Deaniacs: One more time into the breach, my friends. Howard has made the call

[thunder rising]

If Howard Dean says the Bill is crap, it's crap. He has worked miracles in Vermont making stone soup and getting nearly every Vermonter insured. So, if he says there is nothing in the bill to build on, what more needs to be said?

Are we still here? Do we still have a voice?

[BeFree]

1. What more?

What does Howard say to do now? Or is he like so many of yall saying: Just Quit?

[depakid]

4. He's saying "quit fucking around with these fools and get going with reconconcilliation"

[BeFree]

Yep

Good plan, eh?
We really need to keep our foot in the door. After 50 years of being locked out, and our foot now in the crack, it's time to make sure the door remains open. Yeeeeha!!

[lyonn]

6. Apparently reconciliation is better than the bill that "Joe" approves

Reconciliation is a slow go and can't be used for every issue on heath care but at least it wouldn't be a giveaway to big corporate health scam. Has anyone heard of something in the remaining bill that would truly hold down premium costs?

[damntexdem]

24. Sen. Burris could force it that way if he refuses to vote for cloture with this bill.

But it doesn't look good at all.

[quakerboy]

68. Snowe and Collins

I think it would take Burris and at least 2 more senators to block it from the left.

[karynnj]

34. Me

Here are a few things that will hold done premiums:
1) Reinsurance for catastrophic costs. This was called the best idea of the 2004 campaign by several pundits - and no, it was not Dean's idea but the idea of the man who chaired Small Business where the problem of sky rocketing costs to insure employees after an employee became extremely ill with something that generated high costs. This, incidentally, is a critical component to enacting the ban on pre-existing conditions.

2) A provision that enables the exchange to do what the MA Connector does - to provide information on the competing plans and to negotiate with the plans on costs. This saved 6% in MA.

3) The tax on Cadillac plans has been identified by various economists as something that will start to bend the cost curve.

I assume there are other things. I know of all of these as they were all things that Senator Kerry fought for in the Finance Committee. I seriously doubt that ALL the cost containing features in the bill were Kerry's.

[karynnj]

30. Ignoring the fact that many very knowledgable Senators

have made the point that you can't get a bill this complicated through reconciliation - everything not related to budget can be stripped out. Dean was never a Senator.

[LooseWilly]

32. I think you're ignoring the fact that what can't be gotten through reconciliation...

isn't worth the cost in giveaways to the health insurance industry required in this bill.

The reconciliation process is an option to try to salvage something from this fiasco... Much would be lost by this procedure, but the giveaways make the bill as is not worth doing. It must be killed.

[GOTV]

73. The parts not compatible with rec. are popular and can be passed in a separate billl ...

... through the normal processes

[grassfed]

2. kick

[KansasVoter]

3. WRONG! When Dean likes the bill DU likes him. When he hates the bill DU hates him! It is that simple

[Cha]

17. I call bullshit on your post. I'm a Deaniac and I know he

has America in his best interests.

[KansasVoter]

28. I was being sarcastic.

[ima_sinnic]

35. self-delete

[kenny blankenship]

5. I'm waiting to hear the rest.

Howard Dean has bent over backwards to stay on board with the process no matter how appalling it became - I gave up on it many weeks ago. If he's says the bill is crap, it's crap brulée. If he's got a new direction he wants to go, I want to hear it.

[thunder rising]

7. Exactly! He has put more into public health care than any other. brulée, without the caramel means

it's just crap. :-)

[karynnj]

36. He is a piker in what he did on public health care compared to Senator Kennedy

Dean ran on his excellent children's health care plan - but it was the VT version of the national SCHIP plan. Without SCHIP, there would have been no Dean plan as its funding was via the SCHIP plan.

Here are some VT charts, Dean was Governor from August 1991 until 2002, there is NOTHING that meets your OP description. http://www.leg.state.vt.us/jfo/Healthcare/Introduction%20to%20Vermonts%20Health%20Care%20System.pdf

[enlightenment]

45. Unfortunately, Senator Kennedy is dead.

What he did in the past is irrelevant to what Mr. Dean might do now.

[thunder rising]

47. Your concern is noted ... but HD used every available means to extend coverage to everybody

[gkhouston]

10. +1. I hope he's on Countdown or The Rachel Maddow Show tonight. He's one

of the few public figures who's been discussing the situation in a rational, well-informed way throughout the process. Too many other people sound like they're reading talking points a staffer gave them five minutes previously that they may not understand or personally espouse.

[valerief]

8. But how is the giveaway to ins cos going to be killed? It's like killing a war bill, I think.

Impossible.

[Stinky The Clown]

9. This (**still**) self-identified Clarkie is standing shoulder to shoulder with you.

[Tom Rinaldo]

13. Ditto (the old fashioned +1) n/t

[thunder rising]

51. Stinky is hereby nominated into the club with all rights and privileges.

[Stinky The Clown]

57. I'm honored!

Thank you.

