They're literally insane. And worse yet, there are a ton of them

[TeamsterDem]

Folks I'm scared.

I've always liked political discussions. But lately I find myself running into not just arguments with which I don't agree (that's perfectly fine), but instead arguments that not only make no sense but which also truly suggest insanity. There's the article another DU'er reposted from WND where some idiot claims having more white babies would cure the economy: Talk about racism combined with absolute nonsense (not that there's a difference). There are the ones who're so pissed off at the banks for their malfeasance who then want to elect Ron Paul, the regulation-gutting guy: Talk about not seeing what's right in front of you. There are the birthers. The graders (they want to see Obama's grades from his universities). There are the Herman Cain types who insist the Republicans are fair-minded about race yet who are then inexplicably surprised that Rick Perry, a front-runner in their ostensibly "fair-minded" party, had a camp named ... I actually don't want to repeat the name. And there are the lovely intellects who want to strip all government regulations AND reduce tax rates FURTHER on the rich because, as we've been told each time we did that (to no avail), THIS TIME it will create jobs.

I remember a time in the not-too-distant past where political discussions - while always lively - never had this sort of abject nonsense interjected. And if it did, even the moderates on the OTHER SIDE would tamp most of it down. But nowadays this crap is somehow, beyond all rationality, "mainstream." Just what the hell has happened in this country?

A great example is a gentleman with whom I discussed politics the other day. While telling me that we should dismantle the Department of Education (a la Ron Paul), he quoted some article from some never-heard-of website as his evidence to which I asked the seemingly obvious: "You're aware that's not really evidence given that it's not peer-reviewed or even subject to an editor, right? And do you think it's maybe a little hypocritical to speak so broadly about education while seemingly not understanding that in no academic setting of any kind could you present such support given its lack of credibility?" To both I was told this was the "elites" trying to stop "critical thinking," whatever that means.

We may be screwed. I've never felt so embarrassed of my fellow Americans as I do lately. Nor have I been this fearful that the psychos will soon be running the place.

[onethatcares]

1. not only are there a ton of them

they come out of the woodwork when you question their claims.

Example: I was told the OWS folks shouldn't break the law when protesting and should just go with the flow. When I asked if the founding fathers broke the law or acted illegally, I'm told that was different.

The social security discussions are hilarious but at the same time make me want to pull my hair out (what's left of it anyway)

[TeamsterDem]

28. I'm right there with ya

Their arguments are so incredibly inductive and fact free that sometimes it's hard to form a cogent response. I mean, for example, if you were walking down the street and someone ran up to you and yelled "purple oxygen garage rocket" it would take a few seconds to both try and figure that nonsense out and then attempt a response. That's how I feel when I talk to these oddballs. You present facts, they say your facts don't matter (or are somehow "different" or otherwise inadmissible), and then they proceed into lengthy diatribes filled with only the most dubious supporting "facts," syllogisms, enthymemes, and other oddities with which you're almost forced to simply scratch your head in amazement.

It's truly getting to the point where I wonder if it's salvageable. I never give up hope but it is getting scary out there.

[LuvNewcastle]

2. Americans know little about their own history.

They put forth these ideas about reducing taxes and the power of the government to regulate as if these are new ideas. We tried it that way for a very long time and the country went through panics and depressions over and over again. There were a few rich people who controlled the country, busting unions and killing strikers and using child labor. People were ignorant and lived hand-to-mouth. FDR and the Democratic Party brought stability to the economy, better opportunities in work and education, and a standard of living for the common man that was the envy of the world. Now people want to roll back all the reforms of that era and take us back to the social darwinist dark ages of this country's past. These people make me very frustrated and angry and I'm losing hope in this country. The only good thing I'm seeing today are the people who are getting involved with the OWS protests. People had better educate themselves very quickly or it's going to be too late.

[Bloke 32]

3. Every country has nutters

The key difference is that yours are scads more intense.

[leftyladyfrommo]

4. Do you think?

Britain has had some real doozies, too.

We do have a history of very rugged individualism - mountain men, for instance. Maybe we had more of a tolerance for groups that formed way outside the norm. Like the State of Utah.

In reality, I don't really run into very many of the extreme people very often. And I live in the Bible Belt. We do have a lot of very conservative people here but their actual lifestyles aren't that extreme.

We just never talk religion.

[geckosfeet]

10. I wouldn't hold up the country's history of tolerance as an ideal. I see duality at best.

Increasing calls for 'dealing with' immigrants. 'Wars' on countries that never attacked out country. Economic policies of terror as a matter of course.

Along with the conservative ideal comes the expectation of rigid conformity - not tolerance for outside groups.

Not to discount your experience, but history suggests that the US legitimizes extreme conservatives in manner similar to the way that Europe (and GB) legitimizes extreme liberals.

[leftyladyfrommo]

23. I don't think most of our liberals are very extreme.

To me they just seem kind of moderate. I guess that's because the conservatives seem way more extreme to me.

Aren't British animal rights activists pretty extreme? We have some but I don't think they come close to yours.

I personally don't like the lack of tolerance for people who are outside the "norm." I like eccentrics. Britain is kind of known for it's eccentrics. I always thought that was a very good thing.

[geckosfeet]

45. Yes. If I had to boil it down to a sound bite, the US tends to legitimize conservative

extremism while Europe and GB tend to legitimize liberal extremism.

As far as tolerance for eccentrics - I think that there is a lot of regional variation. New York city tends to tolerate a wide array of diversity. Small upstate or mid-western or southern towns - not so much. Not so sure about Britain/Europe but I would suspect similar patterns of tolerance.

[Tesha]

9. Another difference is that many of ours are in charge!

Of the government, of media, of corporations, etc...

Tesha

[leftyladyfrommo]

24. We have the governor of Kansas - he's pretty extreme to the right.

I think a whole lot of Kansans are pretty sick of him.

[Katashi_itto]

14. More intense and more of them. We are letting the crazies

destroy the country. The Romans had barbarians. We bred our own.

[ThoughtCriminal]

42. You might have more per Acre

but we seem to have more per population. Visit a western U.S. red state (ie Wyoming) to see what I mean.

[eilen]

5. No lie, 2008 election season

MIL came to visit. Her ultimate argument against Obama? He's the Anti-Christ. No shit. And she is not even religious. My husband and I gave each other a look then decided there was no point. We basically treated her like she was an unbalanced mental patient after that, talk her down off the ledge, offer refreshments, suggest she lie down and get some rest, etc.

[CoffeeCat]

6. It has taken a while...

...but the neocon corporatists who now own our politicians--have spent YEARS cultivating the result we
see now.

I warned everyone around Rush Limbaugh in the early 1990's. Everyone laughed it off. Why, he was
an entertainer...a harmless blowhard! It was obvious that the powers that be needed to attract idiots
to their cause and get them to vote. Right-wing radio--totally fueled by the corporatists has validated
the crazy people and made them feel as if they had a voice.

Used to be--these people were ashamed to reveal how loony they really are. But Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh
and Sean Hannity have emboldened these nutjobs. They've taken their 'crazy' and validated it--but then they've
added on some stipulations. We'll validate you--but you need to believe in tax breaks for the rich, corporate
personhood and bank bailouts for criminals who would just as soon step on you, then walk around you.

The ring-wing lunatics have been brainwashed into voting for and defending Fascism. It's that simple. In return,
these freaks, who used to be ashamed of their obvious idiocy--are made to feel all warm and fuzzy.

It's a sick, codependent cult. By now, they're so entrenched that they can't reason with anyone. Because now, if
they admit that the banks are criminals who stole their money--or that Bush lied to them about the Iraq war--then
that means they're just the loony, ashamed freaks that they've always been. Their egos are tied to their ridiculous
beliefs now.

I feel your pain, man. I had an argument after the housing implosion with a tea bagger. He droned on and on about how the
implosion meant that we needed to further deregulate the banks. Seriously. Stupid like that makes my dendrites twist
into knots. It's seriously sad and it's seriously pathological. I really don't know how we combat it.

[lindysalsagal]

32. You've put your finger on alot of it. Amazing post.

What coffeeCat said.

[TeamsterDem]

34. Yours really is a great post

You've said what I felt yet lacked the words to say.

That's exactly my concern. I mean, they just keep putting the batshit crazy out there and we - because we always knew better - just sort of ignored it because you really can't (and shouldn't) debate with a moron for fear of onlookers not knowing which is which. But sadly that translated into people buying into the bs, and now we have to combat what we really shouldn't have to. I don't know where we go from here or how we get there. It's really very scary.

[BR_Parkway]

7. I wound up in a discussion on a friend's Facebook page with some idiot

on his friend's list about how the Community Reinvestment Act was all to blame for our current economic mess. No matter what I or the others posted to refute it, this guy was wedded into his idea and there was no divorce in sight. He kept responding with these various RW opinion pieces to everyone else's facts, scientific studies, etc. They've gotten brainwashed in ways we've never seen, on a scale we've never seen in our lifetime - and you're right, it's scary as hell. If violence doesn't come before the election, its certain to afterwards if these people lose

[mwb970]

8. We have the dumbest citizenry in the world.

Simply making sense is obviously too big a challenge for many of today's Americans: they're fat, stupid, and republican.

[HereSince1628]

11. This is devoid of evidence of mental illness.

What it is at best is name calling. Which is peculiar considering the O.P. actually objects to name calling at about sentence 5 in the first para. Bad arguments, bad logic, and unreliable information do not establish the presence of mental illness.

Moreover, name calling doesn't produce proper argumentation anymore than a bad logic, or faulty evidence. What name-calling does is establish a dialectic in which the speaker and his in-group is better than the target group of his/her stereotyped disparaging.

It is an attempt to establish the speaker and the speaker's in-group as better than the out group which in the mind of the speaker has a defect as a defining characteristic. When a speaker/writer uses mentally illness as the defect the implication is that the mentally ill aren't as good as the members of 'we/us.' Once a group isn't as good as 'we/us' it's possible for our group to establish any manner of insult, prejudice and harm upon it. This is how ostracizing works.

And by only the weight of it's common but wrongheaded repetition the thoughtless name-calling in this posts drops a few more grams onto the tonnes of misunderstanding and bigotry that burden the mentally ill in our society and on DU.

[Brickbat]

13. Bam. +1.

[A wise Man]

20. What the hell are you talking about "FRAZIER"?????

[Occulus]

25. Oh PLEASE

WHY is it that the moment someone frames an argument effectively, some DUers are all too happy to pounce on it, deconstruct it, defeat it, and tell us how bad we are for framing it such?

They're crazy as shithouse rats. Nuts. Off their fucking rockers. Dumb as a bag of hammers. And exceedingly dangerous as a political force.

Forest. Trees. See 'em.

[HereSince1628]

26. Thanks for asking...

The "why" is because of the need to end demonizing of the mentally ill, including ending the stigmatizing and discrimination that subjects the mentally ill to irrational and harmful consequences of stigma.

Nationally three strategies have been identified as keys to counter stigma toward the mentally ill:

1) Aggressive rebuttal of uninformed stigmatization of people with mental illness. This includes pointing out disrespectful language, and the misuse of terms like fruitcake, nut case, freak, crazy and lunatic, etc. to influence arguments. (My above reply fell into this category, pointing out the logical fallacy of verbal attacks using unwarranted claims of mental illness as a derogatory chauvinistic rhetorical ploy.)

2) Education of the public about mental illness including how pervasive social stigma misleads many of us into unwarranted fear of mental illness and discrimination against the mentally ill.

3) Promotion of the concept of recovery. Awareness of good outcomes from treatment promotes help seeking for the mentally ill.

[TeamsterDem]

27. Oh God. How ridiculous

I wasn't "demonizing" the mentally ill. I was simply pointing out that people who either refuse to see reality or those who choose approaches to things which have already been tried and FAILED are better classified as mentally ill than as sane, rational ideological opponents. And the point of my post is that there seems to be a lot of that, whatever you or anyone else may want to call it.

Just because someone spots a form of mental illness doesn't mean that they're saying the person suffering from it is "bad" or "evil." Simply acknowledging an illness isn't an admission of anything other than an illness. But just as I wouldn't want someone who betrayed all of the symptoms of psychosis being a police officer or even in possession of a firearm, I similarly don't think it's healthy for our democracy that such a considerable contingent of Americans seem to share some sort of a mental incapacity which quite obviously distorts their perceptions beyond the reasonable and encourages them to vote in ways which counter reality and screw the country. That you selectively chose to ignore my point says more about you than it does about anything else.

Seriously, dude or dudette, buy a sense of humor. Try to understand that not everyone is "attacking" you or whatever cause for which you're presuming to speak.

[HereSince1628]

35. It may seem true, but then what is truth but what we want it to be?

As in all taxonomies, the capacity to accurately identify and classify is highly dependent upon the presence of requisite characteristics and capacities of the classifier.

To wit,

I encourage you to explore the literature about the historical use of psychiatry to imprison political opponents in mental hospitals. Perhaps a library near you has a copy of "The Political Economy of Dictatorship" By Ronald Wintrobe.

I also encourage you to consider using one or more terms from the following short list of effective derogatory adjectives to describe political opponents and their statements without necessity of allusions to mental illness.

Absurd
Astonishing
Bizarre
Comical
Contemptible
Deplorable
Derisory
Disgraceful
Eccentric
Embarrassing
Extraordinary
Extreme
Fanatical
Fantasy/Fantastic
Farcical
Far-fetched
Feeble
Foolish
Groundless
Hilarious
Ignorant
Illogical
Implausible
Inadequate
Inconceivable
Incredible
Injudicious
Irrational
Laughable
Ludicrous
Mind-boggling
Nonsensical
Obtuse
Outlandish
Outrageous
Pathetic
Peculiar
Pitiful
Preposterous
Ridiculous
Senseless
Strange
Unbelievable
Uninformed
Unfounded
Unreal
Useless
Wild

[TeamsterDem]

37. Wow, taking this just a bit beyond reasonable bounds, aren'cha?

Look, when one cannot comprehend provable, visible facts, those people are almost always called - in some form or variation hereof - insane. And rightfully so. The exact clinical diagnosis depends on the degree and extent of the delusion, but seeing things which ain't there without the aid of hallucinogens OR completely failing to draw rational conclusions from that which is staring straight at ya is clearly a mental competency issue, try as you might to make it something else. It could be called "stupidity," but when the violations of rationality are this broad and extreme, that term ceases to cover the scope of the problem.

If you told me that it was daytime outside (and it in fact was), but I began arguing that really it wasn't daytime, that you were wrong in some strange way, I find it difficult to believe (outside the possibility that I was kidding) that anyone would think I were of sufficient mental capability. But you'd have us believe that it should better be called "outlandish" or "wild" or "implausible," or some other word in your list. Sorry, but I calls 'em as I sees 'em. You can defend it any way you like, but the vast majority see it for what it is. That you don't like that is of course your problem.

I'm not trying to "imprison" or otherwise forcibly incarcerate or punish any of these people. I'm merely saying it's daytime when in fact it is.

[formercia]

39. Take those words away from DU, and it would become a very boring place

Personally, I think the Baggers are dumb as a Bag of Hammers. Sorry if you disagree, but kissy make-up doesn't work too well in the real World.

I didn't attend Charm School, so I'm not responsible for my actions.

[lindysalsagal]

33. The post didn't discuss the mentally ill. I understood it as an exaggeration.

There is main street mental, of which Michelle Bachmann is queen, and there are really truly clinically mentally ill.

I trust everyone on here knows the difference and doesn't wish any more pain on the truly ill. No one here is suggesting they be treated badly. We're hoping the political loonies will wake up to reality, is all.

[HereSince1628]

36. Hyperbole is but a diaphanous adornment of chauvinism used among friends

Which would be mostly the same amount of cover as a group of politically powerful white-guys get for laughing at the racist name of the deer lease they are visiting.

[TeamsterDem]

38. Does this pseudo-intellectual clinical phraseology ever impress anyone?

Or do most people wind up viewing it as some sad individual desperately seeking attention with his big yet misplaced words?

Hyperbole is very rarely chauvinistic in most circles, take the following sentence as a good example: "Man, I'm starving to death." Most of us have said that before, yet almost none of us were actually dying of starvation at the time. It's used for effect, used to grab attention - innocently and without prejudice or chauvinism in the majority of cases. Or do you similarly chastise southerners for their elevated use of hyperbole as in the following gem I once heard on TV: "I'm as happy as a puppy with two peters." You should dispatch a letter immediately to the writers of that line, making sure to borrow as many terms as you can clumsily gather from your online thesaurus, to blast them for their insensitive remarks about puppies. Or peters. Or whatever group you imagine was offended with that line.

Give it a rest, fella. It's beyond sad at this point.

[HereSince1628]

40. When the bully was caught, he was just joking with the gay kid.

[TeamsterDem]

41. Um, okay. Not sure how pointing out that occasionally some people are

assholes somehow makes the argument that hyperbole is always bad, but I guess in your mind one case equals all cases.

[ewagner]

12. "critical thinking"

One of me tea partying friends hits me with this all the time...according to him, I'm "stuck in the left/right paradigm" because I haven't learned "critical thinking".....

There is a pseudo-intellectualism taking hold of our country that is ...dare I say it?....based on ignorance and racism...

frightening indeed.

[A wise Man]

21. I know the difference between right and wrong

just because one may have an opinion of anything doesn't make it right. If one thinks the destruction of a country or the people in it based on an opinion and cheer because of it is INSANE.

[TeamsterDem]

29. Couldn't agree more with that

When you don't agree with their bombast it's somehow *YOU* who fails to "think critically" simply because you do not agree. You become - in their eyes - the "partisan" who's too "blinded" by your "side" of things to see "the truth." Never mind that their evidence comes from the most dubious of websites using only the most questionable logic with then arrives at the most strained of conclusions. It's you who's nuts. LOL

I don't disagree that racism is a part of the problem, although my own opinion is that its just pure ignorance which fuels most of it. Not that ignorance is somehow better or even all that different than racism; I think to be a racist you necessarily have to be ignorant. But my point is that its ignorance of economics, politics, the law, and our constitution which I think is at the heart of most of the problem. But I don't disagree that racism plays a big role, unfortunately.

[fasttense]

15. It's is because our corporate media puts forth these illogical, fact free, arguments.

It use to be if someone argued in favor of less taxes for the rich they would have to support their arguments with facts and truth. Now, they just spout insanity and no one argues against them. It's the new media. Anything goes even out and out lies.

[A wise Man]

16. Hitler did it in the same manner

It takes a crazy person or group to produce craziness. Actually we have been "INVADED BY ALIENS..INHUMANS...PSYCHOPATHS...DEMENTIA CULTS...inside and outside of this blog. No common sense anymore here just craziness. They are called "REPUBLICANS"...NUFF SAID!!!!!!!!

[Bandit]

17. The worse thing IMO is that people such as yourself are Just Now

figuring this out... It has been this way for over a decade now, in fact almost two decades...How else could 2010 have happened so soon after the Bush*/Cheney Administration with total Republican dominance in the Congress and the Extreme Court...And the shape they left America in..

[A wise Man]

18. Right less blame everything

on Obama for what Bush and the Republicans did to this country, and never mention the word Bush in the media about how the crazies drove this country into QUICKSAND.They screwed us for 6yrs. from 2000 to 2006..got thrown out and put back in in 2010 only to finish the job crazier than ever.

[TeamsterDem]

30. I was referring to the voters, not the elected people

It's there where I see the change. The elected, "powerful" folks have been trying to do this for a long time. But my contention is that they've finally succeeded with a large enough segment of the population to where it's becoming dangerous for the republic.

And do I need to suggest where you can stick that condescending attitude of yours which aligns me with the worst among us?

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. Americans think we are not only entitled to our own opinions, but our own facts. n/t

[Festivito]

22. They believe government should execute people and that government can't do anything right.

Tell me there is no disconnect there!

[TeamsterDem]

31. LOL that really is pathetic

I've never thought of it in that light before, but I'll be damned if you're not absolutely right.

:hi: :fistbump:

[Capitalocracy]

44. That's so fundamentally frightening

Apparently human life is worth so little that killing people is the only thing our totally inept government can be trusted to do. But these people still call themselves pro-life, culture of life, and all that. And they love war, too.

:yoiks: :patriot:

[ellisonz]

43. We have met the enemy. They must be educated.