I GIVE UP!

[FrenchieCat]

Poll question: I GIVE UP!

I believe we have come to a point, when even I will admit,
there is no point in trying to provide information to enhance understanding
.....as it appears that minds are more than made up on the issue of Tax Cuts.

It's a sad thing for me, cause I've always operated under the assumption
that when dealing with Liberals, we tend to keep an open mind.

So....since
I have provided information, facts and numbers...

By the Numbers: 2011 Tax returns - Some Middle Class tax Scenarios (w/t & w/o)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=561422&mesg_id=561422

As of January 1, 2011........
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=388x25889


Documented context of the circumstances via evidence.....

Tax Debate Timeline -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=559655&mesg_id=559655


and even try to remind us who Democrats are supposed to argue for
above all else....

Liberals Arguing Tax Policies based on a MATERIAL Argument, rather than on the Basis of EMPATHY
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=560364&mesg_id=560364


What I know now is no one can change someone else's heart
when it comes to prioritizing what is truly important to each individual.

So I'll just ask instead,
what is your priority that is motivating you in this particular tax debate
to hold the view that you have about it?

[jaxx]

1. You wouldn't think you'd need to ask.

People come first, always.

[tosh]

2. My priority...

is for the long-term implications of this deal.

[FrenchieCat]

3. Hint?

[tosh]

12. It seems to me that ALL of our safety-net programs

become very vulnerable in the near future as a result of this deal.

Did you not listen to Senator Sanders' "fillibuster" on Friday? If not, you should. Everything he said made sense to me and I learned many things that I did not know and/or had not thought of before. He solidified my attitude on this deal.

[FrenchieCat]

14. Your attitude on this deal which is?

[tosh]

19. I hate the deal.

I am not saying that I fully blame The President for the deal.

The tax issue/unemployment issue should have been dealt with earlier in the year. I don't know whose fault that is.

I despise the Rethugs for the games they've been playing in the Senate and how shamelessly wicked they've become.

But this deal is bad, its cost is too great.

edit sp

[Jackpine Radical]

7. I think the SocSec threat is the thing that really hits me in the gut.

Believe me, the middle class would be a lot better off with no tax cut extension but with a secure SS program in their future.

The very low wage earners will do worse under this bill than they are now.

The bill also fails to help the long-term unemployed.

Al in all, I think it's a terrible idea. It's like putting a 30 year mortgage on our house in order to buy a car. 13 months of UE extensions (for some) is a hell of a trade for the death of SS and what will amount to permanent tax cuts for the wealthy.

[FrenchieCat]

9. So the Payroll tax holiday and what it perhaps maybe could signify

based on what you feel is more important than someone having the money for childcare.

Interesting.

[emulatorloo]

11. SS revenues aren't going to be affected by the 1 yr "tax holiday"

"Oh but it could!" People seem to be taking the "Worst Case Scenario" as the most likely scenario. Where as the most likely scenario is the year tax holiday will be over in a year.

[FrenchieCat]

16. It makes for a better rationale as to their stance.......

[emulatorloo]

18. it is like a non-sequiter and it feels like fear mongering.

Ezra Klein who seem to know the ins and outs of this better than any other reporter was asked about this claim, and indicated that it is not an issue.

I haven.t seen any actual fact-based reporting that indicates that the tax holiday leads to any impact on Social Security.

[FrenchieCat]

27. I consider it fear mongering.......

But then, that's me.

[Exilednight]

8. Same here. It's the long term damage these tax cuts will do that worry me. n/t

[FrenchieCat]

10. Cool!

[Exilednight]

44. There's nothing cool about it. It's like asking a person if they would rather

be hit in the kneecaps now with a baseball bat an spend a few months in the hospital undergoing rehabilition, or he can avoid the bat and be hit by a train in the next five years and having to live with brain damage for the rest of their life.

I'm sorry, but veto the tax cuts and hit me with the baseball bat.

[RandomThoughts]

4. For me, it does not make sense.

And nobody has decided to explain why the rich need tax breaks.

The only explanation is to make it hard on people. I posted about that years ago. Some think they are suppose to be mean to people to 'turn them to God' But that doesn't set much of an example.

And I think God could handle that, vengeance belongs to the Lord.

So I figure be nice and kind as you can, and he will figure out the rest. And be nice to people and help those in hardship.

I don't think God needs people to be mean or take things from people making them suffer to help them learn he is loving.


