President Obama is the only one to grab the moral high ground on this issue.

[ncteechur]

1. The democrats who want to kill the deal can't claim it because they are willing to let the tax cuts expire even for those of us n the lowest end of the economic spectrum because they have suddenly become overwhelmed by deficit spending. Did they oppose deficit spending in the first stimulus? They should have debated this much earlier when there was time. Time has run out.

2. The GOP can't claim it because they know that the wealthiest don't need a tax cut but they are just bound and determined to clog up the works to get a tax break for their buddies.

3. The President can claim the high ground because in the end, he (a)kept his promise not to raise taxes on those making less than $250K; (b) decided that helping those of us struggling the most was more important than sticking it to the GOP and the rich, and (c) took over and pushed the deal through because the clock had run out since the democrats could have taken this up earlier in the year (which is what he wanted to do) but didn't because they thought it would sink their chances to win reelection (didn't work out too well for us).

[Warren Stupidity]

1. Right. Another attempt at Capitulation = Great Victory.

Boring.

[ncteechur]

43. I'm sorry that you cannot follow logic and reason.

[niceypoo]

44. Tell us the logic of delaying recovery for two extra years?

With more budget busting tax cuts for the rich. Bush tax cuts caused this mess.

[Warren Stupidity]

49. yeah I agree that the logic and reason that spins capitulation

as victory is way over my head.

[Exilednight]

81. What is the logic for promoting long term damage to our economy?

the tax cuts will do more damage than help.

[young but wise]

2. K&R

[RandomThoughts]

3. Then put up a bill with tax cuts for those in more hardship.

And tax raises and higher estate tax for the obscenely wealthy.

How hard is that.

It is only about what they do to get elected, if you think elections are not by democracy.

[elocs]

13. Putting up bills is easy, getting one passed is extremely hard.

Getting a bill passed is the point. Otherwise it is all just for political show.

[RandomThoughts]

20. Was Gandhi's action for political show?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. Different Situation

Please share with me how non-violence resistance can motivate the Republicans to abandon their governing philosophy.

[RandomThoughts]

29. Explain to me how they can govern, if most of the people see them as wrong.

What if they don't have an army, police, or even administrators.

And not about any group like Republicans, but about the concept of transparency, and the honest belief both that most people are more good then bad, and that better ideas for better reasons will prevail if things are seen for what they are.


So the whole stupid debate, all this politics and control, and propaganda, all comes down to what you believe.



Are people more good then bad, or more bad then good. That is what it comes down to.

Jefferson, versus Hamilton.

That is the difference between authoritarians, and educators. Some hate people, some love people.




Here is the trick of it, you can be really self rightous, and rationalize selfishness if you can think most people are bad and 'deserve it' and you are somehow better.

So it is really seductive to think of people as mostly bad, and then join that thought by just being mostly bad yourself.

if you listen to the ending scene of Return of the Jedi, the bad emperor tries to break Luke by using hopelessness, and unfairness, he tries to turn Luke to the dark side. That is how people are turned to the dark side.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. We Have Elections

We try to inform the electorate. They can either accept or decline the information we give them. I understand you are thinking globally and I respect that but this isn't a global discussion.

It goes back to what your definition of politics. Some say it's the deliberate and rational pursuit of the good life while others say it's the battle of who gets what and when.

[elocs]

33. So you compare what happens in day to day politics in the U.S. with Ghandi?

Wow!

[RandomThoughts]

52. Explain how Gandhi's efforts had an effect.

What caused an effect to happen.


I am saying what happens everywhere day to day is the same thing.


Concepts of are people more good or more bad, does light overcome dark, if things are seen will they be corrected, concepts of secrecy versus light.

[Exilednight]

82. Sometimes political show turns into governing reality. But you have to have the

mettle to get it done.

If governing was easy, we wouldn't elect leaders based on our belief to get things done.

[dkf]

31. Hello...they did that and it failed in the Senate.

And apparently hardly anyone heard about it.

[RandomThoughts]

53. So you turn up the volume.

Till there is nothing else to be reported. Or nothing else is heard.

Although not just about that tax bill, but about the basic premise of what is going on.


And if it was seen, and would be corrected, and is not seen, then the problem is the information dispersal system. So that gives an argument for changing current information systems or education systems.

Not that complicated.

[myrna minx]

4. What about the 99ers who were completely left out of the equation?

What about the tax increase on those making less that $20,000 as a single and as a couple less than $40,000? Do they not struggle? How is that the moral high ground?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/07/tax-cut-compromise-whose-taxes-rise_n_793572.html

[stevenleser]

36. So, we can't help all so we help none. That is your solution? n/t

[zalinda]

42. It is estimated that those who fall in the

$20,0000 to $40,000 range is 50 million people. Fifty million of the poorest working people will get a tax hike, or pay cut, which ever way you look at it, so millionaires and billionaires can get a tax cut? And so we, as a country, can get more in debt? And then there is the slippery slope of cutting payroll taxes.

Let the tax cuts expire. Apparently UI benefits have ALWAYS been passed, whether repub or dem when the unemployment reaches a certain percent, according to long time politicians. If the repubs don't pass the UI part of the bill, let everyone know it is their fault and get the people to call and bitch at them.

You don't slap a bandaid on a wound that is turning out to be a flesh eating disease, and that is what Obama is doing.

zalinda

[whosinpower]

5. Borrowing money from the chinese

to give the wealthy tax cuts they do not need, and do not spend to stimulate the economy IS NOT MORAL.

Threatening Social Security by defunding it through a tax holiday and paying for that out of general funds - IS NOT MORAL. Saying that this is a democratic principle is GROSSLY INACCURATE.

Using one mans hunger and anxiety about feeding himself and his family as a bargaining chip so the wealthy get their $70 000 tax savings is utterly disgusting. Caving to that is just as bad. And I will tell you why. It means that democracy is dead. It means that the minority 1 percent effectively control all aspects of government regardless of what the majority want or need. It means that the moneyed folk's vote is more valuable than the working mans vote. That kills the very principle of a democracy.

Let all the tax cuts expire on schedule. In the new year work on a jobs program - a direct jobs program for those registered unemployed. Borrow the money for that. Tax cuts do not lead to growth. Tax cut welfare for the wealthy will not create one single job and will not give democrats one single vote. Not when the republicans will use fiscal responsibility as a blunt weapon against Obama. And they will.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. Where Are The Votes For A Job Program?

.

[Dawgs]

10. So we only vote for what the Republicans want now; just cause they have the votes.

:wtf:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. You Can Vote For Whatever You Want But It Won't Pass Without Republican Votes

The Republicans benefit from inaction. If you think they don't there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.


KISSES
DSB

[stevenleser]

37. There you go throwing facts at people again. :-)

If only that worked around here.

[whosinpower]

14. Where is the jobs program?

You are asking where the votes are without even bothering to define what the program is, what it does, who it affects, who it helps and who is going to pay for it.

Look, during the election we were told the number 1 problem was high unemployment. The republicans talked about it. The democrats maintained that would be their highest priority. Why dance around the issue? Taxes did NOT cause the recession. It is like a person gets his right arm pinned in a vise, and in an effort to help unpin that arm, the helper tickles his left toe - as if that would somehow help. Tackle the issue directly. Unpin that arm. Create a national jobs program. Borrow the money for that.

Offer a program to businesses and corporations to hire that would pay for 50 percent of the workers salary for up to 24 months. Caveats - workers must be currently registered as unemployed, and businesses or corporations must register an increase in workforce - not a turnover. Jobs must be fulltime.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. Who Will Determine How Much These Jobs Pay?

.

[whosinpower]

35. That will be negotiated by the businesses hiring

And current market values of the jobs.

Look, the incentive is a direct stimulus to JOBS, rather than a roundabout vague toe tickle. It increases production, it helps train and hire workers, it is a positive gain to business. And, on top of that, it is an incentive to create jobs in America, for America and for the benefit of the American economy.

Seems like a no-brainer to me. Let the tax cuts expire - all of them. Create a national jobs program along this line, and this concept will put people back to work, get them off unemployment, increase the GDP and help grow the American economy. It helps business. It helps start ups. In otherwards, it directs the stimulus directly where it is needed, instead of trying to gerryrig more demand by giveaways, but not taking into account that jobs are still being exported overseas, and any increased demand here will only increase jobs overseas, instead of domestically.

[dkf]

32. Tax cuts for stimulus are the last ditch effort to create more jobs.

Sadly this is it for us.

[stray cat]

6. So borrowing more money from China is the moral high ground?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Where Was The Objection To Borrowing Money From The Chinese For The First Stimulus

.

