I'm sure that it is "very complicated" and that I am "not sophisticated enough" to "fully

[Atticus]

appreciate" all the "nuances" of the question, but why in hell couldn't the president have said something like:

"We are not leaving Iraq because we won. We are leaving because this is as early as we could do so responsibly after having wrongfully invaded the country and setting in motion a chain of events which soon spun out of control and was, as many predicted, used by irresponsible elements in the Middle East to recruit more fighters and foment more violence in the region"?

I have much more I could say about tonight's address, but don't believe it would be constructive, so I'll just stick with the one question.

[Connie_Corleone]

1. Are you serious??

Come back to the real world where 24% of the country thinks Obama is a secret Muslim and most Republicans think he wants to bring Sharia law to America.

[Atticus]

10. Isn't anyone else bothered by the "truth avoidance"? What about that old admonition that

"Once you start cutting corners and shading the truth, it's difficult to re-draw the line."

Bush is a war criminal---uncharged---but, still, a war criminal. Why are we crediting him with "concern for the troops" when he got over 4400 of them killed for no damn good reason?

[Barack2theFuture]

45. our system of government and the DC beltway crowd

are corrupt to the very core of their beings, all the way through.

Unspun, unvarnished, unfiltered truth is anathema to anyone in any role in DC.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

57. DC and the "beltway crowd" are a reflection of America.

You sent them here. We didn't ask for them to come here. Don't forget that.

[JVS]

13. The real world, where delusion reigns supreme.

Yeah, that's something to just accept. :eyes:

[babylonsister]

2. Did he say we won? No, he said we left when he said we would,

and gave very appropriate props to the soldiers who were involved.

As for dredging up stuff, what would be the point? He's be skewered for it, and he's skewered enough every day as it is.

[IndianaGreen]

4. Demanding prosecution of war criminals is not 'dredging up stuff'

Bush & Co. should be at The Hague facing justice!

[mrcheerful]

11. You do know that to go after Bush co would cost the DOJ tons of money in

investigation fee's alone. Or did you forget what it cost when the thugs went after Clinton on white water and the only thing they had to show for all that tax money spent was a stained blue dress. Should Bush co be brought up on criminal charges? Sure but at what cost to the citizens who are left out in the cold?

[Atticus]

15. You know, the Republicans always seem to find the damn money! This isn't about

money. It's about balls.

[babylonsister]

16. No, it was about priorities. We're still combating the heap of

economic problems idiot son created and left the country with. And yes, it's about money, period.

Maybe if there weren't such other pressing problems, it might have happened.

[Atticus]

20. I do respect your opinion, but this amounts to enforcing the law only when we have plenty of money.

I haven't heard of any other admitted felons being given a pass to save money.

As I said in the OP, I am probably just too unsophisticated to appreciate the nuances.

[babylonsister]

23. Whatever. You can rant and rail all day for attention, but it

hasn't happened and won't in the forseeable future, which is what Obama is concentrating on.

:hi:

[IndianaGreen]

19. Put them in one of those CIA rendition flights

but instead of taking them to another country to be tortured, as it is still going on today, send them to The Hague. The International Crimes Court will bear all the costs of prosecution.

[suzie]

68. You really think that the American public, even those who are Democrats would

support an American president being tried at the the Hague?

Besides, I thought the complaint about Obama not prosecuting the "war crimes" was that he wasn't living up to the U.S. Constitution?

So, I'm have a difficult time getting it straight--do we want the Bush administration personnel to be prosecuted under U.S. laws or international laws?

[Politicalboi]

72. I would support it

I would support a trial in Iraq where the crime happened. I'm still hoping they get what's coming to them, but it's probably never going to happen.

[TheKentuckian]

26. Like the money saved is going to the poor, please.

[Fla_Democrat]

47. Takes $10, and a little time

Someone just has to have a donor star and search DU's archives..... The work has already been done, linked, and footnoted. :smoke:

[Pharaoh]

46. Yes........

they should have been at the Hague by now..............

[Atticus]

17. As you say, he gets skewered every day as it is. Do you really believe he

won't be skewered about tonight's speech? He didn't specifically THANK Chimpy for getting 4400 of our people killed---that should be good for several hours on FOX and have talk radio buzzing for days.

If he's going to get hit, why not speak a little "pre-emptive" truth? Appeasing the conservative screamers hasn't worked so far.

[babylonsister]

21. Why should he? We have very important issues to address if

we even have a chance in the midterms, and these aren't them. He addressed the elephant in the room, and he announced the end of combat operations. I don't know what you want short of an inquisition being formed, but it ain't gonna happen.




http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100901/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama

Obama addressed millions who were divided over the war in his country and around the world. He said the United States "has paid a huge price" to give Iraqis the chance to shape their future — a price that now includes more than 4,400 dead, tens of thousands of troops wounded and hundreds of billions of dollars spent since March 2003.

In a telling sign of the domestic troubles weighing on the United States and his own presidency, Obama turned much of the emphasis in a major war address to the dire state of U.S. joblessness.

snip//

As the commander in chief over a war he opposed, Obama took pains to thank troops for their sacrifice but made clear he saw the day as more the marking of a mistake ended than a mission accomplished. He spoke of strained relations with allies, anger at home and the heaviest of wartime tolls.

"We have met our responsibility," Obama said. "Now it is time to turn the page."

[Atticus]

25. I would be happy to turn the page, but how many times will we ask the other side to do so

only to be spat upon and lied about?

I agree we need to concentrate on the midterms, but "bipartisanship" is a ridiculous goal for the forseeable future. The president is a better person than I am. That is as it should be.

[babylonsister]

27. OK. You either believe in the Dems, the President, and support

them, or post divisive stuff proclaiming your ire.

I know where I stand and who I am against, and that would be rethugs at the moment. I will concentrate on winning in November, not how bad Obama is because he hasn't indicted the previous admin.

Concentrate on what makes you feel good.

I can't help you.

[TheKentuckian]

28. Why then should anyone at all be prosecuted? All cannot be equal when the powerful

are above the law.

If turning the page is good for the Bush Crime Syndicate, then it is fine and dandy for every single Federal prisoner.

You are spitting in the eye of the very concept of justice by exempting the wealthy, powerful, and connected.

Law in this land is a lie and you applaud it.

[Bluenorthwest]

40. And hey, we can afford to fire gay volunteers

We can afford to defend DOMA (they have to, it is their job!) but the law is as selective as Obama's dogmas, anti gay, sure, anti torture, well, let's turn the page.

[G_j]

49. exactly! lets abolish the courts

if we refuse apply justice to the real criminals.

[pnwmom]

3. And that would accomplish what exactly? n/t

[metapunditedgy]

43. Teach our children to tell the truth? n/t

[pnwmom]

48. What did Obama say that was a lie? n/t

[metapunditedgy]

51. Are you telling me that you can't see the difference between the OP text and the speech?

Really?

[pnwmom]

54. No. You're putting words into my mouth. I'm just asking what would be accomplished

by Obama saying the words in the OP, "We are not leaving because we won."

It's not as if Obama's speech contained lies.

[metapunditedgy]

55. Um, not interested in hair-splitting. Teaching children to tell the truth

is pretty similar to teaching them to accurately represent reality. And I think the OP reflects reality in a way that Obama's speech should have, but didn't. Don't you agree?

[pnwmom]

56. I think the 2 speeches are apples and oranges. And the OP's speech might

have satisfied some of our "told you so!" impulses while accomplishing little else.

The media would immediately dub Obama as another President who "lost a war" and the American public would buy it.

[metapunditedgy]

63. I guess you're saying that Rupert Murdoch is pulling the strings. I hope not.

I'd like to think that an open, frank, and honest speech would be met with dropped jaws and cries of "Wow, did an American President just tell the *truth* about an American war?"

I'd like to think that Obama's speech is *not* driven by right-wing news and right-wing voters, who will oppose him no matter what he does.

[pnwmom]

66. I'm glad the President is more realistic. n/t

[metapunditedgy]

69. Because it would be impractical to tell the world the truth!

Well, we're back where we started.

[pnwmom]

71. It would be fine if Obama were a lame duck President.

I'm hoping he won't be.

[metapunditedgy]

74. I'm hoping he won't either, but he's not "dancing with them what brung him." n/t

[pnwmom]

75. Announcing that we hadn't won the war would be a good way

to shoot himself in the foot.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

58. Do you always volunteer the unfettered and complete truth to your kids?

Ever seen "The Invention of Lying"? Yeah, it doesn't quite work. Why would we expect Obama to act like he's in that movie?

[metapunditedgy]

62. LOL... so Obama's speech is filtered for children? Is that what you're saying?

I expect my children to tell the truth to *me*, and in all other important situations.

If you think a Presidential speech to the American public (the world, really) on the subject of the Iraq war is the place for "fettered" and "incomplete" truth, then say so. And I would disagree with you, especially because of the lives America has ruined in this war.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

64. Yes, I absolutely think ANY political speech given by the president should be incomplete.

There are things like "diplomatic relations" and "classified information" that need to be considered in any speech given by the president when it comes to foreign relations. You might not understand this, but people outside America listen to these things too, and what he says can have severe ramifications.

[metapunditedgy]

65. I'm not talking about state secrets. I'm talking about a war WE started that had a horrific

effect on innocent/civilian children, women, and men of Iraq.

If my kid punches another kid, I expect him to tell me what he did, and own up to it publicly if necessary. But no, he doesn't have to divulge any state secrets in the process.

Thinking a little more, it's disturbing that you think all the atrocities (many of which were intentionally committed) in Iraq should be swept under the rug of "diplomatic relations" and "classified information." Don't you think that's disturbing?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

67. And you don't think that would have foreign policy implications?

Even without state secrets, you don't think Obama saying anything you want him to say would cause any problems? Seriously... Are you that naive? THAT is what I'm most disturbed about right now.

