Just throwing this out there: Wouldn't it have been better if we captured, rather than killed OBL?

[whathehell]

That would make it "proof positive".

Please don't flame..I'm just asking:shrug:

[tekisui]

1. I'm not convinced they could have taken him alive.

[whathehell]

5. You may be right....But wouldn't it have been worth a try?....As it is,

I heard two competing "versions of events" this morning:

One was that they "tried" to get him to surrender,

and the other was they were just directed to kill him,

and this does seem to be the final version.

[Mz Pip]

9. Osama has had years to surrender.

I don't think he ever had any intention of being captured alive or dead. He probably figured he was safe forever.

[tekisui]

10. It isn't clear what the order was. But, yes they should have tried.

[CakeGrrl]

21. According to today's presser, they left ALL options open, but

a firefight necessitated the kill.

As I understand it, they're weighing the options of what evidence to make public, including a death photo and footage of the burial at sea.

[whathehell]

27. Sounds good. n/t

[SadPanda]

17. According to todays reports the mission was ordered to kill if he didn't surrender...

If he did surrender they had orders to take him alive. But from everything I read it was a quick and violent fire fight. With a massive assault by US Navy seals I'd guess this all lasted just a few minutes. Please understand, from an operational standpoint, Bin Laden could have had a button in that house that blows the entire compound up. You can't wait and ask him to quit. You go in and if someone is firing a weapon you kill them. Secure the house as quickly as possible.

[whathehell]

24. I understand that there was a firefight, and yes, he could have had a button

that could have blown them all to hell...I get that.

I'm just trying to get all the possible scenarios.

It could have been entirely too dangerous to try

and take him without a surrender.

[SadPanda]

30. I just told you what they were trained for... hypotheticals mean nothing...

Dozens of men trained for this mission. End of story.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whathehell]

62. Well, excuse me,

but who the hell are you?

The number of posts here

tell me your "end of story"

was a tad premature.:eyes:

[Sheepshank]

41. OBL would have wanted to die as if he were a Martyr..capture wasn't an option

there really was no option for him other than to 'die by cop' (replace cop with SEAL).

[Avant Guardian]

71. Theres an old poster out west....

lol

[Very_Boring_Name]

45. not if it risked the lives of the people trying to capture him

Which it did.

[whathehell]

54. Yes, I've come to believe that. This was probably the best way.

I concede..Now I hope I don't

have anyone else here accusing of

all manner of things

for having the temerity to simply

throw out an alternative scenario.:eyes:

[Teaser]

70. who says they didn't try?

You don't know if they tried to get him to surrender or not. You never will.

[whathehell]

79. I don't believe I ever stated that I knew...

and btw, I "conceded" -- about 20 posts ago -- the point of many here,

that it was probably impossible to safely take him alive.

[GomezLives]

2. What if he would have set off a bomb and killed

everyone in the compound??

[whathehell]

6. A good point.

[valerief]

3. The only ones who care are freepers and they won't accept anything anyway, so what

does it matter? The most important thing is how does this announcement affect the average person?

[whathehell]

8. Well...Not necessarily...Quite a few DUers are so distrustful of government at this point

and I'm afraid I must admit to being one of those, that they feel

they need a picture or tape or some visual evidence to be certain.

[valerief]

40. But what difference does it make? If the govt says no more OBL, what does that mean to us?

Does that mean less war funding? More tax revenue for jobs?

[whathehell]

43. A little soon to know, don't you think?

although some dems are moving to "greatly reduce" troops or end the war entirely.

[valerief]

49. That's what I'm hoping the effect of killing OBL will be! nt

[whathehell]

50. Yes, that would be great. n/t

[napi21]

4. NO! With all the griping about trials of the currenet prisoners

involved in 911 never being permitted to be held in any US State, where would you take Osama? All capturing him woud have doe would have been to create a circus and probably for years! Besides, Osama has always said he will NEVER be captured alive!

[whathehell]

13. I get your point too.

My major concern was simply credibility, and possibly

getting some information out of him, although that last

seems particularly unlikely....I wouldn't have cared

if he was tried at Gitmo, he took responsibility for 9/11.

[Life Long Dem]

63. And then we would see Osama as a defendent...

who is innocent until proven guilty. Did anyone really want to see the truth of the 911 attack anyway? We're taking the psychological benefit of getting a bad guy.

Would it have been a circus court under the Obama admin? Under Bush it was a circus court because they kept it that way, but under Obama, things may have been a little more transparent.

[TheCowsCameHome]

7. How would that have made things better?

The problems with having a trial for someone like OBL and all that goes with it would have been incredible.

This is much better.

[whathehell]

14. Only that it would have provided incontestable truth.

[napi21]

28. Lawrence O'Donnell just mentioned that there are photographs,

but they are very gruesome and there's great debate over wether they shouldd be released publicly. On an earlier MSNBC program one of the "experts" talked about DNA that proves the body was really Osama's. I'm SURE there's sufficient proof. Give it some time.. It's only been 24 hours!

[whathehell]

35. I heard that...Thanks. n/t

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

11. No - what would be done with him?

A trial would have been an enormous problem. Where would he be tried, and by whom? Any trial, no matter where it was held, would create a huge security nightmare. What if he were acquitted (unlikely, I know)? If he were convicted, where would he be imprisoned? Would that place be a target for terrorist attacks? What about the attorneys, the judge and jury - would they be safe? If he got the death penalty, how would it be carried out? By whom?

As far as I'm concerned there's no question the bastard is dead. They have DNA and the identification of one of his wives. I hardly think they'd have made this announcement unless they had 100% proof.

[TheBigotBasher]

12. Remember the civillian trials issue?

Imagine the fuss Fox and the literally heartless, un-dead former VP would have made of his capture.

[Phx_Dem]

15. No way. We'd have terrorists hijacking planes and using Bin Laden

as ransom. He'd be a martyr while awaiting trail and afterwards.

Thankfully, he picked up a weapon and fired on us and saved us all the trouble.

Dead and done. Good fucking riddance mother fucker.

[whathehell]

26. Just to be clear....This alternative had little, from my perspective,

to do with HIS welfare, more to do with appearances, proof, etc.

I don't for a minute think he was "innocent"...and the various responses

here have given me "food for thought"....I basically just wanted

to be "talked down".

[handmade34]

32. this thought passed through

my little brain for a quick second... but, no, it was good that Bin Laden was ultimately killed. I read somewhere that the soldiers were told to take him alive if possible, but it wasn't. It would have been a lot of time, energy and nonsense if he had been taken alive. The deniers are irrational and don't respect fact and truth anyways...

At some point we must stop being fearful and mistrustful...

[handmade34]

33. dupe

[SadPanda]

16. It's kind of a false argument.... the only way to take him alive was surrender

And he was never going to surrender.

[islandmkl]

18. the doubters...of whatever ilk or persuasion

will always doubt...

there is no upside to capturing him live, except for those who want a 'show trial'...

which would most likely bring on the more-severe actions of the AQ than even OBL's death...

fuck him...if he needed a trial, he should have sought one...

it isn't assassination when you are attacking the leader of the war against you...

[Keith Bee]

19. Throwing it back

;-)

[whathehell]

25. I threw out a question...

You're throwing nothing

back but blanks.;-)

[Solomon]

47. After being forced to "show his papers" just to prove that he is

an American citizen, if you think Obama would do anything without making sure there is absolute proof, then I don't know what to tell you.

Even if they had brought back the body or even Bin Laden alive, it still wouldn't satisfy you. You've already admitted that you don't trust the government. Had they broought back Bin laden, you'd be posting some other "question - just throwing it out there".

[whathehell]

48. Too bad you weren't here earlier yesterday morning...

as you would have seen a lot more than than one person who felt the same way as I did, so please

don't tell me what I would or wouldn't do, Solomon....You don't know

me at ALL.

[lindalou65]

66. Bin Laden proof of death

DNA would be unequivocal proof and they have done that. I think it would be pretty stupid of Obama to not make sure it truly was Bin Laden before he proclaimed his death. Then all we would need is for a video to pop up .....I don't think Obama would take a chance of being wrong.

[Swede Atlanta]

20. Fair question....

News reports (which are always much less than the total set of facts) suggest that the SEALS ordered OBL to surrender more than once and he refused. They had orders to bring him in "dead or alive" and their option was to kill him. Panetta is quoted as saying that the military orders were to kill him (with no option to bring him in alive). I doubt that.