[Dawgs]

9. Since when did Democrats start believing that tax cuts are stimulus?

:shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. As Chairman Mao Said "Before You Speak, Investigate"

Res ipsa loquitur:


Steven Waldman, a former U.S. News editor (well before I wandered these halls), makes an interesting case that the coming tax cut will indeed be the biggest ever.

The compromise stimulus plan includes $282 billion in tax cuts over two years.

According to the Wall Street Journal, Bush's first two years of tax cuts amounted to $174 billion. A second batch in 2004 and 2005 cost $231. And those were thought to be bigger than the tax cuts offered by Reagan, Kennedy, or others.

http://politics.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2009/02/12/is-obama-stimulus-plan-also-the-biggest-tax-cut-ever.html

Don't feel bad. Most Americans didn't realize how much of Obama's first stimulus was comprised of tax cuts.

[myrna minx]

11. Since when does the Democratic platform contain trick down economics

as an economic stimulus?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Can You Please Show Me Where I Endorsed Trickle Down Economics?

.

[Phx_Dem]

22. Progressives have no problem borrowing money from China,

They're favorite thing to do is spend money.

[jody]

18. What is "moral" about either increasing or decreasing taxes? nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Decreasing Taxes On The Poor Is Moral Because It Eases Their Burden

.

[jody]

67. What is the source of your claim "Moral Because It Eases Their Burden"? n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

80. Simple humanity.

Hard to grasp, I know.

[Phx_Dem]

21. Rec. The POTUS also kept his word about working across the asile.

Remember that? He campaigned on it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Good Catch

Remember the primary wars...

HRC promised to battle the Repubs

BHO promised to work with them

BHO's supporters said that was a good thing

Now the same supporters are beating him over the head for doing so

[Bluenorthwest]

24. Well the Prsident claims moral superiority on a regular basis

He claims, in fact, that he and his entire sort of person is 'sanctified by God' and that GLBT minorities are not. He says his kind are set apart, special and superior, worthy of rights that others should not have, Sacramental rights, only for sanctified types like Newt Gingrich.
So gee, a Sanctified Sacramental guy who is better than others inherently better find some way to frame his actions as ethical. Because in moments like this, he can not get by with pointing at others and claiming God is not thrilled with them.
So sure, one man, one woman, one moral high ground. Whatever lets you sleep at night.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. Heterosexual Privilege Is Not Unique To President Obama

.

[ruggerson]

73. True. But not too many were for marriage equality before they were against it

[Laelth]

27. Moral high ground? You have got to be kidding.

The moral high ground is held by those who oppose measures that weaken social security. The moral high ground is held by those who oppose tax cuts for the rich when the country is running record defecits.

The Republicans were going to cave to pressure to extend UI. They had in the past, and they would have done so again. The President gained nothing with his "deal." He holds no moral high ground.

-Laelth

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. Respectfully, When Did The Repubs Vote To Extend UI

During the Summer, benefits expired for five weeks, until Joe Manchin was seated, because they could only get two Repub votes to get the golden sixty.

Heck, Jim DeMented said it should be a loan program. The Repubs would probably require a credit score over 700.

[Laelth]

34. They would have caved.

They are as concerned about their constituents as Democrats are, and there are plenty of unemployed people in Republican districts. They would have caved without endangering Social Security, without extending tax breaks for the rich, and without the estate tax give-away.

UI benefits have been extended in the past, and I firmly believe they would have been extended again, without the President giving away the farm.

-Laelth

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. Except It Is "Our" Constituents Who Are Disproportionately Bearing The Burden Of Unemployment

African American Unemployment- 17%


Hispanic Unemployment -13%


.......
.......
.......

Unemployment (White, College Educated) -5%

The titular head of the Repugnant Party, Rush Limbaugh, said unemployment is your punishment for voting for Obama.

Again, we struggled to find two Repubs. Now we would have to find eight.

[killbotfactory]

40. So you would bet the bank on republicans doing the right thing?

You think we can get a better deal next year when republicans have more political power?
And you think that if they don't cave and people suffer even more for the next two years they will be holding the republicans accountable and not the democrats?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. I Posted This Before

The Republicans can stay stone hearted longer than the unemployed can remain solvent.

[killbotfactory]

48. That quote sums it up.

[Laelth]

51. There's very little risk here.

They don't want to look like scrooges. And they want to go home for the holidays.

Just a single bill on the UI extension (nothing else attached) would hhave done the trick. Keep 'em there 'til Midnight on Christmas Eve, if need be. Long before then, enough R's would sign off on it and let everyone go home.

