What is your take on Michael Vick?

[Still a Democrat]

NFL Pro Bowl Voting: Michael Vick Still Leads

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/12/15/nfl-pro-bowl-voting-mike-vick-still-leads-matt-ryan-cracks-top/?ncid=txtlnkusspor00000002&xid=si_nfl


Is this a great story of rehabilitation and turning around your life? Or do you resent the way he's been able to resume his life and feel he didn't pay a high enough price?

[KansasVoter]

1. He paid his dues, prison for dog fighting when many white collar criminals.....

get probation. He seems like a better person now.

People need to get off his back.

[ET Awful]

11. You forgot dog torturing, dog maiming and dog killing by electrocution, drowning, beating, etc. n/t

[KansasVoter]

14. And he went to prison. Paid his Dues. And learned his lesson.

[ET Awful]

15. Sorry, but that isn't quite enough after torturing, maiming and killing.

Hell if George Bush and Dick Cheney had done it, you'd want them to rot under the prison.

Being a football player doesn't excuse torture of anything.

Little hint: If he's still saying "it's the way I was brought up" and "If I hadn't gotten caught, I'd probably still be doing it" , he hasn't learned a thing.

[chimpymustgo]

22. Must feel great to be God. Or maybe not, if to err is human, to forgive, divine.

-edit-

Vick spends virtually every Tuesday (the off day for NFL players) visiting either a school or a charitable organization, but there are those who believe his attempts to rehabilitate his image are mainly acts designed to fulfill the public-service requirements set forth by the NFL and the Eagles when he joined the team last year.

"Image covers a lot of things," Reid said earlier this week. "There can be an acting part to an image, but I don't think you're seeing any acting here. He's been doing things in the community just about every Tuesday, and any other time that he can get off to do charity work, he's been doing so.

"He understands that he made a huge mistake and the only way that you can right that wrong is by giving back, changing and helping others not make the same mistakes. I think he's learned from his mistakes and he's a better person for it."

-edit-

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/sports/article_f5d4b879-da62-559b-a2c7-1b50ce317592.html

[ET Awful]

40. Count me among those who say his attempts are designed to fulfill the

public-service requirements.

Some crimes I don't forgive. Torturing, maiming and killing innocent creatures are among those.

[blondeatlast]

56. Me as well. endorsement money is on the line--there's no heart in his actions. nt

[11 Bravo]

119. I count you among those who don't have a fucking clue what Vick thinks today.

And my rescue lab is sitting beside me with her head in my lap as I type this.

[ET Awful]

121. Oddly, my rescue Pit farted as I read your post.

I really don't give a rat's ass what Vick thinks today.

What he did is unforgivable. And the way people fawn over him is nauseating.

He's a worthless excuse for a human being.

BTW - Most infantry folks I served with wouldn't forgive a man who'd torture and kill a defenseless animal. I'd think you'd set higher standards for those you chose to defend and idolize. . .

[11 Bravo]

123. Ah yes, the Vick fanatic's standard bullshit.

I neither fawn over nor idolize Michael Vick. I don't even like the sonuvabitch, and I can't stand the fucking Philadelphia Eagles. I just believe that after serving his sentence, he has the right to make a living. Don't let that stop you from spewing your silly crap, though.
(And I served with grunts who would shoot a water buffalo for shits and giggles, and those who would share their last C-rat with a mangy dog in some godforsaken ville. I count myself among the latter, and your lame-ass attempt to generalize is comical at best.)

[ET Awful]

125. Mmmmhmmmm.

Your petty attempt at insults is amusing.

Vick's willingness to torture and kill defenseless animals is not.

And the people I served with (and that served under me) would have at the least received an Article 15 for shooting a water buffalo "for shits and giggles". We didn't take wasting ammunition and drawing attention to our position lightly.

Then again, we actually had discipline.

Something Vick (and apparently you) lack.

Little clue for you: I'm not a Vick fanatic in any way shape or form, I'm an animal abuse "fanatic" (if you really want to use that term). I don't forget or forgive abuse of innocents, be they animal or human.

[11 Bravo]

126. Ooooh, an Ossifer! In that case, YES SIR! YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, SIR!

(I close my eyes and envision a clueless butter bar who needs his platoon sergeant to read a map for him, but I could be wrong.)
"We didn't take wasting ammunition lightly" may be the funniest fucking thing I've ever read. Ever hear of a Mad Minute? They were kind of a staple in the A Shau. And as for "giving away your position", I'm not sure what theater you may have served in, but on occasion you might have seen a big green thing overhead. It probably had a main rotor and a tail rotor, and it made a really loud whop, whop, whop sound. We called them "helicopters", and their positions were pretty easy to spot. I have sat next to a door gunner who did exactly what I described. I personally thought he was an asshole, but an Article 15? Sounds like a bunch of REMF bullshit to me. Of course, I was just a 20 year old corporal, while you were probably getting the real skinny from Westy himself.
By the way, I had enough discipline to pick up a few bits of tin from a grateful nation. Maybe we can get together sometime and bump DD-214s, Your Grace.

[ET Awful]

127. BLABLABLABLABLA

Nope, not an officer, just a well disciplined soldier instead of a shitheel that liked to spew bullshit.

In my experience, the people that talk shit about "my door gunner" and being in the A Shau usually didn't get much further than an induction center.

But you can keep talking shit all you like. It doesn't further your cause at all.

Soldiers with real combat experience typically don't brag about medals and such either. But you knew that didn't you. :)

[11 Bravo]

128. Snappy comeback. Especially the bit about "in your experience" ...

an experience I'll wager extends exactly as far as your keyboard. And I didn't say "my door gunner", I said "a door gunner", I was just a passenger. But (assuming you can read) you knew that, didn't you. :)
I've posted about the A Shau before, REMF. Lam Son 719, Texas Star ... "In your experience", what would you like to know about it? Like I said, let's bump DD-214s some time (now that I think about it, you may have to Google that).
I'll take my leave of you now, you well-disciplined hero. You probably need to get back to playing Call of Duty anyway. :)

[ET Awful]

129. LMAO . . . I'll say it again . . . blablablablabla

Sorry buddy, you don't impress me in the least.

REMF? I don't think so. 11H-E9 here buddy, mechanized infantry TOW Gunner, then TC. In an armored battlefield at the time I served, we had the shortest life expectancy and the highest risk job.

You can keep blowing off steam as long as you like, but you and I both know how much BS you're spewing.

[blueamy66]

45. All of that is probably

a stipulation of his probation.

He's still an asshole.

[Kalyke]

104. Hurting those who are under your care isn't forgivable.

Period.

I couldn't forgive myself if I purposely harmed an animal.

I once stepped on a running mouse's head and killed it. I STILL feel guilty. I wasn't trying to step on it. It darted and I jumped. SHIT. It still hurts that I did that.

This dude is a freak.

[TBF]

16. What is your evidence that he "seems like a better person now"?

Please. He brutally murdered several animals. That he is still alive is annoying to me.

[KansasVoter]

24. wow, the punishment = the crime in this case. Care more for people and less for animals.

[TBF]

28. Animals are defenseless - and how dare you tell me who to care for. nt

[chimpymustgo]

90. How dare you declare what is in Michael Vick's heart?

[hlthe2b]

30. Wow.. what an attitude....

not to mention the intense condescension and arrogance inherent in telling the entire DU community how to think.

Most of us are able to care about both people and innocent animals. It is not an either/or situation. Fortunately most people develop the maturity to realize this.

[Cetacea]

39. Prosecute dolphin/whale killers as murderers

In the case of Vick, he should have received a much stiffer penalty. All animal abuse crimes should be felonies.

[Kalyke]

107. Is that a dolphin brain on the right?

My son keeps telling me dolphins are smarter than humans and I tell him that I tend to agree with him.

[Kalyke]

106. In my experience, most animals are better than most humans.

[H2O Man]

42. A kid that

went to school with my sons hung out with Michael Vick in training camp. That "kid" (now a man) has told me quite a bit about Vick's character.

What is your evidence that he isn't a better person now?

[hlthe2b]

46. what did your son's friend have to say?

After reading the letter from the Best Friends Foundation (the one that actually dealt with Vick's debacle, saving and rehabilitating as many of his victims as possible) that he had NEVER gotten in touch with them to provide financial assistance or to even inquire about the dogs, I realized that Vick's rehabilitation is BS. AHS is obviously concerned with its own finances and thus a willing compliant partner to Vick's pretense of rehabilitation. When he actually does something to try to make a difference to the actual animals he maimed and killed, I will consider him having taken some steps towards rehabilitation. Lecturing school children about the bad deeds OTHERS do vis-a-vis animal fighting is not taking personal responsibility for his OWN horrendous actions. Yes, I think he should still be in jail, but I am curious what evidence you have from your son's friends statements that we are all misreading him and that he is not the callous, cruel, selfish, manipulative, sociopathic animal killer that we've been led to believe.

Sorry, H20. You are one here I have a lot of respect for. But, defending this monster, is just something I can't fathom.

[H2O Man]

51. He didn't know

Vick before the issues with the dogs. But he is definitely not the type of young man who overlooks such terrible behavior. He was surprised to find out that Vick is a good man, who sincerely regrets the horrible things that he did.

[hlthe2b]

53. I wish I could believe that. I really do.

[H2O Man]

85. Before I heard

from this young man, I had a very, very low opinion of Michael Vick. I have a strong dislike for people who abuse/kill other people or animals.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 speaks to the foolish belief that humans are of superior value to other animals. In my culture, for example, dogs are recognized as "Dog People." This summer, two of my little nephews were visiting our home, and the older one -- about 7 years old -- killed a frog at my pond. I explained to him that this is unacceptable, that the pond is the home of the Frog People. This concept confused him. His father (my wife's brother) is a right-wing banker, who fancies himself as a christian, though I doubt he has read Ecclesiastes. I didn't blame the little boy for his cruelty; his parents have not taught him right.

Michael Vick was not a little kid, when he tortured those dogs. And I do not care if he was raised in a sub-culture that enjoys torturing animals. He was 100% responsible for his brutal, inhumanr behaviors.

Yet another aspect of my culture is that even very bad people can change. That change requires conscious thinking, for one cannot possible advance their level of consciousness, unconsciously. The things that I learned about Vick were things that he spoke about when he was not under the spotlight of media attention. Anyone can lie in front of a camera: even a creep like Richard Nixon did. But I am convinced now that Michael Vick has made the conscious effort to change.

[hlthe2b]

86. Thank you for that reply...

Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 speaks to the foolish belief that humans are of superior value to other animals.
Yes, indeed. How I wish others could recognize the foolishness of this belief.

And, yes, you are right that people can change. As I said, I would really like to think he has and is not just saying the right things for the benefit of others or for his personal benefit. I take your impressions to heart on that score. I also realize that it is his children who are really losing out by not being able to share the incredible experience of a pet, especially a dog's unconditional love and affection. Yet, I still could not reconcile having Michael Vick in that house with that dog unsupervised anymore than I could trust a child abuser (not specifically a pedophile, but any abuser of children) to be alone with that child. In my opinion, Vick has received a very wide margin of acceptance and forgiveness from the public. Not being allowed unfettered access to that which he so horrifically abused does not seem an undue sacrifice.

[H2O Man]

87. This is a bit

off the OP's topic, but our conversation here reminded me of something that you might find interesting and disturbing. It has to do with the controversy in the upstate NY town of Sidney. I've wrote a few OPs about how the Town Supervisor was trying to force a Sufi settlement to remove the graves of Islamic people from their cemetery. (Keith Olbermann and others had reported on this.)

Last week, friend Helen O'Neill, a senior writer for AP, published a lengthy story about this controversy. It was in newspapers around the world. One thing she reported struck me as a prime example of Supervisor McCarthy's sick thinking. While Helen was interviewing McCarthy, he pointed to his dog and said, "I could murder Mother Teresa, and that dog would still love me." There are people who are so diseased, that they do not deserve to own a dog.

[hlthe2b]

88. Yes indeed...

That certainly underscores the point.

[Abq_Sarah]

93. Vick "changed" because he got caught

If not, he'd still be torturing animals.

[H2O Man]

94. Likely true,

though of no significance.

[TBF]

58. What year was the training camp? Sorry, I have zero tolerance for abuse

of animals and children. YMMV.

[H2O Man]

62. The last one.

I am strongly opposed to abuse, as well.

[LanternWaste]

55. Expressing an opinion about his proclivities in dog-fighting...

Expressing an opinion about his proclivities in dog-fighting is the equivalent of being on his back...?

Does the corollary hold true also...? Is expressing a positive opinion of him also being on his back. or does that simply apply to opinions you don't agree with?

[Deep13]

2. Don't care. nt

[davepc]

3. At long as he and the Eagles lose this Sunday...whatever.

[xchrom]

4. I think he's scum - but it doesn't matter.

He's got a good job and fat paycheck - it'll never matter what I think.

[demmiblue]

5. Low-life piece of fecal matter. n/t

[Mira]

6. Not being interested in sports I had no opinion - I left it to the courts - until

I saw a photo of one of his mauled dogs.
Now I, quite frankly, don't want to even hear his name ever again and worse.

[rucky]

7. Time will tell.

But if we want the justice system to work for rehabilitation, we have to give people a chance when they get out.

[Kalyke]

110. It does work for many, but there are some types of crimes whose

participants can't be cured.

Pedophilia has a high recidivism rate and so does animal abuse.

And, FWIW, pedophilia and serial killing nearly always start with animal abuse.

We have to recognize that sometimes people are too far gone for us to help and try to prevent this in the future.

[maxrandb]

8. One of the best protest signs I ever saw

"Hide your Beagle - Visk's an Eagle"

Yes, he has paid his debt to society. Have no problem with folks wanting to vote him to the pro-bowl, but if you look at his stats, he can't hold Tom Brady's jock-strap.

I'm more concerned that he is now petitioning to be allowed to own a dog. I think a condition of his parole/probation was that he was not allowed to have dogs. Maybe he thinks that since the fans love him so much he can go back to his old ways. Who knows? But, having seen the absolute cruelty and "inhumanity" he displayed to defenseless animals, I'm not ready to just "forget".

[Kalyke]

112. Who fans know best!

[Obamanaut]

9. Other than the saying "He made a mistake", I don't care all that much

about him playing.

He *chose* to engage in the torture of animals. He did not mistakenly take the wrong turnoff from an interstate, or use the wrong fork at dinner, or wear mismatched socks - those are mistakes.

He chose, he did not make a mistake.

[sinkingfeeling]

10. I think he's disgusting. He can win football greatness and a ton of money, but he's still the lowest

of lows.

[ET Awful]

12. Playing football well doesn't equal rehabilitation. He played well before he got

caught torturing and killing animals who didn't fight other animals to his satisfaction.

He's a piece of filth.

[bemildred]

13. Never heard of him. nt

[LatteLibertine]

17. I would have hit him with a large fine

that I would have turned around and donated to something like the SPCA. I also would have made his sentence working on behalf of abused animals.

[Lisa0825]

18. His "rehabilitation" is all PR, not sincere.

If he was sincere, he'd have contacted the people who rehabbed his surviving dogs, instead of just doing a song and dance for goodwill with HSUS.

He's a horrible excuse for a human being.

Yes, he paid his LEGAL dues and therefore he has his freedom. But no, he has not paid his moral dues. I don't think he truly has a conscience anyway.

[NightWatcher]

19. He's a good scrambler and has pocket presence.

"high enough price"? He did more time than some murders. He did his time and people need to accept this. What he did was horrible, but he's paid his debt.

[Kalyke]

111. He's a murderer.

Regardless of what you may think, maybe murderers should pay more time. Ya think?

[hlthe2b]

20. He is scum. Those that fawn over him because ....

they want to be entertained, speak to the worst of our societal woes-- the ready ability to ignore heinous acts if the person is beautiful, rich, famous, or has athletic talents. That is my opinion. I speak for those who can not.

[pipi_k]

21. On the fence...

I saw him doing an interview with someone recently. He seemed sincere.

OTOH, as an animal lover, I still can't get past what he did.

Now we hear he wants a dog. Ummmm.....NO.

Cat. Hamster. Goldfish. Parrot.

If he wants a pet, there are lots of other kinds.

Even "Foo Pets" (which I play with online each day myself).

But no dogs. I just have a feeling he wouldn't settle for a mellowed-out Black Lab or a little lap dog. He would probably want a pit bull. Something he could train to be a guard dog.

I vote "no".


PS...I'm trying to forgive him, and I know he's paid his debt to society and all, but...well...I'd rather see him start out working in a public setting with dogs first. Or maybe taking in foster dogs that will be monitored by an agency before going out to permanent homes. I considered doing that after my three old girls died, but I knew that I couldn't foster a dog without wanting to keep it. I just fall in love with them too fast...

[Withywindle]

95. No. No animals of any kind.

Rehabilitation isn't JUST about the offender and his personal growth. It's also about the importance of keeping potential future victims safe. The animals you listed are smaller and more defenseless even than dogs. Offenders of a sadistic type usually have a temptation to re-offend because of the 'high' they get; there's an addiction-related process involved. Why tempt him, and risk another creature's life?

BTW, some researchers put the intelligence of parrots at least on par with that of chimpanzees. Some species can live to 70 years, and they learn a lot over the course of that long lifetime. They have a complex social structure, and need stimulation and bonding. They can be demanding and noisy. They are also very physically fragile when compared to a human. It takes a lot of responsibility and humility to be a good parrot owner. Still want to give him one?

[baldguy]

23. His "rehabilitation" does not assuage his guilt.

[roody]

25. My dog hates him.

[Hepburn]

27. Your dog and mine, too. n/t

[Kalyke]

113. My dogs won't even look at him.

Mainly because he's not allowed on T.V. in my house.

But, hey, if you're of a mind, vote for my rescue for Christmas Dog if you're on FB: http://wildfireapp.com/website/6/contests/76298/voteable_entries/13019169

[roody]

120. I voted for your cutie.

[Hepburn]

26. Motherfucking, no good, asshole, evil piece of shit...

...and those are his good points.

:grr:

[ileus]

29. I sure hope he makes it to the Super Bowl...

[Iggo]

31. Too soon to tell.

Bad taste right now.

However, it took him a long time to do the damage he did, so how about I give him some time to make up for it.

He better get busy, though...

[Le Taz Hot]

32. The last time I answered that question

on DU I was accused of racism. Let's just say I'm an animal lover and I don't like anyone who is mean to animals.

[hamsterjill]

33. I think he is damn lucky to have a job

I think he is damn lucky to have been allowed to play again in the NFL, and have the income that he does. Most convicted felons do not have fame and glory waiting for them when they get out.

That said, I am glad that Michael Vick is using his days off to speak against dogfighting. He can continue to do that for the rest of his life, as far as I am concerned. But he's still scum in my book and probably always will be.

Playing football well does NOT necessarily make someone a good person. And I do not believe for one minute that all of this "remorse" is anything but a publicity stunt so that he might regain some endorsements, etc. You want my forgiveness, Michael? Then you go spend a month at Best Friends cleaning cages, etc. You pay back all of the money that has been spent (donated by others with a helluva lot less money than you!) taking care of the dogs that you savaged, you go to each and every person who adopted one of the dogs that you savaged and personally apologize, and you keep up the publicity stunts with the HSUS. After a decade or so of this, then I might think about "forgiveness".

[FLPanhandle]

34. I think he should have had half his contract given to the Humane Society

As a condition for returning to the NFL.

[pipi_k]

36. Great idea, IMO...

At least until his probation was over, anyway.

We might have seen his true character.

How sorry he was...

[superduperfarleft]

38. No, he should've given it to Best Friends, who are still caring for the dogs

that were rescued from his kennel.

If you mean Humane Society of the US (HSUS), they don't need the cash from him, they've already got enough suckers sending them donations and keeping Wayne Pacelle in nice suits.

[TBF]

60. Couldn't agree more - I donate more to Best Friends than any other

animal group (and have for years). After Wayne's pandering he will never get another penny from me.

[superduperfarleft]

66. HSUS lost me long before Vick, that was just icing on the cake. n/t

[JoePhilly]

35. He seems to bring out the worst in some on DU ...

At times DU is pretty compassionate to felons, murders, those trying to return to society after being in prison.

Not Vick.

As for his rehabilitation ... much to soon to know.

I follow the eagles, and I know he regularly goes out to schools to talk to kids about what he did, why it was wrong, why he went to jail, how he lost everything, and how he's trying to get his life back on track. Which seems like a good start.

But its still too early to tell.

[stuntcat]

37. I don't forgive

the suffering he caused to some beings was worse than Hell. Certain kindsa people I write off forever, easy.

[AndrewP]

41. I don't go out of my way to pay attention to it.

He can fuck off.

[HuckleB]

43. Does anyone watch the Pro Bowl?

:shrug:

[blueamy66]

44. He's an asshole

and shouldn't be allowed to play in the NFL.

[flvegan]

47. Remorseless for what he did to all those dogs.

Every time time I see him get hit hard on the field, I smile.

He's a talented football player, I can admit that. He's a shitty, soulless person in every other way though.

[Robyn66]

48. He is a piece of shit

that should never be allowed within 10 miles of a dog and never should have been allowed to play football. I dont care if he paid his "debt to society" he is in the same category as domestic abusers and child molesters they cant be cured in my opinion and so you need to keep them away from the innocent. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it.

[TBF]

63. FWIW I agree with you. The hero worship of this monster is appalling to me. nt

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

49. Boy do I feel sorry for you. I went down this road a few weeks ago and got

totally lambasted for it. Watch out for the tomatoes! :)

[KamaAina]

50. Captain of the All-Douchebag Team

with a stellar receiving corps including Terrell Owens, Chad Ochocinco, and Vick's own teammate DeSean Jackson, they'll have a potent offense indeed. And if anything should happen to Vick, they have Brett Favre as backup. :eyes:

[immoderate]

52. He's a US citizen. Served his time. Should have all his rights.

I don't have to be his friend though.

--imm

[stevenleser]

54. I tend to agree. Once you are found guilty and do your time per the criminal justice system

then you should not have any restrictions after that. We can consider the amount of time insufficient, but then we need to change the law. I am not in favor of continuing punishments against any kind of offender past what their sentence is.

[immoderate]

57. Yeah. It's like a "second class" citizenship.

No place for that in a democracy.

--imm

[Withywindle]

65. Vick isn't being legally restricted from doing *anything.*

(Except having a dog, but that IS part of his sentence). He has his old job back. He's got fans and defenders. There is only one way that he's being significantly still punished, and that's the way a lot of people hate him now.

Well, that happens when you're a public figure and part of your success depends on the esteem of the public. If you do something terrible that makes you lose that respect, respect is not part of the criminal justice system. It's not the government doing it. It's individual people, who have the rights to their own opinion and don't OWE you their respect, their fandom, their forgiveness, or their money.

They gave him that esteem once, of their own free will (he was never OWED it), and getting respect back once you've blown it in a hideous fashion is always much, much more difficult than earning it in the first place. That's life. That's the way people are. It's not an injustice.

[stevenleser]

71. Well, I think we were responding to the ideas/questions pondered in the OP n/t

[Withywindle]

73. Well, OK, but my point is that there's a difference between having paid a debt

to society in a legal sense, and having done so in the eyes of the public. Obviously Vick has not done anywhere near enough to redeem himself in the eyes of a lot of the public, including me.

I resent the fact he's rich and famous again when there are plenty of ex-cons out there who have done things far, far less horrible who have trouble getting even menial jobs. But there's always been two sets of laws: one for the rich and one for the rest of us, so that's nothing new. It just aggravates my cynicism.

[stevenleser]

76. Well, in this case it isn't so much that Vick is/was Rich, in fact...

I think he had a negative net worth after the jail sentence. He was just someone with an exceptional ability from which people knew they could make a lot of money.

It makes me extremely angry what happens to ex cons from both a selfish perspective and an empathic one. The selfish perspective is, if these guys cannot make a decent living legally, they are going to reoffend and me or my family might be caught in the way when they do. That does not make any sense to me.

[Withywindle]

92. The nature of the crime also makes a BIG difference in public perception

which is what a lot of his defenders aren't acknowledging.

A lot of people feel a visceral horrific revulsion at what he did. High Octane Nightmare Fuel. If he'd been caught with lots of cocaine, or stolen a car, or something like that, I don't think we'd be having this discussion, because I don't think anyone would care as much. But there's something about brutal sadism for fun that really upsets people, and I don't think that's misplaced.

You bet I believe in rehabilitation and forgiveness for non-violent offenders, and maybe a few violent ones as well depending on circumstances. But there are some kinds of crimes that, yeah, I'm never going to trust you or like you if you were capable of something like that. Ever. It's a small category, but it's an intense one, and it's the ones that involve getting pleasure from destroying helpless victims.

[TBF]

59. Should he? Should we allow convicted pedophiles to adopt children?

They served their time after all.

[immoderate]

67. Once, after a vicious subway stabbing, the NY mayor called for stricter gun laws.

They should have life, liberty, property, a vote, a job. I wouldn't give a kid to a convicted pedophile, or a rapist, murderer, extortionist or chiropractor.

Just kidding about the chiropractor. :D

testing the limits is a useful mind experiment. Then there is reality.

--imm

[TBF]

69. Some value humans more than animals. In general I don't -

and I have zero tolerance for abuse of children and animals. I would no more give a dog to a past abusive owner than I would a child to a pedophile. Obviously others disagree, but that is how I feel about it.

[immoderate]

70. I wouldn't give him my dog.

Though equally valued, humans and animals are different. I can conceive of people who may nurture animals well, and should not raise children.

If it could be ascertained that Vick would treat it properly, there are lots of dogs that need adoption. The issue to me is the welfare of the dog, not punishing Vick further.

--imm

[TBF]

75. Of course there are "lots of dogs that need adoption" - but if you are really

concerned about "the welfare of the dog" why on earth would you give it to someone with a history of abuse, torture, and killing? This has nothing to do with "punishing Vick further" - it is looking out for victims' rights (and potential victims' rights). I wouldn't let a convicted child molester adopt a child either, no matter how many children "need adoption".

[immoderate]

81. That's why I said "if."

Is it a psychological compulsion or a matter of education and rehabilitation? Family, support systems could all matter. Can his kid have a dog? I'm uneasy with the idea that people "automatically" lose their rights. I'm not advocating that he get a dog.

--imm

[TBF]

83. In this case he should "automatically lose" his rights. If family and support systems

"could all matter" then where were those folks when he was abusing, torturing and killing the other dogs he had?

Sometimes people do something bad enough that it can't be fixed or "rehabilitated". The Pitt Bulls who lived are scarred forever both physically and emotionally. Those he tortured and killed are gone FOREVER. Should Michael Vick "automatically" lose his rights? Damned right he should, given that particular history.


http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTckYOFLR4dQqeFwnzwtzcRbuDT2OAAnHXRL17VM_ZiI0OfKUdm
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQmmNPWKqLAz6rMyqx5KXb0-YY-YTKu9efdHFvqZnbuugMihZbBQA

Do the VICTIMS of the crimes - the dogs - get another chance? You bet they do, and I donated money to Best Friends along with many others to help in that effort.
Does the CRIMINAL who brutalized and killed many of their peers get another chance? No. Absolutely not.

[Withywindle]

99. I'm one of these people, I think

I can conceive of people who may nurture animals well, and should not raise children.


I've chosen not to have children because I really do not think it is in me to be a good mother. I'm too introverted, too fond of solitude and silence, and children are too noisy. Also, I've never wanted to, so it's no great loss to me, and I really think parenthood is something that should never be attempted by or forced upon anyone who doesn't want it.

I do think I'm a pretty good crazy cat lady, though. I only have one at the moment, and I adopted her from a shelter, and they put me through a pretty rigorous process to get her. A detailed questionnaire about my knowledge of cat care and cat behavior and the expenses I expected to pay over her lifetime. References from my landlord, to make sure I was allowed to have a pet. References from vets who treated past cats of mine, to make sure I never abused or neglected one. Criminal background check, to make sure I had no history of abuse or violence. (They did not check my credit--thank goddess--but they do have a practice of giving everyone business cards for a clinic that does low-income vet care, just in case. They are not in any way against poor people having pets--just irresponsible, cruel, or dishonest people.)

I approve of this. I know there are millions of animals who need homes--but still, I think the consequences of relaxing standards can be so catastrophic for the animals that screening is worthwhile. The shelter workers have to be able to look at themselves in the mirror, too, after all!

Vick could not have passed the test.

[stevenleser]

74. I think you are asking the wrong question.

IMHO, pedophiles should have life sentences (part jail and part sanitarium) and that is how it should be handled.

Otherwise, unfortunately, I think if we have a sentence and then engage in penalties after that, we are in direct conflict with the constitution and various amendments.

[TBF]

77. Agree - and I would include animal abusers in the "part jail part sanitarium" lifetime sentencing.

nt

[TwilightGardener]

61. Sick fuck, deserves to be shunned by society.

[JustAnotherGen]

64. I resent the fact

That someone who throws a ball around, runs around with a ball, etc. etc. in a lot of padding is such a big deal. Between that, Miley and the Bong, and whether TomKat is staying married or not I'm beginning to think we are becoming the dumbest country on the planet. :rofl:

[OmahaBlueDog]

103. They are a big deal for a simple reason - they sell a lot of stuff. You don't.

Love him or hate him, millions of people tune in every week to watch Mike Vick throw a ball or Hannah Montana wrestle with whether or not to give up the wig. With Vick, those NFL games have countless commercials for cars, beer, apparel, and pharmaceuticals. With Miley, it's Disney selling music and HM branded toys and clothes, and Wal-Mart selling Miley Cyrus apparel.

It's not dumb...it's America. There is one measure of your intelligence and value as a person -- how much have you got in the bank?

[JustAnotherGen]

117. I work for Verizon Wireless

Not afraid to put that out there . . . Marketing at HQ. . .

So it's sort of like how we (all electronics, networks, OEMS and ODMS) convince people they need stuff they don't need because we said so and people are convinced to think it's super sexy cool to have more stuff, so they can be in more debt, so they can work harder . . . :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

My comments are more along the lines of: I make really good money convincing people they need to upgrade to a Droid Pro from a Bold just because they MIGHT want to play bubble burst on their next trip to Japan! :rofl: Schmucks - myself included! :rofl:

[MrSlayer]

68. Love what he's doing on the field for my team, hate him otherwise.

He's playing some great football but that doesn't mean he's "redeemed" or "reformed" or any of that shit. He's saying all the right things and doing all the right things in order to get paid.

[ceile]

72. I "resent" anything. But I think it was wrong for the NFL

to let him play again.

[TexasObserver]

78. Great rehabilitation story.

If he wasn't black, he'd never have served time.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Alamuti Lotus]

79. Truly phenominal and imminently entertaining football player, bit of an asshole off the field

The former should matter most in this case, though the latter is not unimportant

[Raine]

80. He's Piece of Shit nt

[Forkboy]

82. About 30%.

Signed,
His agent.

[Kaleva]

84. Like many an artist, actor, musician, or pro athlete.....

I can enjoy or appreciate ones work while not thinking highly of their offstage or off field life.

[tabasco]

89. Total piece of shit

I hope I make myself clear.

[lunatica]

91. The only thing I care about is that there should never be any animals near him

What he does otherwise is none of my concern. But I don't believe for one nanosecond that he suddenly found love for dogs, and now he's whining because he can't have one. He just wants his old life back just the way it was. He liked it.

[Withywindle]

96. That's about where I'm at nowadays.

I appreciate that he's good at what he does and people appreciate that. Whatever. It's over. As long as he has no dogs now and never will again, it's over. But he should NEVER be allowed anywhere near an animal of any kind without strong supervision ever again.

It's kind of like the way I think Roman Polanski really did deserve the Best Director Oscar for 'The Pianist', cause that really was a great film, and yet I also think he's a loathsome excuse for a human being who should never ever ever EVER be left alone with any female person of any age who isn't packing heat.

Would you let Polanski babysit a tweenage girl? Hell no, I should hope not. Do you have any sympathy for his mewlings about how he's a better person now? I don't.* That's how I feel about Vick and dogs. Let him play, let the fans boo or cheer as they please, let him whimper until the media gets bored with him and his physical skill fades, hope he invests more wisely in the future--and stick to that provision in his sentence about no more dogs ever again.


*although, when it comes to bad-background-trauma as an excuse, it's hard to beat Polanski's.

[WiffenPoof]

97. Well...One Thing

....I know for sure. Regardless of how long he plays or how long he lives, what he did will follow him for the rest of his days.

He will always be known as the person that tortured animals and killed them. I don't know if he has been punished enough. However, a lifetime of the stigma for what he did is a pretty hefty price in and of itself.

-PLA

[MilesColtrane]

98. Put me down for, "didn't pay a high enough price".

[elana i am]

100. still a lowlife scum

animal abuse is part of sociopathy.

the lack of remorse and the fact that he thinks he should be able to have a dog again tells me he's a fucking sociopath. he shouldn't be allowed near his own children let alone another dog.

[CitizenLeft]

101. I don't care one way or another about his football career.

Yes, he "did his time" - but that doesn't mean that suddenly he should be embraced by society and declared "rehabilitated." Did he receive psychological evaluation for what he did to those dogs? (that's a question, I don't know) Just because he can mouth "I'm sorry" doesn't mean bat squeeze. Is that all that's required of him for us to forget what he did? Hell no. Let him have his career, his money, his fame. But to me he will forever be a sadistic torturer of animals. Anybody who would electrocute an animal, slam a dog against a wall until their brains splattered, and beat them for not being as vicious as he is, doesn't deserve sympathy or forgiveness, especially if he hasn't even bothered to contact that organization about the dogs he maimed for life. That shows the depth of his "rehabilitation."

[OmahaBlueDog]

105. Everybody who believes that should have made the NFL pay a higher price for bringing Vick back

I'm not necessarily saying don't bring him back. I'm saying that massive amounts of community service should have been a condition of his reemployment.

[CitizenLeft]

118. I'll go along with that.

[Lucian]

102. I'd consider him okay once the dogs he tortured let loose on his face...

and the rest of his body. Once they get their justice, I'll be satisfied.

He shouldn't have been allowed back in the NFL, IMO.

[Stevenmarc]

108. He's a douchebag that has a good PR team.

[OmahaBlueDog]

109. Mike VIck is pissed that the law won't let him have a dog for his kid? Guess what????

My family is pissed at me because my doctor said I can't have a dog. Mike - cry me a friggin' river. Man up. Tell your kids they can't have a dog because daddy fucked up.

Mistakes.have.consequences. You did time. I respect that. You need to do more than that before I'd even maybe consider letting a dog into your house. Try this for starters: stroke a check for a million bucks to the SPCA, and do radio and TV PSAs in which you admit fault and condemn mistreatment of animals.

[fishwax]

115. I hope that his change is genuine and not merely for PR

I don't have any real way to know for sure, and I don't quite care enough to get heated about it one way or the other. I understand why other people do.

Were it up to me, people who commit the crimes that he did would spend more than two years in prison. But, at the same time, I do believe that rehabilitation is possible and that people can change, and I hope that's happened in this case.

[Lugnut]

116. He's a POS. n/t

[lonestarnot]

122. Ugh, he's a dick.

[robcon]

124. I think he has turned himself around. An admirable story.

n/t