[metapunditedgy]

70. Telling the world that we understand the horrible things we've done, stuff the world already knows?

I think it would have *great* foreign policy implications. Might cause a bit of *change*, tho.

[eleny]

5. I was shocked and pleased that he pointed out that we had to borrow the money to conduct the war

Pleased because it sent blood pressure readings dangerously high in certain quarters.

[dkf]

6. I don't think that would be of much comfort to our soldiers nor their families.

I feel bad that we asked this of them.

[zipplewrath]

7. 'Cause it would be a lie

We could have been out "responsibly" 9 months ago.

[DFab420]

8. 9 months?

Can I ask why you say 9 months? Do you have field reports and policy analysis that supports nine months?


*edit
on an unrelated note. (first post in almost 5 months haha wow)

[zipplewrath]

9. That's how fast the got them there

Getting that many troops home doesn't take that long. It's moving the equipment that takes longer. I guess I don't see how it is "responsible" to leave troops in harms way, killing innocent Iraqis, to hang around with trucks and trailers.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

59. It was 8 years worth of infrastructure build up.

So unless you plan on just leaving hundreds of billions of dollars worth of stuff there, it takes a lot longer than that to get it out.

[KansasVoter]

12. You are falling for the Pentagon crap I see.

[Atticus]

14. Point taken. I was trying to give some "fudge" room or benefit of the doubt.

You're right. I shouldn't have.

[Drunken Irishman]

18. "I" "doubt" "it". "Being" "President" "is" "about" "being" "diplomatic".

[Atticus]

22. "Thank you" for "your response". Editorial criticism accepted. nt

[Drunken Irishman]

24. "You're" "welcome" "!"

[babylonsister]

29. Ha! nt

[dionysus]

44. you're killing me

:rofl:

[valerief]

30. We're not leaving Iraq. We're putting a boatload of contractors there with a

Beck-sized crowd of soldiers.

[FrenchieCat]

31. I suspect if he would have read your script,

you would have asked why he couldn't have said something else?

[polmaven]

36. ...!

:thumbsup:

I suspect some of us wake up each morning wondering what they can complain about for THIS day.

[Atticus]

42. Suspect anything you want. If all your suspicions are as unjustified as that one,

you must lead a very confusing life.

[hulka38]

32. The Democratic Party has legitimized the Iraq War

at every crucial stage because they are afraid.

[grasswire]

33. Isn't this how it was in the old Soviet Union?

Rewriting history, refusing to tell truths, making up puff stories about "Glorious Leaders"?

It's all here but the vodka.

[smalll]

34. Not much "nuance" to it at all --

A head of state giving a speech calling his own country bumbling, misguided, and fundamentally guilty and evil? While at the same time making it clear that "we LOST!" and that every countryman who died over there "died in VAIN! and don't you forget it!"

Hmmm. Why not give a speech like that hmm??? :think:

:eyes:

[hulka38]

41. Tell the truth that everyone but the chronically delusional know already:

We were wrong. It would have been an opportunity for a great communicator to explain that this disastrous war was the fault of the policy makers and in no way the fault of the troops. That is a simple concept.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[depakid]

37. Psychological projection really is impressive by magnitudes at times

[blueworld]

38. I would have been happy if he simply didn't compliment Bush

I can understand that Obama is sincerely a classy president, he wants to move forward etc., and so I would have preferred to hear him toot his own horn LOUDLY in ending Iraq combat with very little help from the GOP...and so on.

However I still cannot fathom what motivated him to call that whining, lying, dishonest, intellectually challenged war criminal a "patriot". Obama didn't have to insult him. Why did he feel the need for even a small kowtow?

I simply was astounded. Just sayin'.

[NJmaverick]

39. DON'T TURN THE PAGE! I want to linger here forever!

[metapunditedgy]

52. That's very offensive snark. Iraqis are going to be "lingering" with the effects of our war

for decades, some for the rest of their lives. (Do we need to review the effects of war on the civilians and innocents?)

Americans should "turn the page" and forget about the shit they've caused around the world.

I'm sorry, but that statement is disgusting.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

60. Your fake attempt at outrage is disgusting.

And "turn the page" means stop fucking parsing the words of one speech. We've moved our combat troops home. Move on.

[metapunditedgy]

61. No, I'm actually outraged, and your "my way or the highway" tone is disgusting.

Look at the speech... "turn the page" refers to "over there" in Iraq.

Right after, Obama says "Here, too, it's time to turn the page."

What neocon wrote that "turn the page" line, and has the writer been fired yet?

[scheming daemons]

50. Did he say anything about winning?

[JoePhilly]

53. Obama should have withdrwn in 2008 and let McCain handle it.

That way, McCain could have pulled troops from Iraq and invaded Iran by now.

[HughMoran]

73. Ludicrous. n/t