FDL- "They sell old Ralph Nader wine in new shiny-bloggy bottles. "

[NJmaverick]

Many at Daily Kos are unhappy with FDL's latest fund raiser/split the liberal coalition attempt

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/6/21/17386/2995

Here is another Diary:

And with that (Jane's fund raising email), Jane Hamsher loses me. And you know I went kicking and screaming. But I wasn't one of those who gave a crap that she coordinated on a project with Grover Norquist. I don't give a damn that FireDogLake is perhaps one of the most renowned critics of the Obama administration.

I'm a critic too.

But this is overboard. This is a blatant attempt to peel delicate layers away from a consensus that took us 10 years to build. And I won't have any part of it.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/6/21/878081/-Sorry-Jane.-You-Just-Lost-Me.

[Raine1967]

1. Glad to see people are finally waking up to what Hamsher has been up to.

She is not, nor ever has been - in my opinion- interested in building a more progressive Democratic party.

K&R

[struggle4progress]

9. This is a confused criticism: on the one hand, complaining FDL pushes a Ralph Nader line; on the

other hand, complaining FDL works with Grover Norquist; and some third hand, complaining that FDL is anti-corporate

Perhaps FDL does not have a coherent point-of-view -- but then it's still strange to criticize FDL in this incoherent way

[Raine1967]

10. The diary said they didn't care that she worked with Norquist.

I thought it made perfect sense. ( personally, I DID care that she did that, and I was not pleased)

Unless you are talking about my critisism. Until this post I didn't mention Norquist. I'm a little confused I guess about what you find confusing. And -- I swear, I am not being snarky here! :)

FDL is trying to split the Democratic Party. That is my contention.

[Luminous Animal]

13. FDL didn't split the party.

Al From and the DLC split the party.

[Raine1967]

17. I never said FDL did.

I said this was an attempt.
We can talk about From and the DLC, but this thread is about FDL, and Jane Hamsher, is it not?

(Edit To state FDL, instead of *she* in my post header)

[Luminous Animal]

31. The party is already split. It has been for decades.

Hamsher is a member of the pro-choice, pro-labor, pro-social safety net, anti-poverty, anti-torture, anti-imperialism wing of the party. That wing has been marginalized and demoralized and is now finding it's voice again.

[struggle4progress]

14. Dunno: you may be right about FDL, but I think exactly the same

critique can be made of the posts you cite

[Raine1967]

16. I didn't cite any post except the one in the OP.

Why would one critique something never posted by myself?

It doesn't really matter to me personally, it just makes things confusing.


(edit for spelling)

[struggle4progress]

21. Apologies if I was unclear: I meant reference to the links in the OP

[LoZoccolo]

18. Ralph Nader accepts right-wing support and money; there is no contradiction there.

Nader and the right are in coalition.

[struggle4progress]

20. For decades, Nader has warned about "corporations as people"

His model for change always involved using the tools of liberal democracy to expose and challenge corporate power. His career was based on grassroots organizing that empowered people, and for years I've heard the rightwing vilify him for his activism

In short, Nader is unlikely to be in cahoots with the rightwing. Unfortunately, the establishment since the 1960s has worked hard to undermine the liberal democratic context needed for Nader's approach

Kos links in the OP suggest some distress with an anti-corporate position at FDL, and a certain sympathy for Norquist, which I suppose accounts for the gratuitous slap at Nader.

[brentspeak]

48. Obama gives hundreds of billions of tax payer dollars to Wall Street

escalates the war in Afghanistan, forces Americans to purchase useless, bankruptcy-inducing private insurance, is actively working to break the teacher unions, and lets Bush war criminals off-the-hook while prosecuting whistleblowers.

Does that mean that Obama and the right-wing are "in coalition"?

[vi5]

2. That's terrible....

..pulling that crap as a fundraising device. Ugh.

Don't get me wrong I've sadly come to believe that if progressives don't start speaking louder at the voting booth and in other ways that we're going to continue on a rightward shift as a party and the hopes that these incremental gains we've made in the last year or two will be "just the beginning" are never going to happen.

But for whatever reason I just think using that discontent as a fundraising effort is just beyond the pale.

[Raine1967]

3. I get the feeling that she is saying you can't be a Progressive

and also be a Dem.

It's an attempt to fracture the party and that is going to hurt more than help. Yes progressives need to be louder.

Yes we need to keep pushing, but there are people working really hard to do this, and I think this will hurt the progressive movement more than help. It alienates people,

[Luminous Animal]

28. Other than putting out a plea to raise money to push for progressive issues...

what has she done? Progressives need money to push forward a progressive agenda. They need money to run websites, to mount and sustain actions and to recruit, groom, and support progressive candidates. Progressives cannot vote for progressives if they never have the opportunity to show up on the ballot.

[ProudDad]

54. Actually, it's probably the other way around

That the Democrats in power will NOT produce any Progressive legislation...

Most are ideologically inclined against Progressive policies...

Nearly all are financially averse to promoting Progressive policies...their corporate capitalist masters wouldn't like it...and would fire them...

The party as a whole is the other "bowl of shit looking at itself in the mirror!" (Louis Black)

[Jennicut]

4. Nothing new in her world.

Really, I have come to not trust too many so called liberal bloggers, like her and Arianna. They seem to put their egos above and over the cause.

(DU does not seem to have that problem :) )

[demhistorian]

5. I would prefer progressives like Hamsher go away

Just my opinion.

I also believe people should start distinguishing themselves. You're either "A progressive" or "YOU ARE progressive." A real difference between the two has developed.

[Luminous Animal]

30. What is a "progressive?"

[leveymg]

6. What's next, Loyalty Oaths? This so reminds me of how the ADA purged the Progressives in '48

and how the Daley Democrats went after the McCarthy peace delegates in 1968. Lots of innuendo and accusations about divided loyalties.

The purge of the Democratic Left by the party main-liners did nothing but to lay the way for the GOP to come along and clean up afterwards. Set the Democratic Party back by decades.

Stifle that urge to purge, or it'll stifle all of us.

[jefferson_dem]

7. Thanks.

It amazes me that some folks still don't see through Hamsher's shtick. Waiting on Sacha Baron Cohen to take off the blond wig and say ... "you just got punk'd."

[volvoblue]

8. I've long thought Hamsher an opportunist and not what she bills

herself as.
she could just as easily go right and do this. She is not about real ideas but, out for getting herself in front of any camera.

[depakid]

11. OMG-

not sure whether to:

:rofl: or

:tinfoilhat:

or :eyes:

Dude- do you ever get a clue or take a hint?

[NJmaverick]

12. What "hint" should I be getting?

+7? :shrug:

[Enrique]

15. Bill Halter is not Ralph Nader

you can support Blanche Lincoln all you want. I will oppose her and anyone like her.

[jenmito]

19. She's a bizarro teabagger. n/t

[Raine1967]

22. She really doesn't seem that different.

I haven't liked where she was going for some time.

[jenmito]

24. I agree.

Same here.

[Luminous Animal]

32. What makes her a teabagger?

[jenmito]

33. I called her a "bizarro teabagger," meaning just like a teabagger but on the opposite side.

She'd rather be a purist on the left and not compromise ANYTHING-just like the teabaggers on the right.

[Luminous Animal]

35. I don't think you understand what activists do.

Activists push the narrative from their point of view and do not need to compromise because they are in no position to give anything away. The very nature of an issues driven activist demands that they hold the line. It is up to the policy makers and politicians to hammer out the compromises.

[jenmito]

37. So you support teabaggers and Jane Hamsher because you consider them "activists"?

I understand very well what activists do, and I don't want them trying to rip the Dem. party apart.

[Luminous Animal]

38. I support Jane on many of her inititiaves because they align with my

views of a more democratic just society.

I support teabaggers to BE activists but I do not support their agenda.

[jenmito]

39. So you support Jane trying to tear apart the Dem. party? n/t

[Luminous Animal]

40. I don't believe that she is tearing apart the Democratic Party.

I believe that the DLC already did that years ago.

[jenmito]

41. No-the DLC is part of the Dem. "big tent." Jane would rather a Repub. win than a Dem. who's not

a pure liberal.

[PassingFair]

55. That's crap.

Jane would rather vote for what she wants and not get it
than vote for what she doesn't want and get that.

I have no problem supporting her group in primary
challenges to corporate democrats.

[Forkboy]

44. jen, the Party is perfectly willing to do this itself.

Jane is doing nothing that Dems aren't already doing to themselves. She's a symptom, not a cause. We Dems desperately need to wake up to this distinction.

[stevenleser]

49. No, it isn't. Purity advocates like FDL are.

What is so hard to understand about this? If you start kicking groups out of your coalition, you have less people in it. This isnt rocket science. Less people means less votes.

All of those people, including Jane and including those here who are screaming that the sky is falling ARE the cause. They ARE the issue here.

[Luminous Animal]

50. FDL and Hamsher haven't kicked anyone out of their coalition. She hasn't the power.

But a lot of Democrats are doing their part in trying to kick Hamsher out of theirs. Also, Hamsher is not screaming. She is soberly and steadily building coalitions with labor, health care advocates, and progressive citizens. She is working to build a progressive apparatus to counter the extreme powerful and wealth DLC New Democrat machine.

Al From of the DLC explicitly stated that he was going to build an organization that would get Dems elected by marginalizing the needs of the traditional Democratic base. And it worked. For the most part, the concerns of labor, civil rights organizations, pro-choice advocates, and Great Society policy makers are irrelevant.

[Forkboy]

51. Missing the forest for the trees, Steven.

If you start kicking groups out of your coalition, you have less people in it.

Think about that long and hard and get back to me.

[ProudDad]

59. I have great sympathy for the tea-baggers

They have legitimate complaints but aren't looking in the right direction for the source of their pain...

They blame the mythical "liberals" and the allegedly "socialist" Obama...

Just like many Democrats...

Neither group looks to their corporate capitalist masters and their employees of both parties in the Congress and White House...the real source of their pain...

Neither group realizes "It's the economy, Stupid!" that's the great disuniting evil and its enabler the USAmerican Empire and its fellow travelers...

[Tarheel_Dem]

23. I haven't trusted Hamsher since an NPR interview of the Texas teabagger lady.

She claimed that they were "coordinating" their efforts with FDL, and disaffected Dems. There's a lot of it going around, on the internet. We saw this movie in 2000, when we were told that Gore=Bush. I certainly hope we're much smarter than that today.

[great white snark]

25. Same with me.

And I wholeheartedly agree with you.

[Luminous Animal]

29. A teabagger claimed that, did she? Teabaggers also claim that Obama

is a socialist/nazi/communist. That he is not a U.S. citizen, that he is a Muslim. Do you have proof that supports that teabagger lady's accusation?

[Tarheel_Dem]

34. Nope, not going to engage you.

Now run along, mmmmmkay? Perhaps you can hash it all out with Grover Norquist. ;-)

[Luminous Animal]

36. John Podesta & Wes Clark partner with Norquist in this organization...

http://www.constitutionproject.org/Memblist.asp?cid=303

[Forkboy]

45. Perhaps you could prove your points.

[Tarheel_Dem]

46. Self delete. Wrong Spot.

[Forkboy]

52. It was the perfect spot to prove your point.

:shrug:

[ProudDad]

58. Agreed

that was premature..

As far as the perpetual War, the Imperial pResidency and loss of Civil Liberties; Obama=Bush...

[AtomicKitten]

26. bless Jane's heart

her bitter puma heart

[Orsino]

27. Unfortunately, it's *new* Ralph nader wine.

Old Nader, I could welcome.

[Radical Activist]

42. Who?

Seriously, the only place I've heard of FDL is an occasional post at DU criticizing it. She's fitting the mold of ineffective activists by picking a weird name that doesn't mean anything to anybody.

[mzmolly]

43. Why hamshire is often the spokesperson for the "left" on places like MSNBC,

I haven't a clue. Sure would be nice is someone represented Democrats when Republican supporters are countered in the media.

[brentspeak]

47. Stupid OP

"Many at Daily Kos are unhappy with FDL's latest fund raiser/split the liberal coalition attempt"

"Many"? The Daily Kos OP you linked to to prove your assertion of "many" received a whopping "tip jar" of 5+ from fellow forum members. Meanwhile, this particular response to the diary got a tip jar of 43+:

WTF!? (43+ / 0-)

who gives a flying fuck. Do you need the DKos front pagers or editors or owner to do either in order for you to make a decision? Lot's of people think DFL and Jane are wonderful. other believe the site and jane are completely off the rails.

This diary bring silly to a whole new level.

In the choice between changing ones mind and proving there's no need to do so, most people get busy on the proof.

by jsfox on Mon Jun 21, 2010 at 02:45:20 PM PDT

How pathetic is it for someone to start a thread on DU about a Daily Kos member complaining about something written on FDL?

[PopSixSquish]

53. Burning the Village in Order to Save it Rarely Works

ask General Westmorland...

[depakid]

56. delete

wrong place

[saltpoint]

57. There seem to be some serious Axis II issues over at FDL.

I don't go there anymore.

Used to like it. Not now.