[janx]

62. And I second that nomination!

Go, Stinky! :toast:

[zulchzulu]

11. Take a nice big crap on those not covered due to pre-existing conditions...

...cuz' it just feels so good...


:crazy:

[Jersey Devil]

12. I hear ya

All the so called "principled" progressives who are ready to throw those who are uninsured due to pre-existing conditions to the wolves so that they can feel so good about their moral superiority like they were sliding around a chair in silk underwear, well, they ought to be ashamed of themselves.

[flpoljunkie]

14. Sherrod Brown says it's a good bill, not a great bill, and he will support it.

We have to work with the corrupted Congress we have, not the one we would like to have. They are in thrall to the health care special interests who fill their campaign coffers.

It would be great if Dorgan's drug reimportation bill passes, but it won't. And, if he does, Lautenberg's bill will nullify it, according to Dorgan himself, on C-Span's Morning Journal this morning.

The AARP supports Dorgan's bill, I might add.

[Milo_Bloom]

15. Does almost nothing for those with pre-existing conditions.

So many loopholes, it only creates the illusion of protection.

No cost controls.
Cap limits in place.
Can reject for other reasons (low credit score, etc.)

It actually does more harm than good, as it takes the issue off the table for 20+ years.

[Jersey Devil]

18. It sets up these other issues for discussion and action

Once the ball is rolling and problems like the ones you describe become common then legislation can be proposed to fix these items incrementally. First there is a ban on rejection for pre-existing conditions. Then if insurance companies jack up premiums for those with pre-existing conditions it can be dealt with legislatively.

One thing everyone is overlooking here is that many of these issues can be solved (and some have already been) by the states individually. But before they can be addressed you must have a universal rule that no pre-existing conditions can mean rejection.

[Milo_Bloom]

21. What fantasy land is this coming from?

The loopholes are written into the legislation in many cases out of the desperation this administration had with getting the insurance companies on board.

The check was always supposed to be the public option. You take it away, you simply have a destructive bill that only pretends to do what it is supposed to.

This bill doesn't "start the ball rolling". It takes the issue entirely off the table for years to come or do you think the insurance companies are suddenly going to let them get rid of all the loopholes they fought so hard for?

Haven't we been through enough of this is recent history for people to realize this isn't the start of something? It is closing the books on the discussion for years to come.

[Jersey Devil]

23. Doing nothing is not an option

Doing nothing means not a single person is added to the insurance rolls and is immoral.

[Milo_Bloom]

39. Doing nothing is the only option left.

Doing this means 20+ years of substandard care, killing more people than it would help.

Having a "political victory" at the cost of the hundreds of thousands of people who will suffer while nothing can be done is far worse than pulling this abortion of a bill and letting the American people know that this is in their hands come 2010 and make the 2010 election ABOUT getting a proper health care bill passed.

[thunder rising]

46. It's not about doing nothing, it's about Harry splitting the bill and using reconciliation.

[Milo_Bloom]

70. If they bring back the Public option in reconciliation, then it is all good.

.. however, do you REALLY believe that will happen?

[Better Believe It]

25. Right. What are the chances Congress will tackle the insurance companies soon ?

There are no government controls on insurance premiums, drug costs and other medical costs proposed in this legislation .... none.

But, the insurance industry and big Pharma have promised to reduce their profits and prices .... sure they will.

We should trust them?

[Jersey Devil]

26. Who said we should trust them?

All I am saying is that by legislating parts of the health care plan like mandatory coverage for those with pre-existing conditions, by necessity these other problems will begin to fester and at some point they will have to be treated just like an infected lesion. It may take too long for some, but without the initial step there would never be any way the issue could be forced to the front.

[zulchzulu]

66. If a bill is passed, you can make amendments. If a bill dies, you have to start all over again

Surely, if a bill is not perfect, you have two choices.

One, pass the bill and make amendments (as all good bills start off as)...

or...

Two, kill the bill and make those who were against it in the first place exceptionally happy and grateful... at your expense.

It's akin to working at repairing a home vs. blowing the home up with all the stuff inside and having nothing but rubble to start over with.

[Milo_Bloom]

69. Yes, it is time to kill the bill.

[Tom Rinaldo]

20. I have no insurance. I can't afford it

I will not support this bill though it is argued I am one of those it is meant to help.

[OneGrassRoot]

22. The mandates without an affordable public option is what kills it for me...

I can't afford it either.

There are positives for some people, which is wonderful; yet there are millions of us for whom this will be a tremendous detriment, given the mandate situation. Unless we are concerned for no reason? I've asked about this all day long and haven't received a response, so I remain very concerned about the mandate.

I'd rather have small positive change for everyone, rather than positives for some citizens and absolute negatives for other citizens. On balance, that doesn't seem like a good move.

[OKNancy]

40. Same boat Tom

If the subsidy is 300% of poverty level, I might get some help there, but it really sucks.

[thunder rising]

48. Same boat Nancy, I'm not paying $500/mo for what amounts to prepaid emergency room care

Which happens to lower the premiums of the high end plans sense now all of us outcasts are forced to prepay for any emergency we might have. While, still dieing of cancer because the emergency didn't show up until too late.

Die Quickly!! (but painfully ... no drugs for you)

[karynnj]

37. Exactly and even beyond people with pre-existing conditions, look at the cost for a family with $54k

income and 2 kids.

Nate Silver's analysis is excellent here. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/15/4024/7653

[Milo_Bloom]

42. LMAO

If you think a family of 4 earning a combined total of 54K per year can afford 4K per year, it is as bat flipping crazy as this analysis!

[karynnj]

56. It depends where you live

Manhattan likely not - many other places, where housing is less - they probably could and, if they are without insurance they may already be paying a hefty part of that seeing doctors. The fact is they are assuming two kids. They will need to see pediatricians even to go to school.

Note he says the emphasis would be better placed on improving the subsidies.

[xchrom]

16. Shrug -- I'll make more calls

And do more of the activist stuff-- but at this point I don't think there's much
good to be gained.

[OHdem10]

19. Loud and Clear.

[karynnj]

27. "Don't follow leaders, read the parking meters" sounds good to me

Dean did NOT get nearly every Vermonter insured. Look at page 10 in this VT state PDF http://www.leg.state.vt.us/jfo/Healthcare/Introduction%20to%20Vermonts%20Health%20Care%20System.pdf Look at page 18, that plots the Census estimate of percent uninsured in VT vs the entire US. Dean was Governor from August 1991 to 2002. (Note - this is not a bad record - but the op's statement is overblown.

One thing that INCREASED the number insured in that time period was VT's version of SCHIP, where Kennedy deserves more credit than Obama, who was involved with the IL plan or Dean with the Vt one.

[JVS]

29. YEEEEEAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!

[PassingFair]

31. I always look to Howard for the truth.

If he says the bill has been gutted, it's been GUTTED.

Reconciliation or BUST!

[smoochpooch]

55. Is he holding a bong and a gun?!

What an awesome photo!

[IndianaGreen]

33. Kill the bill!

Let's go the reconciliation route.

We didn't elect Joe Lieberman President of the United States.

[Raine]

38. Dean is one of the very few I trust

I'll follow his lead.

[Dinger]

41. Is It Time For A Draft?

I don't know.

[Sebastian Doyle]

43. Once again, Dr. Dean speaks the truth.

The bill is complete shit, thanks to Liberdouche, Baucus and the rest of the false "Democrat" traitors.

Howard does have more faith than I do in the reconciliation process though. I'm not sure Spineless Harry is up to it.

[slay]

44. I will back up Howard on this one

and most things. He is dead on bout this shitty bill. We do indeed still have a voice and my voice agrees with Dr. Dean.

[Odin2005]

49. The doc's right. KILL THE BILL.

[rvablue]

50. I was never a "deaniac" but I trust him implicitly.

He was trying to stay true and support what was happening, although imperfect.

He has now said, kill it.

I trust him.

[thunder rising]

52. You have said the magic words: rvablue is hereby nominated into the club.

I trust HD as a wind vane more than I trust Obama. Dean did not run to win, he ran as a strong Democrat.

[rvablue]

53. Don't need to be nomited into any "club," I just like fact and truth.

And don't mean to be too testy (I'm seriously pissed about these HCR revelations!) but weather vane ain't the best moniker....in fact, it's the one I employ for Tweety -- might mean "harbinger" but can also mean "fair weather." :)

[thunder rising]

54. Semantics are everything: can we settle on compass?

[rvablue]

59. Compass is good. Helping us find our way.

I didn't support him in 2004. Maybe I should have. Doctor Dean is a national treasure and speaker of truth! :patriot:

[Rosa Luxemburg]

58. what about Bernie Sanders amendment?

[NoPasaran]

60. Okay, once again Howard Dean speaks for me

Kill this mofo dead

[quiller4]

61. Howard Dean does not speak for me. I've already encouraged my senators to support the bill

and both Washington senators are announcing they will.

[NoPasaran]

63. Well isn't that special

[thunder rising]

71. (whispers) it looks like a Lieberman concern troll or an insurance guy.

[patrice]

65. Can you specify why you support this twisted piece of crap

[patrice]

64. Whom should we call and when?

It isn't out of committee yet is it?

[wisteria]

67. Nonsense- there is always a foundation to build on in a bill. n/t

[Vidar]

72. K&R.