on the debt ceiling and where we are as a nation

[nadinbrzezinski]

first off, there is an aspect of racism here... after all this is a black man and that is insulting.

But... there is more to this. There is this problem with the RW in this country that believes our center right democratic party (where Rockefeller republicans went to by the way) is not legitimate. Yes, there is some to skin color but they did the same to Clinton and to a very small extent to Carter.

To these Radicals, let's use the correct language, any... read this again, ANY democrat in a position of elected political power is not legitimate. In fact. what you are seeing is the idea that anybody but themselves should not be elected... and the subtext is... democracy is the problem.

Combine this with a few religious fanatics...

Yes, I suspect we will default, this is about destroying the legitimacy of a party, a WHOLE party, they do not recognize has any rights.

The last time we were here the calendar read 1859... that should send shivers down anybody's back. If we went into a shooting civil war, and at this pont it is not illogical or unexpected to anybody who understands cycles... we are talking of at least 20 million dead... not out of the realm of possibility to speak of 50 to a 100 million dead. That is what civil wars look like, But what you are seeing in DC is not disaster capitalism... it is actually that much more dangerous.

And to anybody going (on either side) bring it on... read the numbers of casualties I posted. Yes, that means one of your relatives will die.

[midnight]

1. It seems difficult to talk sensibly with folks that find value in war, and poverty.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Alas you are trying to have a conversation with

people who are in the depth of ideological purity... where liberals should not exist.

In 1859 the conversation was about the right of states to allow or not allow slavery.

The parallels are just striking...

The whole issu between Colonel West and Congresswoman Debbie Wassermann Shultz has a parallel

Here

http://history1800s.about.com/od/abolitionmovement/a/sumnerbeaten.htm

That caning incident is eerliy similar. No, we did not see physical violence here, but we saw the same kind of verbal violence.

And no I refuse to use the Colonel's tittle for Congress... he does not deserve it and what he did was similar to that caning incident. Also she is A PARTY LEADER, She is not a lefty by any stretch but she is a democrat, and a woman... which brings all kinds of issues into the forefront.

[ieoeja]

7. Though most people have the 1859 conversation backwards.

The South dominated federal politics for decades. They pushed through numerous pro-slavery issues at the federal level. While their big push in 1859 was to expand slavery to the territories, they also openly proclaimed their intent to eliminate the northern ban on slavery.

For that matter, the Republicans took the stance in 1859 that the territories should be allowed to vote on the issue. It was the South that prevented this because they knew the overwhelming majority in most territories were anti-slavery. Again: the South was opposed to regional self-determination.

Only when they saw the writing on the wall during the 1860 election did they begin talking about "States Rights". Even then they *never* spoke about the right to keep slaves in the South. The conversation was usually about "personal property rights" in the North where the property in question was slaves. And increasingly about the right of secession.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Absolutely but we are at a very similar moment

for different, but similar reasons. After all this is a conversation, when you look at it, over states rights and property.

That never went away.

[AndyTiedye]

3. Bush1 Negotiated with the Iranians to Keep Our Hostages from Being Freed While Carter Was in Office

Yes, they did the same to Carter, offering arms to the Iranians to keep the hostages from being freed as long as Carter was in office. Bush1 led those negotiations.

They did it to JFK with extreme prejudice.

[LiberalLoner]

4. K&R but still only zero rec's....n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. This is not a popular view, that we are moving

towards a shooting civil war... or a total state, neither is exclusive, or contradictory.

But this is not a popular view.

[RadiationTherapy]

5. "democracy is the problem" This is major. This is why I expect fascism.

It's just a matter of who moves first.

[Johonny]

8. What I don't get is historically mixed congresses have been ineffective

yet somehow the media is shocked this mixed congress is totally ineffective. More funny is why this congress think it can somehow pass a BIG budget idea. Only thing worse is if they some how pass a BIG budget idea, because historically the big idea will suck.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. It's worst, this congress is completely disfuncional

We are past the divided government of normal times.