Anyways, heard that is the argument for being mean to people a few times. I think that is a trick, and don't listen to it. Then again, I don't have beer and travel money.

so :shrug:

[emulatorloo]

17. Tax cut part - $544.3 billion. $463 billion for 250k below, $81.5b for top 2%

The bulk of this money is not going to the rich.

Obama has said the top 2% tax cuts are a waste. He says they will not work and they are bad policy. The republicans say the rich need tax cuts to create jobs. When people on DU claim he is pushing the taxcuts for the rich he is not.

[RandomThoughts]

29. That is the point.

If they are going to lie about a compromise, as they will, and as they did.

Then they don't get it.

They trashed health care, then blamed that on the Democrats for it having the things they said on the news they pushed for.


My point is simple, the rich don't need a tax break, and can not explain why they should have it. Furthermore, they lie through media saying what they get in compromise is the fault of democrats.


If they want that as a compromise, they should say that is what they did in every campaign speech, or don't compromise with them. That would be an honorable integrity compromise.



Although not always possible to even know how much is what is correct, and what is spin, so the point is the ideal.


If the bill says that it is giving tax breaks to consolidated wealth, either the bill is wrong, or those saying that is what the bill is doing is wrong, so it has to change. And it seems the narrative is they used tax breaks for rich to get other things, if that is not the case, then the problem is the news. There is also a narrative that they used threats of not passing other bills and blaming the democrats to get tax cuts for those that don't need it.


If the information is not correct, or will not be correct on what is done, then don't do it, if you do then you are helping liars. If you know they will lie about it.


If the media is lying or distorting, then someone should say that till it is corrected.

See the point.



Side note, if it is about other things, and people are not told, then the system that does that has to come down, or be repaired.

[unapatriciated]

34. There is another way to look at it.

Try breaking it down to what an individual person receives and it plays out differently.

http://blog.reidreport.com/2010/08/who-benefits-from-th... /
This can’t be said enough. The top 2 percent of income earners benefited overwhelmingly from the Bush tax cuts, which you should remind yourself every day, were WRITTEN BY REPUBLICANS, TO EXPIRE at the end of this year. Now that John Boehner has grabbed a full day’s headlines with a bait and switch call for President Obama to fire his economic team, which was really just a ruse to get oxygen for the resuscitated corpse that is the GOP tax cuts and corporate welfare economic plan, it might be a good time to review “the math,” as Karl Rove might say. The chart below was produced by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. It shows who benefited most from the Bush tax cuts of 2003 and 2004, in terms of the average benefit families in various income groups would receive next year if the tax cuts were to be extended:

As you can see, the Bush tax cuts were a pretty sweet deal for the richest Americans, but not so much for average families. An explanation, from the Joint Committee on Taxation


The "rich" have had these tax cuts for nine years and did not create any significant amount of jobs. So I guess the answer is to give them two more years to do exactly the same.

[Exilednight]

43. Not only did they not create a .....

significant amount of jobs, for eight years they tore apart our economy and produced negative job growth. Even now the jobs that are being created, which probably aren't from the tax cuts, are not nearly as many as the jobs that were lost.

[lamp_shade]

5. Good, meaningful poll, Frenchie.

[Laelth]

21. It's a push poll.

And as push polls go, it accomplishes its task well. It "pushes" a particular point of view and attacks people who hold different points of view.

Hmm ...

Should we alert on it for that?

-Laelth

[FrenchieCat]

24. Go for it!

It's free.

[Laelth]

28. I very rarely alert, Frenchie, and I am not going to alert on you.

I prefer a more open, free-speechy DU.

-Laelth

[golfguru]

38. Please show me a poll which is NOT 100% push-pull.

[Laelth]

39. Self-delete.

My apologies for any confusion created by this post.

-Laelth

[FrenchieCat]

42. The only thing I edited was spelling deficit originally as deficity......

otherwise, nothing changed.

[Supersedeas]

65. Bingo -do you hate children or do you love reasonable capitulations or are you a cynical jerk poll?

If neither is your answer, then you must be a cynical jerk.

[Lefta Dissenter]

6. I share your frustration in trying to discuss the issues

As I said earlier, lately I've been feeling like an outsider here on DU. :(

[FrenchieCat]

13. Yep. I fear that we are not who we have been waiting for......

because if I saw us coming, my ass would run the other way.

When children's future can be used as a choice of priority over basics for some Children now,
you know that we've pretty much screwed the pooch.

It's the difference between grandparents that refuse to help their struggling children who have children now,

but is more than willing to promise that they will give their grandchild $10,000 when they graduate from college....like that would be when they would need the money the most. :eyes:

[TheKentuckian]

30. Basics for the poor starving children of the top 20%

What ever shall the poor dears do???

