Valerie Lucznikowska says Bin Laden should have been brought in alive

[malaise]

and put him on trial. Says she doesn't support this kill for kill - it's we kill, they kill and its all murder. Her nephew was killed on 9/11.

She thanked the President for the raid but thought that he should have been brought in alive so 'our' laws and the laws that keep human beings together practiced.
She also spoke to the people of Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan who have been used as collateral damage

What a sober lady. Bravo Valerie

sp., gr.

[aquart]

1. That's nice.

She wanted him brought in alive and given, I assume, a life sentence in a US prison to serve as a magnet for attacks for the next twenty years?

Well, isn't she sweet and thoughtful of others.

Where was this DITZ planning to have this trial? Manhattan? Because that would be a fair and impartial jury.

Spare me the boiler plate humanity.

[browntyphoon]

2. fuck no, we're broke.

Housing OBL would be a massively expensive proposition for an expected outcome.


We should house our vets before considering housing that animal.

Good kill SEALs

[aquart]

You know what? I'd be happy to put the Guantanamo guys on trial here.

I think quite a few of them, maybe most, had no business being in that prison and I wouldn't mind being a juror that brought in that verdict.

But a show trial for bin Laden where we pretend to exhibit justice? That was Stalin's thing, not ours.

[browntyphoon]

19. I'll agree with you on this.

Some of those guys had nothing to do with anything but were in the wrong place at the wrong time wearing the wrong watch.



A trial for Bin Laden and the subsequent housing/ security would just be silly.


The SEALs should a medal from the taxpayers for saving us billions.

[TornadoTN]

5. I'm usually quite the humanitarian, but in this case this was the right choice

Killing him, burying him at sea, and sparing the drama that would have come with either his capture or from his body being displayed is the right move.

Alive, he's as you say a magnet for jihad and other crazies. The court system and it's verdict would never be accepted and likely to cause more outrage. Displaying his body is another event that could be used to anchor further attacks, uprisings, etc.

But by doing it this way, some will be left to wonder and you'll never have that one key event that people can rally behind. The only people that know for sure have spoken, so it's either take that or leave it.

[aquart]

11. Ebert gave my favorite response. He quoted Whitman.

ebertchicago

I am against the Death Penalty. I rejoice that Bin Laden was killed. "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself." (Whitman)

[Dappleganger]

12. Yes he did, those are precisely my thoughts.

Humans are beings of contradiction.

[aquart]

18. Except I can't be against the death penalty while Cheney lives.

And Bush. Yoo. Rove. Bernanke.

We all have our dreams.

[calimary]

45. Hear hear!

And don't forget the wolfowitzes of the world. david addington, libby, abrams, rummy, the whole lot of them. War criminals ALL.

[tallahasseedem]

35. +1

It's getting ridiculous.

[Hugabear]

76. So she's a "ditz" simply for expressing an opinion that differs from yours?

We've captured and put on trial many notorious people throughout our history. Hell, we even put the Nazis on trial, at least those who didn't kill themselves first. We would have put Adolf Hitler himself on trial if we had captured him alive.

Yet somehow this 9/11 survivor is a "ditz" because she actually preferred to follow our own set of laws?

[aquart]

94. One, I respect many people whose opinions differ from mine.

She isn't one of them. She hasn't considered a single consequence of her nicey-nicey sentiments.

Two. We put the Nazis on trial after we had completely subjugated their nation. They were crushed. We could have lined every one of them up and shot them and there was nothing they could do. So we chose to demonstrate the wonders of a free democracy and put them on trial. Since many people hadn't seen the thoughtfully compiled German video and photographic evidence, the trial was very helpful in getting the information out there with a fancy-dancy seal of approval from the court. Hard to deny legal evidence.

THAT IS NOT THE CASE HERE. The Saudis are not in the least subjugated. And they have the right to demand their citizen be returned for trial. Wanna tell the oil boys no? Wanna guess how much fun they would have if they didn't ask for him back? Bet they are real glad we killed him.