This is not a big risk at all.

-Laelth

[ncteechur]

45. They would have? They would have passed them on their own and claimed the victory on their own.

They might have passed them in the new congress, the senate would have passed them and President Obama would have to sign them. And they might be for 2-3 months total. And John Boehner would have said claimed, "See how we work together when the republicans are in charge."

Remember that Jim Bunting single handedly held them up for how many days a few months ago. The new republican meme is that the unemployed don't deserve anymore benefits and that it is their fault they are unemployed.

[CakeGrrl]

57. Oh right, that's why they voted them DOWN the first time.

Yeah, they were bound to do the right thing. Such faith you have in the Republicans!

[shellgame26]

60. "they would have caved"--yeah right!

This is the most common phrase being thrown around. Do you honestly believe that come Jan the repubs would not simply have voted to make the millionaire tax cuts permanent? Instead, with this deal IT'S ONLY FOR 2 MORE YEARS. Plus we got a stealth stimulus package!

But I totally understand how easy it is to fall into the herd mentality. The meme around here is to bash the President constantly. If you're not doing that, then you're just not cool.

[TheKentuckian]

74. Real, real, real stealthy. So stealthy we'll never see it.

[shellgame26]

76. well im happy that

You're doing so well.

[shayes51]

38. I was going to write a similar post,

but you said it better than I could. Thanks.

[Bluerthanblue]

46. K&R

you speak the truth-

:hi:

[Dinger]

47. What About Bernie Sanders?

[CakeGrrl]

56. What has Bernie Sanders DONE? He gave a very pretty speech.

But that's right - those of you who are disgusted with Obama don't want someone who is just pretty speeches. That's bad, isn't it?

What ACTIONS is Bernie catalyzing to make things happen? To implement policy to start things moving in the right direction?

[AndrewP]

59. Making a point on the Senate floor against continued tax breaks for billionaires isn't a bad thing

for non DLC Democrats and liberals. I guess he could negotiate with the Republicans for a comprimise for his vote?

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

63. About time someone other than Obama gave a pretty speech.

[CakeGrrl]

69. They should have been doing this sooner. n/t

[Catherina]

50. LMAO. Unrec. n/t

[great white snark]

54. K&R

Once again our President chooses people over politics.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

55. how are we defining morality?

[bvar22]

58. "Moral High Ground!!!" (slapping thigh)..LOL!..Thats a good one.

There is NOTHING "Moral" about borrowing BILLIONS, giving MOST of it to Millionaires, and sending the BILL + Interest to our Children.

There is no such thing as a "Tax Cut" when running a deficit.
This is only re-financing and shifting the Pay Back burden to the Working Class.
Every single penny of the Obama/Republican "Tax Cut" WILL be repaid by our children.

In REALITY...This IS a Tax INCREASE on our CHILDREN (Borrowed Money + Interest).
How "MORAL" is THAT? :shrug:

Will YOU enjoy spending Your Children's Money?
...AND leaving THEM so in debt that they will NEVER be able to afford programs that will help their Working Class.

Welcome to NeoLiberalism and the New American Century!

[Forkboy]

64. This is the moral high ground in America these days.

:crazy:

[mstinamotorcity]

62. And did not

work out so well for them either.

[RetroLounge]

65. Ha!

:rofl:

RL

[Skittles]

75. I do give them points for trying but....

:rofl:

[Union Scribe]

66. You know, it's one thing to defend the compromise

by saying it was a necessary evil, but to pretend that it's a victory is preposterous.

[dflprincess]

68. I fail to see what is moral about defunding Social Security. n/t

[ljm2002]

70. Those on the lowest end of the economic spectrum...

...will see their taxes raised under the plan. So I'm having a little trouble following your logic here...

[Raine]

71. "moral high ground"

:spray: yeah sure :rofl: except it's not really funny at all :-( what's been done and will be done (regarding SS) is just :cry: in a word ... HORRIFIC. :nuke:

[Vidar]

72. In the same way Marshal Petain "saved" France in WWII.

[polichick]

77. I wouldn't call caving to hostage-takers the moral high ground. nt

[niceypoo]

78. He is prolonging the Great Recession for two additional years

...by extending the policy that caused it

[Phx_Dem]

79. ....

:kick:

[paulk]

83. moral high ground?

this has to be the most absurd argument yet.

laughable!