Or are you still trying to pretend we are doing this for the sakes of those who will gain 10-20 a week or perhaps those who will pay more next year than today that are barely treading water on good days?

How dare we not think of the shorties when we choose not wasting billions on the greedy to get a token or two to the needy. The lumping in the next 18% or so with everybody else was a genius marketing move to the line so that the upperclass would have minimal danger of losing their money funnel.

Middle class tax cuts my ass. The vast majority of the people in this nation make less than 75k a year and probably much less than that. Most of us won't see a benefit commiserate with with the liability, especially when it is all poof money invested in jack apple shit and will have nothing to show for it.

No, it isn't brave, smart, nor a display of empathy to make dinner with the seed corn. This isn't an investment for a better or more prosperous tomorrow but rather a puny bribe for the people to continue the dismantling of America and the movement of our shared resources into a few hands as spoils.

Hand to mouth desperation or greedy complicit gambling with all our futures for a few bucks a week is all I see and I find it distasteful to say the least.

[Hello_Kitty]

50. +1000. eom

[shellgame26]

45. There's clearly an organized effort here

to disrupt.
Whenever there is a post that isn't critical of the president, no matter how substantive it may be. The roving band of unreccers descend to shut it down. It's a shame that so many "on our side" have become just as dogmatic and authoritarian as the teabaggers. case in point. How many recs are there for this post?

[Enthusiast]

67. But this isn't substantive.

And that's the point. Unrecommended.

[Sheepshank]

69. I think you assume...

that there was a time when they were "on our side"

I don't think there has been a conversion as much as an infiltration.

[wndycty]

15. K&R

:kick:

[Laelth]

20. I seriously doubt that "giving up" is in your nature. n/t

-Laelth

[FrenchieCat]

25. Made you look!

:toast:

[Laelth]

26. Indeed, you did.

:toast:

-Laelth

[ZombieHorde]

22. "My Priority is Americans who may end up not having money for Childcare, Car Repairs, etc..."

FrenchieCat, you are one of the best debaters on DU. I really appreciate 90.02% of your posts, even when I disagree with them. I wish more of us made actual arguments.

[FrenchieCat]

23. Thanks you.....

I appreciate the compliment...
even if we don't always agree.
That's what I want too! Substansive debate.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blazerunner]

32. bullseye.

[boppers]

33. Find me any elected politician willing to scrap *all* the loopholes.

Just a single one will do. Many claim they're against the loopholes, until you point out exemptions for things they believe are "proper"... be it mortgage deductions, breeding deductions, whatever.

[FrenchieCat]

35. Your assumption that one is content is a great big leap

not bolstered by anything,

and calling those who "serve it"( whatever that means)
the enemy to millions is not any better.

I would love debating with you,
but considering your head on leap into hyperbole
(as your comment about the contentment of others)
means that you feel compeled to go so far just to make a point,
means your selection on the poll maybe ought to be
the "Mad as hell" one. No? :shrug:

[niceypoo]

36. In 13 months we will be here all over again

And they will want even more budget busting tax cuts.

[FrenchieCat]

37. Yes, you re right......it's far from perfect.......

which is why I guess they called it a tax compromise...

Life sure ain't easy, that I know.

[niceypoo]

54. The bandaid approach to curing cancer

[4dsc]

40. I don't like quitters

and quitting is exactly what every supporter of this bill is in my eyes.

[FrenchieCat]

41. Well, it is nice to have an eye that talks to you.

Sounds like you will never be lonely.

Thank goodness!

[killbotfactory]

46. People don't respond well to facts. Seriously.

When people encounter contrary facts, they dismiss them and hold on to their current beliefs even tighter. Especially when their beliefs are motivated more by emotion than logic.

[Hello_Kitty]

47. OH DEAR GOD WHAT ABOUT TEH CHYLLLDRUUUN??1!!??!1

Phony melodrama. :nopity: :eyes:

Relax, you're going to get your precious "victory" on the tax compromise. Just like you did on the shitty uh I mean "historic" HCR.

Sheesh.

[dave29]

49. scream all you want

kids are real, someone's gotta look after them. You can't buy groceries, and someone's gotta tell them why they can't put food in their mouths. Change will come when we stop acting like kids ourselves, and pretending solutions are as easy as tearing it all down and putting something else in place five minutes later.

