To advocate raising the Medicare age is to advocate mass murder, period

[eridani]

We already have 44K die every year because they can't afford health care. If a foreign country were responsible for killing that many Americans every year, it would long since have been turned into a molten radioactive puddle.

People over 60 are already faced with outrageous health care costs that force them to postpone needed care. Trying to hang on until age 65 is bad enough. Suggesting a wait until age 67 is completely beyond the pale.

"Now, I realize there are some in my party who don’t think we should make any changes at all to Medicare and Medicaid, and I understand their concerns"

No you don't, sir, and you are flat out wrong besides. There are some in your party who don't want goddamned fucking CUTS!! CHANGES like raising the FICA cap are fine. CHANGES like having the government do bulk price negotiations for Medicare drugs is fine

[msongs]

1. screwing america in the name of corporate profits, congress and the white house in action nt

[indepat]

19. The CBO should also score the number of projected deaths as a result of each

piece of proposed legislation. Americans need to come to grips with the fact that the perpetrators of such legislation and law care not a whit how many will die by gutting social security, Medicare, and Medicaid so the uber-wealthy and large corporations can continue to suck furtively at the public welfare teat. :patriot:

[elehhhhna]

25. and bankruptcies, and foreclosures, and

suicides


the cost will be very, very high

[indepat]

37. But a price the perpetrators are gleefully willing to pay

:patriot:

[tblue]

2. My dear eridani...

[itsnotaboutu]

44. tblue

That baby pic is so dang cute it really made my day:bounce: :applause:

[lame54]

73. Baby power

[bluestateguy]

3. And it would save little to no money

You would have more people going on SSI disability when their bodies give out in their mid-60.

[aquart]

4. OR they could tax the rich.

[Enthusiast]

10. And stop the wars. nt

[dkf]

5. The entire health care system is a mess.

Medicare is just one leg of it.

[ErikJ]

6. Republicon Party Platform

Republicon Party Platform:::::::::::::::::
Abolish Social Security,........... Abolish Medicare,.............. Abolish Minimum wage,............. Abolish unions,................., Abolish taxes on the billionaires,................. Move all jobs over seas,........................ Abolish Child labor laws,................ Abolish Clean air and water,...................... Abolish food inspections.................. ABOLISH AMERICAN MIDDLE CLASS

[eridani]

7. +1000 n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

30. What needs to be abolished is RepubliCONs and their HATEFUL agenda/policies.

VOTE THE SOBs OUT!

[Bluebear]

8. He understands alright.

He just doesn't care.

[SammyWinstonJack]

31. Exactly! This will in no way (a)effect him or his...so why should be give a rat'$ a$$.

Pretty callous, imo.

[Enthusiast]

9. And not one word

about outspending the entire combined world on the MIC.

[woo me with science]

11. Amoral corporate shills.

The poor, elderly, and disabled do not produce enough to please these greedy thieves and warmongers. They are not profitable like the bloody wars.

Call, write, and protest. Do not allow this bipartisan attack on human beings, our family and friends and neighbors, and ourselves.

And challenge anyone who tries to defend, justify, paper over, or deflect from this evil.

[L0oniX]

12. I'm going to go into business ...picking up dead old people in the streets.

[WinkyDink]

35. "Bring out yer dead!"

[Divernan]

48. "But I ain't dead yet!" "Shut up, you soon will be!"

[RagAss]

13. Agreed !

[Bluenorthwest]

14. Hey the average life expectancy for African American men is

70.9 so 67 gets them covered a full 3 almost 4 years before the dirt covers them forever. White women have expectancy in the 80's. Not that this plan is racist or anything.

[Recursion]

72. But the life expectancy of an African American man at 65 is not 70.9; it's much higher

The lower life expectancy is because more African American men die when they're young.

[JoePhilly]

15. Good thing one of the current GOP candidates isn't President ... they all support

Ryan's bill which would kill it.

Each has said that if that bill reached their desk, they'd sign it.

[cali]

16. Mass Death, yes. Mass Murder, no. Murder has a specific definition.

Words frickin' matter.

[Hawkowl]

28. Mass Manslaughter then

Where the people killed are killed by an act that has foreseeable consequences, and said act could have been prevented. Feel better?

[Recursion]

68. What about people who die by physician error or hospital acquired infection on Medicare?

Do they balance out some of the manslaughters from raising the benefit age?

[Hawkowl]

75. Already included?

Wouldn't these people have died anyways without medical treatment? Medical treatment doesn't guarantee survival for 100% of patients, but not being a patient guarantees close to a 100% earlier death date. No?

[Recursion]

76. No

It is not the case that everyone who dies from a doctor or hospital error would have died at that time without treatment, not remotely. People go in for non-life-threatening conditions and die. It's kind of a silly point, but I think it's no sillier than calling an increase to the Medicare age "mass murder"

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SmileyRose]

18. It will force group insurance to cover their people longer

The problem is Obama and everyone else is thinking inside the wrong box IMHO. Moving the expense to the private sector may save taxpayers some cash, but it does nothing to make obtaining medical care cheaper overall. Instead of shifting some of the burden of delivering medical care for the most expensive back to the private sector, we should be moving medical care delivery of the least expensive into the Medicare system.

[Faryn Balyncd]

20. No Republican could EVER get away with doing such a thing.... because

if a Republican were to attempt it, there would actually be a major party in America that would unite with the American people.... and give the American people a principled party they could unite with to defeat such an insane Republican assault on American values.

Having a "Democrat" do it is the only way the corporatists can hope to succeed.

[Dragonfli]

53. I have been saying that as well, it is the part about "We must elect a Democrat no matter how

much he is advocating and working toward Republican goals" that no one dare talk about.

If a Republican wins and tries this shit we will be united as Democrats against it (with the exception of faux Dems like Bauccus and Obama), if someone claiming to be a Democrat does it, at least 60% of the party will support it because of the football team approach to winning that has replaced sane comparison and voting for, or against, the actual policies. Very little that Obama supports can be said to be anything other than Heritage Foundation right wing policy.

I believe that is why so many third way Republicans infiltrated our party and started their pretense, there is more to it than just what they have to support to "win" a red district for the "greater party good".

[DirkGently]

21. We spare no expense in killing people overseas, but "just can't afford" saving them here.

[suffragette]

22. I could not agree with you more completely

K&R

[blindpig]

23. Class based mass murder. k&r

[area51]

24. +1

It's an acceleration of the culling of the population. Why do you think that we're the only so-called first-world country without the right to health care? It's because there are so many of us, it doesn't matter if as many as 100,000 people per year are allowed to die.

Each day, 273 people die due to lack of health care in the U.S.; that's 100,000 deaths per year. This is not only a moral issue, but a national security issue that we're so vulnerable given that our health care delivery system is so fragmented and dysfunctional.

We need single-payer health care, not a welfare bailout for the serial-killer insurance agencies.

We don't need the GingrichCare of mandated, unregulated, for-profit insurance that is still too expensive, only pays parts of medical bills, denies claims, bankrupts and kills people.

Republinazi '93 plan:

"Subtitle F: Universal Coverage - Requires each citizen or lawful permanent resident to be covered under a qualified health plan or equivalent health care program by January 1, 2005."

"We will never have real reform until people's health stops being treated as a financial opportunity for corporations."

"Employer-based health insurance has always been a bad idea. Your life should not depend on who you work for." -- T. McKeon

"Any proposal that sticks with our current dependence on for-profit private insurers ... will not be sustainable. And the new law will not get us to universal coverage ...." -- T.R. Reid, The Healing of America

"Despite the present hyperbole by its supporters, this latest effort will end up as just another failed reform effort littering the landscape of the last century." --John Geyman, M.D., Hijacked! The Road to Single Payer in the Aftermath of Stolen Health Care Reform

[davidthegnome]

26. I'm not sure why we ever expected any different

You know, as someone who campaigned for the President long before he became President, I could say he pulled the wool over my eyes. That I was blinded by his charisma and the hopes that he would be the shining light I felt our Country needed. In reality... I was so eager for a leader, a hero to get behind that I threw everything I had at the first candidate I thought was worthy. Without due diligence, I got into shouting matches with Clinton supporters, republicans, democrats who were more liberal than I was and saw him as a wolf in sheep's clothing.

The reality though, is that our political situation has been controlled by money for far longer than I've been alive. Generally, money equals power and among the powerful the golden rule is simply that those with the gold make the rules.

Obama isn't a bad man - he is simply a very cautious diplomat at a time when what we need is a raging progressive ass kicker. We have not begun to undo the damage of the Bush administration, or prior administrations. War, climate change, taxes and tax breaks, corporate monopolies and corporate power remain much in the same position, except perhaps for being somewhat worse.

Personally, I've reached the conclusion that I can't put my faith in a system that is so hopelessly corrupt that trying to accomplish something decent and/or progressive is like trying to punch your way through a steel door. So it is instead the average American - and myself, that I must look to for inspiration and hope. The fact of the matter is that we built this system, we can build a better one... but it has to start from the bottom, not the top.

All I'm suggesting, is that we need to be the change we hope for. The principles of the left will likely keep me voting democrat and (dare I say it?) liberal until the end of my days. I have lost faith in politicians though. What will keep me going to the booth is the fact that I understand the views of the right well enough to know how dangerous they are. When one of the front runners for their Presidential nomination is a man who wants to help take over the government to prepare the world for the rapture.... and when that man is taken seriously?

It is a choice between mediocre or outright insanity. I'll go with mediocre.

[Cleita]

27. We should be lowering it to 55, not raising it and

in my perfect world everyone would be covered by Medicare from conception to death.

[Bluebear]

80. +++++

[Recursion]

29. Yes, it's exactly mass murder

There is not remotely any hyperbole there :eyes:

[Dragonfli]

55. Please define an action or inaction that results in the death of thousands, a parking violation? /n

[Recursion]

67. Any action could be said to result in the death of thousands

Literally anything you do. There's nothing particularly magical about the age of 65; you might as well say we're killing millions by not having it at 64. Then again there are people who would die if it were set to 64 that wouldn't have died if it were kept at 65. Actually, given how healthy most people are at 65 and how many people die from hospital care itself, lowering the Medicare age would probably "kill" more people than it "saves".

[Dragonfli]

69. You have got to be kidding me.../nt

[Recursion]

71. Over a million iatrogenic deaths a year, I am definitely not kidding you

I find this whole thread absurd, so I don't see why pointing out the risks people take when they seek medical care makes it any more absurd.

[Dragonfli]

77. You really believe that the elderly are "healthy" and more would die from health care than illness?

Again - really? What a cold and callous man you are, possessed of neither compassion nor intelligence to believe such things.

You are correct about one thing, many people are sentenced to death by illness NOW because they happen to be 64 (a difficult age to obtain and afford the insurance protection racket) and yet unable to receive medicare. I think that is also a crime, unlike you who appear to consider it a reason to purposefully allow the same fate for 65 and 66 year olds.

All that comes to mind is

Really? My Goddess what an insensitive and cruel lot we have become to produce creatures like you from the loins of our sick society.

[Recursion]

78. 64 year olds do not die at a higher rate than 65 year olds

And they don't die at a particularly lower rate than 65 year olds either. And, yes, people who make it into their mid-60s are generally in good health in this country, and it's not callous to point that out. Now, every year we increase the Medicare eligibility age removes healthy people from the pool, which is an actuarial problem, but no, it's just not mass murder.

My point with iatrogenic deaths is that anything we do will lead to a large number of people dying who otherwise might not have.

[on point]

32. Non negotiable line in the sand. Now if you want to have Medicare for all we can talk...

[krabigirl]

33. everyone should be covered, if they so wish. why not this instead of endless war?

I agree with your post. It is mass murder. but they do not care.

[sarcasmo]

34. Ronnie Raygun 2.0 ready to raise the age.

[Jim_Shorts]

36. Its beyond maddening

Since our bought and paid for politicians decided we couldn't afford healhcare reform, now we must go in the opposite direction and cut medicare?

The rest of the civilized world on average enacted some type of universal healthcare 40 years ago and again on average they are paying 1/2 what we are. We are being penalized because they can't or won't do their damn job.

[Divine Discontent]

38. raise the damned taxes on the wealthy. your post is basically bringing to the forefront the

argument that my conservative co-workers say is 'death panels', and if they raise the age, I can understand the argument!


http://www.zazzle.com/republicans_2012_keeping_millions_out_of_work_bumper_sticker-128002960205017719

[Honeycombe8]

39. We need to REMOVE the provision that prohibits us from negotiating Rx drug prices FIRST!

Before raising the eligibility age or anything else, we should REMOVE the provision that PROHIBITS the govt from negotiating drug prices for Medicare patients! Period!

Obama talked about this during his campaign, if I remember right. And then he hasn't mentioned it since. Why? Because he struck some sort of deal with big pharma, when working on his healthcare reform act. A deal, I'm sure, which included NOT removing that provision.

[Safetykitten]

40. Correct.

[kestrel91316]

41. Mass murder doesn't quite fit. Genocide fits.

Targeted killing of a specific sector of the Little People, those older folks who aren't wealthy enough to self-insure or purchase Medicare-level private insurance.

Well, Leona did tell us only the Little People pay taxes. She forgot to mention that they also were the only ones expected to DIE to keep the 2%ers from having to experience any diminishment in their hyperconsumptive, bloated, over-entitled lifestyles.

[KansDem]

42. A "death panel?"

Isn't this the kind of thing the manufactured TeaBagger protests railed against?

[OwnedByFerrets]

43. Agreed, but getting rid of the flax is what the rich want

[MissDeeds]

45. Huge K&R!!!

:kick:

[Yavapai]

46. I cannot write here what I feel about this.

My wife is 64 and counting the months until she qualifies for medicare. She has a couple
pre-existing problems that insurance companies wouldn't cover. We were paying just a little
over $800 a month for almost nothing.

We both had coverage under Aetna until they raised the price to over $1500 a month with
me on Medicare. The last raise was obscene and we just couldn't afford it anymore. We also had
to drive 600 miles round trip to use it as it would have doubled after we moved out of
California.

She is in constant pain due to nerve damage (stenosis)and we have been waiting until the end of
March for her to to be eligible for medicare. I know just what people are thinking about them possibly
raising the age for eligibility. If this cut in Medicare happens and it costs her life, well I
just can't talk about what will happen, but I bet a lot of you can guess.

[Major Hogwash]

47. Completely unsubstantiated fearmongering.

Right here at the DU.

[Divernan]

49. DO NOT JOIN THE NATIONAL GUARD, KIDS! NOT WITH ALL THE ONGOING WARS!

Why did I post this? Because as I came to the end of reading the thread, the last post - the one with the rotating ads, was for joining the national guard.

What next, DU? Maybe Halliburton/Black Water will pay you to advertise for mercenaries.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cobalt Violet]

52. Knowing you'll be one of them really sucks.

Feeling helpless to change the course of this.

[moondust]

54. Psychopaths are giddy.

More sickness and death, lower taxes! :woohoo:

[McCamy Taylor]

56. Now, this one is true.

[totodeinhere]

57. Has Obama actually advocated raising the Medicare age, or is that just a rumor?

If he hasn't advocated it yet I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

But what someone said in this thread is interesting. They said that no Republican could ever get away with this, but maybe Obama can because he has a "D" after his name. So I guess a good conspiracy theory would be that the people with the real power in this country let Obama get elected so that he could dismantle social programs that Republican never could. I'm not saying I believe that but it is an interesting theory.

[eridani]

59. Yes, he has. It has been amply documented on this forum n/t

[totodeinhere]

60. Could you please post a link that quotes him specifically saying that?

Thanks.

[eridani]

62. One of many--

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/2011-07-13-obama-plan-raise-medicare-age_n.htm

A White House offer to increase the age of Medicare eligibility to 67 as a compromise to Republicans during budget talks would save about $125 billion over 10 years, records show, but such a move could leave many seniors without care if last year's health care law were repealed.

As President Obama worked with Republican leaders to make an Aug. 2 deadline for raising the nation's borrowing limit, Obama proposed raising the age of eligibility incrementally through 2036, according to a briefing document prepared by House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, R-Va.

Raising the eligibility age from 65 to 67 would save $124.8 billion by 2021, according to a March report by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO). Such a move would track the increase in the age at which individuals would become eligible for Social Security.

[totodeinhere]

64. Thank you. But it says "according to a briefing document prepared by House Majority Leader Eric

Cantor." I don't trust anything coming from that jerk. What I am looking for is a statement from Obama himself proposing or supporting raising the age to 67, not a briefing document from Cantor of all people.

[eridani]

65. All Obama has to do to spike reports about what he said in negotiations--

--is to repudiate them.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/11/obama-medicare-eligibility-age_n_894833.html

According to five separate sources with knowledge of negotiations -- including both Republicans and Democrats -- the president offered an increase in the eligibility age for Medicare, from 65 to 67, in exchange for Republican movement on increasing tax revenues.

[Bluebear]

66. "According to five separate sources with knowledge of negotiations"

WASHINGTON -- In his press conference on Monday morning, President Barack Obama repeatedly insisted that he was willing to tackle some sacred cows as part of a larger package to raise the debt ceiling. Just how sacred, however, may surprise political observers.

According to five separate sources with knowledge of negotiations -- including both Republicans and Democrats -- the president offered an increase in the eligibility age for Medicare, from 65 to 67, in exchange for Republican movement on increasing tax revenues.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/11/obama-medicare-eligibility-age_n_894833.html

[totodeinhere]

74. Thank you. That information is troubling for sure. But before I am

100% convinced I would need to hear it from Obama's lips rather than from anonymous sources quoted in Huff Post. Since HP was bought out by AOL and joined the corporate crowd I don't trust it anymore.

[eridani]

58. Take action now! Get your weekly talking points at the link below

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=106x34938

[Lorien]

63. Whatever happened to the DU activist corps? Remember when we were emailed

action items? That needs to happen again. We have been too passive!

[Lorien]

61. K & R! nt

[inna]

70. damn right. thank you, Eridani, you're one of my favorite posters, btw. nt

[Bluebear]

79. Mine too

:thumbsup: