If you kill someone who is pointing a gun or shooting at you it is NOT execution or assassination.

[elocs]

OBL might have believed he would never have been taken alive, but the moment he pointed a gun at a Navy Seal his fate was sealed and ultimately it was his choice. It really takes a birther type of fool to believe that OBL was not armed and would not have killed anyone he could when caught.

[Capitalocracy]

1. I could see them shooting him either way...

but I'm inclined to believe he would shoot back. He seemed to enjoy playing with AK-47s on video. I'm sure he thought he was freakin' Rambo.

[Eric J in MN]

2. The White House didn't claim UBL was holding a gun.

A reporter asked John O. Brennan today if UBL was holding a gun, and Brennan said, “He was engaged in a firefight.”

That doesn't answer the question.

[OHdem10]

6. At todays WH Briefing, Director Brennan said Osama put up afight

there was a firefight and he was killed.

The Mission was to bring Osama out. If they could capture
without killing, great. If they had to kill, they would.

They knew Osama would never go down without a fight so
the kill order was in place.

[Eric J in MN]

8. But Brennan refused to give a yes-or-no about whether UBL was holding a gun.

Putting up a fight could mean the actions of his bodyguards.

[Distant Observer]

3. Why is this and issue. Most drone strikes can't distinguish innocent and guilty, aggressive or not

[uppityperson]

10. Because the Seals killed him, not a drone

[coalition_unwilling]

4. If you kill someone after you're ordered to kill someone, is that

an execution or assassination?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/us-binladen-kill-idUSTRE7413H220110502

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

16. Yes. Either. Both. What you have to ask is...

Is this a legal/lawful order?

I suspect this was not a big concern for the team that was sent.

[coalition_unwilling]

19. Executive Order 11905, signed by Ford and subsequently retained

in modified form by Reagan, expressly forbade the use of U.S. intelligence assets to assassinate foreign leaders.

Not an attorney so don't know whether 11905 applies here (or even whether it is still in force after Bush eviscerated the rule of law).

I sure hope someone in the chain of command considered the question, since the last time I checked the U.S. Constitution forbade bills of attainder. Again, though, not an attorney so don't know whether the ban on bills of attainder applies here, since it it Congress that would have to pass said unconstitutional bill of attainder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

30. Would that apply to Osama?

OBL was not a foreign leader. He wasn't the president or prime minister of any country.

[coalition_unwilling]

39. I don't honestly know. I suppose from a purely technical point of view,

EO 11905 would not apply to OBL. But again, I hasten to add, I'm not an attorney nor a historian of the Church Committee's output and legislation (like FISA) and EOs it inspired.

The question before us that you posed is whether the order to kill OBL was a lawful order. I was supplying what little legal material I am aware of that pertains to the question.

I know that some DUers on this thread and others today have said this was a 'clean kill,' although I'm not sure how grounded in the law such an assertion is.

Just so you're clear on where I'm coming from, I never bought the need for military action in response to 9-11, seeing it as primarily a matter for law enforcement and due process of the law. That may seem 'quaint and obsolete' in these times.

[cliffordu]

35. Depends on the target.

BIn Laden had extensive combat experience against the soviets.

He could kill as easily and professionally as anyone in the room.

If I am going in against someone like that he'll be looking to die unless he is prone and naked.

[bluestateguy]

5. He is a legitimate military target

Unless he surrenders, he is fair game.

[jp11]

7. I agree with the title but just because you send an armed team to infiltrate someone's

home/compound etc doesn't mean it isn't assassination to kill them, ie their death was the point/plan. Capture could have taken other forms but we don't know what options were presented and as of yet I don't think we have the information to say for sure the goal was to kill him.

Initially I heard the plan was to kill him, later I heard no they wanted to capture him so I don't know what the truth is. I'm not of the opinion it was necessarily assassination in the usual sense people mean it but from a technical POV it seems to fit.

[gratuitous]

9. All right! An eyewitness account

What kind of gun was bin Laden using? Single shot or fully automatic? It seems strange to me that in a "firefight" every last one of the bad guys was killed, but none of the good guys sustained so much as a hangnail. I mean, if this were a Hollywood script, you'd walk out, but the military's thrilling account can't be wrong, and now we have an eyewitness. More details, please!

[leftstreet]

11. I thought he used a ping pong paddle

Guess my source was wrong

What kind of gun was it?

[joe_sixpack]

12. I feel pretty confindent there was no plan to take him alive.

which was the right decision in my view. The difficulties associated with that would have been enormous. I understand though, why they might have to claim that they would have captured him if possible, but no way that was ever going to happen.

[Bold Lib]

13. That is true. BUT, if you initially started out going to that persons home with

the intent of killing them and they shoot at you first, it is still assassination - they just got the first shot off.

[Harmony Blue]

14. If it is true that he used his wife as a shield

then it is possible that he had a gun.

[Bold Lib]

15. I do not doubt that he had a gun at all.

I'm just saying that if he got the shot off first it is mute if the orders were to shoot on sight.

[Dappleganger]

17. They should have asked more nicely...

and used their inside voices.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Contrary1]

25. Or hired this guy to do the job:

"Candygram."

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mz Pip]

21. If I'm on the worlds most wanted list

in a heavily fortified compound issuing death threats...

Oh never mind.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elocs]

23. What you really need to do is actually read what I wrote & try hard to understand it.

"If you kill someone who is pointing a gun or shooting at you it is NOT execution or assassination."

If a cop tells you to "freeze" and you reach for a gun and you are shot and killed, it is not execution or assassination. It is foolish to believe otherwise.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fool Count]

26. Except that the cop would have been well within his rights

in doing that. US Navy SEALS in Pakistan? Highly doubtful.

[Dorian Gray]

27. Not if I was responsible for thousands of deaths

and was being pursued for almost ten years by the military.

[Abq_Sarah]

29. Not if you're a cop.

[Rage for Order]

20. I'm glad they killed him instead of capturing him

Trying to give OBL a trial somewhere would have made the circus surrounding KSM's proposed trial in Manhattan seem tame by comparison. Better to take care of these issues in the field rather than taking these shitbags into custody and attempting to bring them to court.

[WinkyDink]

28. Come on; this was a kill expedition!

[backscatter712]

36. You say that like it's a bad thing...

[bighart]

31. Any significance to the phrasing of the following from President Obama's adress last night:

Note the last sentence

"Today, at my direction, the United States launched a targeted operation against that compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan. A small team of Americans carried out the operation with extraordinary courage and capability. No Americans were harmed. They took care to avoid civilian casualties.
After a firefight, they killed Osama bin Laden and took custody of his body."

[backscatter712]

32. What were the SEALs supposed to do? Use harsh language?

Their job was to get Osama bin Laden, dead or alive, and they fulfilled their mission. OBL decided to go down fighting, so the SEALs obliged him.

[rhett o rick]

33. I am glad bin Ladin is dead. However, your rationalization is wrong.

We invaded his home and killed him. That is either execution or assassination. Please dont try to make yourself feel better by your rationalization.

[backscatter712]

34. How about we call it "killing an enemy on the battlefield."

After all, we're at war, are we not?

[rhett o rick]

37. What have you got against assassination? Do you feel better about yourself if you think

your government didnt lower themselves to assassinating? We assassinated him and he deserved it, why is that so hard to admit?

And what the hell do you mean, we are at war? Are you talking about the war on drugs? What the hell is your definition of war? George Bush wanted the American people to think that we were at war with terrorists. How absurd. When did it start? Or has it been going on forever?

I guess rationalization is the key to some peoples happiness.

[backscatter712]

38. Good point. Out of all the people in the world, OBL was the one that most deserved to be whacked. nt

[LostinNY]

42. You are right

Assassination is assassination. I'm glad he's dead, but when you execute or assassinate others, how can you condemn it when others wish to do the same?

[NOLALady]

40. Aren't they backing away from

the claim that OBL was armed?

And the woman was caught in a crossfire.

[Charlie Chipps]

41. Some of it may be true but alot seems to be off the cuff propaganda

One big one is the burial at sea? So his grave wont become a shrine. What? With that belef wouldnt his grave be a terrorist magnet of sorts and the u.s. could just round up all of the terrorists as the visited it?
Is Saddam Hussein's grave a shrine? He had way more followers and foreign leaders that backed him than Bin Laden could ever dream of.
Something isnt right about this thing. But it really doesnt matter as the u.s. has the biggest guns so that makes them right!!!!