[Hello_Kitty]

51. Uh, I'm not screaming. I'm mocking the OP for screaming.

Did the smilies not make it obvious? :shrug:

Seriously, you apologists are going to get your precious compromise this week. The melodramatic bullshit is really unnecessary.

[dave29]

52. It's not what we want

seriously. And in that sense, we aren't apologizing for shit.

So, whatever. It ain't precious, and I think you know the melodrama flies from every direction on DU. If you can't at the very least admit that, you are DUlusional.

[dave29]

48. Frenchie

thank you for constantly being vigilant for those that do not have a voice at this table.

Our party has historically stood for the down-trodden, the have-nots and those, through no fault of their own, who are unable to provide in times of the greatest uncertainty. It galls me to no end to see people who call themselves Democrats willing to stick the middle finger in the air because they are so frightened of giving some rich assholes a Pyrrhic victory that they well come to regret. "When will it end" they scream! It will end when our elected representatives stop behaving as we do, on these boards, so cocksure of their position, they are willing to let others fall into the abyss, right here, right now.

And unless I'm missing something, that end doesn't appear in sight.

[political_Dem]

57. [phone]. My thoughts as well.

[Clio the Leo]

53. *I* was under the assumption that liberals looked out for the needs of the less fortunate...

..... guess some of us are just more interested in scoring political points.

[FrenchieCat]

55. Come on....the Republicans on board. You know you want to vote!

for this one! My Priority is watching Obama fail, even if the country fails with him.

:rofl:

[lamp_shade]

56. That occurred to me when I first saw the poll. Perhaps they're afraid the mods will be able

to identify them.

[demwing]

58. My priority is a President who doesn't insult and abuse his base.

Who doesn't make proises, not keep the, and lie about that process.
Who puts the long term good of the people ahead of the short term profits of Wall Street
A President that I can trust.

[Kaleva]

63. I don't feel like I've been insulted or abused and I'm part of his base.

[emulatorloo]

64. If you feel insulted and abused you have a very thin skin

- being asked to think about how important the 2010 election was and get out and vote for democrats despite some disappointment is not abuse
- being asked to actually read a proposal before launching into vitriolic name calling is not an insult either. And I think that was aimed at "Opinion Makers" on TV adn Blogosphere anyway, not you and me.

[Enthusiast]

68. I share your priorities. nt

[Honeycombe8]

59. Your premise is false. It's not either-or. It's not bad bill vs. good bill. It's OBAMA...

and his failure to negotiate.

He apparently merely asked the Republicans what they wanted in order not to filibuster what Obama wanted. They gave him a list. He granted it.

That's not what I expect from the leader of the strongest country in the world. The emphasis being on the word "leader." Not follower.

He's too inexperienced for the job. He has been played like a fiddle by political pros. This disaster for him and the Democrats doesn't end here. It will come back to haunt him in 2012. And the Republicans know this and are gloating about this behind the scenes, disbelieving that this guy fell for this deal.

[demwing]

60. Obama has been quoted as saying he didn't care if he was a 1 term president

but it mattered to all of us who believed his hype and bought the hope.

It mattered.

I just don't trust the man. He has HIS agenda, and wants us to get his back. It should be the other way around.

[mmonk]

61. And the rest of us, our priority is always bad and stupid.

We know. We've been told repeatedly. So should we just not debate the issue anymore?

[Tatiana]

62. Frenchie, the bottom line is that any short term gain is not worth the long-term suffering

that is sure to come if this tax package goes forth. I am willing to forfeit my pretty decent tax cut I would receive under the proposed package in order to ensure that social security is safe and properly funded for my elders.

Instead of a payroll tax reduction, the $250 one-time COLA adjustment for SS should have been proposed. If that had happened, I might feel better about the Obama-McConnell negotiated package. But as it is, to me, it looks as though this package benefits people who are doing pretty damn well or pretty okay, while leaving the most vulnerable among us to continue their suffering.

This was a bad deal; Reid is an a-hole for not twisting arms and cajoling the Maine Twins to get on board and vote for the middle class package already passed by the House. And the President needs to learn to stop negotiating with hostage takers... this will only make them take future hostages.

[dbmk]

66. Poll leaves out an important option

What if one thought that it was possible to keep the tax cuts for the lower incomes without caving on the lapse of the tax cut for the higher incomes?

That the gains could have been gotten at a smaller cost?

[jtuck004]

70. Aww, Frenchie, don't feel bad. The bill is likely going to pass in

very much it's current form. Surely you know that.

[okieinpain]

71. excellent post and poll, I love the questions and that all got

votes is wonderful.