Have you ever been persuaded by DUers at the other end of the political spectrum?

[yurbud]

Poll question: Have you ever been persuaded by DUers at the other end of the political spectrum?

The ongoing tension between the progressive wing of DU and those who would describe themselves as centrists leads me to wonder how much persuading is going on across the lines.

I'm consciously using the labels both sides would pick for themselves so I won't be accused of posting a push poll or insulting anyone.

If you have been persuaded on a big issue (or even small) please post what it was.

[blondeatlast]

1. I don't label myself but I've changed my mind based on what I've read here--many times. nt

[uppityperson]

11. That was what I was going to write. Me too. eom

[AsahinaKimi]

65. Me too..

But there are times I can be stubborn. I blame my mother for that! LOL!

[KoKo]

2. Yurbud...there have been some folks replying to DU Polls who got Granite Pizza..

I would love to reply to this...but, folks in the past have met...early death...if you get my drift.

[yurbud]

7. feel free to PM me--I won't make it public.

[NNN0LHI]

29. I really don't think you have anything to be concerned about KoKo

Seriously.

Don

[KoKo]

30. Don..as you know ...I'm not always with you in some view...so yes...I still am concerned..

Just so you know.

[Horse with no Name]

3. I'm a left leaning progressive and I have never been convinced

by a republican of any stripe.

[JVS]

4. Some moderates have persuaded me that they are worse enemies of progress than I had ever imagined.

Then again, those particular moderates may just be conservatives who are trolling the board.

[Drale]

5. I've really never had a conflict with anyone except

on the issue of guns. I won't bring up anything here, but suffice it to say I've had a few arguments about the issue with some Black and White pro-gun people.

[yurbud]

8. oddly, I'm a little to the right of a lot here on abortion, but got some information that

moved me.

It wasn't that it changed my mind as much as it convinced me that something I was worried about wasn't happening much, so it was primarily a rhetorical problem of the pro-choice people. But then like all progressives, it could well be that they are presented and edited in the media in a way that reduces them to a one note stereotype.

[Snoutport]

33. me too...same issue

Moreso because I've stayed out of the issue since I'm a guy....but I've been shown on here that just staying out of it isn't good enough. (but i'm a firm believer that a super strong sex education program is the best way to reduce abortions).

voter ID too, come to think of it. I used to think it was no big deal to show ID...but since mail in voters don't have to show ID then nobody should have to.

[flvegan]

6. Absolutely.

I'm as far left as they come, but I'm not dumb enough to think I know everything or have the world's foremost insight on every idea or topic. I've had knock-down drag outs with folks here who the very next hour on something completely different made me think another way about something I was either convinced I knew better or just plain weren't as educated as they were on that topic. I'm not going to mention anything specific, but it's happened more times than I'm sure I remember.

[Tesha]

9. I've been persuaded, but not in the way they'd like to think.

I'm a Proud Progressive and my time here "talking"
with the "it's our way or the highway" crowd has
convinced me that our party is headed for the
dustbin of history and it's long-since time for
radical upheaval.

Tesha

[yurbud]

21. if that is the route we have to go, things will get a lot uglier before they get better

but it looks less and less like we have a choice.

The corporate wing of the party doesn't believe in democracy nor in compromise (at least not with those to their left).

[jberryhill]

10. Persuaded to do what?

[Motown_Johnny]

12. only on minor details, not on any serious policy issue

[bluestate10]

13. I cross swords with progressives on DU.

Not because I don't respect their views because I do. I do have a problem with progressives grasp of perspective. I find that too many DU progressives are willing to set the journey to the world they want back decades to prove a point about their political purity. I find that view disconcerting and frankly, dangerous to everything progressives and centrists want for our society.

[Fumesucker]

15. Progressives and centrists don't want the same things for our society..

Otherwise they would all be progressives, or centrists.

[bluestate10]

36. Wrong. The key differential is the pace.

As a centrists, I can think of many progressive causes that I don't share attraction to.

[Bluenorthwest]

39. So it is not the pace, but the cause you do not share?

Why not list the 'many causes' you are not attracted to? Is it too much to just speak like a proud centrist and lay your platform out?

[Hippo_Tron]

51. Can one be a progressive and believe that a progressive agenda isn't going to happen anytime soon

And that until people see the light, electing centrist Democrats over nutjob Republicans is a worthwhile endeavor?

[Fumesucker]

55. Dems keep electing centrists while the Repubs elect right wing extremists..

A recipe for dragging the entire political framework to the right, and the political center in the USA right now is far to the right of where Richard Nixon was.

[Hannah Bell]

56. i think it depends on how old you are & how many centrist democrats

you've seen elected as the country regressed.

it's kind of like consumer democracy; i believed in my 20s but after the thirty year trial period you see it actually doesn't make a bit of difference.

but you know it's a good sell to the young & inexperienced.

[yurbud]

16. are you sure progressives and centrists want the same things?

I would concede that voters in both factions want the same things, but I'm not so sure about the pols.

[yurbud]

17. you're also implying that progressive change is glacially slow yet

we are seeing with various Republican governors and we saw with Bush that the right can move lightning fast to do the work of the wealthy, and centrist Dems vote right along with them.

But when it comes time to do what the majority of Democrats or even the majority of ALL Americans want, things suddenly slow to the pace of a DMV office in the Soviet Union.

[bluestate10]

38. The reason is republicans cry harder.

But every lasting change in society has happened at a slow pace. The laws and changes that republicans are rushing to put in place will be reversed permanently, they always are.

[Hannah Bell]

57. really? i've seen no evidence over the last 30 years. they just keep adding more.

and often democrats are right in there helping.

exhibit a: reagans "social security reform"

exhibit b: free trade agreements

[Tesha]

27. You are *PRECISELY* the sort of person I was speaking about in my reply above.

Thanks for so-eloquently proving my point.

Tesha

[bluestate10]

41. Re-read.

Posts by centrists. Centrists by nature are not "my way or the highway" types. Find your dictionary and understand what centrist and moderate means.

[Tesha]

42. People with no convictions at all; expediency over principle. (NT)

[bluestate10]

46. If you say so. I can promise you that in five years I will make more

positive impact of a journey toward a progressive society that most progressives. Changes in society that are now seen as progressive were accomplished by centrists, many of whom would be despised by DU progressives.

[Tesha]

60. Somehow, I don't see the great civil rights changes of the 50s and 60s...

...(Brown v Board of Education, the 1964 Civil
Rights Act, etc.) emerging from today's crop of
Moderates and Centrists (whom the folks from
the fifties and sixties would simply have called
"Republicans").

But if it lets you sleep at night, go on believing
you're making the same sort of positive differences
that they made.

Tesha

[Bluenorthwest]

43. Dictionary says a 'centrist' has 'moderate views' and that

'moderate' means 'not extreme or limited in scope.' So a centrist has views that are limited in scope. This would be one way to put it.

[bluestate10]

47. Moderate also means "calm", "temperate", "reasoned"

In fact, there as many definitions for moderate as there are for liberal. I want type any of the descriptions for liberal, or progressive, because you are what you see yourself as, even if I see your approach as ill advised.

[TheKentuckian]

61. "Centrists" are as gung ho about their ideology as anyone on the extremes or more so

"Centrist" compromise but only with regressives.

"Centrists" are just as devoted to their flavor of economic and foreign policy as anyone they are willing to bend on civil liberties, the safety net, and always on some one else's civil rights.
They bend one way as not to get run out of the party and the other to work with the opposition to advance their military and/or economic agenda.

There is no center and there sure as fuck aren't any "Centrists" and if there are any they should be ignored for the good of the people and the party. Most people assuming this label agree with the Republicans on economics, foreign policy, the use of the military, and the police state while not being avid theocrats and/or not being bigots (while they are more concerned about not upsetting the apple cart than people's rights).

You are what used to be "reasonable Republicans" and slipping as you become indistinguishable from the mainstream Republicans of the past on most issues.

"Centrists" are toxic to democracy because on structural issues they agree with the fascists and propel the destructive resource imbalance as well as corporate influence.

[Bluenorthwest]

37. What do you mean? That is a characterization, not an example

or definition. You judge that they are 'willing' to set the world back? How? In what way? For purity? What do you mean by that? The vague nature of your language suggests a less than forthcoming post. "I find". What sort of passive crap is that? You mean "my opinion is". If you 'found it', then what was it?
Just a bunch of sound and fury, but what the hell does it signify?

[bluestate10]

44. Behaving in a way that leads to the election of republicans will set progressive causes

back. In some states, way back. The aspect that turns my head is the belief by progressives that getting republicans elected will cause voters to become repulsed. Recent circumstances in Wisconsin, Paul Ryan's budget, Rick Scott in Florida, Kasich in Ohio and Snyder in Michigan seem to give credence to the progressive view. But what of the far more numerous stealth republicans that are damaging town and city halls, state governments and Congress? If republicans step back from their over reach, the party will be able to work toward it's goal of gutting the poor and middle class. Keep dreaming that a Paul Ryan will come along to maybe change election results, keep dreaming that. When you wake from that dream your goals for society will be father away from realization.

[blondeatlast]

14. Is there a place at DU for people who fall at various times somewhere between

the two?

It's an honest question--I've been labeled by DUers, to be certain, but I don't fall at all comfortably in either camp.

[yurbud]

20. yes--nobody should be standing still.

[Modern_Matthew]

18. Other: I'm a Socialist. Centrists are dead to me and Progressives provide stepping stones. nt

[yurbud]

19. stepping stones for you or the centrists?

[bluestate10]

48. Matthew. You are going to at least give centrists the ceremonial

kiss of death before pronouncing them dead?

[jp11]

22. I'm not in lots of threads arguing or debating issues day after day but

by and large I've seen more 'suck it I'm right' than thoughtful arguments or facts and when thoughtful arguments or facts are presented I see virtually no willingness to even entertain an opposing view or recognize that view. Really hard to convince or open eyes if everyone is plugging up their ears and screaming la la la la. Every now and then I do see a discussion that ends in "we'll agree to disagree" but those seem far and few between.

Having said that I do recognize I don't know everything and I will reevaluate my position when new evidence is presented etc. *I* feel most of the people I encounter aren't like that, could be my misinterpretation, it seems too many have dug in an spout off the same position regardless of any counter arguments, often not even entertaining counter arguments for a second.

Granted some arguments are going to be 'old' ones they themselves may have discounted previously but it is far more helpful to the conversation to sum up why it is discounted rather than 'oh not that crap again'. For people who don't follow those things ad infinitum it might be helpful to explain WHY now and then instead of "I'm not doing your research/work for you now shut up you are wrong" or "you're living in a dream world, get real" neither is a way to have a productive conversation.

[Bucky]

23. Back in 2004-05 I was pulled very far leftward (or forward) on supporting gay marriage.

It wasn't only by DUers, but it was in large part due to their relentless arguments in favor of equality and equal protection under the law and all sorts of shit that makes me want to slap my forehead when I think about what I was arguing against just six years ago. For the record, I wasn't opposed to gay marriage, I was against fighting for it. Of course, today I realize that's a difference that doesn't matter.

DU, on the other hand, very much matters on issues we debate over.

I remain a centrist Democrat, by the way. I just happen to contend now that support for full marriage equality is a centrist position.

[KoKo]

24. Understand what you say....but..

where are all those voices who "moved us" these days. Absent.

So...it's interesting how it all works out...in good ways...but, then one is left alone out there...with not much support.

btw: Had a similar experience to yours. I felt it was "Human Rights Issue."

But, what about the killing we are doing everywhere? Isn't this as "human rights an issue" as "Unending War?"

[Bucky]

34. I think I'm in general less inclined to linkage between unrelated issues

I see skads of progress in society on matters like accepting gays that occur independent of other political issues. Think of all those openly pro-gay Republicans these days. As long as they, as a tribe and as a conservative culture, compartmentalize their humanism, we'll have to win them not one heart at a time, but one issue per person at a time. So there's some who are still neo-connish on war issues but support gays in the military, while others wake up to pragmatism on immigration issues but remain knuckle draggers on tax cuts for the rich. Ultimately, this is the mechanics of how, as Gandhi put it, the moral arc of the universe is long but bends toward justice.

I used to say, "I'd be willing to throw the gay marriage question under the bus if it'd stop the war in Iraq." Well, my linkage turned out to be irrelevant. We'll see marriage equality creep forward in state after state regardless of how imperialist American foreign policy is from president to president. Why? Because everyone, even folks in Utah, has a Cousin David and the more he speaks up for himself, the more trouble they're gonna have looking him in the eye at each family reunion and saying why they don't want him to be happy.

I don't know what you mean by "the voices who move us" are absent these days. I still find DU useful for challenging my points of view. The user names might change, but I still find the commerce of ideas to be pretty vibrant.

[get the red out]

25. The Pentagon Budget

I used to think we needed a big military for safety, now I would just LOVE to absolutely slash the Pentagon Budget to shreds and help some people through better social programs and find ways to boost employment at home.

I was definitely swayed through the years by stuff I read on DU on this issue.

But I don't consider myself any political label, except the term Democrat for lack of another. I find myself supporting women's rights to the point that some progressives/centrists/any fucking body, can't deal with. I believe in regulating some things that would make people positively insane and on other things I am totally progressive. And I really piss people off because I really like the President.

Labels don't come in my size, they are too much like one piece bathing suites and I'm different sizes at the top and the bottom.

[Taverner]

26. Guns, hell yeah

And I'm a pacifist

"Oh this does not compute" say the gun grabbers

"But it does if you look at the evidence" says Taverner

"What is evidence?" say the gun grabbers - they only rely on so-called 'common sense' arguments or highly biased studies

Otherwise, I'm socialist, I'm for the legalization of damn-near-everything and I think 'Unemployment Insurance' should be exactly that: when you are out of work you get YOUR MONEY BACK.

I'm also for indoor smoking bans, unless they can find a way to filter out the smoke (all that's needed is a fan, really)

[1awake]

28. yes, on DU by saracat i think in 07,

She changed my views a great deal, and I owe her much. There's been many since as well...

[KoKo]

31. she did make some good points...and, she is missed. n/t

[comtec]

32. I'm a moderate, and I have been convinced once or twice by the far left

and I mean the REAL far left, not the one on tv.

once in a while a centrist (which consider to be to the right of me) will convince me to lean their direction.

I'm a pragmatist, and I accept that I may be wrong, but I also know that we need a fuckton more regulation before the situation improves and we get out of this depression we're in.

[Bluenorthwest]

35. How is today's 'centrist' different from the 'Reagan Democrats'

of the past? Are they the same thing? Do 'centrists' sometimes vote for Republicans? Are they opposed to equal rights? How do they differ from 'moderates' or 'moderate centrists'? Do they eat spicy foods after 9 pm? Does their chewing gum lose its flavor on the bedpost overnight?
I've never had a 'centrist' describe what they believe that is so different from others, never heard compare and contrast on the issues between them and 'progressives' or liberals or Republicans, for that matter? In what way are they not Republicans? In what way are they not progressives?
I figure an avowed 'centrist' or 'moderate' is opposed to equal rights and drug reform, maybe favors the war or Patriot Act. But I'm guessing, as they have no definition. It seems like code speak, dog whistles more than an actual identification.

[KoKo]

40. What about "support for Endless War" with two of the three being illegal and the third

a response to an attack where none of the people in that country participated.

Country under Reagan wouldn't have tolerated those "Incursions" into more Vietnam's...because Vietnam was too fresh in the minds of those young Middle Class who still had power in those times because of the numbers of the population. The older Boomers would not have tolerated what Bush II did, nor Obama.

They were some of what voted for Reagan..and not an insignificant number ...because they were disillusioned with Carter.

[Hannah Bell]

58. i think centrists are those who follow the dlc party line

in dog whistle speak

[Odin2005]

45. The "Centrists" can kiss my rear end.

[Initech]

49. I've got into some really bizarre arguments lately but have yet to be persuaded.

[applegrove]

50. I'm a canadian so I don't fit into those categories. Of course I've been influenced by stuff I've

read on the DU.

[ZombieHorde]

52. I have been persuaded. I don't have many agendas. nt

[TheKentuckian]

53. I learn from folks to my left all the time, the right is failed ideology about all the way over.

[Rochester]

54. Other: I'm socially moderate but economically leftist

[Mister Ed]

59. IF THEY WRITE IN ALL CAPS I'm usually convinced they must be right.

Also, I can usually be shamed into agreement by the use of the rolly-eyes emoticon.

:eyes:

[DirkGently]

62. Raises the difference between persuasive argument vs. attack / propaganda / flaming

No one ever changed someone else's mind with the verbal equivalent of "You're stupid, I win! Now shutup! hahahahaha!"

Something about the Internet (anonymity?) really seems to feed that mode, although DU in general is far better than a lot of Internet forums in that regard (brains?).

On the other hand, differing views that seem considered, thoughtful, and open to discussion -- the kind of thing that can't fit on a bumper sticker and can be said without some kind of sloganeering or name-calling -- can influence, persuade, or enlighten.

Persuasion doesn't happen by beating someone down. It happens when you open them up.

[yurbud]

68. I gave up another board because the attacks were so vicious, and somehow, hiding someone else's

comments doesn't seem like a real solution since they are taking a dump on you and everybody else can see it but you.

[Romulox]

63. If anything, DU exposes how weak "centrist" arguments are.

They don't amount to much than the platitudes of self-hating Republicans. :shrug:

[yurbud]

64. only without the self-hating

[WilliamPitt]

66. All the time. n/t

[Philippine expat]

67. But I'm both progressive and centrist ,

depending upon the subject being discussed.