Another Too-Fat-To-Fly Controversy Hits Southwest Airlines

[The Northerner]

NYC Political Strategist: Me, Mom Told We Must Buy 4 Seats

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) — Southwest Airlines has apologized to a mother and daughter who said they got rough treatment at the airport.

Kenlie Tiggeman, a 30-year-old political strategist and weight loss blogger in New York City, said it was humiliating, being told she was too fat to fly, reports CBS 2’s John Slattery.

“It was rude. It was in front of lots of people,” said Tiggeman, who’s originally from New Orleans.

Tiggeman said the incident happened in Dallas over Easter. She and her mother were told by a gate agent they each had to purchase two seats.

Read more: http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/05/18/another-too-fat-to-fly-controversy-hits-southwest-airlines/

[BlueJazz]

1. If you can't fit in the seat provided, whether thru size or weight, then buy an ..

...extra seat. I don't see what the big deal is.???

[Missy Vixen]

2. A last-minute fare is exponentially more expensive.

The policy seems to be selectively enforced.

There is small print on the ticket that states the airline in question reserves the right to re-seat someone else in the second seat you just paid for.

Trust me: I am no more interested in sitting next to those who are bigots towards the fat than they are in sitting next to me. I also will not fly Southwest; even with two seats, I don't care for their policies, or the way they have treated passengers they deem to be "too fat".

[BlueJazz]

6. I see it more as an economic fairness thing. If a Man is 6'6' 340 lbs..

..like some football players and they take up 2 seats then the Airline loses money on a seat that is unsold....unless the player pays for it.

Of course, the seats are to damn small to start off with...but that's another story..

[WatsonT]

25. "Bigots towards the fat"

Wow. So anyone who wishes to be able to use the entirety of the seat they paid full price for is a bigot?

When you cover X amount of my ticket cost then we can talk about you covering X amount of my allotted space.

[Missy Vixen]

37. I'd like to use 100% of my seat, too

Most flights, I'm dealing with knees in the back of my seat, the inability to recline, people climbing over me to use the restroom.

If those who are so insistent on their precious "100%" continue to agitate, perhaps those of us who will end up buying that second seat need to get a little militant as well. I also bought twice as much room in the overhead bin, for instance. I'd like twice the amount of frequent flyer miles. If you are wearing obnoxious amounts of cologne, stink to high heaven from cigarette smoke, or are accompanied by a screaming child, you're impeding on my "100% use" of my seat. Plus, I'm paying twice as much as you are, so perhaps, you should find another mode of transportation.

Interesting how it is when the shoe's on the other foot, isn't it?

[musette_sf]

45. "climbing over me to use the restroom"

May I say that IMHO, if the person in the window seat politely requests that you GET UP to allow him/her to go to the restroom....

PLEASE do it. If they ask, PLEASE don't just sit there and tell me to "climb over you".

Last week I had to change a return flight. All the seats left on the new flight were middle and window. (I am customarily an aisle seat person and customarily reserve long in advance to ensure such seating.). I took window as the lesser of the evils.

The person next to me REFUSED to get up when I needed to use the restroom.

The actions of "climbing over" this person 3 times triggered severe neck and shoulder pain, for which I am now in treatment. Yes, I had two pre-existing conditions that exacerbated the new injury. But do I have to go through an explanation of WHY I need to pass through to the aisle without "climbing over", after asking politely?

I did learn two things - (1) The middle seat would have, in retrospect, been "better" under the circumstances, should this scenario re-occur; and (2) I ALWAYS get up when a fellow passenger needs to access the aisle, despite any protestations to "just climb over" me (which some people somehow think is better), and I am now reassured that this is ALWAYS the best thing to do.

[Missy Vixen]

57. I get up every time

It takes me a few seconds to get out of my seat.

I have been climbed over more than once. After all, they may have to wait ten seconds or so. It's unacceptable.

Lucky thing I don't fly often. I can't imagine the miseries someone like Kevin Smith still endures.

[musette_sf]

77. thanks

I wrote my post as a general plea for sanity and compassion. Especially to the witch in seat 10E on a certain JetBlue flight to SFO. :-)

[stevenleser]

54. You do get twice the frequent flier miles if you buy two seats.

I would wager you also get twice the overhead bin space and twice the amount of luggage to check and carry on. I would also agree with the cologne/cigarette/screaming child stuff.

[Missy Vixen]

55. My information is different

I have been told more than once that no, one does not get twice the frequent flyer miles, despite buying two seats. The person in question is not allowed twice the carry-ons, either.

Everyone seems to be ignoring the real fact that the airlines reserve the right to reseat someone in the second seat you just paid for as well. Read the fine print.

[WatsonT]

70. When the airlines reseat someone in your second seat

then kick you off for taking up too much space let me know.

[Missy Vixen]

78. Maybe you could give Kevin Smith a call

It happened to him. Be sure and let me know what he has to say. He's still waiting for an apology from Southwest Airlines.

