not getting this country

[jasi2006]

back on track in one year after decades of GOP control devastation? I don't get the people of Mass. We have become a nation of benevolence for the wealthy hate for the needy. No one would think of giving Obama at least as much time to "fix" things as Bush had to make a mess of things. Even the independents are jumping on the "everything against Obama" bandwagon. Of course, the media is giddy with following Fox's lead. OK, give country to the Palin's, the Limbaugh's, and the rest of the GOP cabal and blame it on Obama for trying to make a change. We deserve what we'll get.

[Robb]

1. Yes.

On DU, if you do not actively work to have Obama challenged in the primary, you are a "cheerleader."

[DrDan]

2. I think people are concerned that deals with big pharma and bank bailouts

are not the way to get the country back on track.

Is he really trying to "fix" things for middle-America - or just putting in another "fix" for the corporations and the wealthy.

[dkf]

3. +1

[Clio the Leo]

4. What did you think about the WH telling pharma they needed to...

.... fork over another 10 billion?

http://www.fiercepharma.com/story/pharma-may-lose-another-10b-reform/2010-01-15

And his statement about forcing banks to repay the money they were lent .... what about that?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100114/ap_on_bi_ge/us_obama_bank_fees

[zipplewrath]

6. It wasn't the White House

I might have been mildly surprised if the White House had floated that idea. But it was Congress that suggested they should come up with another $10bil. Probably easier for them to do since they were cut out of the original negotiation.

[CakeGrrl]

12. And to the OP's point, the IMMEDIATE consequence will be to give it back to the R's

People can't sidestep that fact.

If that's part of their "solution" to fixing the perceived problem of Corporatist Dems by giving them a wake-up call, I doubt it will go as they expect.

Allowing R's to climb back in power is not going to hurt the Corporatists if you truly believe them to be complete sellouts. It hurts US as usual because everything you think is going the wrong way now is going to head there even faster and to a worse degree.

[Little Star]

28. +2

Good points.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. It's baffling.

"We didn't solve the GOP's mess fast enough, so let's put the GOP back in charge." Brilliant message, American people. I lose faith in democracy sometimes.

[zipplewrath]

7. We're perpetuating it

Far from not solving it, we are perpetuating it. I could understand if they either tried and failed, or were must moving forward slowly, but from everything from bailouts to torture, their often just perpetuating what was going on on January 19th 2009.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

8. There is not one single thing in your post that's true.

Not by any measurable, objective standpoint whatsoever.

[zipplewrath]

10. Sure there is

Gitmo is not significantly different than it was on Jan 19. He reserves the right to commit torture. It had already been stopped on Jan 19. TARP was already a fact, and Tim negotiated much of it from the other side. He made no significant structural changes to it, and helped perpetuate many of the features that existed on Jan 19. We are still at war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and in the case of the latter, we have more troops there today than on Jan 19. He reserves the right to maintain indefinite detentions at his discretion. Medicare Part D still can't negotiate for lower drug prices and he has worked to ensure that this will continue for at least 10 more years. The torture photos are still unavailable and they in fact are now classified as "secret" at the SOLE authority of the Sec Def. The President of the United States went to the CIA headquarters and told the guys that committed acts of torture that he "had their backs". Single payer was cut out of any discussions or negotiations at all on HCR.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

11. *sigh*

1) Blatantly untrue - closing Gitmo doesn't happen overnight and a lot of action has been taken towards closing it.

2) TARP is a law. It was passed by Congress. A new president can't make "significant structural changes" to a passed law. It would be unconstitutional to make "significant changes" to it unilaterally. He has ensured that the vast majority of the TARP funding has been repaid.

3) We have announced a withdrawal from Iraq. It can't happen overnight either. Afghanistan was always the war we should have pursued - that has been Democratic Party policy essentially since 9/11 - so that's a very positive change in status quo, regardless of how you feel about it.

4) We don't have a final health care bill yet. Stay tuned.

5) They shouldn't be available. We know that it happened - making the photos available will do nothing but stoke outrage and serves no interests outside of voyeurism. It's entirely unnecessary.

6) No he didn't. Another blatant lie.

7) It was never a legitimate starting point. If we couldn't get a public option passed, starting at single payer would've ended any hope of reform from the beginning. Further, Obama never, ever promised a single payer system. And because of Obama's efforts, we have a bill that will eliminate the concept of pre-existing conditions and provide care to 30 million uninsured Americans, and will eliminate anti-trust practices of insurance companies.

The only point you MIGHT have is on Medicare Part D. The others are either contortions of the truth, outright lies, or turning positive decisions into negative ones.

[zipplewrath]

15. Let's Review

1) Blatantly untrue - closing Gitmo doesn't happen overnight and a lot of action has been taken towards closing it.

The only thing he is proposing is a change of address, and that is now been delayed another year.

2) TARP is a law. It was passed by Congress. A new president can't make "significant structural changes" to a passed law. It would be unconstitutional to make "significant changes" to it unilaterally. He has ensured that the vast majority of the TARP funding has been repaid.

The only thing passed was making the funds available, the rules for them were within his power to write.

3) We have announced a withdrawal from Iraq. It can't happen overnight either. Afghanistan was always the war we should have pursued - that has been Democratic Party policy essentially since 9/11 - so that's a very positive change in status quo, regardless of how you feel about it.

Bush announced a withdrawl from Iraq. There is no significant change from previous policy here other than a vague
starting date that can be continually revaluated, just like on Jan 19.

4) We don't have a final health care bill yet. Stay tuned.

We have 2 final bills, neither one particularly admirable.

5) They shouldn't be available. We know that it happened - making the photos available will do nothing but stoke outrage and serves no interests outside of voyeurism. It's entirely unnecessary.

They should absolutely be made available. He said they should be made available. They weren't available on Jan 19, they
still aren't and now it is even harder to get to them. Again, supporting my point that they are actually advancing the policies of their predecessors.

6) No he didn't. Another blatant lie.

I assume you mean the trip to the CIA. I can get the transcript for you if you want. Unless you mean reserving to the right to maintain indefinite detitions, that right he asserted during the Archives speech.

7) It was never a legitimate starting point. If we couldn't get a public option passed, starting at single payer would've ended any hope of reform from the beginning. Further, Obama never, ever promised a single payer system. And because of Obama's efforts, we have a bill that will eliminate the concept of pre-existing conditions and provide care to 30 million uninsured Americans, and will eliminate anti-trust practices of insurance companies.

It apparently was as "legitimate" as the public option. They are both gone.

And the concept of Pre-existing condition is far from "gone" but in fact is now codified that they can charge up to 300% more for one. Probably put ya in the "cadillac" status as well.

There is no guarantee of providing "care" to 30 million uninsured. Only the requirement that they purchase health insurance. If they can't afford to use it (as many insured can't right now today) they still won't get access to care.

And this is basically Romneycare, again demonstrating that predominately what they are doing is promulgating the policies of their GOP predecessors.


The only point you MIGHT have is on Medicare Part D. The others are either contortions of the truth, outright lies, or turning positive decisions into negative ones.

Only because I stopped. We could talk about how he went and defended DOMA in court, or how he continues the policy (in place on Jan 19) to running gays out of the military.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

16. The DOJ legally has to defend the government re: DOMA. And DADT is slated for repeal this year.

As for your transcript of a meeting at the CIA, go ahead and dig it out. I'll wait.

[zipplewrath]

20. No, it doesn't

They take a pass all the time. You might wanna go back to law school. And also, DOMA isn't slated for reversal "later this year" so there is ANOTHER policy being promulgated forward. You keep proving my point.

Oh, and in his own words:

"For those who carried out some of these operations within the four corners of legal opinions or guidance that had been provided from the White House, I do not think it's appropriate for them to be prosecuted."

...

"So I wanted to communicate a message yesterday to all those who overwhelmingly do so in a lawful, dedicated fashion that I have their back."

(from: <http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-President-Obama-and-King-Abdullah-of-Jordan-in-joint-press-availability>)

So, if they committed torture under the "Four corners" of the legal opinions of John Yoo and the Bush administration, he'll continue that policy under his administartion and protect those people who committed acts of torture. i.e. "has their backs".

My entire original assertion was that much of what they are doing that has them in various forms of trouble with the electorate is that they have not distinguished themselves from their predecessors, and often continued or amplified the more objectionable policies.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

21. Except those legal opinions are no longer White House policy.

So no, he would not have their back. Nice try.

[zipplewrath]

23. And they weren't Jan 19

As I keep saying, not much has changed since Jan 19 on these issues

And he's saying that those folks that committed acts of torture under those opinions that he "has their backs".

Look, you're wrong on this one. I took your challenge. Just let it go. He has openly and personally explained that he has no intention of allowing anyone who committed acts of torture, be prosecuted as long as they were operating under the protection of the Yoo/Cheney/CIA established procedures.

Furthermore, in his executive order suspending any future torture, he reserved the right to take exceptions to that order, i.e. he reserves the right to commit acts of torture at his discretion.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

25. No, I'm not wrong.

He has their backs that they won't be prosecuted for following Bush's legal advice. That's where the protection ends. That means your statement of continuing to allow torture is flatly false.

And reserving the right is a common thing for Presidents to do. It happens all the time. Unless Obama himself orders it, torture will not be allowed under this administration. But keep contorting things to fulfill your own twisted views.

[zipplewrath]

29. Yes, he has the tortures backs

That's the point. If folks committed acts of torture under Bush, Obama will defend them. Never mind that it is a violation of international law and treaty. He has reserved the right to commit future acts of torture. Read the executive order.

And all presidents DON'T reserve the right to continue to violate international. You got a cite for such a claim?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

22. And I'm not at all wrong on the DOMA/DOJ issue.

They don't take a pass when someone sues the U.S. Government. The government legally must defend itself in all cases where they are directly summoned to the courts.

[zipplewrath]

24. Unfortunately you are

They can "take a pass". They do it all the time. There is no law requiring them to defend it. They can agree with the plantif and let it go.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

26. If you say so.

That doesn't make it true. The bill that created the Department of Justice states otherwise.

[zipplewrath]

27. All comers

I'd be curious to see the language that says they have to respond to every single challenge to the law.

[gateley]

18. Hey - Nicholas and zipple -- great posts! I'm serious. Well done. nt

[Vicar In A Tutu]

34. Indeed - And I suspect all it does is pushes Democrats further to the right.

The only way the United States is going to (slowly) liberalise is by having Democrats drag it back from the far-right precipice. A slow process, yes - but look at what the GOP have done to your country, a place very close to my heart. Obama is STILL accused without question from the news media of peddling an extreme, marxist agenda. Remember the uproar about him potentially foisting some sort of malign, Stalinist message upon the nation's kids in, what, September? Plenty of schools shirked the responsibility of showing it to all students as a result! It's crazy, fucking nuts.

Obama's EXTREMELY moderate agenda is pilloried by the people who matter - those who can shout loudest and have their voices heard and listened to unfortunately aren't 'progressives' - and this feeds the people who believe in that tripe. The people who have been raised and fed on the GOP line for decades, for it is they who have dominated the corridors of power. If Obama cannot pull of his current agenda without being slammed as a far left maniac, you can't reasonably expect him to go super-liberal. He'll be destroyed which will in turn destroy ANY hope of Democrats retaining power. It needs to be done gradually, people need to slowly get their heads around this kind of thing. Once the foundations are in place, future Democrats can go a little more liberal without being crucified. And then the next one...and so on and so forth. Just as the Republicans lurched further and further towards their chosen destination, culminating in the catastrophic Bush years, which polls suggest the country - steered so far to the right by these goons - retains an affinity for, in many cases hoping for an all-out return.

Ultimately, all giving Republicans the reins again says to the powebrokers is "the United States of America wants a more right-wing administration than the one it currently has, it wants Democrats to move closer to the DeMints and the Browns and the Gingrich's of this world". That's what they see. It's like a marketing man who sees a certain type of film or music album sells and something slightly different doesn't. So you end up with the same anodyne hodge podge dominating the upper echelons of the best selling lists for an extended periord. People who want someone akin to a President Kucinich will never, ever get that if they refuse to join the agonising slow burn process of bringing the USa back from the brink of the right-wing machine it has been moulded into by the Republicans. It's not fair, in a just world it would occur overnight but it is so nonetheless, and a country so rich with inspiration and beauty deserves more.

[BklnDem75]

36. It's the instant gratification crowd

They don't want to believe the whole 'make em pay' strategy is a failed one. People actually wonder why politicians cater to more moderate Dems with such fickle support from so called progressives. The same presidents they keep using as a reference for how Obama should be are the same ones they used this strategy on. We're so much more further to the left now, aren't we?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

9. maybe the GOP have put something in the water supply like Koolaid?

I can't believe Mass would be so stupid.

[boston bean]

30. OMFG is the the Message control today??

You people certainly are fair weather friends.

MA voted for obama 65%.

Were they stupid then???

Or are they only stoopid when they don't agree with you.

God Dang stoopid librrruuuullll mass redstaters!

[HopeOverFear]

13. damn right! We're gonna punish him GOOOOD!

Then we can do the "told-ya-so" dance!!!!

It's all about the told-ya-so dance, you know!

:sarcasm:

[ProgressOnTheMove]

14. Marty let's get in the car and go back to 1994, what a year to go back to. *sigh*

People seem to get caught in the moment and feel one bill defines the whole presidency not taking into account the whole trajectory of where we are going is heading to a better place with one UK poll saying 70 percent of Afghans optimistic for the future. But that better future will never come for any of us, if we all get in the car and go back to 1994.

[jsamuel]

17. People aren't punishing Obama, exactly.

I think people are confused by the anti-corporate message the Republicans are professing right now that the Democrats usually profess. They are able to point to things that helped big corporations that Democrats did in the last year. Of course, we know Republicans have been fighting for the rich and big corporations every step of the way, but when Democrats don't follow through with their campaign rhetoric, it will come back to haunt them.

[billyoc]

19. Somehow, I think Obama will be Okay.

:eyes:

[TheKentuckian]

31. Nope but if these shadows remain unchanged he'll get hit for continuing and even expanding

on decades of the devastation. We aren't going to sell out to the corporations our way to anywhere besides a lot of poverty, debt, filthy water and air, and an emptied out Husk of what our land once was, while the ultra wealthy laugh and roll in their dragon's hoards.

I'm all for patience and even taking the incremental route when need and consequences allow but the absolute deference for big business at every turn, especially in the financial and medical sectors is simply intolerable. The insanity and deception in dealing with Wall Street is plain old unacceptable. There is absolutely no space for pussy-footing around with a lot of talk, negotiating, finger wagging, and occasional spurts of tough talk. The President should be leading a never ending assault on the forces that deny America and the world even the most basic security and stability.
Obama is timid and tepid and it is hard to think anything other than he has given Treasury a free hand to use a feathery touch. This fails our country and can be nothing other than complicit, weak, or fucking stupid and I don't buy stupid. Can't be because he gets too much information to even have a remote chance of thinking that TARP is the extent of the rabbithole as he and the administration constantly pretend when they know it is merely the very tippy-top of the iceberg and that we have about two full years of the US economy tied up into the bankers and our systemic risk has only went up since the bottom fell out.

The President has every responsibility to get out in front on this and hammer relentlessly until we end too big to fail, shut down the casinos with our money, restore the flow of commerce, and to ensure we have serious regulation and oversight before this vampire industry takes us all down.

I also believe he is obligated to at the bare minimum to set fair terms for the people in health care reform. There is no question compromise is required but in the end the least we can do and actually have reform that has any chance of one day giving America a functional system we absolutely have to end the anti-trust exemption which is insane to cast as purist or left wing since it is a basic precept of making our market economy function and is double crucial in this area where lives are literally at stake. There can be no even pretense that there will be any actual regulation of an industry that is free to act in an extraordinary fashion forbidden to all but the national pastime.

You also can't hang your hat on regulations when the enforcement is the same with the same resources and people in charge as we have in our clusterfuck now. Its also laughable to talk about regulations lacking ramifications or any process for hosed people other than being outgunned a billion to one in court and the flimsy stick of being booted from the exchange(s). First, thinking they care since they've already rejected the people in the pool already and still have the lion's share of customers available and second, thinking that someone is actually going to actually boot any big money unless the well-heeled sharks are circling for them too. How much dirt has Halliburton done? That's fucking A Right, Bubba.

National risk pools mean less repeating of infrastructure and much larger groups to spread the pain. There are no rational arguments against these, the red scare crap got enough by killing any possible public option but listening to this nonsense and costing more money to do less for the people is punking out too much and lands a serious blow on the possibility that we move even slowly toward a better system.

I've talked enough about the Max Tax-Squeeze play. Apparently, trickle down madness has fully infected all but the most "left" leaning minds and Obama has latched on to an anti-health care concept that is designed to reduce benefit packages and shift more out of pocket expenses to the consumer, which in my opinion is closer to cannibalism than reform but the unions cobbled out a good enough compromise to swallow it that will slow the creep and hopefully buy time to restore sanity and a people first mentality to health care so fuck it, the Reaganites got what they wanted and it is little sense in belaboring it but keep in mind how problems are being approached going forward is all I can say about it now.

We have a bogus "wellness" amendment that is an authoritarian trojan horse waiting to be an excuse to gouge mandated customers and is a political nightmare because it brings to life decades of faaaar Reich Wing lies about "evul libruls trying to run yer life" that also allows people to pay more for what we claimed we were going to make more accessible and affordable.

and it keeps going on and on with this health care farce, not the least of which is we are throwing people into this predatory cartel with no care at all if they will be able to scrape up the money to use it or that by systemically forcing less comprehensive coverage for all but the wealthiest that most voters will find their lot in life got worse rather than better.

Then we come to his being hell bent on privatizing education, a move that many absolutely cannot go along with and more so are completely morally obligated to fight tooth and nail regardless of personality or party and that the President will happily reach across the aisle and even give Jeb Bush a platform to advance.

and these are just some highlights. From my point of view I see a President that is working hard to clean up some of the messes left for him, others he is making even worse, and then there are even some new sewage being piped in.

Look, say you're getting married and you tell the caterer that you don't eat pork at all but on the big day the choices are ham and pork chops you aren't going to like being told that pork is the other white meat and that the sides are great. Even accounting for the last outfit you hired for your birthday serving chitterlings, you still aren't going to be happy or accepting of chops and ham.

[AuntPatsy]

32. No people and a few on this thread are punishing themselves in the long run...

silly rabbits, they have forgotten that not everyone will get the carrot in the end...just because they were promised one does not ensure they will have any left after they give em out to their close friends first...

It is a group on DU, more than obvious that they are doing whatever they can to ensure the Dem's are embarrassed and one day ousted, honestly I am blown away how blatant some are and get away with it, I have to wonder if they are just self serving we want it now types who believe not voting will get them anything they want or moles from the rush house of ignorance who have no real ability to think for themselves......


There was a thread where one dur said he was disgusted with americans....I am not sure I don't feel his pain...


we can be our own worst enemy when we allow emotional baggage to determine our course of action....sad very sad...

[firedupdem]

33. k&R! n/t

[freddie mertz]

35. Who is this "we" you speak of? The pubic has been turned off by Dems' performance.

I think they probably expected more, and better, and aren't getting it.

Great expectations have been replaced by a sense 0f (bad, corrupt) business as usual.

The HCR process exposed a lot of corruption and sleazyness among "Democrats" like Nelson, Landrieu, et al.

The White House seemed passive and indifferent to the last minute cuts and deals made in the Senate, then ended up supporting that version of the bill in public.

There is general anxiety about the economy and jobs, and the banks seem to have gotten away with murder, handing out bonuses while jacking up credit card rates and foreclosing on homes.

My sense is that there is a general, somewhat inchoate "populist" disappointment and revulsion at the state of things.

[swilton]

37. No one is blaming Obama for not solving the problems of this

country - it's that he hasn't offered any solutions - no change in direction. You could see the direction of the way things were going when he swept the Bush dirt under the rug rather than holding Bush cronies accountable. For this one act alone Obama has become complicit in the crimes of the former administration.

Then you add on to this issue, escalating in scope and magnatude the war in Afghanistan, breaking campaign promises ala not closing Guantanamo, continuing the War in Iraq, saber rattling in Yemen, the list goes on, breaking campaign promises on health care.

He squandered his mandate and majorities in both legislative houses - he was given more power than he used and has not shown leadership