What other foreign nationals have we put on trial?

[Hugabear]

96. And you know this how?

You say that "she hasn't considered a single consequence of her nicey-nicey sentiments". Really? How do you know this? Have you personally spoken to her? Do you know her? If not, then you're simply talking out of your ass, making shit up, painting with a very broad brush.

How do you KNOW what the consequences would have been if we had put Bin Laden on trial and either imprisoned him for life or executed him within our legal framework? That we would have created a martyr? That extremists around the world would want to avenge him? Isn't that exactly what we're facing now? How can you or anyone PROVE that the results would have been any different? You do know that some extremists are already calling the place where we dumped his body "Martyr's Sea" don't you? You do realize that people have warned that we could face reprisal attacks over his death, right?

[Withywindle]

90. His death was much kinder than that of his victims.

Shot in the head? well, if my choices are that versus (a) being burned alive, (b) jumping or falling from 100 stories up, (c) being trapped on an airplane that I KNOW is going down, for all too many agonizingly conscious minutes, (d) being blown apart and lying there bleeding out while looking at one of my legs that's suddenly WAY OVER THERE far away from me...

Yeah, I'd take it. Who wouldn't?


OBL's death was quick and maybe extra-legal, but it wasn't cruel. Not in the way that the deaths of innocent terrorism victims are cruel.

[cherokeeprogressive]

3. Yeah well it's all water under the bridge now, isn't it? Let them wail and gnash their teeth all

they want.

I'm glad the fucker is food for crabs. Being nasty scavengers that eat carrion, I think it's a fitting end for him.

And, I would add that whoever might have held him in custody if he was taken alive would have put their citizens at great risk around the world just for the sake of appearances. Not a good call.

[Marblehead]

4. perhaps

if there was a trial, we could have indicted some people from the last admin.:shrug:

[Solomon]

16. Do you realize what that would do to this Country?

I mean really. Forget about anything else being done, just spend years and years trying to prosecute and not being able to prove anything because of national security reasons. Meanwhile, everybody hating on each other. It's simply not feasible.

[Marblehead]

41. so be it

[Zhade]

49. The rule of law isn't always easy. Sorry you were led to believe otherwise.

You were done a disservice.

[Name removed]

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[Renew Deal]

6. Can you imagine that circus?

If they could have gotten him alive, fine. But it would have been crazy.

[dkf]

7. I wonder if she would have volunteered her nephew to risk his life in an even more dangerous mission

To do so.

Funny how we want our guys to take all the risk for our sensibilities.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. Bravo for her. K&R

[uppityperson]

9. We each have at least 1 opinion on the matter. I hope she finds peace and all others do also

[EFerrari]

10. I've been trying to figure out how old you have to be to understand

how bin Laden is not the world's first very dangerous criminal and that there was a time and a tradition before the Patriot Act and the War on Terra that worked pretty well.

[aquart]

20. Did it?

What trials are you thinking of? Sacco and Vanzetti? The Scottsboro boys? When did we ever prosecute a man who killed three thousand people? Nuremberg? If you want to bring that up, remember that Nuremberg happened when Germany was utterly and completely crushed and they could do NOTHING no matter what we chose to do.

So what trials were you thinking of?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. Timothy McVeigh? Charlie Manson? John Wayne Gacy?

To name a few mass murderers who went to trial and got the death sentence.

[malaise]

24. Add Hitler's posse to the list n/t

[JVS]

25. And Jefferson Davis, Tojo, Gen. Yamashita

[aquart]

31. Again. Trials that occurred when the opposition was utterly crushed.

When there wasn't a possibility of resistance or retaliation. Although Lincoln did suffer because of lingering resentment.

[erikdane]

36. So we should only have trials

where the supporters of the people on trial have no way of hitting back or getting upset. I have to admit there are some interesting legal principles being developed in the wake of this affair.

[coalition_unwilling]

77. Man, we need a sardonic icon to complement the sarcasm icon. I

liked your phrase "interesting legal principles" :) Franz Kafka is surely spinning in his grave right about now.

[aquart]

29. Not one a foreign national. Not one.

US public opinion was entirely on the side of frying them with eggs and bacon while nobody outside our country cared because those bastards were all ours.

As you may have noticed, some people outside this country have expressed less happy opinions of bin Laden's death. And we have absolutely no control over anything they might choose to do. Hence the heightened security.

And Pakistan might have chosen not to extradite. And demanded him back.

Or the Saudis might have requested, as longtime friends and allies, that they try their errant son.

So what other comparable trials do you have in mind?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. What evidence do you have that any of the outcomes you project would happen.,

Do you think that people outside this country would control a trial in this country or the ICC?

If Pakistan chose not to extradite? And, demanded him back? How does that work?

Do you really think that if the Saudis had requested him back, we would have honored the request and sent him back?

I find the trial I mentioned comparable. They were mass murderers, tried, convicted, sentenced to death, and executed under the rule of law. Care to note the international laws that permit entering another sovereign nation to kill criminals?

[aquart]

92. Answering a question with a question?

What trials have we conducted of MASS murderers in which the defendant was a foreign national whose nation was unsubjugated by us? The original statement was that we had done it plenty of times before. WHEN?

Your answer was in no way comparable. Just the fact that you are ranting about sovereign nations should tell you immediately how much trouble there would be with a trial. SOVEREIGN NATIONS DEMAND THE RIGHT TO TRY THEIR OWN CITIZENS. That's part of the whole "sovereign" thing. If we did not honor that demand, would the macho Saudis or Pakistanis take it well, do you think? But I see you don't care how they would take it.

Once again, American arrogance fails to conceive of the possibility of an international impediment, this time to an American show trial to soothe our delicate consciences.

[EFerrari]

39. What utter rubbish. n/t

[kick-ass-bob]

13. Maybe she should have been point with the SEALs

Then she could have made a citizens arrest.

[Zorra]

14. Do you really think OBL would have been taken alive?

Really, seriously. Think about it. There's just no way.

After what he did, can you imagine what it would be like in US custody?

Defiled, degraded, a public spectacle...and then, execution.

He made his choice.

Suicide by Navy Seal.

[aquart]

23. I don't need to rationalize it. I'm fine with him dead.

If they waited a while and applied electrodes to his testicles first, well, that would have made my mom happy (because Mom wasn't thrilled knowing I live in lower Manhattan and that she couldn't get to me. She wasn't happy not being able to reach me or her brother who worked on Chambers Street. And she, like me, doesn't forgive him for the jumpers) but I'm fine with dead. Mom thinks it was waaay too quick.

[erikdane]

34. So torture is just fine with you

Just to make sure, you have no problem with using torture and unusual and cruel punishment?

[EFerrari]

52. Let's just despense with due process when we know the likely outcome.

It works for Hamas.

[Swede]

15. What does Valerie Bertinelli say?

:shrug:

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. ROFL

Best response of the thread!

:thumbsup:

:rofl:

[cliffordu]

17. The guy at the meat counter in Safeway says we should have

hurt his feelings with filthy limericks.

[damntexdem]

26. Yeah, and what a circus that would have been.

Ideally, he should have been tried at the ICC -- but the debate over that would also have been a circus.

[Name removed]

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[Codeine]

27. I know this one dude who met this lady who said

she knew a fellow who said he thought Osama was still alive. So there!

[TwilightGardener]

28. I'm going to say this--many thousands of troops/civilians have died in trying

to bring the 9/11 terrorists to justice and stop further attacks. Did she want to risk the lives of even more (our SEALs in particular) to have this all done just to her liking? Sheesh.

[EFerrari]

46. If we're not fighting for our way of life, what are we fighting for?

Sheesh.

[Aerows]

30. I have no idea who she is

but she does have a point.

[erikdane]

33. I am really surprised

And a bit worried about the total abandonment of the rule of law here. All indications are that OBL was behind the 9/11 attacks, but that is all based upon information provided by the government, rumors, some grainy videos etc. I hope that no matter how dangerous an individual is perceived to be, the fundamental right to a fair trial is still a principle believed in by many people here on DU. However, it seems that way too many are happy with what appears to be a summary execution of a guy who apparently could have been taken alive. And the excuse that it would have been a circus, expensive etc. just shows that justice is only a term used when its convenient.

Like someone said, the top Nazis were all put on trial and that seemed to work well. Now we are apparently all OK with the US government having carte blanc to assassinate and kill whom ever they tell us are a dangerous individual without a trial anywhere on earth.

[Swede]

37. But during WWII,not after,they would have capped Hitler.

:shrug:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. The end justifies the means has become popular here.

Lynch mob mentality.

[JVS]

78. It's not even that.

It's the agent justifies the action.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. "based upon information provided by the government, rumors, some grainy videos etc"

Yeah, that. And the fact that he said he did it.

[Ikonoklast]

60. Not only that, but said he was planning on doing even worse.

Besides that, he was a swell guy.

OBL was a self-confessed mass murderer who committed an act of war against this nation, and as an enemy combatant was a fair target for a bullet.

No different than any other soldier on a battlefield, you don't try to capture an enemy soldier and bring him to trial, your job is to kill him.

[EFerrari]

58. The mood of the country this week is the same as the week after 9/11.

It doesn't matter to people how badly we trash our way of life as long as they get some relief from their own impotence. And we all know how well that worked out for us.

[Warren DeMontague]

62. Were you at any of those Iraq War protests at the Civic Center in early 2003? I was.

I clearly remember the opinion being expressed; "Iraq didn't attack us, Osama did. Why aren't we focusing on getting HIM?"


Well, that's what this president did. And he succeeded. Finally.

[EFerrari]

64. Fucking him was never the question. Not fucking ourselves

in the process has been.

[Warren DeMontague]

66. So what, precisely, is it you're complaining about? That we killed OBL? Or something else?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

69. How will you feel when the next Republican president claims the right

to assassinate anyone he wants to anywhere in the world?

If you think this is about bin Laden and not about us and our well being, you're not doing it right.

[Warren DeMontague]

70. You HONESTLY don't think we had the "right" to kill Bin Laden?

Someone deliberately causes the death of 3,000 innocent Americans, declares war on us, attacks us with airplanes loaded with our own citizens and a messload of jet fuel--- yes I do believe that ANY president- (D) or (R) or whatever- can claim the right to kill them as an enemy combatant.

[EFerrari]

71. You really do not understand that this isn't about bin Laden.

And you obviously don't care about the blow back.

I hope you can live with that.

[Warren DeMontague]

74. Yeah, it IS about Bin Laden.

And either we didn't get him and he continued to run around free, or we did, and we get the "blow back".

What should we have done? Specifically. I'd like to hear your take.

[coalition_unwilling]

79. Are you really that surprised? I am apalled and disheartened but,

upon reflection, not that surprised.

Two things I have noticed to add to your catalog:

those who insinuate that because Obama ordered it, we should therefore suspend disbelief. There's a label for this type of fallacy but I can't remember right now what it is

and

those who intimate that, because a trial would have been expensive and we can't afford it, we just skip the trial part. One DUer went on to say that the SEALs should get medals for 'saving us billions" (no mention of what happened to our souls in the process, tellingly:)

Thanks for paying attention. I hope to read more of your work soon.

[Name removed]

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[leftynyc]

38. Who is she?

And other than just being another human, why should her opinion matter at all?

[Name removed]

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[leftynyc]

95. Do you like putting words

in my mouth? Does it taste good?

[Johonny]

42. guess she should get her fishing pole out then

[LostInAnomie]

68. haha

[Name removed]

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[Puregonzo1188]

47. I gave this a rec and its still at zero. Unrecing a 9/11 victims' family member.

Way to keep it classy DU.

[browntyphoon]

51. I feel bad for he loss but that does not make her an expert more so than me.

[Warren DeMontague]

53. So families of 9-11 victims have final moral authority on whether this was okay or not?

Perhaps we should poll them, then, and find out if a majority cheered when they heard he was dead.



I'm betting, they did.

[Name removed]

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[Warren DeMontague]

88. Go ahead and tear your hair out, then.

Or re-read what I wrote and see if you can manage to figure it out this time.

Or don't, I don't really give a shit.

[Iggo]

57. Actually, I unrec'd a thread about someone's decidedly un-expert opinion.

The responses are more of the same goddam fight that's been going nowhere since Sunday.

I just don't think this is one of the Greatest topics on the website today.

That's how that works.

[mmonk]

65. I did too.

I share her love for civilization. Bin Laden didn't take our souls with him.

[Union Scribe]

86. Just add it to the "how dare you" list

How dare we feel happy bin Laden is dead.
How dare we not care he wasn't taken alive.
How dare we not be offended at the use of Geronimo.
Etc. etc. etc.

[JI7]

87. so if a 9/11 Family member wanted us to go into Iran and anywhere else

to get rid of terrorists we should rec it up ?

[Bragi]

48. I agree with her /nt

[emilyg]

50. Yes.

[Iggo]

54. Oh well, if Valerie says so...

[AlabamaLibrul]

55. Yeah well clearly she doesn't know anything

fucking hand-wringing OBL sympathizers

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. Probly one of them there bleedin' heart libruls.

Don't even 'preciate how much fun killin' is.

[Warren DeMontague]

67. If it were shown that the majority of 9-11 victims' families are glad that Osama is dead

would that change your opinion of the operation?


And if not, why does her opinion matter so much more?

[AlabamaLibrul]

73. To answer your question - no.

And it is not a comment on what weight her opinion has with me, so much as the constant attacking from hawks about how anyone who didn't throw an impromptu party over OBL's death is a terrorist sympathizer that hates America. It's very Bushian and makes one feel "underground" all over again.

[Warren DeMontague]

75. Really? Because I'd like to see the threads attacking "anyone who didn't throw an impromptu party".

Seriously. Where are the dreaded party-demanding threads?

Because I haven't seen that. What I *HAVE* seen is a lot of finger-wagging and moralizing from people who have decided they're morally superior because they're criticizing this long-overdue action, while the rest of us aren't.

[Name removed]

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[Warren DeMontague]

91. Thanks for your input.

[JI7]

89. There are no constant attacks from "hawks" over anyone not throwing a party

but there do seem to be people who are offended by anyone who is ok with OBL being killed. and then they claim they are being persecuted for not celebrating.

[AlabamaLibrul]

98. You haven't been looking nt

[CBGLuthier]

56. Who?

Well that's one against and uhh about 300 million for. TS lady.

[Amaya]

61. we don´t do things like that

we needed our pound of flesh .... it´s the american way :toast: :patriot:

[mmonk]

63. It's refreshing the relative of a 9/11 victim still believes in legal or judicial justice

and the rule of law. She should serve as an example to Americans in the future and present.

[Modern_Matthew]

72. Everyone is entitled to their opinion...but they're all moot at this point. nt

[Tx4obama]

93. And if Bin Laden had had a suicide bomber vest on under his robes and ....

blew himself up, along with a few of our Seals - then everyone would have been bitching that the Seals should have shot on sight.

Can't please everyone.

Thank goodness Our Seals were not hurt and they all came home safely.

[mfcorey1]

97. Every body has a Monday morning quarterback analysis. Obama did what was necessary and it is time

to move on. Osama sympathizers need to do the same.