But as I often say when a gunman kills himself, it is probably for the best. Imagine the challenges and issues that we would have faced had we taken him alive. Gitmo? Trial where? Ideally in a courthouse within view of Ground Zero. What is his status?

So I think this ended as well as it possibly could have. There will be many conspiracy theories about whether or not we killed him since we don't have a prisoner or at least the body. But I think they did the right thing to "bury" him within 24 hours in accordance with Muslim tradition. There are some issues with the sea burial but given the alternatives I think they did the right thing.

[Scottybeamer70]

22. I do wonder who

was doing the videotaping while the bullets were flying.
If they took him alive, he could talk......can't have that!!

[DevonRex]

23. No. Where would he be held and tried? We can't even get congress to close gitmo

Security for a trial would be a nightmare.

[creeksneakers2]

29. His supporters would kidnap

and attempt to swap hostages for his release. Maybe even some high profile hostages.

[treestar]

31. In an ideal world

But then in an ideal world, he would not have planned the hijacking of four planes by suicide bombers and killed nearly 3000 people.

[OhioBlue]

36. On this one.. I'm glad they killed him

I think capture would have led to a greater martyrdom for him, plus increased terrorist activity to pressure/negotiate a release... I don't want the spectacle of a trial on this one. He was an evil SOB and needed removed from this earth. I'm glad he is dead. I'm glad it is bringing closure to some families. i think it is also bringing closure to a lot of Americans more than we even know. Pres O is a f'in superhero right now in my mine. Bush fucks everything up for 8 years... Pres O comes in and does it right. He's got a lot of shit to work on.. but dammit... he's juggling it all and making progress everywhere. I've never been more proud of him.

[Malikshah]

37. Work it out in your head first

Who would have custody
Who would bring charges
Where
When
Who would defend

Each question has multiple answers from multiple players
Each answer would be contested multiple times over

Where is the justice?

We are a society of laws. Where does that leaves in the end here


But if that is what you want to argue...go ahead


Enjoy th MCF

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vaberella]

39. It wouldn't matter. Then end is is the end. Obama got all the intel. That's the key. n/t

[RoadRage]

42. Nope

I just think of all of his "minions" running around capturing & kidnapping American's all over the world DEMANDING that he be released or the hostages will be killed.

By killing him outright, we probably saved hundreds of American lives. And, it's not like Osama was going to tell us anything - even if tortured I think the guy would have just kept his mouth shut. And, it would be difficult to torture him anyway - the media would be all over it constantly.

This was the best & safest way to get rid of the problem IMO.

[Wait Wut]

44. I thought so at first.

But, his followers could possibly have been more energized/motivated if they knew he was being held prisoner by the evil American empire. After further contemplatin'...it's better this way. Over, done.

[yellowcanine]

46. We don't actually know that they didn't try....... don't believe everything you read.

Particularly now. Ever hear of the "fog of war"?

[whathehell]

52. Again....It was just a question

and yeah, I've heard of the "fog of war"..I've even lived through it.:eyes:

[yellowcanine]

57. When you say, "Wouldn't it have been better if.......?" it is not JUST a question.

Sorry - but there was an opinion embedded in that question. Let's have some intellectual honesty please. The way a question is asked can anticipate or preclude certain answers.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whathehell]

64. "The way a question is asked can anticipate or preclude certain answers"

Really?...It certainly doesn't seem to have "precluded"

many here, considering the hostility and paranoia

it's generated in SOME...and guess what?

There's no "intellectual dishonesty" at all

I DID think it MIGHT have been better if he

were taken alive -- So What? -- It's why I put

it out for discussion, you know,..um..'cause this IS

a "discussion board" and all?

If you had bothered to read my replies to

other LESS hostile respondents than yourself

you might have seen that I CHANGED my opinion

about twenty posts ago...You OKAY with that?

Or is it just "Tough Poopies" again?

[cherokeeprogressive]

51. Personally, I think holding him would have put American lives in jeopardy all over the world.

It also would have heightened the likelihood that there would be terrorist incidents in this country as protests.

I know it's a six in one, half-dozen in the other proposition, but I'm glad it happened this way.

[Cleita]

53. Don't worry, you will get flamed. n/t

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whathehell]

65. Yes...

My response to you, which I thought was rather tame

was deleted. It makes me wonder if I'm

getting "flamed" by the Mods, too:eyes:

[Cali_Democrat]

56. Lets assume for a minute that Bin Laden was captured alive and put on trial

How ridiculous would it look if the US government's only evidence presented in court is a grainy video tape that many people consider to be questionable? The prosecution would be laughed out of the court room.

There's a reason why Bin Laden was shot and killed even though he was clearly unarmed. The goal all along was to kill him

[Cleita]

58. Also, some very uncomfortable for the Bush family crimes

could be revealed about their dealings with him, his family and the Saudi royals. Those hidden crimes could emerge in a trial, particularly if he were tried in a world court. I'm certain the BFEE's are breathing more comfortably that he has taken that knowledge to the grave with him.

[johnaries]

60. Well, sure! But OBL wasn't going to let that happen.

So our SEALS did what they had to.

[BklnDem75]

61. Would that be your approach...

when attempting to confront the head of an organization known to 'martyr' themselves with explosives?

[Honeycombe8]

67. NO! nt

[whathehell]

68. Thanks for your opinion! n/t

[AdrianInOcala]

69. No, too complicated

How do you handle his detention, how do you try him, who carries out the punishment, what jurisdiction gets him first, etc. Two bullets saved a lot of headaches for the US (No pun intended)

[Harmony Blue]

72. That headache

may have been worth it if Bin Laden was brought before the justice system. This is why I disagree with many that killing Obama was brought to justice. That brand of justice was called the "Wild West" that I learned back in the day in high school. But I understand why the SEAL team did what they did given the circumstances. It is unclear though if he was killed or assassinated based on conflicting information coming out of the U.S. government, and Pakistani government.

[AdrianInOcala]

73. No matter how he died

One side will claim he was murdered/assasinated/martyred. The other will claim he resisted/attacked/forced that action against him.

A 'trial' in the sense we are used to, would have been impossible, imo.

In a perfect world, there would be a way to arrest him, try him and sentence him, and everyone would agree with the legitimacy of it, in Bin Laden's case, could you even try him for War Crimes at The Hague or similar, since no war has ever been legally declared?

[woo me with science]

74. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1033101

[athena]

75. Edited to remove snark.

First, a terrorist who recruits and trains people to blow themselves up in the name of jihad would be unlikely to go along with being captured alive.

Furthermore, the SEALs had to be careful to ensure that Bin Laden did not blow up the place while they were trying to keep him alive.

This was a much more dangerous mission than people seem to realize.

[whathehell]

77. Thanks for removing the snark...

It's more than a few others did here.:eyes:

and btw, I've come to agree with those like you

who've said it was probably impossible to safely

take him alive.

I'm very proud of the President and the Navy Seals

for their bravery and skill.

[athena]

80. We liberals are touchy these days.

After all the birth-certificate nonsense, the last thing people want to hear is nitpicking about this great accomplishment. If it had been Bush who captured Bin Laden, most of the people here would have congratulated him, despite disagreeing in general with his politics. It is really disgraceful of the conservatives to congratulate Bush, claiming that Obama simply followed in his footsteps. I understand that your post was in response to early reports suggesting that the order was to kill Bin Laden, not to capture him alive. Don't feel that the flaming is directed at you personally. It's just that people are tired of having to argue endlessly about every single thing and overly suspicious of comments that sound like criticism.

[whathehell]

81. Agreed....I just think some of "us" are touchier than others

and it does get tiresome...For God's sake, it IS

a "discussion" board, last I checked.:eyes:

You could say the sky is blue here and

I honestly believe someone would disagree

with you....It's the way this place is,

and often reminds me why democrats, progressives,

liberals, whatever we call ourselves

have a hard time advancing our own agenda...Way

too much suspicion and infighting.

[Cali_Democrat]

76. You ask a legitimate question., but for me it's not about the proof he was dead

I think he's obviously dead. Personally, I think it would have been better if he was captured alive so that he could be tried and convicted in court. Also, wouldn't we want to capture the world's most wanted terrorist so that we could interrogate him and p[possibly prevent future attacks?

[whathehell]

78. I hear you....After reading many of the comments here, I've come to believe it was

probably impossible to take him alive.

Proud of the Prez, proud of the Seals.:patriot: