Here is a note on guns and firing at targets

[nadinbrzezinski]

the local gun range allows you to buy targets, the very generic ones, vanilla flavor, paper ones that anybody who has, I don't know, fired a gun nows and loves.

These are the targets.

This is the closest to a human shape by the way...



Now the range has very specific rules where they will NOT permit you to bring a target with a photo of a significant other, a politician or anything like that. In fact, that will get you banned from the range.

Yet politicians from the RIGHT side of the aisle are using targets with photos or names of their opponents? Then there is my favorite, YOUNG REPUBLICANS holding college events doing similar things.

Yet this is what our politicos on the right defend...

Think about it... and why the Range will not let you do that... in fact, I would not be too shocked if they;d call the cops for that.

Oh and for the record I am a terrible shot. I've been known to put a round in somebody's else's target.

[JuniperLea]

1. I didn't even approve of this one...

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. They'd ban you at that local range

even with that one.

[JuniperLea]

16. Yep...

And rightfully so.

I've never shot at anything more than a clay pigeon... I can't say I'm looking forward to shooting again at all. I may have to give that up... my heart just isn't in it.

[-..__...]

26. How about this one?

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. That might pass muster

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

2. I cringe even when I see those outlines

.... and thinking surely they could use something better for simple 'target practice'.

Oh well, I'm an old softie anyway.

[Statistical]

4. Far more effective for self defense drills.

Likely in any self defense situation you will be confronted with a human shaped silouette not a floating bullseye. Of course if we are ever invaded by bullseye shaped aliens well they are just fucked from day one.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

11. Run Mike (from Monsters Inc!)

Really really necessary?

I mean aren't we taught where the heart is (and it's slightly to the left in that picture) early in school?

And if I can hit a bullseye, shouldn't I be able to hit what I'm POINT at?

(And I'd probably go for head anyway........................ I aint that much of a softy!)

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. You should train to shoot at center of mass

if the head happens to be the center of mass go for it, But that target is center of mass.

(Oifta, this is coming from a bad shot medic)

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Not if your goal is to train people for self defense

that pesky psychology.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

13. Guess if you're training literalists you have a point.

But can't most people make the 'leap of logic'?

And shouldn't the red be over a bit to be over the physical location of the heart?

Why isn't the head marked?

Can't I be taught to maim in the legs in less threatening circumstances?

Does EVERYTHING have to be a KILL Shot?

(I mean being up here in the Northwest where the Seattle area cops shoot at anything moving and kill them.. They probably have it.. but for the general populace... REALLY?)

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. This comes from many years of psychology

why the army started using human shapes and not round targets. Once they started doing that the number of soldiers that actually fired their weapons at other humans went up. Train as you fight, fight as you train.

The old rule applies, if you are going to have a weapon and you are going to hesitate, don't.

Oh and yes, if you are in that situation, shoot to kill, trick shots are for the teevee machine.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

37. Have no problem with soldier training.. that IS their target.

Just wondering why Joe Blow down the street prefers the Human Form over a bullseye.

[Statistical]

44. Number one reason for purchasing firearms is ... self defense.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Depends on what Joe is doing

Self defense course... human target, olympic shooter, or competition shooter, usually they go for really small round targets. Snipers also use small targets as they may be called to shot small targets, aka heads... that is after a lot of human shapes too.

[Lurks Often]

18. If you want to go to jail

"Can't I be taught to maim in the legs in less threatening circumstances?

Does EVERYTHING have to be a KILL Shot?"

No!

While there MAY some exceptions at the local level, as a general rule legally, shooting someone is considered using lethal force, so if you were NOT justified in using lethal force, you are NOT justified in shooting to wound and will be charged with either attempted murder or aggravated assault depending on the prosecutor. Also legally you can be held responsible for a shot you fire, INCLUDING your misses if they happen to miss your intended target and hit someone else.

The generally accepted threshold for using lethal force is fear of death or grave bodily harm. In some states attempted arson of one's home is also acceptable use of force. It does vary from state to state.

Most all firearm schools that I am aware of that teach defensive shooting, teach shooting to stop the assault, which means hitting the target, in this case the aggressor, in the center of mass. Sometimes, but not all of the time, this results in the aggressor dying.

All of the schools that I am aware that teach defensive shooting, also teach classes to the military and law enforcement (local, state and federal) in addition to civilians.

On edit: My comments regarding use of force and the approximate threshold of when it can be used, applies to CIVILIANS ONLY!!! The military and law enforcement have different guidelines and the threshold tends to be lower. Also I AM NOT A LAWYER AND THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE!

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

35. Well, if I had a gun and a little drunk guy had a 4 inch knife..

.. and I had a few yards on him...

yes, I'd shoot for the legs first.

I didn't mean to say I'd go out hobbling folks just because I was their number one fan!
You dirty bird.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. That works fine in them movies

not in real life.

As a medic I once transported to the Trauma Center a guy who was plugged center of mass ten times. It helps in his survival that he was tweaked out of his mind... we did place him in physical restraints, as he was STILL fighting cops and EMS personnel.

Yes MAJOR structures were hit by the way. We were all impressed.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

42. WOW, amazing

Don't worry about 'them movies'... at least I DO turn on the lights when I enter a room... and IF I ever knock out someone after me, I won't go to the kitchen to make a sandwich! LOL!

Thanks for the chat!

[namahage]

40. If you had a few yards on him, and he wasn't carrying a firearm,

you'd be better served trying to increase that distance.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

41. Well, yeah, that goes to reason! LOL!

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. Don't shoot unless you have to.

If you have to, shoot the center of mass.

If you're aiming for the knees, lives weren't at stake. Tasers, mace and/or walking away are for less threatening circumstances.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

38. Again if my target is 'center of mass'.. why not a bullseye?

just sayin'............

[Statistical]

33. Nothing is a kill shot. Where did you learn about firearms? Action movies?

You shoot to stop. The most effective way to stop the target is center mass. In combat with adrenaline going, poor lighting conditions, and the target moving it likely that even aiming center mass most shots will miss. Also with handgun calibers it may take multiple shots to stop the target. Note: targeting eventually dying and target being stopped are two different things. If you shoot suspect, he closes and mortally stabs you and then dies 3 minutes later that shot wasn't a stopping shot.

Everything in your post is horrible. You shoot to stop. You don't "kill shot", or try to take out the legs, or shoot a pistol out of the hands. Forget everything you see on TV and movies.

More than 80% of gunshots are survivable. You shoot to stop the target. If he lives fine. If he dies well he shouldn't have put you in a situation where you needed to use lethal force.

If you DON'T need lethal force then by law you have no right to even draw on the target.


You shoot center mass to stop the threat. You continue to shoot until target is no longer a threat. No reason to make it more complicated than that.
Soldiers train that way.
Police train that way.
Special forces train that way.
SWAT trains that way.
FBI/CIA/NSA/Secret Service train that way.

Shoot to stop the threat. In combat your fine motor skills go to shit real quick. Your body slams so much adrenaline into your bloodstream it causes any movement to be amplified. Fine motor control is gone, vision narrows, sounds become muted. It is nothing like sitting on a firing line and plinking bullseyes. Trying what you posted here in combat/self defense scenario will likely get yourself kill or get you sued for everything you own or get you put in prison.

If you don't trust me read a book or training manual on combat pistol marskmanship. They all say the same thing.

Shoot to stop the threat. There is no reason to make it more complicated than that.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

34. Musta been.. I've never ever fired a gun or rifle.. just ol' BB gun

And I'm 55 and lived in the Deep South for about 39 years.

Whodathunkit?

So back to SHOOT TO STOP THE THREAT.

A bullseye would suffice since it's the 'largest area' and shoot for the middle.
So back to square one.. why is human figure necessary? <LOL>

Actually I don't care.. Like I said, I never shot a gun, don't plan on it.. so really only have the 'cringe feeling' when I see it in an 'Action Movie'. All is well.. and I'm glad I don't fixate on Shoot to Stop the Threat.

[Statistical]

43. The reason for the human shape is psychology.

Army does a lot of psyc testing. They found that by training with bullseyes soldier tended to hesitate first time in combat. They would also shoot worse on the range when firing against human shaped targets then they did on bullseye course. While some of that is unavoidable training with human silhouette breaks that mental barrier and reduces hesitation. This is why everyone Police, military, self defense courses use human silhouette.

Simple concept is: Train as you fight. Fight as you train. The goal of any training is to replicate the target scenario as accurately as possible. If the targets are human shaped, shoot as human shaped targets.

Now that isn't to say you can't EVER shoot bullseyes. I shoot them all the time because they are cheaper and smaller. Bullseyes are good for improving accuracy but one doesn't want to ONLY train on those if you goal is self defense skills. The goal is to get any self defense action down to muscle memory. This is why military drills over and over and over and over. So when the times comes it is a reaction to a threat. BANG-BANG-BANG. Target down. BANG-BANG-BANG. Ammo out. Drop mag, new mag, bolt release, continue firing.

[derby378]

3. It's not that much different from the Hogan's Alley scenario

I certainly understand that aiming a gun at a human-shaped target can make you uncomfortable (and I do prefer regular marksmanship targets, myself), but just think what a cop goes through when he has to run that gauntlet during a training exercise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Gun ranges at the academy do have actual photos

for obvious training reasons.

[Dappleganger]

5. There are some ranges locally who do allow pictures of other people.

Not the one we frequent, but there are some who do. From what I understand it's not allowed for day folks only yearly members, and it's been said that law enforcement people engage in it too. It's sick, sick stuff--we're in NE FL.

[spin]

6. The range I shot at gave you a bullseye target ...

But you could bring your own targets and buy silhouette targets like the one of the OP.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. They got those too for sale

You buy the ammo, buy the targets, and if you don't have them they provide eyes and ears, which are mandatory. The range gets really loud, so...

[spin]

15. I prefer the bullseye target ...

I place my sights just below the black at the 6 o'clock position where they are clearly visible as illustrated by the proper sight picture below.



I do use the silhouette targets when practicing self defensive shooting, but I use the smaller version. If you hit the black on the smaller target you are in the "kill zone" of the larger target.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. I need to go to the range

I am such a lousy shot!

I think my ten years of EMS still get in the way. I KNOW what those things do for real! They are small, cute. lovely, but damn...

Hubby just laughs... He is an extremely good shot and since he got them. well I need to know how to use them!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. A key point is that everyone in the household should know how to operate all weapons

if nothing else to clear and secure them. Basic safety precaution.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Absolutely

[spin]

32. I would suggest that you practice shooting with a .22 cal firearm for a while ...

if you are using handguns a Ruger target model is a great choice. These Ruger Target pistols are amazingly accurate and have hardly any recoil (which makes learning proper sight alignment far easier). The ammo is cheap and you can practice a lot for the cost of a box of bullets for a large caliber handgun. Sometimes your hubby is not your best trainer. See if you can find some other good shooters to watch you shoot and give hints and advice.

It's been my experience that women learn how to shoot quicker than men and often become far better shots.


Ruger Mark III competition

http://www.ruger.com/products/markIIICompetition/models.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Might have to rent a 22, no way I am buying another one

[spin]

48. I had shot firearms for a year or two when I decided that shooting looked like a good hobby ...

At the time I had a Ruger .357 magnum single action western revolver similar to the one in the picture. I had bought this firearm for home defense but I was a mediocre shot with it at the best.



So I decided to trade this firearm in on a .22 Ruger target pistol like the one I recommended. I went to the range on a regular basis and finally my groups began to improve. After a year or so I bought another Ruger .357 revolver and I was surprised at how well I could shoot it.

So target shooting became my hobby which I enjoyed with my wife and daughter through the years. I never shot competitively, I just competed against myself. I met a lot of interesting people while shooting and made some good friendships. Many people stereotype shooters as illiterate rednecks but I found shooters to be a very diverse group of people from many professions and many were college graduates and worked as doctors, lawyers, teachers or engineers.

[timo]

29. shoot smaller

shoot smarter, when we hit the range we use little targets we print of targetz.com for JUST that reason!!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. In real life you never shoot at a bad guy wearing black with an orange patch

over their heart. Some ranges have pre-printed photo like targets for realistic training, some with two images (hostage and bad guy). Few places allow roll your own kind of things.

This site has a tremendous amount of photo targets; http://www.letargets.com/ some may be considered objectionable

The training I do tends to be small groups and basic familiarity, so I start with large bullseye and move to generic silhouettes (no rings or highlighted area)

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. In real life the reason you use the silluette

is for psychological reasons.

Same reason why the army uses these?



Spec Ops will use more realistic targets by the way... specialized training and all

Cops at academies will use more specialized targets as well.

[madrchsod]

22. we used cans and bottles....

it was a great accomplishment if i hit the can or bottle. i had better luck with a shotgun

[-..__...]

24. Where's your racial sensitivity?

Don't you know blue is the new black?...

Police Target Practice Aims For Sensitivity
By MICHAEL SASSo
Published: Jan 23, 2006

TAMPA - In recent years, Florida law enforcement agencies have been pondering an unusual question of political correctness: If your officers fire at targets that are black in color, is the agency sending a racist message?

Not wanting to take any chances, the Tampa and St. Petersburg police departments, among other law enforcement agencies, have switched to more colorful targets.

"It never was a big issue or a big debate," said Tampa police spokeswoman Laura McElroy, whose agency switched to blue silhouette targets from black ones two years ago. "Nowadays, you can never be too sensitive, and we felt that it was the right direction to go."

Traditionally, the target at government and private gun ranges has been a black silhouette of a human form. Black silhouettes aren't meant to represent any race, and they tend to cost less than colorful targets.

However, in recent years, two companies that sell targets to gun ranges have noticed a change in orders from Florida law enforcement agencies.

In every other state, black targets outsell blue, orange and other colors, said Guy Wynn, general manager of National Target Co. of Frederick, Md.

But in Florida, the blue targets outsell the black, he said.

"Florida's where it all started," Wynn said. "They wanted to know if we could do it in blue. Other states do it, too, but it seemed to start in Florida."

L.E.T., short for Law Enforcement Targets, of St. Paul, Minn., has noticed the same phenomenon. Blue and green silhouettes have started catching on nationwide, said Jeff Brown, the company's marketing director.

:eyes:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/archive/index.php/t-689297.html

[Fla_Democrat]

25. Never shot at a hostage target?

http://www.amazon.com/Law-Enforcement-50-pack-Hostage-Targets/dp/B0002558DC


I guess it's all about what situations you will find yourself in. :shrug:


Then again, if you are placing rounds in someone else's target, maybe you should avoid them. :evilgrin:






:smoke:

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. I was the medic that went into a rescue once

never volunteer yourself. My job was purely medical. The medic was out with the flu....

So I just went in, and did exactly what I was told. All the treatment I had to do was carry the hostage out, a four year old....

And my nerves... good think I don't drink.

Talk about the shakes after that.

[timo]

31. I will admit the guilty pleasure

I have some zombie targets that me and the kids shoot at :) nazi zombies always seem to be a little more fun to shoot at!!

[Last_Stand]

46. "I just got a mission that I can't turn down...

Killin' Nazi zombies in a German town..."
------Monster Magnet

[timo]

47. sorry not familiar with that one

http://zombieammo.com/zombiepress/zombie_targets/