Why not just assemble a lynch mob?

[bbinacan]

Good grief. All this commentary that is so sure of the influences on the shooter is disconcerting. If I have to be judged by a jury some day, there are many on DU that I pray aren't on my jury.

edit to clarify:

I understand the sadness and frustration from today's tragedy. To confidently assert that one group or another caused the murderer to act and that they should have X Y and Z done to them, before knowing anything is scary to me.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[liberalmuse]

2. C'mon.

People are understandably upset. No one has a rope and no one is going to string anyone up. Is it okay to express one's outrage at a tragic event? Is it okay to point out that hate speech likely played a part in this tragedy? The facts will come out, but in the meantime, it is nice to have a forum - yes, FORUM, not courtroom, where people can express their feelings about this horrific shooting.

[DainBramaged]

3. Right, we should reason with the shooter, that will fix it....

:eyes:

[bbinacan]

6. Reason with the shooter?

what are you talking about?

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

29. Of course you don't understand.......

[MattBaggins]

39. He doesn't understand because your comment makes no sense

What the hell does the OP wishing people would wait and see what is found out by investigators to this guys back ground; have to do with your comment about "reasoning with the shooter"?

[DainBramaged]

55. Some of you who think those of us who refuse to lay down for the Right think of us as not pure

Progressives. If we had fought them, spoken out, called them and their lies, this would not have happened. Why didn't he target McLain?


Meh

[datasuspect]

13. after he gives his press conference to thoroughly explain his motives

[NuclearDem]

56. If you're not with us, you're against us

How's that black and white reasoning working out for you?

[socialist_n_TN]

58. Class war is pretty simple, no?

nm

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[Junkdrawer]

5. .

[tallahasseedem]

8. Fail.

This is one of our worst nightmares realized...we should be free to be angry. It's not like we're in the jury room deliberating.

[Teaser]

9. Whatever, genius.

People are venting, it happens. So fucking deal with it.

[Bluebear]

10. This is neither a lynch mob nor a jury. It's what you say, commentary.

[bbinacan]

20. Just look at all the posts

So many are assuming the source of influence. Go look at the shooter's youtube videos. To make blanket assumptions at this point is ludicrous. At this point, no one knows the motivation.

[Jamastiene]

54. Assuming? No.

Here, read this:
KGUN ABC 9 Arizona affiliate reports: Shooter on his facebook page admired Sarah Palin and tea party

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x143507

That pretty much takes the assuming part away.

[WinkyDink]

59. Your exquisite sense of justice is duly noted.

[Bluebear]

72. Here you go: AZ SHOOTER TARGETED CONGRESSWOMAN

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_congresswoman_shot

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[upi402]

12. go away and get up to speed

epic fail

[Skidmore]

14. The one real fact that stands out amidst this all is that a whole nation

can envision a right wing influenced shooter doing this. And why is that???

[Gemini Cat]

I haven't read anything about a fucking lynch mob here.

I don't know where the fuck you're getting that bullshit.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

16. They so often do, don't they? nt

[2Design]

17. remember the left do NOT go and get a gun or anything to hurt someone

[LanternWaste]

18. I believe there's a critical and relevant difference between

I believe there's a critical and relevant difference between the visceral venting of frustration and the reasoned and somber deliberations in a court.

Although I can readily understand many people do not (or cannot not) perceive a difference between the two. And, as you appear to be within that group, I can only hope that you yourself are never on a jury.

[bbinacan]

21. If I were on a jury

I would wait for the facts and make a decision accordingly.

[LanternWaste]

33. Again, if one unable to perceive the difference

I imagine we all think that of ourselves. It's a great twofer shot-- it's both self-validating and implies those around us wouldn't.

Again, if one unable to perceive the difference between a visceral reaction without consequence to a deliberate and conscious decision with actual consequence, that it a person I would not want to see on anyone's jury... :shrug:

[Caretha]

64. Here's a $0.25

Its to buy yourself a clue. This is not a jury, its the DEMOCRATICUNDERGROUND FORUM. If you want to serve on a jury, fine and dandy, just hope your lucky stars that I'm not the foreman on yours....for some damn reason I'm always chosen, and I don't suffer fools lightly.

[Caretha]

65. dupe - self delete

[Sonoman]

19. Yeah, why not? nt

[Lucinda]

22. I think its pointless to play the blame game without facts

But I understand the venting. It's just not the way I function.

[Cleita]

23. We don't do lynch mobs.

We do try to get all the information out there until the truth and facts emerge. Sometimes that involves sorting through a lot of dross. That doesn't mean we are going to lynch anyone.

[cherokeeprogressive]

69. You had your mind made up pretty early though.

"I'm going out on a limb here, but I think I know who targeted Giffords."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=138216&mesg_id=138216

[Cleita]

71. It seems like I'm getting righter about it.

KO had a rep from the So. Poverty Law Center and they are experts on White Militia groups. Also, I never said to lynch them. It seems law enforcement is investigating this connection too.

[kestrel91316]

24. We're just exercising our FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS to speak our minds.

We haven't laid a hand on anyone. We just want justice done, and we know damned well that the RW has been tickled pink about this shooting.

[Lucinda]

25. Would you be "tickled pink" of the orange man had been shot?

I have conservative friends and family. NONE of them think this is a good thing.

[bbinacan]

27. You think

I'm tickled pink about a shooting? Excuse me.

[Lucinda]

28. That post wasn't a reply to you :)

:hi:

[bbinacan]

32. My bad. n/t

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[notesdev]

30. +1 to you

This looks to me like a psych patient who got prescribed something that he shouldn't have been given.

[seabeyond]

40. i dont get this. when they hate talk, are we concerned about the rational being effect?

really.... in all the times we talk about rw hate, are we saying the rational are going to take down our people, or this hate talk is going to effect a nut?

[notesdev]

73. Did you read what he left behind?

Seemed to be picking his wingery cafeteria style, a little from the left, a little from the right, and a whole lot from cuckoo land.

How many right wingers do you know who would list The Communist Manifesto among his favorite books?

[madinmaryland]

31. A "lynch mob". That is a horrible analogy. Whether or not Palin's word

affected this nut, it was bound to affect someone. They have been taking about killing liberals for 15 years without ANY repercussion. Coulter, Beck, Limbaugh, Bolton, Palin, and the list goes on. Have you heard anyone on the left advocate the death of Repukes??

[NuclearDem]

34. I actually whole-heartedly agree with this

Yes, it's easy to assume this guy was a right winger because he ended up shooting up a Democratic event and shooting a Democratic Congresswoman...but what if the guy was just plain nuts?

I mean, have you guys SERIOUSLY seen his Youtube videos? Even if his high school classmate that was interviewed is right that he's an ultra-liberal pothead, this guy might just be mentally disturbed. Oddly enough, ultraconservatives aren't the only people in this country who shoot people.

So yeah, to everyone else here, express outrage at it all you want, but this instant Cold War-esque "THE OTHER SIDE MUST'VE DONE IT, NO ONE ELSE COULD'VE" finger-pointing isn't helping.

[seabeyond]

37. who do you think the hate talkers effect, the rational? nt

[NuclearDem]

45. I'm not saying there's not an environment and rhetoric going around that encourages violence

But the more I read about him, this guy seems more Kacynski and less McVeigh. Sure, the right-wing hate speech and violent tendencies might have been the last straw that drove him to do this and may have hastened it, but I really think this guy was going to do something whether or not he listened to Palin, Beck, et al.

There's really three types of domestic terrorists: the fundamentalist Christians and racists like Eric Rupert Rudolph and Scott Roeder, the ultraconservatives who hate the Federal government as you see in the militia movement and McVeigh, and then there's the group that's simply fed up with some specific aspect of America or "the system" as they see it and have fallen so far in their beliefs that the only answer they see is violence, like Kacynski and Stack.

This guy I think falls into that third category. He obviously has a beef with a very specific part of the system, and he made his beliefs known before he carried out his act through some sort of Manifesto (like Stack and Kacynski did, even though K published his later).

[seabeyond]

47. the hate speech, cross hairs, palin loving lock and load might have been the ONLY thing

that drove him to it, too.

[NuclearDem]

48. That's true too...

And I might very well be wrong about this...but just from what it looks like, this guy doesn't look like he was directly influenced by the Tea Party or the ultra-right.

[seabeyond]

52. arizona politics adn tempature there, i am going to point right at palin, but you are right

i could be wrong. you could be wrong. we could both be right and wrong... lol

[Caretha]

68. Scuse me

He targeted a politcal Democratic event. He didn't go to Safeway just to target random shoppers. Get a grip. It's political whether the idiot is insane or not.

I'm not sure how many of these political violent actions have to happen before you realize there is one party in the US that is ramping up this type of action for you to recognize it. How many? Answer me! HOW FUCKING MANY BEFORE YOU CAN SEE IT AND UNDERSTAND IT?

[Bluebear]

74. You said it.

[NuclearDem]

75. Chill out. Seriously, chill the fuck out.

I'm literally just as outraged as you are.

I'm just saying, after going over major instances of domestic terrorism in the past thirty years, it just seems this guy just didn't fit the bill of someone "just out for Democrats." I'm pretty sure, given his ramblings and psychotic nonsense, he would have targeted a Republican event if he had had the chance.

He was psychotic to the point where he didn't care--he was going to get SOMEBODY to get his message out. He had more of a connection with Giffords, since he had met her at one point, and she was the closest. If he had been somewhere else in the state, he probably would've gone after that district's Rep.

Next time, please READ my fucking post before you go off and try to say I'm not as disgusting with this as anyone else, or that I somehow "don't get" that right wing terrorism is on the rise. I'm just saying, as someone who's ACTUALLY studied and fought terrorism, that this guy doesn't seem to fit the bill of a Timothy McVeigh, but more of a Ted Kacynski or Joseph Stack. In fact, if you'd read my fucking post, you would have noticed I pretty much said it was a political attack--just not of the same type you're thinking.

Just presenting a different analysis, not trying to say it's any less disgusting.

You're more than welcome to disagree with me, but the more you come after me with this ad hominem "you don't get it" crap, the less likely I'm going to be to listen and have a discussion about it.

[Caretha]

78. No I'm not going to "chill out"

There are some things that people should "chill out" about, but this ain't one of them. Six people are dead. If that isn't enough to raise your state of awareness that "right wing terrorism is on the rise" and it is directed at Democrats, I don't know what is.

Now is the time to call them ALL out before other innocent people die because of their reckless rhetoric. The violent messages that the radical right wing politicians, pundits and media big mouths spout day in and day out has got to stop. Of course the lunatic is psychotic, and could have targeted a Republican politician, but he didn't did he? The lunatic shot who he was told to target. It is really that simple.

I would hope that you understand that, since you claim to have studied and fought terrorism. I'm sure in your "study" you learned that terrorist are fed subliminal and not so subliminal propaganda and messages of who to hate and attack.

So get with the program Man, and be honest. Quit making excuses and understand that radical right wingers believe this is a war, and that any and all means, including violence, are acceptable ways to win.

[NuclearDem]

87. Ugh, again you either didn't read my post or you missed the point ENTIRELY

Tell me where exactly I said I don't believe right wing terrorism is on the rise.

You can't. Because I never said that. I not only want the people who incite this sort of violence to knock it off, I'd be happy to see many of them arrested and charged with depraved indifference homicide.

I know the militia movement is back. I know those same people are directing a lot of violent threats and actions against Democrats. I know how dangerous these guys are. And except for the parts where you essentially call me an idiot, I agree 150% with your post.

I was simply saying--WHAT IF this guy wasn't influenced by the militia? WHAT IF this guy didn't take his cues from Palin et al. but rather just killed the first Rep he could? WHAT IF this guy fit more of a Kacynski profile and less of a McVeigh profile?

Don't do that, the making assumptions about my beliefs just because I'm able to sit down and analyze a situation differently than you. It's not helping.

[Bluebear]

84. Thank you.

[seabeyond]

85. you are welcome, lol. nt

[Caretha]

63. Of course he was plain nuts,

so was Booth, what's your point?

[EFerrari]

35. In order to hold that viewpoint, you have to ignore the rhetoric of assassination

used by Palin, Bachmann and others since 2007.

Objectively, they created a context. That's not frustration or sadness speaking. They did that.

[seabeyond]

36. yet you jump right in when twitter says hard left wing. nt

[Duer 157099]

38. Fortunately, this is a discussion board, and not a jury

We discuss here, that's what we do. Discussions are not just limited to strict facts. They include opinions, intuitions, guesses, etc.

But then, you know that.

[tnvoter]

41. you honestly believe Palin's rhetoric had NOTHING to do with this?

Among the victims are a "liberal" congresswoman and a "liberal" judge whose voting records have been vilified by Palin.

Do you honestly expect the rest of us to think that they were not targeted? This was no a random act of violince. That much is clear. That these two victims are enemies of the right is no secret. Oh please....

[mix]

42. You haven't been paying attention if you think this wasn't a right wing hit. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

43. what a pantload

[Pathwalker]

44. Could you climb up on this here horse, so we can adjust your necktie?

Pretty please? ;-)

[seabeyond]

46. btw... it is not the left that does the lynching. nt

[SidDithers]

49. K&R...

Agreed.

Sid

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

50. I get what you are saying,

but I, too, am getting scared simply by being someone who is will call herself a dem and lib.

At some point, we have to push back, and call the other side out on their violent rhetoric. Speech does have consequences, whether the shooter was a teabagger or not, it is our peeps that getting mowed down.

[rucky]

51. Interesting. n/t

[Jamastiene]

53. Right, sure. We are practically a "lynch mob" because we would like

it if the teabaggers, MSM, Republicans and various others would tone down the militant violent rhetoric. Sure, that makes us horrible people.

:sarcasm: <----in case you need it.

Oh, and Unrec.

[tabasco]

57. Grow a backbone

and a brain.

[H2O Man]

60. Strongly disagree.

[upi402]

61. so i don't say something bad, welcome to ignore

YOU don't know anything OP

[leeroysphitz]

62. I thought that's what we were doing.

[Lex]

66. A "lynch mob" isn't a bunch of conjecture on a messageboard.

Good god, do you even understand what a "lynch mob" actually is?

[Batgirl]

67. So this is where the jury pool is convening? Right here on the DU?

Oh goody!

[NNN0LHI]

70. This is not a jury friend

This is a private web site.

Perhaps you are confused?

Don

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NuclearDem]

77. And the right is the only group that calls for murder?

:eyes:

[Caretha]

79. In you infinite wisdom and unfailing sense of fairness

could you please send me links and evidence where the left calls for murdering their opponents?

[NuclearDem]

86. The deleted post contained a call for the shooter to be killed LHO-style

No, it's not the same thing as the right doing it, but it's still calling for someone's murder.

Now will you PLEASE knock off the ad hominems before I start reporting your posts?

[seabeyond]

81. yes. nt

[krabigirl]

80. It is pretty asinine. The guy had serious issues, but everyone just wants to politicize it.

Sad, the whole thing is just sad.

[seabeyond]

82. no. not politicize it. we want the hate to stop as a political tool. we want the nation to say NO

to crosshair politics. i think it is just sad... that there are people saying, be quiet. dont say a thing. dont be angry that we are what we are today, that a 9 yr old child dies because of the hate perpetuated by the rw.

who gives a fuck about politics. what i give a fuck about is what we as a society are allowing by staying quiet.

[Bluebear]

83. Whatever.