Why does Obama seek consensus with every financial scammer but not teachers?

[yurbud]

As someone else posted here, Arne Duncan warned against letting teachers' unions interfere with his drive to privatize K-12 education with for profit charter schools, as if teachers were part or even all of the problem, saying http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704388304575202470081674984.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsForth">states shouldn't weakening their overhaul plans simply to win buy-ins from unions. "Watered-down proposals with lots of consensus won't win," he said, implying that democracy as well as teachers are the problem.

Even if teachers WERE the problem, on every other issue, Obama has bent over backwards to find consensus with those who CREATED problems even if it meant alienating his progressive base.

He spent far more time in the healthcare debate trying to woo Republicans with market based solutions and delivered tens of millions of new customers to the health insurance companies who created the problem in exchange for some good but modest reforms that help consumers. Progessives, particularly single payer and public option advocates, only got token input even though both would be more cost effective and cover more people than the Rube Goldberg contraption that keeps private insurance in control, and making profits from money that could be going to actual medical care.

Likewise, when it comes to Wall Street, he put the architects of the deregulation, Larry Summers and Robert Rubin, and lax regulators like Geithner, in charge of our economic policy, whose collapse they largely caused.

And on energy, in spite of good action on going green, he gave a massive gift to oil companies by opening up new areas to offshore drilling. In case you haven't noticed, they repaid that kindness with an oil spill rivaling the Exxon Valdez, and they didn't exactly thank us for prying open Iraq for them with lower prices at the pump.

Even if pubic school teachers were the problem, if he followed the model he used with these other bad actors, he would give them everything they want--smaller class size, more autonomy in the classroom, tutors, social workers, and after school programs to make up for weak families, and a diverse curriculum to keep kids hooked in who aren't necessarily fascinated by practicing for standardized tests--and only then make a token effort at the charter school ''reform.''

Hell, he would give schools a $700 billion bailout while scolding them for the error of their ways. (no one seems to take about how thirty years of Republican budget and tax priorities have resulted in schools being required to do more and more with less and less).

Instead, he is taking the very opposite approach from those other issues. Teachers are not only vilified but ignored (unlike health insurance companies, Wall Street execs, and oil companies). Non-teachers who run for-profit charter schools and administrators willing to execute the whims of this profits over pupils approach without question are in the driver's seat and no teachers can contribute let alone question what they do. They must agree, get out of the way, or be fired. And even if they agree, they might be fired wholesale anyway in an effort to break unions and bring in more inexperienced, and therefore docile, teachers.

If Obama sincerely believes teachers are bad actors, why the difference from how he treats corporate bad actors, who he puts in the driver's seat of reform? It couldn't be because no teacher's union has enough money to match in campaign contributions what the corporate interests driving for-profit reform have? How many congressman and senators leave office for cushy, high-paying jobs as teachers' union lobbyists, executives, or board members? What kind of insider stock tips could they get from teachers? ''Short chalk and buy whiteboard markers''?

Obama's ideas for K-12 education reform are identical to the Bush administration's, and in that case we did not hesitate to call it what it was: corruption. When Democrats sell out our kids like so many subprime mortgages, we should not hesitate to call that corruption too.

It seems more and more like Obama made a Faustian bargain with the financial elite: let me make some moderate reforms in a few areas, and I'll let you continue to act like a chainsaw waving serial killer in all the others. The last president who seemed to make a deal like that, Lyndon Johnson, who got the Great Society and Civil Rights in exchange for the Vietnam War, was not treated kindly by history, and Obama won't be either if he continues down this path instead of purging the cancers like Duncan from his administration and making the more radical change that is necessary to keep us from slipping into a Third World kleptocracy.

[Chulanowa]

1. Techers can't completely shut down the nation if they get miffed

There's so much goddamn wrong with the situation, all around, that I can't really say any one damn thing.

[proudohioan]

2. That was so well put.....

and it states clearly and concisely what I couldn't quite put my finger on. I have to agree with you on that one.

Thank you for the OP.

:)

[DrDan]

3. well said

[mzteris]

4. All charters schools are non-profit - and public . . .

approximately 10% are "managed by" a for profit organization. These same management co's manage traditional schools well. (The number of "for profit" managed charter schools are fewer each year.

Appx 10% of charter public schools are MANAGED by NON-profit organizations.

The rest ~80% of all charter schools - are opened and managed by local members of the community consisting of parents, teachers, school officials, and involved community members. Quite a few are opened and managed by their LOCAL SCHOOL BOARDS but run as Charters.

They seek and get teacher input constantly. Feel free to contact them with your ideas. Have you looked at the credentials of the members of the Ed board? Most have extensive backgrounds in TEACHING..

Obama's ideas are NOT "identical" to the Bush administration. Have you even READ what is actually in the new plan? Some very good ideas there. Some not-so-good - we probably disagree on which is which maybe, but then again, maybe not.

The bottom line - we all agree that the education SYSTEM needs help - in the form of money and innovation and reform. That teachers need more pay. That children need more options. Classes need to be SMALLER. That the only and most important thing is that children receive - FOR FREE - the education that they NEED.

No one vilifies "teachers". Some individuals need vilification, of course. . . but in general, no one is vilifying the "teachers". The system needs help. And the fact remains that "some teachers" don't want the changes being made. And the fact remains that "some teachers" DO want the changes being made.

Now matter how much you may disagree with and dislike the proposed changes, please don't use the "they hate children" and "they hate teachers" memes because they just aren't true.

[yurbud]

5. do you have a source for your stats on charter schools that are non-profit?

it is odd that charter schools are freed from many of the regulatory restraints of public schools it would just be easier to remove the restraints from the public schools themselves, especially when the same people proposing freedom for charter schools mandate ever greater testing constraints on public schools.

[mzteris]

10. yes, I do. . .

I post them all the time.

They are not "freed from many of the regulatory restraints of (traditional) public schools" . . they have a bit more freedom ins methodologies and approaches. . . because it is a school of "choice" - they can offer different approaches that if put into a a "regular school" - some parents would squawk!

I wish traditionals had more freedom, but the fact is, those "restraints" ARE there andn with antiquated school board laws it is very difficult to effect change. It's damn near impossible to "experiment". Having certain paramenters of a given school can be right for the kids who choose that program, but to try and implement it in a "General public" setting, and you'd have a freaking RIOT on your hands because some parents aren't going to like what it is you want to do.

I don't like "testing" - not as it exists. Charters like my son's are at a huge risk in the testing - we have a 90/10 immersion program and those programs don't "test well" in English literacy in 3rd grade. . . . so many immersions are going to 50/50 which are not as effective from most research I've seen.

I think "individualized progress" based on the student's advancement is certainly more of a step in the right direction. . . but then again, my older is at a "portfolio" school (and hs'ers do portfolio learning a lot!) My oldest had SEVERE test phobia when he was younger so "testing" was out of the question.

Freestanding 3,873 78.1%

EMO 501 10.1% (the for-profit management organizations I spoke of)

CMO 572 11.5%

http://www.publiccharters.org/dashboard/schools/page/mgmt/year/2010


oh - and while I'm posting info:


Charter Schools
White ... 559,607 ... 38.9%
Black ... 452,076 ... 31.4%
Hispanic ... 333,209 ... 23.1%
Asian ... 58,479 ... 4.1%
Other ... 36,377 ... 2.5%

Non-Charter Schools
Metrics  #  % 
White ... 25,447,887 ... 53.4%
Black ... 8,000,838 ... 16.8%
Hispanic... 10,543,987 ... 22.1%
Asian ... 2,335,948 ... 4.9%
Other ... 1,319,144 ... 2.8%

[madfloridian]

44. You are quoting from a charter school group.

Do you have other sources?

Remember when Bill Gates said that KIPP sent 95% of their kids to college? Not true at all, but he got away with just saying it.

[yurbud]

8. here in LA, the mayor took over schools to bypass school boards

[mzteris]

11. 'cause sometimes "school board"

can be a real impediment to progress...

Of course they can also be an impediment to a slide into conservatism, too...

but with the concerted effort by Republicans and fundies to "take over school boards" - I'm pretty leery of most of them lately.

[yurbud]

18. and you trust a mayor aligned with the business community more?

[mzteris]

36. not necessarily, no -

who should be "in charge", though?

And it seems easier to get rid of one "bad mayor" than a slew of sb candidates elected in their "districts" - districts usually constructed along socio-economic lines...

[yurbud]

9. here in LA a ''parents'' group gets more than half their money from real estate developer Eli Broad

that's astroturf.

Why would a real estate developer care? Charters need to lease or buy buildings or space, and the developer can grease the palms of politicians to make sure the deals put maximum taxpayer dollars in their pockets.

[mzteris]

12. Eli Broad is a self-made billionaire philanthropist

who wants to give back to the community.

Don't believe everything you read Broad haters. . .

Think about it. Do you really think this his sole ambition in life - at his age - is to "destroy america" and make children into slaves? Really? Maybe you should read more about his history and how he came to be where he is and his philosophy.

And, even if you DON"T agree with this "methods" - which is okay if you don't, please don't paint him - or other philanthropists - or those of us without a frickin' dime! - as people who "hate children and hate teachers..." we want the same things for our kids, yurbud - we just disagree on how to get there. Me? I'm convinced that if I can just debunk the misinformation out there about charter public schools, then you might not hate them so much. They've worked for 100's of thousands of children who might not have received the education they needed, otherwise.

[yurbud]

16. they don't want to destroy America--they want to own it and profit from it and anything they can't

own and profit from will be left to wither and die from neglect and lack of funding.

[mzteris]

37. "want to own and profit"...

"wither and die" - really? Do you really believe that? That OBAMA hates children? He wiggled that kid's tooth just to make it HURT, didn't he? Sadistic bastard. . .

Come on. . . while there are "some" - yes "some" diabolical @ssholes who would sell their own mothers into sex slavery, can you honestly look at the backgrounds of these people and conclude that every single one of them is just in it for themselves? Do you honestly think you're the only person in the world who "really cares" what is happening to children and to schools? Do you think that having money automatically means one is incapable of caring about others and you immediately become a self-serving @ss who will do ANYTHING for filthy lucre?

I'm sorry. I'm just not that cynical.

[mzteris]

39. who are "they"

and what do y ou know about them?

Their histories. their stories. their backgrounds. their past philanthropic pursuits. their children. their parents. their successes. their failures.

What do you actually KNOW about them? Seriously. Do you know ANYTHING other than that some people don't like some of them and has painted them with a tarred brush that disallows any dispute as to their motivations? That brook no argument about WHO they are?

What have y ou read about them? What do YOU - know? Don't really on those with bias to form your opinion about people.

[yurbud]

17. Michael Jackson gave money to children's causes too--does that mean we couldn't question

his actions either?

[mzteris]

38. Actually, I didn't. n/t

[QC]

42. Al Capone ran a very fine soup kitchen during the Great Depression. n/t

[mzteris]

43. and your point?

exactly?

[ljm2002]

51. Not sure about your stats...

...but here in Las Vegas we had one charter school administrator who was fired because he kept bringing up uncomfortable questions like, Why is our charter school routinely paying 30% of its budget to rent/lease the school space, which is owned by a PRIVATE corporation connected with the charter school, while public schools typically pay about 6-10% of their budgets for the buildings they use?

He was warned to quit bringing it up. He did not stop bringing it up and he was subsequently fired.

Now I don't know how the charter school in question is structured. I'll bet they have some real cute arrangements so that can say "But but but... we're NON-PROFIT! So that means, no possibility of anyone looking out for their own private gain! Couldn't happen! You betcha!!!"

Sorry, not buying it.

[mzteris]

55. any malfeasance should be investigated

whether in a charter or traditional school.

So you want to close 5000 schools because of a handful of people are "crooked"? Sure. That makes a lot of sense...

Charter laws - and the charters themselves - need to be well-written and enforced.

Personally, I don't like EMO's - the "for-profit" management companies - the same ones that manage traditional schools, too, you know? - Their percentages in the charter community are shrinking and I predict that in a few years, they'll be gone altogether. These particular people need to be thoroughly investigated. They sound like bad news.

Unethical people work in every industry on the planet. Get rid of the crooks. Keep the good stuff. . .

[ljm2002]

58. Where did I say I wanted to close 5000 schools?

Nowhere, that's where.

By the way: how many of our public schools are run by private companies right now? Because I don't recall running across that factoid. You seem to be basing your arguments on various surprising facts and figures - can we at least have a cite?

[mzteris]

59. So you're not anti-charter public schools?

I'm sorry. I thought you were on that bandwagon. . .

Sorry about the cites - I put up the info so often I don't even look them up anymore usually. guess I should memorize the links, too. . .

I'll have to go looking for it.

[mzteris]

60. self-delete

ooops - wrong place.

[mzteris]

61. few bits...

(this is a little dated) The first EMOs predated charter schools; they focused on district schools that they could
operate under contract from a district school board. For example, Education Alternative Inc. was
under contract to operate schools in Miami; Baltimore,; and Hartford, Connecticut, in the early
1990s. . . Until about 2000, about half of the schools Edison operated were contract schools
and half were charter schools. Since 2000 the proportion of charter schools operated by Edison
dropped sharply as it increased contractual relationships with contract schools.

http://a100educationalpolicy.pbworks.com/f/Miron_EMO_Ch...

Miron has done a lot of research - he's pretty much anti-charter, btw...

Most publications I've read are from state to state and I don't want to look for 50 of them..


Also from Miron and his group... but from 2008

http://epicpolicy.org/files/EMO0708.pdf
Schools
• Since the first Profiles report was produced for the 1997-1998 school year, the
number of schools managed by for-profit EMOs has increased from 131 to 553. In
the past few year, however, the number of schools operated by EMOs has leveled
off.
• Eighty-four percent of the 533 schools profiled are operated by large EMOs.
• Eighty-five percent of EMO-managed schools are charter schools, and 15 percent
are district schools. The number of district schools operated by EMOs declined
slightly between 2006-2007 and 2007-2008.
• The majority (60%) of EMO-managed schools profiled are primary schools.
• The number of virtual schools operated by EMOs increased to 40 in 2007-2008,
which is equivalent to 8 percent of all EMO-managed schools.


acouple of fyi's - he makes little distinction between EMO's and CMO's - maybe that's a "new thing" - EMO's are for-profit, CMO's are Non-profit... at least that's how it works in the charter sector.

Also, EMO's are declining in the Charter sector, evidently in the traditional as well. though they seem to be growing in the virtual group - which I don't like, either. (their management of same, not virtual schools...)


hmmmmmmmmm - I just had a thought. since Imagine's "non-profit status" is in dispute, I wonder where they're listed in the charter public schools stats I have? As a "forprofit" or "nonprofit" - their size really impacts the numbers. Though from what I'm reading about them, I'm leaning towards their not being in business at all. Turn the schools over to people who aren't "questionable"... Sometimes the appearance of impropriety is impropriety enough, ya know?a

[noamnety]

75. Your correlation is off.

You are correlating this incident (corruption) to the fact that it happened at a charter school. You know what they say: "Correlation does not imply causation."

The PROPER correlation is to the fact that people are often corrupt and those in power often have opportunity to commit crimes. That's true of many organizations - the charter school structure isn't the cause.

From Detroit, in an ongoing slew of corruption investigations: "The school board filed suit against the defendants and others in 2008, alleging the risk management department issued $45 million in improper wire transfers to vendors who did little or no work.

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100428/METRO/4280413/Two-ex-Detroit-school-officials--vendors-indicted-in-fraud#ixzz0mk7IUSEB"

Now I don't know how the public schools in question are structured. I'll bet they have some real cute arrangements so they can say "But but but... we're NON-PROFIT! So that means, no possibility of anyone looking out for their own private gain! Couldn't happen! You betcha!!!"

[salguine]

6. 'Cause teachers aren't obscenely wealthy.

[Kltpzyxm]

25. wnner. winner.

follow the money, always.

[GreenPartyVoter]

71. +1,000,000!!!

[QC]

7. Financial scammers have more money. n/t

[DailyGrind51]

13. Obama knows public school teachers can be replaced.

Not only is there a glut of certified teachers who can't find available positions, there are private schools actively recruiting new students.

http://forums.atozteacherstuff.com/showthread.php?t=58905

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7013934

http://www.4marks.com/articles/details.html?article_id=1658

[boppers]

14. Teachers want to repay 700 billion in loans made to them?

Teachers want pay caps, and be forced to pay back a portion of their salary when students fail?
Teachers want to eliminate tenure, arbitration, and be treated as at-will employees?
Teachers want unions eliminated?

What?

If teachers *have* been clamoring to be treated to the same kind of environment that dominates for-profit corporations, I certainly haven't seen it.

If anything, the opposite is true, with calls for less regulation, and more open-ended investment, along with job protections no matter how great their failures are.

[yurbud]

19. how many kids from single or absentee parent families could you manage in one classroom?

[boppers]

22. 25-35, depending on age, regional social norms, facilities, (etc.).

Lots of variables have to be guessed at in your question (I guessed that "kids" mean K-12, for example).

Optimally (for the most intensive instruction), only 3-5, but our public education system isn't structured that way.

[yurbud]

24. one of the advantage of private schools is small class size--even a past GOP gov of CA admitted that

but that doesn't fit with the agenda of privatizing and cutting taxes on the wealthy.

My wife is a teacher, I had my credential before I started teaching college, and many of my college friends became teachers.

If you think you can handle 35 kids who don't want to be there and are more worried about the kid that's going to kick their ass after school, the meth lab in their house, or who they are going have sex or get high with, you should try it.

[boppers]

30. Like I said, I was guessing at variables.

"If you think you can handle 35 kids who don't want to be there and are more worried about the kid that's going to kick their ass after school, the meth lab in their house, or who they are going have sex or get high with, you should try it."

No thanks, if the bulk of a group are in such circumstances, I'd say 15-20 would be the *absolute maximum*. Anything more and it's bad for the students, and the teachers. The harder a kid's conditions are, the more work needs to be done, and once people get over-worked, they're much less capable of doing the baseline amount of work.

[yurbud]

35. we agree then. So there is a basis for public based public school reform.

[boppers]

41. Charters can, and have, taught us a lot.

The disagreements seem to be about what are acceptable experiments in reform should be conducted, and how the results should be applied.

For example, if a Charter, in a specific area, with a specific method, has great results with 15 kids per class:
1) More charters with 15 kids per class?
2) Public schools with 15 kids per class?
3) Change the method, but not class sizes?
4) Apply the method to all areas?
5) Apply the class size to all areas?

(etc.)

[yurbud]

47. public schools know most of the stuff charters are doing but are constrained by budgets...

state mandated curriculum, and the testing insanity.

Teachers don't get to decide what size classes are although teachers unions try to negotiate smaller classes.

But if Republicans have hamstrung the tax base they way they have here in California, districts can't reduce class size even if they want to.

[boppers]

49. Pulling numbers...

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/fd/ec/

Has downloadable chunks....

Looking deeper into the numbers, CA education workers get *amazing* benefits to not work anymore, and that's a huge chunk of the education budget.

[mzteris]

63. sooooooooooo -

just 'cause traditional public schools can't , charter public schools shouldn't be allowed to change, either?

That's one of the reasons charters were established and proliferate, the ability to make those damn changes that everyone and his brother WANTS made in the traditional system, but doesn't seem to get done, ya know?

[yurbud]

20. Which teachers outsourced your job, stole your pension, foreclosed your house, and tanked the world

economy?

[boppers]

23. Broad brush generalizations work two ways, I guess.

Which corporate workers abuse and molest children, blame their poor productivity on bad parenting, refuse to put in extra hours, and create generations of uneducated and unskilled workers?

Ideally, none, but hey, if we're generalizing.

[yurbud]

27. if teachers don't put in extra hours they are screwed in the classroom and fired in short order.

[boppers]

31. "Extra hours" is relative to one's field, and personal goals and discipline.

Some assume that one hour a day of "extra" work, after a six hour day, is a sacrifice.

Others assume that eight hours a day of "extra" work, after an eight hour day, is a standard job requirement.

I've seen both in teachers. However, I did not see any of them get fired. Maybe it was a matter of local circumstances.

[yurbud]

34. most teachers do far more than an hour and take work home with them

[boppers]

40. most workers do far more than an hour and take work home with them

Nobody gets a medal for doing the same thing as everybody else is doing.

[joeglow3]

52. Not in my experience

I have multiple friends in the teaching profession and they would get eaten alive in my previous profession (public accounting) -

- No Summer break
- Average of 45 hours a week for slow times during year (5-6 months)
- Average of 55-65 hours a week for medium times (4-5 months)
- Average of 80-100 hours a week for busy times (2 months).

I have never met a teacher that got up at 7, was at work by 8, left the office at 3 in morning and then repeated this 7-8 days in a row, followed by a 10 hour day to catch up on sleep and then a repeat. Do this for a month and a half and then try to tell me you have experience anything like this. At the while, making pretty much the exact same as the teachers I graduated from college with.

[LWolf]

62. I'm sorry you never met me.

I'm up at 4:30 am. I'm at work by 6:30 am; School starts at 9:00. I'm at work until 6:00 pm, with at least 2 nights a week closer to 7pm. I get a 30 minute lunch break at 11:30 in the morning. I get no other break at any time during school hours, and no official break for the rest of the time that I'm there, although I'm free to run to the bathroom before and after school, as long as I'm not in a meeting.

During that time, in addition to planning instruction, teaching, grading, and keeping up with mountains of paperwork and documentation, I attend at least one meeting every day, and answer emails and phone calls from parents every day. I deal, not only with adolescents who have other agendas besides learning, but with students with disabilities, students who don't speak english, students who are afraid of their parents, some for good reason, students who are homeless, students who have profound learning disabilities, students who have severe emotional and social disabilities, parents who are wonderful, parents who are reasonable, parents who care, parents who don't, parents who aren't ever there for their kids, and parents who want to blame me for every problem their child has ever had since birth.

I have to take classes and attend professional development to keep renewing my license; that's what I do with all that time off. It costs.

If I want my room organized, my files organized, and comprehensive plans for the year, it also happens over the summer...unpaid. There are too many meetings and too little time during the school year to keep up with everything.

And I don't know anyone in public accounting that wouldn't be eaten alive in my profession.

As a matter of fact, I'd like to see every last critic out there try to do my job for one term. It would be the most entertaining reality tv ever broadcast, if viewers could get over the wasting of student time and public money.

[boppers]

66. I got to teach a 3rd grade class one day. Wasn't so bad.

In every profession, it seems there are some folks who live and breathe their work...

And others who just do the bare minimum.

WRT your reality TV challenge, I know a whole pile of programmers who might be willing to take on that test. 75 hour work-weeks are hard, 75 hour work days are harder.

[LWolf]

72. One day...

Did you have to prepare lessons before the day started, grade and record when the school day ended, attend meetings, or talk to parents that day?

Were you by yourself in there, or was there another teacher supervising or assisting?

imo: The time spent directly with students, even in middle school, is the best part.

[joeglow3]

69. Ironically, I spent a year and a half in education in college

Fortunately, the school I was at (UNL) has you student teaching in your first semester. I assure you, all three schools I was at were a frigging cake walk that I could do in my sleep.

And ironically, by my accounting, the hours you listed equated to what I experience in most GOOD weeks, plus I get no summers or breaks (and CPA's have annual CPE's they get to pay for as well).

[LWolf]

73. I remember student teaching.

I wasn't required to do all of the things the contracted teacher was.

Tell me: are you responsible for managing large crowds of other people's children during all of those hours? Is your time scheduled to the minute all day long? Do you get breaks?

What takes more energy?

Do you really work for more than 12 hours a day in most GOOD weeks?

[joeglow3]

76. In most good weeks, I work 10 hours a day

I get in the office at 7:30 and usually leave at around 6 (taking 30 minutes for lunch). Again, this accounts for about 6 months of the year. For about 4 months of the year, I average 11-11.5 hours a day. The remaining 2 months of the year, I average 12-13 hours a day plus weekends.

Keep in mind I don't get anything off at Christmas or summer breaks.

That said, I commend you for being a dedicated teacher. A friend of ours recently switched schools and she is very frustrated because the average teacher at her new grade school leaves by 4 at the latest and have 1-2 planning periods each day. I know the same is also true at the school our son attends.

[LWolf]

77. You illustrate a point that goes unrecognized so often.

Schools are not the same across the nation, or even across states or districts. And neither are the teachers staffing them. Yet, in a public conversation about teachers and schools, there is an underlying assumption that they are all the same.

The majority of teachers I've worked with during my career have always put in long hours...hours which, I should point out, go well beyond their paid contractual day. Not all, though. Among teachers, the argument is usually this:

Do we allow districts to depend on unpaid time to keep things running, or do we hold them to the letter of the contract, and expect them to pay for work done outside that contract? Our contract is for a certain number of days, and a certain number of hours on those days. All of that time off is unpaid time off. Or unpaid time at work, when we put in the time.

I can argue both sides of that one, and have. For many of us, what usually becomes the bottom line is the reason we become teachers: to serve students. And when that requires extra unpaid time, or paying for supplies out of our pocket, many of us do just that.

This school year, I'm paid to work a 40 hour week throughout the school year, with a week before school starts and a day after school ends. I've been working an average of 50 hours per week all year, spent the entire month of August at school packing, moving, and unpacking my room without pay. I have to have the room packed and moved out by that last day of work; even packing a lot ahead of time, and running class the last couple of weeks in a packed classroom, it will take me longer than a day to finish that job. This time, because of repairs and renovations, my stuff will be in the gym and I'll be called when there is a room to move it to...again unpaid. I expect to put in, between moving, unpacking, and planning, about 4 weeks unpaid over the summer.

The public doesn't really see the unpaid time. They don't see the time outside of the instructual day, and they really don't see the time outside the paid contract.

[yurbud]

21. why do you think people go into teaching?

[boppers]

28. I think there are lots of reasons.

In my close circle:

My best teenage friend went in to make sure the system could engage folks like her, so they didn't have the same experience she did (K-12, Arizona public schools, just got her certification for Principal).
My early 20's gf and her current husband went in because it was an easy career to work in. (K-12, Arizona charter, ranked in 10 best schools in the country)
My older brother went in to finance his ongoing education, and work in his field. (He's ABD, teaching Ohio Uni courses)
His wife went in because she had a passionate intellectual interest in early childhood development. (K-12, Ohio public schools)
My younger brother went in because wanted to further his career credentials and contacts. (Comm. College, he teaches trauma medicine)
My father's girlfriend went in because she wanted to work with, and study, "gifted" kids. (K-12, Arizona gifted programs, now retired)

Why do you ask?

[yurbud]

48. what kind of contacts did you brother think he would make in K-12?

I ask because a lot of people claim most are in it for job security and summers off.

The first is being threatened and the latter doesn't really counterbalance the downside.

[boppers]

65. Neither brother went in for K-12 contacts...

My younger brother (where I mentioned contacts) meets most/many of his former students on the street when treating medical emergencies.

[yurbud]

15. I forgot the TOON to go with it:

[yurbud]

26. damn--the five DLCers here have knocked off some votes--must have struck a nerve

[depakid]

29. Rockefeller Republicans have always behaved like that

Bend over backwards for abusive corporations- and let mining executives who violate the laws walk free, while locking and loading against those who aren't members of the country club set.

[senseandsensibility]

32. Great post, yurbud!

Thanks for posting.

[LWolf]

33. I wish I could pin your OP to the top of every political forum in the nation.

Thank you.

[Dinger]

45. K & R, But

they're wearing me down, which I imagine is their goal.

[scheming daemons]

46. Because he's the antichrist.... and he hates puppies too.....

He's just such a bad, bad man.

That's why.


:eyes:

[tekisui]

54. Is that the best response you have?

[QC]

70. Sadly, yes. n/t

[Starry Messenger]

50. Thank you.

Just thank you.

[tekisui]

53. knr.

[art of compromise]

56. One of those two groups can be taken for granted.

[BlueIris]

57. Alienation of teachers is part of the mythical three dimensional chess game to save government.

Or something. I think.

[senseandsensibility]

64. kick

for those that may have missed this.

[cornermouse]

67. Why?

"Instead, he is taking the very opposite approach from those other issues. Teachers are not only vilified but ignored (unlike health insurance companies, Wall Street execs, and oil companies)."

1. Teachers are primarily women.
2. Since teachers are primarily women they are traditionally less well paid than other sectors of employment.

That's why.

[marshall]

68. Teachers are government workers

The alternative in the other cases is to pull a Reagan and nationalize them, like air traffic controllers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. Thank you

:applause: