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[demosincebirth]

This message was self-deleted and locked by demosincebirth.

[RandySF]

1. Hoooray!!

It gets so nasty there by the end of the day.

[flvegan]

2. Good.

Nice job, activists.

[BillyJack]

7. "activists" aren't always correct. Not everyone is vegetarian/vegan, as you well know...

....this guy is out of business after 20+++ years b/c why????

No one, apparently, has given him a good or 'any' answer?

Don't pick on the little guy with your vegetarian/vegan theology.....go after the TYSON's and the PERDUE's!!! (oh, they're too BIG for you to pick a fight with???? Then target the "little guy" and feel like you've 'won something', when you've won nothing AT ALL, except putting another independent business person in the trash heap).

[Quantess]

11. Or KFC/Taco Bell's "Yum! Brands"

City slickers get hurt feelings when they look into the eyes of an animal they know is going to be killed and eaten soon. Don't corrupt their bleeding hearts as they go on their way to buy a chicken stir fry or burrito de pollo. They'd rather just eat the ones they never met.

[flvegan]

12. You must have glossed over the part of the story

where it seemed pretty clear that he wasn't treating the birds well. Mistreat animals, then I don't care, go fuck yourself and your 20 years.

But hey, thanks for jumping to the obvious kneejerk/defensive, albeit idiotic conclusion.

[Pigheaded]

14. I can't find it

Please quote it for me

Pigheaded

[BillyJack]

15. Please cite where in the article he wasn't treating the birds well.

It's not there.

[FLPanhandle]

18. *crickets*

You won't get an answer because it's not there.

[flvegan]

27. Look down.

Try to comprehend.

[flvegan]

26. Okay

"The city's Animal Care and Control agency originally had some concerns about treatment of chickens at the market, but the district attorney said live poultry is exempt from California's animal cruelty laws"

Permit requirements arent' going to take animal welfare into consideration. There were cleanliness problems in the past. Oh, and if you look at the fucking picture that's with the article, I'm thinking and carrying live chickens crammed in brown paper bags that are then crammed into plastic ones...well, if they were puppies you'd probably shit yourself with rage.

[FLPanhandle]

"problems in the past"

What's the problem cited right now that's against the law?

[flvegan]

33. Cheeky.

"against the law"

Again, if you read the article (or knew the first thing about the treatment of animals used for things) chickens aren't covered by any laws to protect them (such as the Animal Welfare Act and humane slaughter laws). Well...unless you want to fight them, that's covered. That's so they can basically be treated any way people fucking care so that your eggs can be 3 cents cheaper.

[FLPanhandle]

39. So a guy legally selling non-factory farmed chickens is shut down?

Not only that, but a guy that made sure he met all SF requirements on cleanliness and fixed any problems from the past. A person whom they said is perfectly legal but is forced out of business.

I guess my assumption of the motives of militant vegetarians/vegan is correct. They don't really care about factory farms or laws. All they care about is forcing people to change their diet. Factory farming is just a smoke screen.

[flvegan]

42. How do you know

that he's not keeping his chickens at his "farm" or whatever aren't being kept in factory-farm like conditions? Again, "legally" can suck it when it comes to animals that have no protections, where damn near anything is "legal" in regards to their treatment. I applaud using any loophole to put a business that mistreats the animals in their care into critical condition. Love it.

Your assumptions are just that. Yours.

[Luminous Animal]

45. No, he is selling factory farmed chicken..

http://www.sfbg.com/2011/02/15/playing-chicken

From the comments.

"We actually do have a lot of information on Raymond Young's "farms!" The 3 huge enclosed-shed factory-farms listed on Raymond Young's health permit are not owned by him. The address in Manteca matches to Gemperle Industries, one of California's largest egg producers (live markets are a good way for them to dispose of otherwise "worthless" spent hens). An undercover investigation of one of their facilities http://www.mercyforanimals.org/caeggs/ revealed filth and cruelty so horrific, Trader Joe's fired them as supplier of their house brand eggs."

[dana_b]

86. good catch

I am very glad they shut this down. Such a lack of humaneness for any animal (why is poultry excluded??) makes me ill.

[flvegan]

53. .

Post deleted.

[FLPanhandle]

55. No problem

I can admit when I'm wrong. I don't approve of factory farming. That information wasn't in the original article.

In my best Glida Radner voice..."Nevermind".

[flvegan]

57. Fair enough.

Loved Gilda Radner, too.

[Luminous Animal]

58. Cool!

[RebelOne]

32. Kudos, Flvegan. I couldn't have said it better.

I am a vegetarian, not a vegan, but you have expressed my thoughts exactly.

[Luminous Animal]

44. Hey, flvegan... there is some good info in this article and great info in the comments.

http://www.sfbg.com/2011/02/15/playing-chicken

[flvegan]

46. The follow up is also good.

http://www.sfbg.com/politics/2011/05/03/hoc-farmers-market-bans-live-chicken-sales

I hope some folks in this thread read your posted article as well as this one. Might prove a bit enlightening.

[Luminous Animal]

49. " Young had received hundreds of citations from ACC and warnings from the DPH"

Yep. I do hope they read both!

[flvegan]

52. Have you noticed how quiet this thread got?

Once you started posting the spoilers? Wonder why.

[Luminous Animal]

54. : )

It baffles me as to why people won't take a moment to research an issue before hitting themselves in the chin with their knee.

[flvegan]

56. Because "militant vegan" is just fun to type.

And it's shorter than WHAAARRRRRRGARRRRRBL!!!

[cottonseed]

82. These citations were given primarily as a response to the picketer.

The city or any right thinking person never had a problem with the issue until the picketing started.

[Luminous Animal]

92. The citations response to pictorial evidence submitted to ACC and DPH.

Have you ever walked by his stall. His stall is the reason why I will not shop at that Farmers Market even though I would prefer that one to the chichi one at the Ferry Building. It stinks to high heaven and there is bird crap everywhere. Animal Care & Control and the Department of Public Health will respond to complaints and evidence; and if the evidence is confirmed, they will issue a citation or warning. Neither institution will issue a citation based on a complaint alone.

[cottonseed]

97. The chicken shit bothers you more than the human shit, urine, puke, and blood?

Give me a break. The whole area down there is a dump. You don't shop there because you don't like the idea of selling live chickens.

[snooper2]

85. You must have glossed over this part of the story

"The lawsuit is not about how they treat the chickens," Felsinger said. "It's about how they've treated us."

Yeah punk, you come harrassing and protesting my business on a daily basis right in front of me and after a while I might slap you in the face as well.

[flvegan]

100. No I didn't.

Like I said previously, whatever loophole they need to shut them down. No lawsuit over the chickens would have gone anywhere. Pays to be smart.

Nice to know that you're a violent person looking to silence free speech. Something to keep in mind.

[Ignis]

50. Kindly explain what "vegetarian/vegan theology" is.

:shrug:

[JanMichael]

91. He can't

Everytime he sees a vegetarian post, he jumps all over the thread with obnoxious garbage. I think he started a thread today as flame bait, but it was so stupid, no one responded, thank god.

[cottonseed]

81. Activists are completely worthless when it comes to accomplishing real goals.

Hence, they take down a small independent operation, pat themselves on the back, and go on with their lives cherishing their one "accomplishment". Vegan animal rights activists. Tyson's greatest ally.

[Angry Dragon]

10. ..........

:thumbsdown:

[flvegan]

13. Mmm

the sleep I'll lose over that response.

[Renew Deal]

21. Yes, good. Now the restaurants can ship in dead birds from Tyson, Perdue, and others from all over

the country. Real "good." :eyes:

[flvegan]

29. Let me know when that happens.

Since obviously you know it will.

[Renew Deal]

30. What do you think will happen?

Will they just stop serving chicken?

[flvegan]

34. Considering

that one of the folks they talked to said they'd have to drive to Chinatown to buy now...wait, does Chinatown have a Tyson's outlet? These are relatively small consumers, not McDonalds.

[Renew Deal]

37. Sysco

They would get it with the rest of their food delivery.

[flvegan]

38. Do they deliver live chickens?

You might be right. I really don't know.

[Renew Deal]

41. I've never seen it.

But that's hardly the point. They don't source locally.

[flvegan]

43. The point

is the purchase and sale of live chickens. I don't believe any of the companies you mentioned do that, but again I'm not positive. Maybe there is a "Tyson's Live Chicken Outlet" in Chinatown. I just really doubt it.

[snooper2]

77. Fucking losers is what they are

[BadGimp]

3. I'm sorry but this is fucking stoopid

Chickens die in this country by the hundreds of thousands a day if not more.

If people prefer to kill their own chickens then so be it, as long as they are within local laws.

These aren't pets people. They're FOOD.

[demosincebirth]

17. I guess the activist want the chickens put to sleep before they chop their heads off. Also,

the poor frogs that they kill, along with lil' turtles. Some,here, are just as ridiculous as members of PETA. Like I always said, there is nothing better than fresh chicken

[Renew Deal]

24. Not just that. The restaurants were "supporting local farmers" which we preach.

But I guess we don't mean it. Now he can get birds from outside of California.

[Luminous Animal]

47. He's not a small local farmer. He sells spent birds from a factory egg farm.

From the comments of this article: http://www.sfbg.com/2011/02/15/playing-chicken

"We actually do have a lot of information on Raymond Young's "farms!" The 3 huge enclosed-shed factory-farms listed on Raymond Young's health permit are not owned by him. The address in Manteca matches to Gemperle Industries, one of California's largest egg producers (live markets are a good way for them to dispose of otherwise "worthless" spent hens). An undercover investigation of one of their facilities http://www.mercyforanimals.org/caeggs/ revealed filth and cruelty so horrific, Trader Joe's fired them as supplier of their house brand eggs."

[JanMichael]

94. Please post that in capital letters

no one here is going to read it otherwise.

[cottonseed]

98. why aren't the veggies picketing the factory farm?

Is that too difficult politically. Just curious why shutting down a small biz guy trying to make a living the only route.

[Quantess]

4. That is really stupid.

Those chickens are better off than the ones at the Factory Farms.

[browntyphoon]

5. Some cultures are still very attached to their food.

And SF is stomping on culture.

[Luminous Animal]

9. I think the problem is the Farmer's Market organization cannot afford the lawsuit.

Neither can the chicken farmer.

[kestrel91316]

6. Shame on SF. This is VERY anti-food self-sufficiency and locavorism.

CHICKENS ARE FOOD. Fresher is better.

[Sonoman]

16. Agreed.

He should move to Sonoma.

Sonoman

[FLPanhandle]

19. I guess SF prefers factory farms for their chicken meat.

[Luminous Animal]

48. Not local and he is a factory farm vendor.

http://www.sfbg.com/2011/02/15/playing-chicken

Read the comments.

[kestrel91316]

67. Then it's a case of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Ban ALL live poultry sales because SOME live poultry aren't raised the way some folks would like.

Meddlesome PETA crap, AFAIAC.

[Luminous Animal]

72. No such ban citywide. But thanks for trying.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

20. Why did this come up Ray? Because San Francisco wants to run your life.

This is idiotic. People talk about eating locally and supporting local farmers. This guy is a local farmer providing live chickens to the restaurants of San Francisco. Some clueless "activists" will now force the restaurants to ship in dead birds from Tyson, Perdue, and others from all over the country. They defeat the purpose. Morons.

[provis99]

22. oh great. Fascist vegan morons.

Do what we say or we'll ruin your livelihood!

[former9thward]

23. This was a victory for coporations brought to them by idiots.

[Renew Deal]

25. It wouldn't surprise me if the "activists" are corporate plants.

But I doubt the megafarms need the business that bad.

[TransitJohn]

31. You know it.

Aren't we on the left supposed to support Community based and small scale farming? Idiots.

[Luminous Animal]

51. You spout off not even knowing who this guy is. He's received 100s of citations..

He's not a local small scale farmer but accesses his chickens from a factory egg farmer.

http://www.sfbg.com/politics/2011/05/03/hoc-farmers-market-bans-live-chicken-sales
http://www.sfbg.com/2011/02/15/playing-chicken

[cottonseed]

83. With SF's "activists", it's the friendliest city for factory farms outside Springdale, Arkansas

[Luminous Animal]

90. The chickens he sells are factory farmed.

[cottonseed]

96. Great. Then they should have picketed the factory farm.

I guess that would be too inconvenient.

[Odin2005]

28. Proof that the militant vegans are morons.

[RebelOne]

35. Personally, you must be a moron, and I am not

a militant vegan, but I am a militant vegetarian.

[Liquorice]

36. Militant meat-eaters are the biggest morons of all. nt

[handmade34]

59. while I hesitate to call anyone names...

I 2nd what you said

[Texasgal]

40. I'm having a hard time trying to figure

out why so many in this thread thinks it's OKAY that these chickens were treated inhumanely?

Okay, so yeah... he was a little guy in a big business, but damn... why would any of you agree with animal cruelty?

[handmade34]

60. see response #36

[former9thward]

61. Show in the OP where there was any "animal cruelty"

Try some facts instead of your distorted imagination.

[Luminous Animal]

63. Here:

http://www.sfbg.com/politics/2011/05/03/hoc-farmers-market-bans-live-chicken-sales
http://www.sfbg.com/2011/02/15/playing-chicken

[former9thward]

70. What BS

This quote from the link says it all:

"These people just don't seem to like other people's culture of selling live chicken," Young said. ""I think that what I do is right. I abide by all the health codes and animal care codes. I try to do everything I can to satisfy everyone. These protesters think they can override the law because they don't like what they see."

That fits you like a glove.

[Luminous Animal]

73. I can say I am Wonderwoman. It doesn't make it so. 100s of citations from Animal Care and Control.

Hundreds.

http://www.sfbg.com/politics/2011/05/03/hoc-farmers-market-bans-live-chicken-sales

And warnings from the Department of Health.

Apparently, he DOES NOT abide by all the health codes and animal care codes.


I can say I am Wonderwoman. It doesn't make it so.

[former9thward]

75. All dismissed. Or did you not bother to read that part.

Apparently he DOES abide by all the health codes and animal care codes.

[Luminous Animal]

89. but they were essentially void due to an exemption in California law pertaining to poultry.

Just because the poultry industry lobby has managed to keep its industry filthy doesn't make the filth disappear.

[former9thward]

93. That exemption is everywhere.

Just admit it. You don't want people to eat fish, beef, pigs or poultry. Because it would be impossible to eat those animals on a large scale if the pure standards you want to impose on the rest of us were in effect. Animals that are raised or caught for food do not have the same living standards as pets. Society, even though you hate it, has rejected that. Just admit your agenda.

[Luminous Animal]

95. The problem is, state law supercedes stricter city ordinance. This will be rectified in future.

And you are funny. I eat chicken and fish. (Though, not much chicken these days.) But this vendor is really running a gag inducing stinky operation selling factory farmed chicken which are left with no water in the hot sun.

[former9thward]

101. Oh but you don't mind a fish gasping to death in the air

with a hook ripped through its mouth. Such a pleasant way to die. As long as it can serve you. Hypocrisy knows no bounds.

[cottonseed]

84. Looks like a White Vegan's Burden to me.

I mean, what do ethnic Chinese people know anyways.

[BillyJack]

62. THAT'S the THING. WE ALL think that the chickens are being treated inhumanely.

Agreed?

But it's soooo much easier to attack this "little guy" who is just picking up the scraps from Tyson, Perdue, et al.....than to ACTUALLY GO AFTER THE ABUSES OF TYSON & PERDUE, et al.

[flvegan]

64. Wow. That tune changed.

Yeah, acting locally is for suckers, huh.

[BillyJack]

65. Yep flvegan.....it's just "sharpening the sword" eom

on edit: don't take that as "offense". There are much, much bigger fish to fry....we're just sharpening the sword with each other - practicing with each other - before we, or others confront the big inflated enemies within.....and they are many and mostly misguided (which adds to the confusion).

[flvegan]

66. Huh?

*snap*
*snap*
You still with us?

[BillyJack]

68. Save the chickens!

[flvegan]

69. I'm gonna

open a beer and have one with you.

:toast:

[BillyJack]

71. I don't drink....but thanks. n/t

[earthlight101]

74. SAD THAT THIS SORT OF NONSENSE IS ASSOCIATED WITH LEFTISM IN AMERICA

IN AMERICA, SADLY, THIS IS THE SORT OF NONSENSE THAT IS ASSOCIATED WITH LEFTISM. INSTEAD, LEFTIST ACTIVISTS SHOULD BE DOING THINGS THAT MATTER TO WORKING CLASS PEOPLE, THINGS LIKE SUING BOSSES AND CORPORATIONS THAT MAKE THINGS DIFFICULT FOR WORKERS. THINGS LIKE SUING THE GOVT FOR MAKING IT ILLEGAL TO ADVOCATE THAT FEDERAL WORKERS STRIKE.

BUT INSTEAD WE HAVE THIS SORT OF NONSENSE THAT OCCUPIES THE TIME OF WHAT ARE OSTENSIBLY LEFTIST ACTIVISTS--SUING LIVE CHICKEN SELLERS.

THIS IS ONE PART OF WHY MAJORITARIAN LEFTISM IS MARGINALIZED IN AMERICA--LEFTIST ACTIVISTS CHOSE TO DO THINGS THAT MAKE LEFTISM ATTRACTIVE TO FOO FOO YUPPIES AND NOT TO WORKING CLASS PEOPLE. MAYBE RICH PEOPLE FUND THIS SORT OF WORTHLESS LEFTISM TO HELP ASSOCIATE LEFTISM WITH THIS SORT OF NONSENSE IN THE MINDS OF THE MAJORITY. BEST FRIENDS OF THE RICH IS WHAT WE HAVE HERE.

[Marrah_G]

76. If he was selling birds that were treated humanely I would stand up for him

I can't wait for the day that I can supply all my own food, from my own farm :)

[Matariki]

78. Jerks and idiots.

Because plastic wrapped chickens killed in a factory is so much better for animal's rights. Fools.

[cottonseed]

79. It's racist and shows how 1 person with nothing to do can shut down a 20 year business.

Nothing really started to happen until one of the farmers employees called the activist a homophobic slur. After that the GLBT group out of San Francisco decided they cared about animal rights and joined the protest. Until then, it was always just 1 kook picketing a live chicken farmer who thousands of older generation Chinese ladies depended on to keep them from having to buy factory raised shrinked wrapped chickens. Because of this alliance between the GLBT community and this single picketer; a live chicken business, who's been doing it that way for twenty years and sold solely to ethnic Chinese was run out of business.

Oh, on top of all that, all animals (dogs, birds, and snakes) have also been banned in from the farmers market.

I could have sworn I saw a few of them buying lunch at the Carl's Jr. that's open just 100 feet from the chicken farmer. Made me wonder why they didn't picket that.

[NeedleCast]

80. Hooray! Take that job growth!

Why doesn't he have a right to sell a perfectly legal product at the farmers market? Simply because someone doesn't agree with the dietary choices of those who eat meat? This really doesn't seem like a good way to make a case for vegetarianism.

[Stevenmarc]

87. Reminds me of the Portlandia Chicken sketch

http://youtu.be/l2LBICPEK6w

LOL the chickens name is Colin

[KamaAina]

88. You know what's a really tasty vegan snack (as long as you get it without butter)?

A huge 32-ounce tub of :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: .

[TNLib]

99. I am a vegetarian and I have to see this is really sad

I think people need to see where the food comes from and how it is kept. There is far to much disassociation from the animal to the meal. I think these activist are ignorant.