In the meantime, those who are soooo intent on keeping "all of their seat" - I'll be happy to make sure the next person that infringes on my area is asked to buy two seats, too. After all, I deserve as much of a force field around my area as you insist on.

:eyes:

[WatsonT]

69. Feel free to do all those things

Of course everyone equally suffers the knees in the back of the seat, inability to recline and having others attempt to use the restroom.

The fact is you consider your right to be overweight to trump everyone elses right to get their full moneys worth on the plane.

If I brought along my kid but said "meh, he doesn't need a seat he can just sit in your lap" would you be sympathetic?

Of course not. That extra space is my responsibility, not yours and I should deal with it (of course seat belt laws would prohibit that, it's merely a hypothetical).

I don't care what weight you or anyone else happens to be, so long as it doesn't directly affect me. Just like I don't care if you smoke, till you blow it in my face. Or drink, until you run me over with your car.

Do as you please, just don't let it affect others.

[joeybee12]

27. Did they make her pay that last minute foare or what she paid for the

original ticket?

[napi21]

5. I don't see any problem with the policy, but there IS such a thing

as courtesy! Flatly telling someone "You're too fat to fly" isn't anything close to courteous. The agent just as easily could have been discreat and said something like, Ms. XXX, you do realize you & your daughter will need to purchase 4 seats don't you? If these 2 people fly frequestly, this couldn't have been the only time she's been told that.

[BlueJazz]

7. Of course, there's no excuse for being rude and hurtful.

[NeedleCast]

30. Part of the deal is the size of a airplane seat

I am slightly overweight but by no means obese. Part of the problem I have is that I'm very broad. At 5'10", with my frame, my "ideal" body weight is about 210 pounds. Sounds heavy to most people, but below about 200 pounds would be unhealthy for me. Should I buy two seats because I'm shaped like a college football lineman?

Perhaps airlines should stop downsizing seats to ensure they can cram more sardines into the can instead.

[BlueJazz]

33. Oh...I agree....I went to Australia last October and I felt like a damn sardine. I'm.....

6' 3' and 240 lb. It was not a happy experience.

They offered some seats with a WHOLE 3 inches extra legroom for $245.00 extra (the seats were the same width)
Big Deal. I passed on that one...as it worked out to about 35 bucks extra per hour. :)

[NeedleCast]

34. For me, it's an issue of shoulder room, not leg room

Depending on the airline, if I sit back comfortably in an airline seat I got over 3 to 5 inches into the seat next to me. I do everything I can to minimize this, as I try to at least be concious of the comfort of people next to me, so I basically have to fold myself up to avoid "squeezing" the person next to me. These days, that tends to be my girlfriend more often than not, so it's not a big deal. I always try to get an isle seat so I can put myself out in the isle instead of the other seat.

I say lets return the blame to where it really lies...The Airlines. In the not too distant past, flying as a fun experience and airlines had plenty of room and high quality service. Now they charge more and don't have either of those things, mainly due to business models that don't work.

[BlueJazz]

76. What you say is true...very True. n/t

[anneboleyn]

65. Yes, I am a 5'5" woman of average weight, and those seats are TOO small.

The airlines just stuff people into those ridiculous seats to make money, then they force us to buy more tickets and make even more money from our discomfort.

I am uncomfortable in economy seats, and I can't move around at all to get things out of my purse, etc. or use the laptop, because I bother the person sitting next to me, encroaching on his/her space. My husband is 6'3" and a big guy, so the economy seats are absolutely impossible for him. His legs won't fit in the small space (I don't think any guy over 6' can fit). We buy first class seats now or two seats if we are stuck in economy. It's the only way for us to feel comfortable and not bother someone sitting net to us.

[cleanhippie]

50. Stop that right now. Common sense is not allowed.

[lynne]

3. Personally, I think airlines should charge by the pound -

- hop on a scale when checking in, have it calculate your weight and your fee and print out a receipt showing both. At some point in the weight calculation, the second seat is automatically assigned. That might even encourage some frequent-flyers to lose weight.

[laundry_queen]

8. Wow. no words. nt

[anneboleyn]

66. I agree. Shaming a person to lose weight by weighing her in front of other passengers?

The anti-fat bigotry in this country has gone beyond all humanity or common sense. Forget etiquette, it is perfectly acceptable now to ridicule fat people.

[WatsonT]

71. Saying people who take up two seats should consider losing weight or buying the second seat

is bigotry?

If a black person, or female, or homosexual sits next to me that hurts me not in the least. Complaining then would be simple bigotry.

If a morbidly obese person sits "next" to me and overlaps half my meager allowance of space that does affect me. So it isn't bigotry to complain, I have a legitimate grievance.

[A HERETIC I AM]

11. That's basically what they do with air freight.

And for all practical purposes, it doesn't matter at all to the airplane whether the freight is breathing or not. It still has to lift the weight.

[Union Scribe]

20. It doesn't seem it matters much to the companies, either.

Passengers are xrayed, probed and packed like freight, might as well charge them that way.

[Javaman]

61. How dare you call me freight! I perfer cattle.

:rofl:

[Zywiec]

19. Or simply pass through an opening the width of a standard seat

All airlines have a box showing the maximum storage size for carry-on, they could do the same for seats.

If you can't walk through the width of the seat, you need two(or more).

[CreekDog]

91. Sheesh! These schemes to solve problems are inhumane and yet you concoct them

honestly, you can't even see how ridiculous what you're suggesting is.

the ticket is to fly a person. people come in different sizes only a part of their size is within their control.

if you want to move boxes, charge by the weight, if you want to move people, you can't treat them like boxes.

we have certain dignities as human beings --but you and several others here would rather do away with those, ironically, in the interest of some sort of warped "fairness".

i sense if you were on the overfilled lifeboat, you'd be happily throwing passengers you deem unworthy of living off of the sides --you certainly give the impression that's the way you think.

:rant:

[Javaman]

32. Weighing your bags...

bags are weighed so that the person in charge of weights and balance knows how to properly load the plane for flight. Combined with the weight of the fuel, a plane has to maintain a level flight otherwise engine strain and torque on the plane itself could result in an accident or crash.

Also there has been a trend in flying over the last 20 years regarding passengers taking more and more luggage. This prompted airlines to start charging for that extra bag. Not because of the additional bag per say, but the actual weight of the bag. They have gotten heavier. Thus requiring more fuel to move that bag. (this doesn't take into account that people are also flying less thus driving up cost).

That aside, we have an obesity epidemic in our society. What was once a rare thing is now becoming problematic in the airline industry.

Trying to maintain weights and balance on a flight were 30 percent of the passengers are overweight or grossly overweight becomes a gigantic issue.

Read down the thread. I elaborate on this more.

Cheers!

[Tracer]

39. This actually happens!

Me and a friend flew over to Nantucket in a small 6 passenger plane.

Prior to boarding, they made my somewhat overweight friend get on a scale.

I imagine with small planes there is definitely a total weight limit that they can't exceed for safety.

[Javaman]

62. Yes, there is.

smaller engines only have so much power for speed which contributes to lift. Any additional weight will be a strain.

We've all seen those scenes in movies where they are "losing power" and have to "lighten the load" by tossing stuff out the window.

A bit of hollywood, but the same principle.

[CreekDog]

90. i think they should just charge you more

:eyes:

[dkf]

4. As someone who has been feeling claustrophobic in planes recently

I pray that a person who weighs a bit much will buy an extra seat instead of squishing me.

I think if it were really bad I would have to ask for a different seat.

[Arugula Latte]

9. A lot of planes now are booked full.

They fly fewer flights, but they pack 'em in when they do, so it's not always possible to switch seats.

[dkf]

10. That is why I pray they were considerate enough to do so.

Ugh just the thought of being in the middle of two people who are squishing me is freaking me out. I used to book the inside seat so I could lean on the window but now I am thinking I need an aisle seat.

[Withywindle]

13. +1

Overbooking is a big part of the problem. As is airlines cramming seats together as narrowly as possible.

[ProfessorGAC]

22. +1e9

I fly about 10 trips a year. I can't remember the last time i was on a plane that had more than a few empty seats, and usually the plane is fully loaded.

The airlines are opreating on a business model that now nearly eliminates flexible seating.

GAC

[Travelman]

12. Compared to most airlines

Southwest is actually pretty generous on this policy.


Typical case on, say, American Airlines:

If you need a seat belt extension, you almost certainly have to purchase a second seat. If the MD-80 that you're on, with a capacity of 112 passengers only has 48 on board, you still have to buy the second seat at whatever fare they decide to charge. That fare is non-refundable once the door closes and the plane pushes away from the gate, even if the plane is so empty that you have an entire aisle to yourself.


Standard policy on Southwest:

If you need a second seat, or even just want a second seat, you purchase that seat at whatever the lowest fare is. If the plane is actually full, you're still guaranteed your second seat. If the plane is not full, and you can be seated in such a fashion that everyone who wants to board gets to do so, and you still have your empty seat next to you, then they refund the cost of the second seat, even if your second seat was bought at a non-refundable fare. From a money standpoint, no other airline in the US does that.


Anyone who has flown frequently on a lot of different airlines will concur that Southwest has some of, if not the most generously-sized coach seats in the sky. Southwest sacrifices aisle space in order to widen seats, and an inch or two really makes a big difference for lots of folks, myself included. I'm not exactly competition weight myself, but I also know that my size has never protruded onto anyone else's seat, even in relatively small seats of tinker-toy regional jets like AA and US and UA are using extensively now damn near everywhere. Judging from the video, this lady is still pretty big, even if she has lost a lot of weight. I commend her on losing the weight, but I suspect that what happened here is that the gate agents did her a favor on a not-full flight going to Love Field before Easter and didn't even bring the matter up, but she was flying on a rather full flight coming home and her size was going to cause discomfort to whoever was seated with her (them) at the end of a busy holiday weekend of flying. It's a long way from Dallas to LaGuardia (I'm guessing via Hobby) and it would have been pretty uncomfortable for someone else to be stuck next to these folks for the long flight back home to New York. They really should have considered that before purchasing tickets, and clearly did not.

Not to be hard-hearted or anything like that, but the simple fact remains that both of these women knew that they were grotesquely overweight when they bought their tickets, knew (by their own admission) that this had been a problem in the past, and should have considered passenger loads before flying this time around without an extra seat between them. That sounds harsh, but what else is everyone else to do in such a circumstance? It's hardly like it's their fault for buying a ticket that wound up seating them next to someone who was going to spill over into their seat. And no, the "armrest rule" doesn't really address this, because people ooze out from under armrests all the time.

[Withywindle]

14. That IS really generous, I must say.

I really fucking hate the way airlines treat people like cattle - flying now is like riding Greyhound used to be in the 80s, in terms of human dignity and quality of service.

But space on airplanes really is limited, by the laws of physics if nothing else, and I have to admit I really HATE paying for a whole seat and only getting half a seat due to the person assigned next to me being, er, extra-wide. Spending a whole five-hour flight with one's liver pressed against the far armrest by the pressure of a total stranger's sheer mass is not OK either.

I really do think that if a person is big enough to require two seats, than s/he should have to buy two seats, because otherwise, that's cheating someone else out of their fair share of a seat. But there MUST be a more tactful way of handling it than this. (Maybe at the point of purchase? I mean, what happens if three people buy tickets online, are seated in a tight three-seat row, and when all of them arrive at the airport, it turns out they're ALL too big to fit in one seat?)

[spinbaby]

18. Southwest is the only airline with room for my knees

I'm not even that tall, but often find my knees jammed into the seat in front of me. Southwest has a couple more inches between rows of seats and that makes all the difference. I always fly them when I can.

[blondeatlast]

74. A few years ago I flew overseas on Malaysian Airlines in coach.

Not a pleasant experience, the cabin was horribly cramped. We flew from LAX to PHX (home) on southwest.

My God, it was like flying first class compared to the MA flights! Way more legroom and an appreciable bit more shoulder room.

[Travelman]

81. Yep. The Asian airlines in particular tend to pack people like sardines.

JAL, Cathay Pacific, and to some degree Singapore Airlines are pretty much the exception to the rule. China Eastern, China Southern, Air China, China Airways, Vietnam Airways, Korean Airlines, and a whole host of smaller local/regional carriers just practically stuff people into their seats. Not comfortable at all, particularly on a really long flight.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

15. Having flown all the way to South Africa next to a woman of atleast 400 pounds...

and of questionable personal hygiene all I can say is God Bless Southwest Airlines! I have seen people who couldn't possibly be comfortably seated in first class stuffing them next to other passengers is terribly unfair.

[LLStarks]

16. Let this be a wake-up call that people need to lose weight and live healthy. nt

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JTFrog]

21. +1 n/t

[Cid_B]

23. Dunno about all that...

They just need to buy an extra seat instead of oozing over into mine...

[anneboleyn]

67. I agree. The anti-fat bigotry really bothers me. Do we really need to shame people?

No humanity in this, nor do I think it is appropriate to try and shame and ridicule others of whom we disapprove. Just encourage people to buy extra seats. The airlines can work out a reasonable way to do this. Given the absurdly small size of airline seats, most people are uncomfortable. I am 5'5" and average, and I feel claustrophobic. My husband and I fly first class or buy extra seats so that we can move around a bit.

[WatsonT]

24. You know what else is unfair? Paying for a full seat and only being able to use 3/4s of it.

[joeybee12]

29. Yup...if you pay for a seat you should be able to use that seat, not be squished

because someone is in half of yours...and please don't anyone tell me this doesn't happen.

[Gormy Cuss]

36. Really? Then every middle seat should automatically be discounted by 1/2

because far too often the aisle and window seat passengers insist on hogging the armrests.

[joeybee12]

41. You can ask people to stop doing that if they are physically able to contain

themselves in their own seat.

[Gormy Cuss]

49. Why should the middle seat passenger have to ask? That person paid for the seat

and the two armrests. For that matter, why aren't there pop out separations to enforce passengers to keep their legs, arms, shoulders, and heads in their own seat space? Why aren't kids who like to kick the seat in front of them charged for two seats too? If I want to lower the seat back all the way, shouldn't I be charged for a portion of the seat behind me too?



(yes, I'm being sillier and sillier to make a point. There are a great many inconveniences possible in air travel, but it's only obese passengers that are singled out for the penalty. And yes, I've been wedged next to a very obese passenger for a cross country trip so I do know what it's like.)

[joeybee12]

52. You have to ask because people are not considerate...

you would hope people would take up their own space, and only their own space, but they don't.

[Gormy Cuss]

56. If you have to ask, chances are good that the person will start harrumphing

and act ticked off for the rest of the flight because as you noted, some people aren't considerate.
The real problem is that too many rows have been crammed into the planes and there is insufficient personal space.

[joeybee12]

58. No doubt about that...flying used to be fun...now it's something to endure...nt

[WatsonT]

73. While it's certainly true that no one, ever, has at any point complained about children on airplanes

:sarcasm: that doesn't negate the fact that morbidly obese individuals physically cannot fit in the space allotted to them.

A child may scream, or not. Your neighbor may be selfish with the arm rests, or not. But an obese person can't choose to shrink. They're going to take up a set amount of space no matter what.

So you can complain to the individual responsible in the first two and have a reasonable shot of getting a solution.

But telling the person next to you to be less fat? Good luck with that.

[Gormy Cuss]

79. What about tall people?

Should someone who is over 6' 4" be required to pay for two seats too? How about half price for adults who are under 5' since they don't take up any more room than children?

[WatsonT]

72. Only if armrests constituted half the entire seat and you were not allowed to use either

a discount I could see, but half is too much.

Also that is a structural issue associated with the plane, not the passengers.

[Gormy Cuss]

80. Middle seat occupants can't expand into the aisle or lean against the window like their neighbors.

That's why half seems about right to me. It is both a structural issue and a problem of passengers taking up more space than is allotted by default.

[Javaman]

26. Weight and Balance...

prior to ever flight, a plane needs to be properly balanced.

Fuel and luggage are the top priorities when balancing a plane. This is why they weigh your bag before getting on.

There is a person that does this. They have to sign an affidavit each time a plane is loaded and ready for flight.

If a plane crashes and it is found that the weight and balance wasn't properly measured, the person who signed off on the document is now criminally libel.

My sister did this job for years. She finally stopped doing it for two reasons.

1) the stress is incredible. Always doubting oneself. "is it properly balanced?", etc...nightmares were common.

2) she had worked in the airline industry for 30 years. And over that time, she has seen a gradual increase in the size of the average passenger. There had been a variety of internal discussions at the two airlines she worked at during her tenure, regarding passenger weight and how it reflects on weights and balance. There were all sorts of suggestions, but the bottom line came when someone suggested, "if they can't fit in their seat, then their weight will become a legal issue if the plane ever crashes". Well, one could argue, "that was only one person". No. On several flights over the past 7 to 10 years, various passengers of a larger nature had to be asked to move. Why? so the airplane could be properly balanced.

What was once an occasional problem is now a very common problem in regards to weights and balance.

There is no easy way to say it, but Americans have become overweight and the rate of obesity has skyrocketed.

Simply making seats "wider" doesn't fix the weights and balance issue.

Personally, after all the crap my sister told me that goes on in the airline industry, I take the train now.

[KittyWampus]

31. What an interesting and educational post. Your post is the reason I still read DU.

Thank you for adding that information.

It is very important to understanding this issue and I personally think that the flying public needs to know this information.

[SoCalDem]

38. When passenger flight was new, passengers were weighed

and of course the "flight attendants" were nurses too:)


History of Flight

Then & Now: A Weighty Matter

By Roger A. Mola
Air & Space Magazine, February 01, 2009


Briefcase in hand a passenger weighs in at London’s Croydon Aerodrome before a flight to Scotland in 1934. The checks were necessary to ensure the airplane wasn’t too heavy for takeoff. Briefcase in hand, a passenger weighs in at London’s Croydon Aerodrome before a flight to Scotland in 1934. The checks were necessary to ensure the airplane wasn’t too heavy for takeoff.

SCIENCE & SOCIETY PICTURE LIBRARY/SCIENCE MUSEUM
http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/Then--Now-A-Weighty-Matter.html



Airlines have always been sensitive to takeoff weight because every pound burns fuel. In aviation’s early days, flying commercial meant counting not just pounds but ounces. Not only were bags weighed; people were too. For its inaugural San Francisco-to-New York flight in 1933, Boeing Air Transport made sure its Boeing 247D with 10 passengers and one flight attendant was no heavier than 16,805 pounds at takeoff.

“The 247 was not exactly a 747,” explains Michael Lombardi, Boeing’s historian. “The weight of the stewardess and her equipment—lunches, thermos jugs of coffee, blankets, pillows, magazines, fly swatter—was figured in as a constant part of the airplane,” he says. The airline allowed 121.5 pounds for all the convenience items and 135 pounds

for the flight attendant, who was weighed planeside along with the sacks and crates.

Passengers using England’s Croydon Aerodrome in the mid-1930s had to step on scales with their bags in hand, recalls Frank Anderson, chairman of the Croydon Airport Society. “The snag was that if you were very large, you would pay more not only for your baggage but for yourself,” he says. “Some of the booking clerks were discreet when announcing the weight, especially with the ladies.”

By the early 1950s, U.S. airlines largely had stopped weighing people, relying instead on standard government tables to calculate the proper weight and balance of the aircraft. The Federal Aviation Administration updated those tables in 2005 with Advisory Circular 120-27E , which calculates an aircraft’s operational empty weight, cargo payload, and the weight of fuel and passengers to load for proper center of gravity. For passengers, the FAA now figures an average man in summer clothes weighs 200 pounds and the average woman, 179 pounds. On flights between November 1 and April 30, when winter clothing is factored in, the FAA adds five pounds. The standards will be revised if data from U.S. government health agencies show that the average American has gotten at least two percent heavier.

Carriers now separate the fees for baggage from the basic fare they charge customers. Robert Mann, a former airline executive who is now an airline consultant, thinks the pricing is partly meant to encourage passengers to reduce the volume of luggage in the cargo hold and overhead bins.

Although airlines have said they don’t plan to start putting passengers on scales again, they continue to keep a close eye on baggage weight. Last summer, amid soaring fuel prices, American Airlines was among the first to charge for the first checked bag. And in November, airlines began slimming the size of carry-ons with new rules, fees, and the installation of sizing frames at security machines to block oversized items. Since weight increases costs, passengers and airlines are partners in the bottom line.

[Javaman]

59. That's how my Aunt started out...

She became a nurse and got into flying early on.

Found it less than satisfying. LOL She said it was like flying in a barn.

She then joined the Army and served as a nurse in Europe during WWII.

Very interesting woman. I miss her.

[CreekDog]

95. I took a Skywest puddle jumper once and they told us the seats wouldn't be assigned

(it was a 30 seater)

rather, they said to get on the plane and they'd rearrange us to balance the plane once we were all on.

they ended up seat-belting my rollaway into the seat next to me. :D

[Javaman]

104. That's the basic it works. :) nt

[Renew Deal]

28. “If a passenger cannot fit in a seat with the armrests down, a second seat must be purchased."

A spokeswoman for Southwest said: “If a passenger cannot fit in a seat with the armrests down, a second seat must be purchased. If the flight is not full, that added charge will be refunded.”

[hifiguy]

35. That seems fair enough

When I get on a plane, I have paid for ALL of MY seat too, and expect to be able to use the full amount of what little space I have bought.

[Goblinmonger]

46. My son in 6', 170 pounds

Very fit; very little body fat. A wrestler. His shoulders are HUGE. I guarantee that in a standard airline seat, his shoulders spill over the width of his seat into the seat next to him. I flew next to him recently so I know that is true. Does he have to pay for a second seat?

[cbdo2007]

47. I'm 6'1" and 200 pounds and I fit in the seats just fine. No need to exaggerate your story

to try to make your point.

[Goblinmonger]

64. He has some of the broadest shoulders I've seen personally.

We measured them when this came up on the news last year. His shoulders at that point were at about 20" across. Most seats are under 18" in width.

[anneboleyn]

68. Really? My husband is 6'3" - he doesn't fit at all, too tall and his limbs poke everyone around him

The only way for him to "fit" without bothering the person next to him is to keep his arms against his side for eight hours and his knees together and scrunched up. We buy extra seats or go first class. I am 5'5" amd average, and I feel uncomfortable in those aconomy seats.

[hifiguy]

51. I am 6'1", 215# and have broad shoulders, too.

I wear a 46-48 suit coat. I don't mind a bit if I have to hunch my shoulders together or sit a little kitty-cornered in order to make sure the person next to me has their space. It isn't uncomfortable for me and I like to practice what I preach in this regard. There is no reason he (or I) should have to pay for a second seat.

[Javaman]

63. I'm 6'2" and 190.

I used to fly a lot. I have, what is termed, "broad shoulders". I have never had a problem.

My issue is with leg room.

[snooper2]

85. I'm 5' 11",. 195 lbs

I flew back yesteday on an American Airlines MD80...

I fit fine in my seat...

Now the young girl who HAD to recline her seat in front of me to the max position pissed me off...laptop was half on my stomach with the back on the tray so I could see the screen. They should limit the recline position by about 2-3"..

different issue though...

[Goblinmonger]

87. My problem is with the "you should be charged more if you don't fit the seat"

Most seats are under 18" wide. My son, who is not by any means fat, has shoulders over 20". He DOESN'T fit within the confines of the seat. So by the logic above, he should have to buy a second seat. That is ridiculous. There is a problem with the seat size if a healthy, athletic high school male can't fit in the confines of the seat. And it would be discrimination if he isn't forced to buy a second seat (which he hasn't and won't be) and someone is that is overweight.

[snooper2]

89. The seat is 18", then you have an armrest on both sides..

and if you are on the window seat you have a couple extra inches to lean against, and if you are in the aisle seat you have space to your left or right, only need to move an elbow for the cart with drinks...

I don't think your case has much merit...

We are talking about people who's flab comes over the top of the armrest 6-10" on each side...

Those are the folks that need another seat.

[Hepburn]

43. Seems perfectly fair to me...

...sorry, but this has nothing to do with fat discrimination. I have orthopedic problems and I suffer pain and not merely discomfort if crammed in or squished. I do like Southwest. They allow those with disabilities to board first and the section at the front of the plane where the seats face each other is perfect for someone like me. No one can put a seat back or walk over me and cause agony.

[LanternWaste]

40. we all place different priorities on different things...

I've been squished on airplane flight in the past. I never perceived it as the melodramatic, end-of-the-world scenario, depriving me of life, liberty and humor. It was a minor inconvenience, no big deal, my life went on without being the poorer for it.

But I do understand that many people would raise petulant hackles and righteously rant about "getting all the seat I paid for... regardless!" I imagine it's a drag to go through life getting emotional about these most benign of inconveniences... but I guess we all place different priorities on different things... :shrug:

[petronius]

82. I agree. I've been squeezed by the plump and the muscle-bound at one time or another,

yakked at by the boring, had my hand clutched by the terrified, and been ear-assaulted by the infants - but none of it had a lasting impact beyond the momentary annoyance. We're all in the same metal tube going through the same stressful process, why not ease it a bit with a little generosity of spirit?

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mentalsolstice]

44. Have a sample seat...

next to the box that let's you know if your carry-on is of acceptable size. If you can't fit into the sample seat, then you're on notice that you may have to pay for an extra seat at the gate. I've been sandwiched in the middle seat between two larger people, and I've been in excruciating pain by the end of the flight because I lacked the space to shift my weight a little for comfort. I've also had this problem at crowded movies, where the person next to me had to raise the armrest between us so they can fit into the seat.

I've been overweight in the past, my mother is morbidly obese, so I truly feel for those persons who are put in this position. Too bad we can't come up with a solution where everyone comes through with their dignity intact.

[cbdo2007]

48. This policy is horrible, unless the large person is sitting next to me - then it's ok.

I have a right to be comfortable in my seat just as much as they have a right to fly.

[Javaman]

60. I think the word "right" is thrown around quite wrongly these days...

it's a privilege to fly, not a right.

Just me being a civics police officer. lol

Cheers!

[CreekDog]

93. Rights are what you have

Privileges are what you call things you have that other people want.

[Javaman]

103. Incorrect. Rights are written into law.

there is nothing on the books that says, "you have a right to fly". It's privilege, just like driving.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren DeMontague]

75. The crux of the problem is that they cram too damn many people on the planes.

I'm about 6 feet, and I'll be damned if my knees aren't jammed up against my face half the times I fly. I can't imagine what it must be like for people who are actually, you know, tall.

That said, it's not fair to the person next to you if you're spilling over into their seat. If you need two seats, you should buy two seats.

[Beaverhausen]

83. Looks like no one bothered to read the rest of the article. This was a return flight...

...she wasn't told on the first flight to buy 2 seats. Also, she COULD sit in the seat with the armrests down, so they relented and let her fly.

This sounds more the result of an asshole gate attendant.

[snooper2]

84. I love how people bitch about the seats, that were installed in the 80's

we get bigger, the seats stay the same size....


I've got a solution for folks concerned about having to pay for two seats...

www.avis.com

[CreekDog]

92. What percentage of planes are flying that were operated in the 1980s?

genius. :eyes:

[snooper2]

94. late 80's , early 90's

doesn't take a genius, of course I am pretty good with the googles... :rofl:

from 2008 article
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/BusinessTravel/story?id=4622145&page=1

Of roughly 4,400 airplanes worldwide that are 21 years or older, half of those are in the United States, according to John Stilmar, an analyst with Friedman, Billings, Ramsey & Co., who follows the airplane leasing business.

In September 2001, the average age of American Airlines' aircraft was 11 years old, according to a report by Stilmar. By the end of 2006, the average age of the fleet American was flying was 14.



Or you can look at wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines

Aircraft In service Orders Passengers IFE Introduction Notes
F J Y Total
Boeing 737-800 153 54<87> 0 16 Old: 132
New: 148 Old: 148
New: 160 Old: Overhead monitors, audio system
New: LCD overhead monitors, audio system
Select aircraft: Go-Go Inflight Internet 1999 Aircraft in the new configuration have AC power outlets underneath the seats in all rows.<88>
Aircraft in the old configuration have DC power underneath the seats in select rows.<89>
All 737-800 aircraft will be receiving the new cabin configuration.
N951AA is a retro jet.
Boeing 757-200 Domestic: 106
Int'l: 18 — 0 Domestic: 22
Int'l: 16 166 Domestic: 188
Int'l: 182 All aircraft: Overhead monitors, audio system
Business Class in International Configuration: AVOD 1989 Winglets (All)
All in International configuration (75L) have lie-flat seats in Business Class
All aircraft have DC power underneath the seats in select rows.<90><91>
Oneworld Livery: N174AA
N679AN was a former retro jet.
Boeing 767-200ER 15 — 10 30 128 168 All aircraft: Go-Go Inflight Internet, overhead monitors, and audio system
First and Business Class: AVOD 1986 These aircraft usually operate the American Flagship Service (AFS) trancontinental routes (New York to/from Los Angeles or San Francisco) but occasionally operates JFK-MIA.
All aircraft have DC power underneath the seats in select rows.<92>
Boeing 767-300ER 58 — 0 195 225 All aircraft: Overhead monitors, audio system
Business Class: AVOD 1988 Winglets (11);<93> To be fitted with winglets<94>
Lie-flat seats in Business Class
All aircraft have DC power underneath the seats in select rows.<95>
Oneworld livery: N395AN
Boeing 777-200ER 47 7<96> 16 37 194 247 All aircraft: AVOD, overhead monitors, audio system 1999 Flat bed seats in First Class
Lie-flat seats in Business Class
All aircraft have DC power underneath the seats in select rows.<97>
Oneworld livery: N791AN and N796AN
Special Livery: Pink Ribbon (N759AN)
Boeing 777-300ER — 5<98> TBD TBD 2012 Configuration TBD
Boeing 787-9 — 42 and 58 options TBA TBA TBA (Estimated 2014)<99> Although it has not yet placed a firm order,
the Airline has purchase rights for 42 aircraft and options for 58 more.<99>
McDonnell Douglas MD-82 137 — 0 16 124 140 Select aircraft: Go-Go Inflight Internet 1983 Largest operator of the MD-82
All aircraft have DC power underneath the seats in select rows.<100>
Oldest being replaced by: Boeing 737-800
McDonnell Douglas MD-83 88 — Select aircraft: Go-Go Inflight Internet 1987 Largest operator of the MD-83
All aircraft have DC power underneath the seats in select rows.<100>
Oldest being replaced by: Boeing 737-800

[CreekDog]

97. you said 1980's and the average age is far newer than that

yes, your argument was really cool except it was wrong. :eyes:

average age of fleet (based on flight book 2010-11):

American 14.1 years
United 13.7 years
Delta 14.7 years
Southwest 14.3 years
JetBlue 5.7 years
US Airways 12.7 years

You said the 1980's which was 21-31 years ago.

[snooper2]

98. and you look at the average

Boeing 767-200ER introduction 1986

Boeing 767-300ER Introduction 1988

So, technically I'm still correct...

Overall good point made..



Post contribution to overall thread - 84.82%

:)

[CreekDog]

99. when were 747's introduced?

in the 1970's?

how many of those planes are still flying?

see what you did there? it's called being purposely misleading. Is there some difficulty in making your point convincingly by being honest?

[snooper2]

102. Only thing I can see about seats getting smaller (if that is indeed the point here)

was an article saying something about 2" smaller over the years with no detail...

I did find this :
Anthropometric Study to Update
Minimum Aircraft Seating
Standards

https://dspace.lboro.ac.uk/dspace-jspui/bitstream/2134/701/1/EC1270%20AR2215%20Anthropometric%20seating.pdf


It doesn't say anything about airline seats getting smaller either...

It does continually point out that the traveler is getting fatter and fatter. Therefore, overall point still stands,



Raising post contribution to 86.70%

[CreekDog]

101. the seats in question weren't installed in the 1980's

it's not necessary to be dishonest to argue that people have gotten bigger in recent decades.

[Travelman]

105. It really doesn't matter when the seats were installed

As long is it wasn't done by the Wright brothers or something. Each airline orders their own seats for their airplanes. Seats on Delta are different from seats on American, even if they are otherwise identical MD-80s. In the case of Southwest, we can easily surmise that the seats are just like those they flew in the '80s because Southwest hasn't changed their seats. Every single seat on every single Southwest plane is the same. Every. Single. One. Herb Kelleher wanted the widest seats he could get because Southwest was an all-coach airline operating in a time when first class was still common for the frequent flier and steerage in the back was for all of the "little people." Nothing has changed since Kelleher's tenure ended, except that Southwest now has some 737-800s that weren't around yet when Kelleher retired.

I'll note that it will be interesting to me to see what they manage to do with all of the 717s that they will be acquiring with Airtran, and whether they can keep their basic seating premise of "as comfortable as possible in coach."

[krabigirl]

86. Omg, people should suck it up. My last flight was 12+ hours next to a very obese woman.

3 hours or something is nothing.

[a la izquierda]

88. These situations just suck...

they really do. My husband is 6'2 and 165, so there's no problem with seat width for him. But he eats his knees on flights. We book flights well in advance so he can sit on the aisle to allow him to get up to stretch his very bad knees (he's a cyclist and former soccer player, and has the beginnings of arthritis).
I, on the other hand, can curl up in airplane seats, I'm so small. However, once I was on a flight and the man next to me was quite large. I simply scooted over a bit closer to my husband and let the guy put the armrest up so that he could get a little more comfortable. What do I care? It's a little human compassion that goes a long way to make someone feel better.

[Nye Bevan]

96. I hate that sinking feeling when the amply proportioned person is coming down the aisle

towards you, and you just *know* they are going to sit next to *you*.

Belly fat oozing over the armrest, thigh fat oozing under the armrest. And both converging to spill over into my seat that I have paid for.

[CreekDog]

100. Some posts here reveal that some take a lot of delight at the prospect of punishing fat people

:shrug: